NYU Law School Administrators Impair the Student Body's Professional Development
Up in Cambridge, the students of Harvard Law School are trying to get those pesky undergraduates out of Hemenway gym.
But in New York's Greenwich Village, the students of NYU Law School have a much more welcoming attitude towards college-age youngsters. In fact, that attitude may be TOO welcoming.
Yesterday a memo went out to all NYU law students from Yvette Bravo-Weber, Assistant Dean for Student Affairs. It concerned the upcoming "Spring Fling" party, scheduled for March 8, and various changes being instituted this year -- due to some, er, misbehavior from last year.
The memo is mildly amusing, due to the dry, clinical manner in which it discusses what we imagine was a bunch of drunken law students -- and their underage guests -- puking their guts out. You can check out the full NYU memo -- with commentary from us, questioning the wisdom of these "reforms" -- after the jump.
Here's the NYU memo that went around yesterday. It's not hilarious, but it's certainly worth a chuckle or two.
To: All Law StudentsNow, much of this is no laughing matter. But we must admit enjoying the memo's university-administrator-speak (which has to be the only language more odious than legalese).
From: Yvette Bravo-Weber
Re: Spring Fling, March 8, 2007 – A Message of Concern
Date: February 27, 2007The annual Spring Fling will take place in the Vanderbilt Hall on Thursday, March 8th between 8 PM and 12AM. Invitations will be placed in student mailboxes later this week. We wanted to let you know about some changes we have instituted at this year’s Spring Fling as a result of incidents that occurred at the 2006 Spring Fling and 2006 Fall Ball.
We found that the level of intoxication among some students at these events was quite high. As a result:
a) Several students become ill in Vanderbilt Hall and in the Residence Halls
b) Two students had to be hospitalized
c) One wait-staff was assaulted by an intoxicated student
d) There was extensive property damage to Greenberg Lounge
E.g., a "level of toxication" that was "quite high" (read: "students drunk off their asses"). And "extensive property damage to Greenberg Lounge" (read: "the place was f***ing trashed").
In addition, although we have always encouraged students to bring their spouse or domestic partner to these events, we found that many students were bringing other guests and that some of these guests were under 21. We had no mechanism for identifying these underage guests.
Hey -- how do you know that these under-21 guests weren't "spouse[s] or domestic partner[s]"? If various parental consent and special judicial approval requirements are satisified, you can get married as young as age 14 in New York State. (And if both applicants are 18, marriage does not require any parental consent or special judicial approval.)
We are sure you will agree that these issues are troubling and need to be addressed. Therefore, at this year’s Spring Fling law students must show their law school ID and a second form of ID showing their age. Any spouse or domestic partner who accompanies a law student must also have a picture ID that shows their age. Anyone without these IDs will not be admitted.
"We are sure you will agree": Oh really?
All attendees 21 years of age and over will be given a wristband with 2 drink tickets attached. Attendees under 21 will receive a wristband with no drink tickets. In addition, we will have sandwiches and other foods available in addition to the usual snacks, beer, wine, and soft drinks. As in previous years, we will stop serving alcoholic beverages one hour before the end of the event.We hope that these measures will help to address some of the problems associated with this event. However, it is up to all attendees to make the Spring Fling the community building and celebratory event that it is intended to be. Please look out for your fellow students and help us to make the event safe and enjoyable for everyone. Enjoy the Fling!
Now we can see where the NYU Law School administration is trying to go with this. We understand what they're trying to accomplish. But we think it's actually a bad idea.
We think it's far better to give law students, especially 1Ls, completely unencumbered access to limitless quantities of alcohol. This will allow them to learn -- the hard way, which is the only way they'll ever REALLY learn -- the limitations of their alcohol tolerance.
And isn't it far better for their professional development for law students to learn how to drink responsibly in the relative safety of an academic setting, before their careers as lawyers are truly launched? Isn't it far better to puke all over an assistant dean -- e.g., Yvette Bravo-Weber -- than a Biglaw hiring partner?
If you place these additional restrictions on the revelry at Spring Fling, won't you prevent NYU law students from making drunken fools of themselves AT SCHOOL -- a relatively safe, non-judgmental environment? Won't this prevent these students from learning, at an early stage in their law school careers, how to drink responsibly? Might this therefore increase the chances of them drinking irresponsibly at a later stage in their legal careers -- e.g., during their time as summer associates?
