He sounds like a Queen. surprise, surprise.......

Wow, Lat, that was quite a post. Such righteous, quaking, anger! Such a veritable shower of sexual innuendo-analogized prose!

Umm... aren't the 2 comments more or less hearsay?

who was the original lawyer?? Do we know?

I believe the first comment. The 2nd is complete conjecture.

Anonymous, we are not in f...ing court here. This is gossip, not Federal Rules of Evidence. Which do you enjoy more?

Let's see how the trial shakes out. Seems to me S&C adn Charney are all cut of the same cloth really.

Ouch. All this gossip obviously makes ultimate revelation of the true story even more suspenseful. I'm starting to feel bad for all parties, because this story (wherever you believe it begins or ends) has taken on a life of its own, and is demonstratively out of control.

Certainly makes you think of John Scheich ex-President of LeGal a little differently. What if he knew of the withdrawn settlement offer and Charney's greed? Sure, he did not have to engage in the "noisy decline" of representation, but what if he knew of some (read: this) confidential information and didn't want to (further??) partake in the corporate shakedown?

Based When I picture Charney, I think of Anthony from Sex and the City (the bitchy Queen that Charlotte hangs out with) He even looks a little like him from the photo. Anyone with me on this?

well well well: I respectfully disagree. I think that regardless of the merits of the case, Scheich's initial comments were inappropriate and out of turn.

And even if you don't agree that they were (which I think is fair), his comments trying to explain himself afterwards definitely cast serious doubts on (1) his judgment and (2) ability to foster goodwill in the relevant community (i.e. gay lawyers)

hey lat, why don't you call AC and see if he would confirm or deny these stories. nothing about these stories should be confidential S&C.

AC is the best BigLaw flameout in a long time. He has redefined going out with a "bang"

12:44 PM: SO TRUE. Opinionista ain't got nothing on Aaron Charney!

I find all this talk about settlement stuff dubious. Such things are generally confidential, no?

He’s a narcissist. Clearly. And put S&C in a corner — he’s dragged them through the mud and they have no choice but to fight back in one fashion or another. That they decided to sue may turn out to be smart — or maybe not -- but they changed the conversation once they filed their complaint. Good PR move in a bad PR situation.

You think I'm kidding? The one issue S&C really should worry about is it's reputation on law school campuses. With Charney's the only story out there and with the ubiquity of the Internet postings/info/NY Mag story -- this story will have legs for some time. Gay or not, every talented 3L who has an offer from S&C also has an offer from at least several of the following: DPW, CSM, STB, Debevoise, Cleary, etc. -- they HATE to lose out to their competition. So they sued in order to change the focus from S&C's A-hole's to ABC's "misdeeds". Hard to say how it'll play out -- except they needed another side of the story to get out there.

12:45 - Opinionista? She stopped being interesting the day she quit her job....I'm surprised she still posts occasionally.

WOW. David's blog just blew this whole ordeal wide open. I'm so glad David is covering the legal world and look forward to the effects of his "shine a light" influence.

He’s a narcissist. Clearly. And put S&C in a corner — he’s dragged them through the mud and they have no choice but to fight back in one fashion or another. That they decided to sue may turn out to be smart — or maybe not -- but they changed the conversation once they filed their complaint. Good PR move in a bad PR situation.

You think I'm kidding? The one issue S&C really should worry about is it's reputation on law school campuses. With Charney's the only story out there and with the ubiquity of the Internet postings/info/NY Mag story -- this story will have legs for some time. Gay or not, every talented 3L who has an offer from S&C also has an offer from at least several of the following: DPW, CSM, STB, Debevoise, Cleary, etc. -- they HATE to lose out to their competition. So they sued in order to change the focus from S&C's A-hole's to ABC's "misdeeds". Hard to say how it'll play out -- except they needed another side of the story to get out there.

He’s a narcissist. Clearly. And put S&C in a corner — he’s dragged them through the mud and they have no choice but to fight back in one fashion or another. That they decided to sue may turn out to be smart — or maybe not -- but they changed the conversation once they filed their complaint. Good PR move in a bad PR situation.

You think I'm kidding? The one issue S&C really should worry about is it's reputation on law school campuses. With Charney's the only story out there and with the ubiquity of the Internet postings/info/NY Mag story -- this story will have legs for some time. Gay or not, every talented 3L who has an offer from S&C also has an offer from at least several of the following: DPW, CSM, STB, Debevoise, Cleary, etc. -- they HATE to lose out to their competition. So they sued in order to change the focus from S&C's A-hole's to ABC's "misdeeds". Hard to say how it'll play out -- except they needed another side of the story to get out there.

I'm a straight, white, middle-aged, married person, and I don't know AC or any of the parties involved in this lawsuit. AC may be a narcissistic jerk, he may have (briefly) had a fool for a client. None of that means that his claims are false or even exaggerated.

I suspect that he was the victim/recipient of anti-gay harassment and just got sick of it. I've worked at big firms and small firms, in-house and in the government. There are a lot of bigots out there, and anti-gay bigotry is one of the last acceptable (in some circles) forms of bigotry. People who would not dream of using the n-word or other ethnic slurs still use anti-gay slurs. I hear them in meetings and over work-related meals when people think it is safe to make them.

To those of you who say that he is a baby or that he should just accept it as part of Biglaw life, I suggest you spend your life listening to people make demeaning and insulting remarks, and see how easy or appropriate it is to accept it or try to live with it. It ain't easy.

