It's time to start stirring the pot in Texas y'all!

Can someone confirm that Bracewell & Giuliani has matched in NY.

What about the Texas based firms' NYC and DC offices? Have they raised? VE, BB, Fulbright, etc?

That's Rudy's firm - probably a lame joke...

Where is the Kirkland memo?

sort of sucks for K&E mid-senior level people in CA.... Wonder they they did that

K&E vs. WGM - Who has better insolvency practice?

Why they did it?

Who knows, but my guess is that they feel like they compete with NY-based firms for junior associates, but not so much for more senior associates.

anyone else surprised they bumped california to 160, but not DC?

i know i'm probably out of the loop, but did latham bump california to $160 too?

3:55, it sucks way more for the people in Chicago, K&E's flagship office. I can't believe their second rate associates in CA are getting paid more than associates in the office that brings in the most revenue for K&E far and away.

http://www.bmacewen.com/blog/

great discussion of associate salaries on the Adam Smith, Esq. blog. Check it out ...

Los Angeles update. Based on the recent announcement of Kirkland, how many associates are making more than you are?

Firm (# assoc)
Simpson (15)
Sullivan (20)
Skadden (92)
Quinn (86)
Milbank (45)
Proskauer (36)
Dewey (23)
Kirkland (51*)
Hughes Hubbard (9)
Jones Day (71*)

*midlevels at Kirkland are not quite at NY rates; Jones Day information is incomplete.

It looks like over 377 associates are making NY rates in the City of Angels, not counting Jones Day. At the earlier years, Jones Day pushes the total over 400.

Will Latham, OMM and Gibson take notice yet? Are third years at these firms really the equivalent of 1st years at NY firms in LA??

The LA market is not as stratified as DC, but these disparities really are killing morale.

3:55, it sucks way more for the people in Chicago, K&E's flagship office. I can't believe their second rate associates in CA are getting paid more than associates in the office that brings in the most revenue for K&E far and away.

Maybe he sued and went public because a little thing like homophobia made him sick.

Maybe he sued and went public because a little thing like homophobia made him sick.

Wow, the K&E associates in DC must be so pissed. People in Chicago get the same pay as them, while getting a much lower cost of living and the inherent benefits of working in the firm's home office. People in Cali and NY don't get the home office benefits, but they get way more money. The DC people get screwed on all counts.

3:52 No word on any Texas based firms offices in NY, DC, or CA. Does anyone else have intel on them? Fulbright? Baker Botts? V&E? Akin Gump? Bracewell Giuliani? Winstead? Haynes & Boone?

Wow, the K&E associates in DC must be so pissed. People in Chicago get the same pay as them, while getting a much lower cost of living and the inherent benefits of working in the firm's home office. People in Cali and NY don't get the home office benefits, but they get way more money. The DC people get screwed on all counts.

anyone else surprised they bumped california to 160, but not DC?

i know i'm probably out of the loop, but did latham bump california to $160 too?

4:22, if by "inherent benefits of working in the firm's home office," you mean working more hours because the home office generates substantially more work than the satellites.

Re: 4:24

There were posts last week that Akin raised in NYC (160) and DC (145). Not sure about their CA offices.

I have not seen any traffic re: the other Texas firms.

Re: 4:24

There were posts last week that Akin raised in NYC (160) and DC (145). Not sure about their CA offices.

I have not seen any traffic re: the other Texas firms.

anon23 - latham did not, and i am pissed

Anyone know when V&E's EC is meeting this month?

There were rumors that V&E was going to 150K in Texas (before the fake memo came out). They were eclipsed by the fake memo.

The Texas Lawyer should do a piece on Texas firms unwillingness to raise salaries.

how many firms in philly have raised since this began? All I can think of is MLB & DLA. is that it?

Anyone have contacts at Texas Lawyer that can get them on it?

Re: Texas Lawyer

John Council 214-744-7752
Mark Donald 214-744-7745
Brenda Sapino Jeffreys 713-328-6862
Mary Alice Robbins 512-320-8884

I think the reason CA is NY-rate for the first few years and DC/CHI-rate for the last few years is the fact that the CA (SF & LA)'s COL is higher than anywhere except Manhatten, but they don't bring in that much more money than the DC/CHI associates.

Anon 4:17
K&E Chicago may bring in the most revenue, but not the most revenue per associate, which is most relevant.

in an associates meeting, bracewell new york announced that it has matched. individual memos to be distributed.

Working in a "home office" is most definitely not a benefit, especially if that office is in Chicago. Chicago firms are factories, even more so than NY firms in treating their associates as nothing more than fungible factors of production.