In short: Aren't you turning your students into the Aquagirls of the future?
(57) Comments
The NYU Administration loves, loves, loves treating its students like babies. If you don't want the law school trashed by drunk law students, then don't have the Spring Fling in the law school building. Rent out a bar. There are plenty in the area.
Let them drink!
two students had to be hospitalized....only in America. you guys are such pussies
The place was always trashed after any kind of social function. So, for Dean Bravo-Weber to have sent this, Spring Fling 2006 must have really been off the hook!
David, I also agree about the learn-the-hard-way attitude. Friday morning classes at NYU Law were laterally AA meetings for many students.
Lat's gone all paternalistic on us. That last comment appears to assume that these NYU kids have never seen alcohol before, and need to introduced to the demon liquor in an institutional environment.
Last time I checked, with very few exceptions, law students are over 21. I mean that what it looks like at "Off the Wagon", "The Peculiar Pub", "Josie Woods", and "The Back Fence."
This isn't Cambridge or New Haven, David, drinks are available in these parts...
"I literally shit my pants!"
"Dude, what'd you do with the shitty pants?"
"No, man, I didn't actually shit my pants"
"I literally shit my pants!"
"Dude, what'd you do with the shitty pants?"
"No, man, I didn't actually shit my pants"
isn't this just part of the cost of running a law school and having common spaces available for adult events (i.e., drinking)? they're really going out of their way to ruin a perfectly good event.
Wheres the HOt Librarian Contest?
Rumor has it that both cocaine use and public fornication were witnessed within the law school at last year's Spring Fling and/or this year's Fall Ball.
This behavior could very well be part of the subtext here.
Im 16 and married to an NYU student.
The bottom 80-90% of current 2L’s at Loyola are scrambling for anything they can get that contains alcohol. OCI was a joke if you weren’t in the elusive top 10%, and even those who were in the top 10% only got 1 drink ticket, at least one fewer than students from higher ranked schools.
I had no idea it was this bad. I was told that top 50% out of Loyola got as much free beer as they wanted, and the rest got MD 20/20. I also had no clue how random the grading was, which is especially stinting when you realize that only the top 10% get any drink tickets at all.
Until the partying gets racially insensitive, they have nothing on UConn Law. GO HUSKIES!
Is Loyola 2L from Loyola LA, Chicago or New Orleans?
rofl at 1:50 I laughed in class.
Boy, David, you really got worked up there at the end. You sounded like Otter. "And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!"
By the way, an administrative point. If you give the under-21 folks a bracelet and no tickets, can't they just get tickets from someone else?
My school knows how to party! I'm so proud.
Except for the part about assaulting the waitstaff. That's unbelievably lame. I hope that person is being mocked incessantly.
According to a purported Loyola 2L comment on the WSJ law blog, at least one of the Loyola 2L posters purports to be from L.A. --
"To add a bit more, I don’t want to out myself by releasing my GPA and LSAT but I got into a top 20s east coast school. I chose Loyola because I thought it would give me a leg up in Los Angeles. Possibly a stupid decision in hindsight but what’s done is done.
Comment by Loyola 2L - February 26, 2007 at 10:48 am"
Whew! *whipes brow*
Much mention was made about 1Ls learning the hard way about their alcohol tolerance...come on. This should have been "learned" at the latest as a junior in college. There's no harm in having a lot of drinks, but don't fight people and aim your vomit towards an appropriate receptacle. Have some respect...
honestly i don't know why anyone would go to NYU. fordham does just about as well at placing among the amlaw30, and it's a more collegial school with teachers who actually care. forget michigan, forget NYU, forget all this t14 nonsense. fordham is the way to go.
honestly i don't know why anyone would go to NYU. fordham does just about as well at placing among the amlaw30, and it's a more collegial school with teachers who actually care. forget michigan, forget NYU, forget all this t14 nonsense. fordham is the way to go.