Who's career suicide was worse - Opinionistas or Charney?

Opinionistas now makes the equivalent of $2.25 an hour writing rambling blog entries for Arianna Huffington. She probably gets plenty of support from her parents though, as I assume, does her "artsy" boyfriend. They now live in Brooklyn. ick.

Charney could end up losing his shirt and reputation in the S&C suit and possibly (longshot) his law license if the conversion and breach of confidentiality charges stick and somehow turns into a state bar complaint. Charney will probably have to move to Brooklyn as well when its all over. ick.

I guess Charney's old lawyer wasn't on contingency, otherwise he would have the right to put a lien on anything David wins.

The question is, are Charney's current two high powered lawyers on contingency? The answer to this question will decide how long and how hard Charney can fight. Then again this is such a huge case that Alterman and Schnell may stay in just for the publicity and name recognition it gives them.

Where's Lavi to the rescue?

Who's career suicide was worse - Opinionistas or Charney?

Opinionistas now makes the equivalent of $2.25 an hour writing rambling blog entries for Arianna Huffington. She probably gets plenty of support from her parents though, as I assume, does her "artsy" boyfriend. They now live in Brooklyn. ick.

Charney could end up losing his shirt and reputation in the S&C suit and possibly (longshot) his law license if the conversion and breach of confidentiality charges stick and somehow turns into a state bar complaint. Charney will probably have to move to Brooklyn as well when its all over. ick.

Aaron Charney, Power Bottom.

12:44, 12:49
IMO none of this gossip rehabilitates Jack Scheich or LeGal. It cannot justify his initial comments to ABC or his non-curative emails that followed. It cannot explain the LeGal Board's poor judgment when it finally learned (supposedly) of the controversy, but still elected him as President.

I think it was clear to anyone with common sense that Charney's biglaw career was over the day he decided to file an internal harassment complaint. I don't know why you guys are debating this.

[Lavi is having some computer problems today...]

12:44, 12:49
IMO none of this gossip rehabilitates Jack Scheich or LeGal. It cannot justify his initial comments to ABC or his non-curative emails that followed. It cannot explain the LeGal Board's poor judgment when it finally learned (supposedly) of the controversy, but still elected him as President.

Lavi,
The comment posting feature on this site sucks. A highschool kid could set up a more functional website. And yes I know David has nothing to do with that since he's only a writer.

Are we going to see a post on othe Northwestern SBA President stepping down because he didn't pick diverse student leaders to a breakfast with CJ Roberts? Apparently he was forced out by the law school adminstration after saying he wanted all student ethnic groups dismantled.

Loyola 2L,

What do you know about anything related to Biglaw -- you've never had, and will never have, a BigLaw firm job?

Leave the debating to those of us who know (worked for S&C peer firm) and start studying so you can defend DWI's.

1:16 -- nice argument but for a separate post, though I guess he's a wannabe Charney -- smart kids who know only how to explode their Promising careers before they've even started!!

is that northwestern thing true? that totally deserves a post.

Anonymous 1:16 -- where do you get your info that he was "apparently" forced out? Are you an NU student? And are you sure it was his job to "pick" the student attendees?

1:27 - Yes, it's true. See the WSJ Law Blog here, http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/02/06/breakfast-of-controversy/

The texts of the emails are floating around

1:25 Perfect microcosm of life for tier 2 grads. Every time we dare have a thought or try to contribute in any way to the legal profession, we are shunned aside.

1:30 - I'm not, but I have friends who are. The forcing of the hand seems pretty obvious by the collection of emails regarding the situation

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=576233&mc=6&forum_id=2

Yes, I know it's XOXO, but the emails appear to be accurate (there is an email imploring people to stop forwarding the emails to XOXO)

Continuing my response to 1:25, would anyone care if a tier 2 SBA president was forced to resign? I doubt it. Would a supreme court justice even visit and have lunch with tier 2 students? I doubt it.

Please, admit you do not like this guy, David. Are you scared he might make more money than us??
You sound very opinionated too.... I would definitely give him the benefit of the doubt.

Loyola 2L strikes again. Didn't he promise to go to med school or something??

No I didn't promise that. It's just the hope I created to get me through the unemployed, little-hope, tier 2 life of a legal Dalit.

Loyola 2L strikes again. Didn't he/she promise to go to med school or something??

Johnny One-Note is back...

1:43 - I think David has views him as some sort of sexy James Dean type.

Loyola 2L,

No one wants to make you feel badly. But have an intelligent thought once in a while or don't post.

And Tier 2 is not shut out of the profession -- David posted that a Cardozo grad will be clerking on SCOTUS. Pretty impressive to me.

In the interest of clarification, and who doesn't enjoy at least one juicy clarification each day, I should specify that I was referring to my office server/internet connection in my post above (1:10).

I didn't even mention my bleak tier 2 life until 1:25 brought it up. Read the comment history to verify.

David - what are YOU wearing to the big hearing tomorrow? Its going to be a grand event huh?

L2L, please, please, please, please, for the love of God, spare us the Dickensian melodrama about how bleak your life is.

St. Cheryl, 1:00:

When you hear anti-gay slurs in meetings and work-related meals how do you react? (I have tried to raise this issue before... no takers). This is meant as a curious inquiry, not an indictment of you, implied or otherwise.