Winston & Strawn has matched the $160,000 to $280,000 salary scale for its New York office and the $145,000 to $250,000 salary scale for associates in all its other U.S. offices. This pay scale applies to all associates in good standing. Personal memos were distributed today.

4:56: LA's COL isn't really too different from DC's (but SF's is, as you say, almost as high as NY). So, paying LA associates higher than DC associates probably has more to do with competitive factors specific to K&E (anyone have any info on that?)

GRRRR Kirkland Chicago. Your bonuses are delightful, but your salary is just plain market.

Winston & Strawn has matched the $160,000 to $280,000 salary scale for its New York office and the $145,000 to $250,000 salary scale for associates in all its other U.S. offices. This pay scale applies to all associates in good standing. Personal memos were distributed today.

5:14, COL *is* that much different between LA and DC. Both housing and taxes are so much worse in L.A. Punch the numbers into any calculator you like, and you'll see that 145 in DC goes farther than 160 in DC.

As for market forces, K&E LA's big money maker is IP litigation, and they compete with Irell and Quinn for talent.

4:56: LA's COL isn't really too different from DC's (but SF's is, as you say, almost as high as NY). So, paying LA associates higher than DC associates probably has more to do with competitive factors specific to K&E (anyone have any info on that?)

Can you post the scale for Winston?

TEXAS? TEXAS? Is Texas irrelevant?

The consensus in Texas is that V&E will eventually raise salaries again. Only question is when.

You would think the other firms was catch on and try to gain an edge by being the first mover. But apparently, they are content with letting V&E take all the praise.

BLANK ROME LLP

MEMORANDUM

TO:
All Attorneys

FROM:
David F. Girard-diCarlo, Chairman

Carl M. Buchholz, Managing Partner and Chief Executive Officer

DATE:
February 7, 2007

RE:
Associate Compensation

We are pleased to announce that in response to recent changes in the marketplace as well as in recognition of the significant contributions of our Associates toward the success of the Firm, the Firm is increasing starting salaries for Associates effective January 1, 2007. Starting salaries for Associates in New York will be increased to $150,000, in Washington they will be increased to $145,000, and in Philadelphia they will be increased to $135,000. All other offices will be appropriately adjusted to reflect their respective markets.

Market adjustments are also being made for Associates in all subsequent class years, and the information on these adjustments will be communicated directly to Associates by the Practice Group Leaders over the next week. These market adjustments are in addition to the merit increases and bonuses being awarded to our Associates.

5:22, maybe a better way for me to have put it is to say that LA is much closer to DC than it is to NY.

I *have* checked out the calculators, but I'm guessing we've come to different conclusions based on the same data. No biggie.

With all these LA associates now making the $160k/NYC scale, is there any doubt now that Latham/Gibson/OMM/countless others are below market?

5:24 - The Winston & Strawn memo only states what the recipient's salary is and says that associates are being compensated at "prevailing market rates" according to class year from $160,000 to $280,000 in NY and $145,000 to $250,000 elsewhere. It appears that NY associates meeting a threshold of 2300 hours (including pro bono and certain non-billable hours, with at least 1950 billable) are given the market bonus as well, with those hitting 2100 (total hours with at least 1950 billable) being eligible for some form of bonus.

bracewell is a tx firm and they've already matched in their ny office; v & e may no longer be the lone star trailblazer

White and Case in has a 60 attorney office in LA. Are they at 160? If so add them to the list above at 4:15.

White and Case has a 60 attorney office in LA. Are they at 160? If so add them to the list above at 4:15.

Did Bracewell raise in Texas? If not, they have not done anything. Their NYC office is small (to put it nicely).

I don't even think Bracewell pays as much as V&E in Texas.

6:01 thanks for the info.

Has anyone heard anything about Pillsbury?

thanks for the blank rome memo anon@ 5:44. looks like there is hope for philly firms.

6:09, right you are. Bracewell did an "up to" raise last time whereby they marketed that they had matched V&E, but in fact, they did not in many cases. Bracewell has done nothing in Texas. There is speculation Joseph Dilg at V&E will come through again.

6:10, Pillsbury was late last year too.

Why do we have to leave it up to V&E to get the credit? You'd think other Texas firms woudl realize the goodwill they engender by being first on something like this.

Andrews Kurth was first a few years ago...raise salaries again, AK!

Do you guys really think there's a huge advantage to being the "first mover"?

I mean, I like money just as much as the next guy, but I don't really care if my firm moves first or last as long as the raise is retroactive to Jan 1, just like everyone else's.

Anon at 5:00

"Anon 4:17
K&E Chicago may bring in the most revenue, but not the most revenue per associate, which is most relevant."