This is AWFUL. Even at NYU, a pretty collegial and friendly place as far as law schools go, I never felt any great need to hang out with the vast majority of my classmates. Fall Ball and Spring Fling were the six times in my three years that I attended a social event with most of the student body in attendance - and the reason is because we were allowed to get shitcanned for free in the school building. Yes, that's stupid and sophomoric. Probably why we didn't get into Yale. But I'll be damned if it wasn't a hell of a lot of fun, and, in my opinion, beneficial for both the students and the school (puke stains notwithstanding). And it's a shame that it sounds like it's gone. Drink tickets and bracelets just aren't going to replace trays full of Bud Light and table wine. NYU Admin - Please reconsider!
you'll be glad to learn we're just going to get drunk before we go this year
I see nothing in that email that says you can't drink as much as you damn well want to if you are over 21. But, apparently, you only get 2 free drinks. So, what's the problem? They're still partially subsidizing your alcohol intake. Get over it. Next story.
Go NYU! Show them how we party in downtown Manhattan (just one of the 127 reasons we went to NYU over Fordham).
Go NYU! Show them how we party downtown (just one of the 127 reasons why we DIDN'T go to Fordham).
I see nothing in that email that says you can't drink as much as you damn well want to if you are over 21. But, apparently, you only get 2 free drinks. So, what's the problem? They're still partially subsidizing your alcohol intake. Get over it. Next story.
Hey, we didn't have table wine - it was yellow tail
PS... all double posters deserve to work at a list of shame firms.
Hey, we didn't have table win - it was yellow tail
PS... all double posters deserve to work at a list of shame firms.
Hey, we didn't have table wine - it was yellow tail
PS... all double posters deserve to work at a list of shame firms.
note the half hour delay between the first post and the other two. Nice try
I wholeheartedly agree with NYU '06. Check IDs, sure, but the two drink tickets thing is ridiculous. Arbitrary and capricious, even. It will ruin the nature of these unique events, which were truly the only occasion on which the whole law school community got together .
Fordham tries to pretend it has a rivalry with NYU and Columbia but there is no comparison.
NYU and Columbia are the NFL and NBA of the legal world while Fordham is the NHL... no one cares about you so go away!
It's true that Fordham isn't really a "rival" of NYU or Columbia, but it does ok and that's unnecessarily harsh. NYU08, I look forward to the day offers come out in your summer class and you don't get one.
Don't listen to people on the internet. Most simply do not know what they're talking about. Fordham places better than Michigan for example. So anyone thinking of where to apply, just forget about NYU and go to Fordham.
Look at this: http://law.fordham.edu/ihtml/news-2details.ihtml?id=612&nid=281
To NYU 08, you're just a liar. The numbers indisputably prove it. But I want an answer to this question: Why would you go on the internet and spread lies about Fordham? What in the world do you gain by that?
at ucla the SBA sent out an email a couple weeks ago saying they had discovered an issue with personal liability which meant they could no longer sponsor ANY activities (ie, no more bar reviews or beer in the courtyard)
found out today that the impetus for this announcement was a pair of 1Ls getting into a drunk altercation at the barrister's ball and one guy ending up in ER
lol
to 10:37
There are a lot of problems with that statistic. First, you would want to divide that by number of people in each graduating class. Second, it is unclear whether they are talking associates, partners, counsel, or heck even doc review attorneys. Third, the total number of lawyers is deceptive b/c it records performance as far back as 30 years ago. How do I know fordham wasn't the shit back then but it declined today.
Fordham is a good and probably underrated school... but don't blow it out of proportion. I really wondered if fordham kids at my firm would have a chip on their shoulders about not having gone to a "T14" and I hope you aren't any indication
NYU 08
Let's review. I stated that Fordham is better than Michigan at placement in NY and indeed a better place than NYU because of its collegial environment. You then lied and came up with a backwards sports analogy. So I posted a chart showing that Fordham has twice as many Am30 lawyers as does Michigan. Your lies having been exosed, you now claim that Fordham's quality has declined over time. But you have nothing to back that up. You just made it up.
You lie so easily that I almost wonder if you're psychotic.
Why are you so upset about Fordham? Is it because you don't have a summer job and you're jealous that Fordham students do? This is a sociological debate now. Tell me right now, why would you lie so profusely? What in the world do you gain by that? You have no character.
Don't worry, we're not crying over not going to your precious, precious "t14s." (What does that even mean? Nowhere else in the universe do you hear boasts about making a "Top 14" list. It's just weird.)
ahhhhh not this Michigan v Fordham stuff again.