Loyola 2L is not a real Loyola 2L. If you can't see that, well, then, you don't understand his point.

He's making fun of you making fun of him. He's one of you making fun of your vanity as you work insane hours at thankless jobs.

He's a post-modern master.

Good job L2L -- I haven't seen anything this funny in a while.

Loyola - plenty of tier 2 grads get hired at top shops, you just have to actually get good grades.

Sounds like you are a combo of poor/average grades and a tier 2 school. That combo does make it tough to get a big law gig.

David, it's interesting that you took the first comment to be more helpful to Charney than the second. I look at the first comment and I see a dude who blows everything out of proportion and has no sense of reality. That's the kind of person who files lawsuits with no basis.

The second comment makes me think that MAYBE, just MAYBE, there's some kernal of truth to the allegations and S&C gave him a settlement offer because of it. If there was no truth to it, they'd have nothing to hide and wouldn't fear a trial where they'd be proven pro-gay. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a decided and powerful anti-gay contingent at S&C (or, you know pretty much EVERY law firm).

It is unfortunate if Charney is making this (or most of it) up. Homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, racism, and other forms of discrimination are very real, very serious problems for which law firms should rightly be taken to task for inadequately correcting. When people bring trumped-up charges, people who don't experience discrimination find it easier to blow off people who make LEGITIMATE complaints (and there are many). If this is what Charney has done, there's a special place in hell for him. I hope to God he doesn't set back gay rights, but I fear from these rumors that he might.

L2L - stop whining. It's your attitude, not Loyola that's holding you back.

Loyola 2L,

Why don't you go back to JDJive with the rest of the self loathing losers over there...your attititude is much more appropriate for that board

Loyola 2L,

Why don't you go back to JDJive with the rest of the self loathing losers over there...your attititude is much more appropriate for that board

Junior - let's just see what the evidence shows when this is a comlpeted trial in a year or two or three.

2:08 - Only 10% are allowed to get good enough grades for a worthwhile job. Even they have very little chance at a real contribution.

1:43 PM: Are you kidding about Lat not liking Charney? Until this post, almost everything on ATL was "rah-rah-Aaron."

Lavi,

I always express disapproval, but how it comes out depends on the circumstances. If I think I am going to lose my job over it, then I'll make a Miss Manners-like comment or gesture. Sometimes, just a raised eyebrow or a skeptical but cold look accompanied by silence can bring the conversation to a dead stop, thus embarrassing the speaker. I've never heard anyone make an anti-gay comment in my presence more than once. If I'm not worried about losing my job, I'm sharper, snarkier or more direct. I have fantasies of going on a rant when that happens, but I doubt that would be very effective.

Junior Associate, 2:09, you make some excellent points. Homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, racism, and other forms of discrimination are very real, very serious problems for which law firms should rightly be taken to task for inadequately correcting. When people bring trumped-up charges, people who don't experience discrimination find it easier to blow off people who make LEGITIMATE complaints (and there are many).While I agree that people who do not experience discrimination generally find it easier to minimize the complaints of those who do, even without the trumped-up or exaggerated charges (I am not implying that Aaron Charney's allegations are exaggerated or trumped-up) there are plenty of gay doubters when it comes to charges of anti-gay discrimination. Incongruously, the doubters are often those who are the most circumspect, discreet and politic when it comes to concealing/revealing their own sexual orientation in the workplace.

Could you argue that Charney's old defensiveness and combativeness was an expression of the resentment he felt at living in a society where he felt he couldn't come out of the closet?

I haven't been on ATL in 2 days.. and I can't believe Loyola is still talking about the other 90% at his law school.

You consistently complain that you would drop it if everyone else did, and yet every board I visit you are bringing it up. Get a life, or get a second job to make up for the $ you won't be getting at whatever "toilet" firm that ends up hiring you.

Sure, L2L, you could argue that, but who cares? It doesn't really make a difference to the facts of what happened.

2:39 I don't think any of the evidence regarding Charney's past will be admitted any way.

2:35 - please review the comment history to see who started it (1:25)

Why not? You don't think his performance and ability to work with others is relevant?

Why not? You don't think his performance and ability to work with others is relevant?

2:43 I guess I don't know. We would need to speak with an experienced discrimination lawsuit litigator to see how this works in NY courts.

It's obviously relevant, at least on a theoretical level.

BS, L2L, stop blaming others for "starting it." You miraculously find a way of bringing every thread back to your "bleak" plight. See, e.g., your sua sponte whine in the SC clerks thread. Stop acting like your life is a freakin' Dickens novel.

Loyola:

We keep telling you to study hard, get As this year, get a job as a 3L. Work harder, make partner, and then:

may be you can terrorize young associates with JDs from Stanford and UCLA and USC.

Opinionistas is a sanctimonious bitch. She sux worse than Brooklyn.

I have a friend who went on a few dates with Aaron Charney. He thinks Aaron is telling the truth because he seemed very down to earth and laid back. Their dating didn't continue for long (despite Aaron being a good kisser [according to my friend]) because Aaron was the type who had pictures of his mom and dad ALL over his apartment (which i assumed meant next to the bed). I'm not sure what that all means, but that's what he said.

So is Aaron a top or a bottom?????

I find Loyola 2L's Dickensian wallowing in self-pity to be simply hilarious, because, objectively, it doesn't sound like he's in that bad a situation.

(I happen to be a grad from a Tier 4 law school with a fed. dist. ct. clerkship... I don't imagine I'll be able to get into BigLaw, but then again, I'm not that interested in doing so.)

Loyola 2L, half of the law students in this country are in Tier 3 and Tier 4 law schools... if you're in the toilet, where are they?

So is Aaron a top or a bottom?????

My guess would be that Aaron is a top.

Loyola 2l --

About 15 percent of your classmates landed biglaw jobs--you were just too stupid to cut it. You really shouldn't blame Loyola, since the school's employment stats were readily available before you enrolled (and apparently wasted 100k). You knew or should've known that you needed to finish near the top of the class to work big law, just like you knew or should've known that you were too stupid to make the grade. Blame yourself, not your law school.

Did we ever establish whether S & C actually got a TRO or is it still speculation? Because from what I understand, they're really, really hard to get. So either Charney is in a lot more trouble than we realize, or he's just keeping quiet to be safe. Does anyone know?

I think the first comment shows Aaron to be, of all things, a corporate m&a lawyer/litigator in nyc (the horror!). Most people who go into law (not to mention at top firms) are unnecessarily confrontational (compared to the general population), combative, opinionated and argumentative. I am sure most associates and partners at S&C have these personality traits as well. Not sure it sheds much light on the relevant question.

I repeat -- Loyola 2L is laughing his arse off at the trouble he's causing. He's not Loyola and probably not even 2L.

He's an S&C atty who is enjoying pissing off vain, overconfident morons who are now finding that BigLaw wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

3:15 PM: How long ago did you friend date Charney? Someone previously posted that he is in an LTR I think.

what's an LTR?

long-term relationship

LTR=Long Term Relationship

I repeat -- Loyola 2L is laughing his arse off at the trouble he's causing. He's not Loyola and probably not even 2L.

He's an S&C atty who is enjoying pissing off vain, overconfident morons who are now finding that BigLaw wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Lat, can you please control the commenters? They are getting unruly.

If Lat tried to control the commenters this site would be boring.

Did we ever establish whether S & C actually got a TRO or is it still speculation? Because from what I understand, they're really, really hard to get. So either Charney is in a lot more trouble than we realize, or he's just keeping quiet to be safe. Does anyone know?

Here is how we can sum up the comments --

Loyola 2L is annoying -- whether he's real or not.

ABC is a media whore who now has to shut up; he's a confrontaional a-hole who loves his mom and dad; and, depending upon your position (top or bottom) is either helping discrimination or hurting the fight against it.

and david will wear a matching feather boa (matching to David Braff's) tomorrow at the hearing.

Is that it?

btw -- over at WSJ Law blog, it appears someone has indicated that ABC is converting to Islam. Is that true?

Link to WSJ blog entry regarding his conversion to Islam? I didn't see anything.

It was a joke, in the comments.

I do not believe the TRO question was resolved definitively. But good news for the curious: tomorrow's hearing is only 17.5 hours away...

Oh. I don't think a conversion to Islam would be a good idea for Charney. As I understand Islam treats homosexuals about as kindly as the legal world treats tier 2 grads.

ABC was at a madrassa. With Barack Obama. Their imam: Zach Fasman.

Hey everyone, let's come up with staggeringly inaccurate metaphors to describe Loyola 2L's plight in the legal world.

-Islam's treatment of homosexuals.
-Bosnia's treatment of Muslims?
-Hutu's treatment of Tutsis?
-Germany's treatment of .... ?

"So is Aaron a top or a bottom?????"

Wow, just when I thought things couldn't get any more juvenile...

4:22. I didn't mean literally. I was referring to the way we're (the non top 10%) are made to feel. Like we don't belong.

If you don't understand, imagine you've had your resume summarily rejected by 200 firms without even one interview.

4:16 -- really! I didn't know Fasman was Muslim. Please provide detail.

L2L -- it happens to top tier-ers too. How d'you think that makes us feel?

I didn't post the 4:26 message. Someone is pretending to be me, as long as he doesn't have to take my resume.

As I understand it, the early Romans treated Christians about as kindly as the legal world treats tier 2 grads. One time this tier 2 kid sent in a resume to Davis Polk and they sent lions to his house to eat him!

I'm going to repost this because I don't think L2L read this post.

Some on this post have doubted if L2L is actually a law student. For the purposes of this post, I will assume L2L is actually a law student, but others could be correct because I am somewhat surprised that anyone with the ability to get into law school or become a lawyer would act in such a poor manner.

L2L, your self-pity and absolute incapability to recognize what a great situation you are in is at times disheartening to hear given all of those in this world who have real, difficult, and troubling problems much more than your being "stuck" at a tier 2 law school. GET REAL. About 1/4 of the people in this country actually graduate from ANY college, and only a few of those actually are in the position to get a post-graduate degree. The US has 300 MILLION people in it and probably only 2-3% of them have a graduate degree, let alone one of the most valuable graduate degrees: a JD.

You have already posted that you believe getting a JD degree from a tier 2 school is basically worthless and all of those going to a school under T-14 are wasting their money because they can't get the BIGlaw jobs. If you feel the degree you would receive upon graduation is so worthless, why are you still in law school? I assume you have accumulated $60-80K in loans thus far and to graduate you would probably accumulate another $60-80K...so if you are such a rational person and your degree will be so worthless, why are you even contemplating completing law school and racking up another $60-80K of debt? The fact of the matter is that your degree IS very worthwhile, but you seem to be content to whine about what a horrible life you have and how you have been "tricked" by Loyola to giving them your money for nothing.