I have too much respect for Fordham Law to believe that Anonymous at 11:12 PM actually goes or went there. Chill out, man.
11:31 This is a poor imitation of a hilarious debate in http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/brokeback_lawfirm_new_york_mag_1.php
11:12
Do you understand what "another" means? I am the guy who made the post picking apart the statistics you used. I was not the original NYU 08 poster. It just happens that I am in the same year as him at NYU. I did not say that Fordham has declined. What I said was that statistic doesnt tell us how Fordham is doing in terms of placement right now. For all we know, Fordham could have declined and the statistics do not disprove that.
About me
1) I did not lie. I questioned the statistics. I did not say that fordham had declined or anything
2) I am not upset about fordham, I even called it underrated
3) I am not upset about not having a job. I have a job at a V10 firm.
And my question for you. How do you know about whether fordham has a more collegial environment than NYU? I kinda doubt it b/c the bottom half and certainly the botton quarter of Fordham are certainly much unhappier places than that of NYU
11:56 don't worry about it. The guy arguing with you just cut and paste arguments from the debate in http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/brokeback_lawfirm_new_york_mag_1.php
They don't really make sense when applied to your posts.
12:04, the arguments made by the fordham student in last night's debate don't make any sense, no matter whose posts they are applied to. the whole "liar liar!" line of attack, and the "you're psychotic!" argument are out of this world. maybe that kind of rhetoric works at fordham but...
What is this "T14" stuff? Top 14? What is the sense of that?
To 12:10 - Hi guy who got called a liar in that debate!
it's well established that t14 is the line, above which a law school is "top," below which a law school will be officially deemed a "TTT."
this truism is recognized by "the most appealing women @ top law schools" webpage, which makes clear that only t14 talent is eligible. http://t14talent.googlepages.com/
Do these girls know they're in this contest?
One of the benefits of attending an NYU grad school is the undergraduate population. If a high-quality applicant had to choose between NYU or a less pretty school (i.e., something up in New England) with the knowledge that they would not be able to enjoy benefits of said undergraduate population they might not attend NYU. The admissions office must step in and protect the Spring Fling
Dude did you just post that with your real name?
isn't ayal rosenthal in jail?
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1170928972980
is it awful that I think that T14 was something invented by georgetown students so that they could feel like they are playing with the big guys?
No, AMIR Rosenthal is in jail.
Hey, let's not forget that NYU only made its reputation in the last 20 years. The biggest reason why I chose NYU over Columbia is because I was sick of the Ivy League reliance on its reputation and the complacency and laziness that accompanies it -- the thing that made us great, under Sexton's leadership is that we are the underdog, we always had to prove ourselves, and still do to this day. Twenty years ago, we were in Fordham's position (lesser regarded, but on the up-and-up), and if we're not careful, we'll switch places with them.
In response to this memo I sent out an e-mail on a list serve most of the students subscribe to. It's reproduced below:
Hi,
As some of you may have heard, last semester at Fall Ball I had a great time drinking, getting ill in Vanderbilt, assaulting a member of the wait-staff, and getting to ride in an ambulance. For some reason, the administration has decided to prevent me from having an equally good time this semester at Spring Fling by limiting me to only 2 drinks. I was hoping some of you may want to make a few bucks by selling me your drink tickets. Send me an e-mail with a price. Cheapest 12 tickets will be purchased.
Thanks,
The next morning, I received an e-mail from the Vice-Dean alerting me that I was prohibited from attending Spring Fling and that if I tried to attend I would be forcibly removed. I was also informed that for my assault disciplinary actions had been initiated against me.
About 4 hours later I received another e-mail informing me that the Vice Dean was "of course aware of the possibility that the e-mail ... was a joke", and if it was that I would face no sanction.
Apparently the administration's a bit touchy about this and doesn't have much of a sense of humor.
Fordham alums take care of Fordham alums better than NYU's; which has really become diluted at this point.
There is not the same sense of cohesive loyalty.
With Fordham year after year pumping grads in BigLaw the situation is only going to get better for FLS grads. I saw it when I was there and see it every day. Where will NYU be in 5-10-15 years given this exponetial strength?
I am in a NY T5 firm.