You sound like a little baby, and guess what, that is NOT a good way to impress classmate, professors, and most importantly potential employers.

You have constantly disgraced all current Loyola law students and, moreover, you have insulted every person who currently attends a law school that is under T-14 by stating that their degrees are worthless. That type of attitude will undoubtedly do you a lot of harm in whatever future you decide to pursue.

If you are seriously committed to getting a BIGlaw job or any job for that matter you need to shut your mouth, end your whining, learn how to form a real legitimate argument and how to defend it, and get off this post so you can spend more time in the books expanding your legal education, and less time with your head in the clouds justifying to yourself whatever failures you might have had in your life up until this point.

The fact of the matter is that the law gods have not stacked themselves against you and contrary to what you have been whining about you can get a great job with determination, hard work, and most importantly a realistic and positive attitude about your situation. Instead of sitting here blaming everything under the sun for why you cannot get a job, why don't you prove you have the talent, the drive, and the will to work in BIGlaw regardless of whatever obstacles you might think are in your way.

The entire time you have been posting here you have been communicating with associates, partners, and fellow law students, and like it or not these are your colleagues and their opinions matter because these are the people that will help you succeed or watch you fail. If I'm not mistaken, the feedback you have been getting from your colleagues has been anything but positive. I think you need to look at that evidence and maybe consider that this is a great part of why you are in this situation. It isn't that bad, but you do absolutely nothing to make it better.

Learn from this.

I didn't post the 4:29 message either. And that resume joke isn't that funny, considering it has resulted in a lack of gainful employment, which has been pretty painful to my ego. Maybe SOMEONE can notice? The 80k I've wasted on this toilet degree is nothing compared to the insults and putdowns I've had to deal with here.

4:31 PM: No, Davis Polk wouldn't send lions. They're too passive aggressive for that. They'd send a box of poisoned candy hearts saying things like "YOU'RE FABULOUS" and "BE MINE."

S&C: Now THEY would send lions.

4:31 - Of course I can feel better by comparing myself to people who didn't even go to college. But why do you put me in that category? Is that how low a tier 2 grad is in your eyes?

I'm a college graduate with hopes and dreams of a rewarding career just like any other law student. Why should students from top schools be given the red carpet into the legal establishment while tier 2 students who only want a chance are told to count their blessings, and accused of being whiny?

You're simply blaming the victim. If you don't want to give us a chance then fine, you're the one with the power to hire, but at least have enough understanding of our hopes not to accuse us of wanting too much.

One time a tier 2 kid sent a resume into Cleary and a ninja showed up at his house and waited for the kid to open a window just so the ninja could uppercut the kid.

Loyola 2L,

What would you say to tier 3 law students?

I don't think they have it any different. Outside of a few top schools, about the top 18 or so, we're all pretty much lumped together.

A couple of years ago, a tier 2 grad (he will remain anonymous) sent a resume to Cravath. About two days later, he was kidnapped, extraordinarily rendered to Afghanistan and then Macedonia, kept in a solitary cell for five months, beaten, tortured, interrogated by a man named Sam, and then unceremoniously dumped out of a moving van somewhere in Albania. Needless to say, he didn't get an interview. Also needless to say, this is also a true story, which will perhaps put your tragic tale in perspective when you realize that some people have it a lot worse than you. Additionally, his lawsuit is now being litigated by an ACLU attorney who is a (near) tier 2 law grad.

Well put, 4:37. I used the wrong firm. However, as I understand it, S&C treats tier 2 legal grads the same way Mortimer's prison guards treated Edward II. One time a tier 2 grad sent a resume in and they killed him by putting a red hot poker in his secret parts.

"Why should students from top schools be given the red carpet into the legal establishment while tier 2 students who only want a chance are told to count their blessings, and accused of being whiny? "

Loyola 2L--

You got your chance and you failed. You had to finish in the top 15% in your class, and you did not. Chalk it up to bad study habits, chalk it up to lack of intellect (which, judging from your postings, is more likely the culprit)--either way, you whiffed. So stop blaming Loyola and/or your supposed TTT branding for your own shortcomings.

My only point is that I could have put my time and $100k to better use than entering some sadistic contest where only 5-10% (your 15% # is too high) are allowed to have their hopes fulfilled.

L2L - Don't you mean only 5-10% are allowed to have YOUR hopes fulfilled? Unless you've polled your entire class, you don't really know their hopes, do you?

But, as someone already pointed out, you knew the deal going in--you only needed to look as far as Loyola's employment statistics. So why then did you take the 100k plunge?

What happens to Tier 4 Legal Grads -- say, from the Western NE College of Law?

We get into S&C, work our arses off, make partner, crack about Canadians, rough up gay associates, make potty jokes and get chewed out by our lead partners.

but we still pull home north of $1MM per year.

and we remain Tier 4 law grads!!

Suckas!

L2L, if you hate your lot so much, go and do something about it and stop whining to an audience who initially may have had sympathy for you, but has been thoroughly turned off by your one-trick pony.

Loyola 2L -

You could have gone to a tier 3 school on a scholarship. You then would have little to no debt and might have a chance of being Top 10%. As it is, I dont think you would be worth paying the BIGLaw rate for you to work for a client and I certainly dont want you in a "position of influence" in the legal world, which you said in another thread you wanted.

If you want to be influential, or even settle for relevant, go write a paper, get it published and show the legal establishment that you are not the whiny blob you seem to be on ATL. It may even help you get a job.

You're right about the T3 scholarship thing. But then again if I could do it all over again I would have just done something else.

I don't even know why 1:25 had to bring this up. I'm pretty much over it. Enjoy your biglaw jobs and please do consider us tier 2 grads. We're not as worthless as the legal world thinks we are.

Loyola 2L - Can I interview you in real life? Your posting has inspired me to submit a column in my school's law newsletter about employment-related issues.

Is it possible, just a little bit possible, that Loyola 2L is none other than Aaron Charney himself?

Now that he's clammed up maybe he fears that his original strategy of massive publicity didn't make any sense. Maybe now the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and he's engaging in a diversionary manuever.

I mean -- we started with Charney comments and now the best we got is arguing about an idiot.

The point of my previous post was to:

(1) show you that a lot of what you have previously posted is really illogical and overkill (dropping law school to go to med school because your law degree will be worthless, supposing your degree will not give you the job you want but continually paying Loyola, making a blanket statement that anyone under a T-14 school is almost totally shut out of BIGlaw);

(2) get you to realize that you need to stop spending so much time posting and go study; and

(3) make you realize how insulting you have been to every person at Loyola and tier 2-4 school in general.

You don't ever seem to let what people say in response to your posts sink into your head. Instead you have some preconceived notion that everyone on this blog (1) is in BIGlaw and (2) looks down upon tier 2 grads. But, a lot of the negative feedback you have encountered has come from students/grads from Loyola and other tier 2-4 schools. You just don't seem to comprehend that almost everything everyone has posted has been positive about Loyola and such other schools, and this "is this how low a tier 2 grad is in your eyes" is bull because I don't think fellow tier 2 or below posters see themselves as lowly as you seem to see yourself.

Do you think if everyone on this post thought so poorly of Loyola or tier 2 they would actually try to give you constructive advice about your supposed problem? I think people are tired of this game, and I obviously tried to put in some helpful thoughts but that obviously got nowhere.

So I think I, along with everyone else who is seriously posting, should not bother with you because either you are an attention hungry loser, or this is an act of total bull and you are putting people on for your own amusement.

Either way, I propose that anyone on this blog from now on not even respond to L2L.

I think I speak for most everyone on this blog when I say:

L2L go fuck off.

5:12 The issue definitely needs discussion, but I don't want to out myself. Things are bad enough already. But you should have no problem finding someone in my shoes to talk too.

So I am waiting to hear from law schools and am guessing that I will have the choice among the following. Any advice so I don't turn out like Loyola 2L? I would like to be at a top firm in a secondary market.

A; School ranked 10-20, barely got in, likely will be middle of the class if I am lucky.

B: School ranked 25-40 but the top local school in the market I probably want to work in (not NY/DC/LA), likely will do well.

-School ranked approx 75, offered named scholarship so would graduate with no debt, funnels most grads to the market i am interested in, all of the top firms in the market recruit there and have a few partners who went there, seems like I could be top of my class.

Hey, 5:13, I'm on board.

5:17

Follow the advice I have heard from so many people: go to the best school you get into...

5:17 - I was in a similar situation. Unless you are absolutely certain you want to work in that region, you should go to the best school you got into.

Otherwise, worst case, you'll end up sending your resume to 200 firms and not getting a single interview.

For me, it's worked out fine - I went to a tier 2 school over the tier 1 I got into and I have a great job, but it was more difficult than it otherwise would have been.

5:17 - Listen carefully young man. If you don't get into class A, then take the scholarship.

Further, do not, do not, I repeat do not, assume your class rank will be correlated with the school you go to. Law school exam grading is highly subjective and unpredictable. It's not like college or the LSATs where there's an answer and you just have to know it. I've gotten As (top of class) in classes I didn't work very hard on and lower grades in classes I worked very hard on and knew inside and out. There's a reason professors are accused of grading papers by throwing them down the stairs.

Edit my last post. If you do not get into class A, seriously consider not going to law school, but if you must go then take the scholarship.

5:17, not all 10-20 schools are held in high regard, despite their rankings. Schools like Iowa and Minnesota, while ranked in the top 20, may be held in much lower regard (or be completely unknown) in the market where you want to work than the local 25-40 school. That said, unless you're absolutely sure about the market you want to work in, even a more obscure top 20 school might give you more options in the long run. While the scholarship to the lower ranked school seems tempting, you won't be able to explain to everyone who comes into your office and sees that degree on your wall why you went there, and people are going to jump to conclusions about your competence (whereas I work with plenty of people from top 15 schools who have to work hard to diminish clients expectations of them based solely upon their pedigree).

The fact is that you'll hear success stories from people who attended all ranges of law schools, but it's a lot easier to get there when you start out at a top school. In short, I tend to agree with the go to the best school you get into advice.

c'mon!@!@!

FU 2L

Puhlease let's talk about Charney!!!

5:17, if there is any advice to be disregarded prima facie, it is Loyola's. If you are intelligent, dedicated and curious, you will thrive at any tier 1 or 2 law school and the sky is the limit.

5:17

Grades are not decided on the winds of chance and dumb luck. There is a possiblity that in ONE class you take in law school you might not receive the grade you really deserved. But, overall when you take into account how many classes you take and how many grades you get, your grades will accurately reflect your performance, despite what others might think.

Law school has a rhyme and reason and trust me, if you have been accepted to the schools you say you have, I think you will do quite well.

Law school requires not only great intellect, but also hard work and dedication. If you come into law school with that attitude you will get the grades you want...and that is the point: you have to want it.

I agree with other posters here that if you know you are going to be in a specific market, you should go to the best school in that market, and hope to get a scholarship to ease the debt burden.

If you are not sure, you should go to the best school that accepts you because it will give you options.

Good luck.

5:33 Why must you insult me? First of all he asked a question which you didn't answer. He wanted to know which of the three choices he should take.

And stop your PT Barnum the sky's the limit nonsense. There may be a sucker born ever minute, but eventually they figure out they were given bad advice.

5:17 - follow your bliss and DO NOT listen to ANYTHING L2L has to say.

If you work hard in law school you should do well. I agree with 5:19 that you should go to the best school that accepts you.

However, in the spirit of full disclosure, I am a grad of a tier 4 school (*gasp*) and work in biglaw. Not BigLaw, mind you but big - my firm has over 1,000 attorneys which I am happy to be one of.

So, despite the drivel that L2L likes to splatter on this board about his lot in life, you can do well regardless of where you go.

You need to consider what your true goals are in the practice of law. If you are chasing $$$ then go to the best school. But if you really want to stay in a particular region, or another sub T1 school excels in a specialty you like, then go there.

At the end of the day you have to be happy with your practice. Many BigLaw lawyers I don't think really do. They slave at their jobs to pay off their loans then move on. Not many make it to partner, nor want to.

For me, I have my dream job. I love it. Life is too short to do something you hate for even a minute.

I really hope you are going to law school for all of the right reasons because it truly is a most honorable profession. Good luck to you in making your decision.

"Follow your bliss?" WTH kind of advice is that? This is a kid's life your playing with so please don't trifle with it.

If he incorrectly goes to the B category school he may very well wind up like me: unemployed because I didn't make top 10% and drowning in debt. If he goes to the C category school at least he won't be in debt for it. Obviously if he goes into the A category school he should be fine.

c'mon!@!@!

FU 2L

Puhlease let's talk about Charney!!!

5:37 makes a good point. There aren't many truly happy people in my office. If I had it to do over, I'd probably choose a different career path, but once I got stuck with loans and a family to support I didn't have much choice but to continue working in Biglaw. I'm not the only person in my office promising myself that I'll work here only so long as I have to in order to have a chance to do something I really want to do. The money really isn't worth it - if you find something you love and are smart enough to cut it in Biglaw, you'll succeed in whatever you do and the money will follow.

To follow up on 5:41, you should have reasons that you are going to law school other than (1) to make a lot of $$$ or (2) because you didn't know what else to do. If you have a passion, then the hours it takes to be a lawyer will be worth it because you won't always feel like you are working. But, if you are unsure, you might want to think about a career path outside the law.

""Follow your bliss?" WTH kind of advice is that?"

L2L - that means that life is too damn short to complain as much as you do. It means quit law school, L2L, and don't become a lawyer. You don't even want to be one. So grow a pair, quit and find something that will keep you from bitching and your poor lot in life.

I want to be one, but I, like other non top 10% tier 2 students, aren't allowed.

Another thing you might want to consider if you have been accepted to multiple schools is the size and reputation of their Career Services. A school with a budget of $50,000 and 5 people devoted to placing you in a job versus a school with $2 million and 50 people devoted to placing you in a job is a big difference and regardless of US News rankings of who is better than who, at the end of the day a school with a great Career Services will really help you get the job you want.

5:13 -

Maybe the easier way to get L2L to shut up is to run a poll of how many T3 and 4 alum there are working for BigLaw.

Then, he'll realize that it's not BigLaw - it's him - and go somewhere to, I don't know, study or something.

"I want to be one, but I, like other non top 10% tier 2 students, aren't allowed."

Posted by: Loyola 2L

But you knew that going in, before you dropped 100k, so why are you bitching?!?

A friendly reminder that responding to L2L only provokes L2L to post more. It's a lost cause trying to reason with L2L so let's try to ignore L2L and have a real discussion in spite of this annoyance.

Again, if there any advice not to be taken on law school or employment, it's that given by the completely pitiful, pathetic, loathsome figure who blames everything except himself for his lot in job-related life.

5:49 is absolutely wrong. The size of your CSO is irrelevant. Loyola often brags about having one of the largest CSO's in the country but the only thing they can do for you is to tell you to get good grades (meaning top 10%) or tell you to network.

If you go to a tier 2 your CSO can't turn you into a top school grad.

I am so glad I'm on here because a lot of people with no clue how these things work seem heck bent on giving bad advice.

5:49 is absolutely wrong. The size of your CSO is irrelevant. Loyola often brags about having one of the largest CSO's in the country but the only thing they can do for you is to tell you to get good grades (meaning top 10%) or tell you to network.

If you go to a tier 2 your CSO can't turn you into a top school grad.

I am so glad I'm on here because a lot of people with no clue how these things work seem heck bent on giving bad advice.

I can't believe you guys bring the matter up by insulting me, solely because of my tier 2 status (see 1:25 post) then blame me for responding and daring to talk about my plight.

I'm out of here.

Oh - heaven forbid, are you leaving the safe environs of the blog-world to actually go, (gasp!), study?

You know, if L2L spent 1/2 the amount of time studying as he does posting on this board, maybe he'd been the top 10%, have a job, and thus be too busy to complain about his life. Besides, if he really wants to make a contribution to the legal world, as he claims, why is he so focused on BigLaw? Don't nonprofit, government, and other law-related ventures offer more of an opportunity? Last time I checked, due diligence and M&A drafting weren't really classified as "making a contribution" in the way that, say, the civil rights division of Main Justice is classified. He's just whining because no one will pay him $160K starting. It's not really about "making a contribution to the legal world" for him.

I went to a Tier 10,000 law school. TEN THOUSAND! They tried to stack up my tier against the other tiers, but 10,000 tiers weighs so much that my tier caused all the other tiers to collapse. Even Harvard. HARVARD!

Seems to me the best way to deal with me is for everyone to (1) ignore me; (2) sign as "Loyola 2L" so that my identity is diluted in a sea of anonymous comments (and switch to any new moniker that I may try to adopt); and (3) stop talking about stupid things like "tier 2" schools, and resume intelligent discussion of S&C v. ABC.

A lot of the above comments are not by me. It should be obvious which by reading them.

L2L,

well, are you out of here or not? You claim "I'm out of here" at 6:09, then sure enough you show up to post again at 6:44.

If you say you're going to leave, then LEAVE.

This isn't some biglaw firm where you're not allowed to deny tier 2 students access.

L2L,

well, are you out of here or not? You claim "I'm out of here" at 6:09, then sure enough you show up to post again at 6:44.

If you say you're going to leave, then LEAVE.

I hope that L2L sticks around. I find him entertaining, and I enjoy his arguments with the turd-burglaring BigLaw associates.

Loyola 2L will stay as long as we're allowed to type 'Loyola 2L' into the "Name:" dialog box.

Is L2L a top or a bottom? Inquiring minds want to know.

L2L,
What are you doing this Summer?

I sent out 200+ resumes hoping for a biglaw summer position, but didn't get one interview. So I guess I'll have to pay my school for another externship.

your life sucks

Is Loyola2L single? Top or bottom? I thought this was a GOSSIP site, people.

Loyola2L, i <3 u. Meet me behind the gym after class so we can make out. If Loyola has a gym.

ps- where is loyola?

L2L, did you send your resume to any smaller firms in the region?

Every firm on NALP in my region and another large city.

Loyola 2L: "I'm out of here." 6:09 PM.

Loyala 2L: "I'm back. I was just posturing before. I yelled at you guys for using rhetoric but I'll kindly ask you to ignore the use of mine. I had the brains to get into a Harvard type law school but because of bad advice I ended up at a crappy tier 2 school. Somehow those Harvard qualifying brains couldn't get me to the top of my class. Let's have an intelligent discussion about things. I think Fasman is just trying to drive up billables. That's the shame of the defense bar. Do you think Charney's past will be admissible? What's replevin? I only go to a tier 2 school."

But you just stuck with NALP?

Yeah, why?

cause there are other firms out there besides those on NALP

Toilet firms? I don't think they have paying summer positions.

I hope L2L goes to med school. Then in 2014, I hope a plaintiffs' lawyer from a Tier 3 law school files a frivolous malpractice suit against him. The jury hears L2L whining, and assesses punitive damages, and, as a result of new laws passed by President Edwards and the Democratic Congress, L2L is sold to our new Iranian and Venezuelan overlords, who we surrendered to in 2013.

Loyola 2L,

First, if you really sent out that many resumes/cover letters (assuming you are top 25% like you say), I would suggest that you're doing something wrong - I would have someone look over them. I'm not saying that to put you down or anything - just practical advice. Second, not getting a summer associate position is not the end of the world or you career. I know it sucks to eat subway instead of ruth's chris for lunch, but you'll get over it. As you can tell even from these pages, there many ways to a biglaw job - I know attorneys from lower ranked schools who first worked as ADAs, AUSAs, SEC staffers, small firms, nonprofits, research assistants - you name it.
I mean if your self-depricating posts make you feel better about yourself in some twisted way - then by all means, go ahead. But if you're looking for advice/encouragement, take this to heart - if you want a biglaw job bad enough, you will certainly get one. So stop bitching.

Loyola 2L,

First, if you really sent out that many resumes/cover letters (assuming you are top 25% like you say), I would suggest that you're doing something wrong - I would have someone look over them. I'm not saying that to put you down or anything - just practical advice. Second, not getting a summer associate position is not the end of the world or you career. I know it sucks to eat subway instead of ruth's chris for lunch, but you'll get over it. As you can tell even from these pages, there many ways to a biglaw job - I know attorneys from lower ranked schools who first worked as ADAs, AUSAs, SEC staffers, small firms, nonprofits, research assistants - you name it.
I mean if your self-depricating posts make you feel better about yourself in some twisted way - then by all means, go ahead. But if you're looking for advice/encouragement, take this to heart - if you want a biglaw job bad enough, you will certainly get one. So stop bitching.

11:26 OCS looked them over. They do that for everyone. I don't care about the food. I don't like RK any way. Too rich. I don't maybe my attitude would change if I ever experienced biglaw life but as it is subway is a luxury for me.

My posts are in response other people's questions. Like this one's in reponse to yours. I'm not sure they help me feel better, but it might be good to talk about your disappointments.