K&E Chicago brings in more revenue per associate than either of K&E's California offices.

6:40, I know its huge in recruiting. I also care.

Just think, if not for V&E, Texas may still be stuck at $110K.

Thank you V&E. We love you!!!!

6:40, recruiting is a big issue like 6:42 pointed out. Also, lateral movement out of the slower moving firms is a risk.

6:42, is that so? Would you care to provide a source for that assertion? From what I understand, Krupka's IP group is a MASSIVE moneymaker for the firm. Didn't they work on contingency for the $1.5 BILLION victory in the Michelson case?

6:42, if enough people agree it's important, then it's important, so I'm not really arguing that it's not.

But *personally*, I don't really "get" it. The fact that a firm was "first to 160" wouldn't really factor in my decision to join as long as I could get 160 somewhere else.

Yes, 5:32 PM, Texas is irrelevant. At least when it comes to salary discussions. Money goes infinitely further in Houston, Dallas, etc., where junior Biglaw attorneys own nice cars, live in big houses, and enjoy a dirt-cheap cost of living, with no income tax! All while billing far fewer hours than their coastal compadres in NYC, DC, LA, etc....

Sorry guys - I do love Austin, but my heart is not breaking for Texas lawyers in general. Firms should be allowed to have regional differences in pay scale. To do otherwise makes no sense from a business perspective.

Think about it the next time you're at Starbucks: does the barrista in po-dunk USA make the same amount as the barrista in metropolis USA for doing the same work? No. Why? Cost of living. So what makes you so different?

6:48, agreed. But in Texas, it takes some firms a while to get to market. For example, there was a firm that did not match the $110K rate that was established in 2000 until 2005. So the fact that a firm currently pays market, does not mean it will react to V&E.

Any word on when Reed Smith will go up?

Any word on when Reed Smith will go up?

Any word on when Reed Smith will go up?

Just hit post once!

Lat, can we have a separate threat for the "Any word on...?" posts? Particularly the ones posted by impatient dummies who end up posting three times.

Particularly the ones posted by impatient dummies who end up posting three times.

Particularly the ones posted by impatient dummies who end up posting three times.

(SEE, wasn't that annoying to read?)

To all of you "Any word on...?" posters out there: on the salary comments thread, hit control-F and enter your firm's name. I guarantee if anyone had any word on Reed Smith, Pilsbury, Texas, Mars, the Moon, or anywhere else, they will post it and you will find it.

Thanks.

We in Texas don't think we should get the NYC market, but as of recently, we were getting paid the same as the other large markets in the country, so based on precedent (not whether or not we need it) and the fact that there are numerous firms paying 160 and 145 here, the market should move to 145K in TX.

I don't think this has been mentioned previously on this site (please correct me if I'm wrong), but Freshfields matched STB in NY.

I heard this directly from a friend who works there. Apparently, the raise wasn't retroactive, but it has already taken effect, so only deprives their associates of about 4-weeks at the new rate.

Dear Any word on Shut Up- Shut Ur A**

Dear 7:01:

So you feel the entire Texas market should raise based solely on precedent?

All JDs should be required to take b-school classes.

Law firms are businesses first. Your "precedent" logic might make sense in reference to a stare decisis analysis of case law, but it is completely absurd in the context of a business.

If there's a business case or a cost of living reality that needs to be met, then I say raise. But you said yourself you "don't think [you] should get the NYC market" rate and your desire is not based on "whether or not [you] need it," so it seems you're just hoping to sqeeze more money out of a firm that already likely pays you too much.

I know Pillsbury matched the market, BUT WHAT ABOUT DOUGHBOY?

ny firms didnt raise b/c of cost of living or "business reasons"... they raised b/c simpson did (probably the only one who actually did it for business reasons, retention of assoc)... you're being a little harsh "don't mess with salaries."

Sorry - didn't mean to be harsh. But if Texas firms match NYC salaries, move over J.R. Ewing and Dubbya, I'm movin' to Texas!

MMM (Morris, Manning & Martin), a leading mid-sized (by biglaw standards) Atlanta firm matched the A&B, K&S, PHJW bump to $130k. Reported to the FCDR, available at www.dailyreportonline.com. MMM was second-up-to-the-plate last year when A&B bumped to $115k. Will the rest of the 200-400 lawyer Atlanta firms go next? Will Troutman have to re-raise?

You really think a firm raises just "because Simpson did"?

I think, if Simpson raising had *no* effect on recruiting and retention of other firms, then no other firm would raise. They're not doing it for the abstract prestige...

FRESHFIELDS!

7:27: "You really think a firm raises just "because Simpson did"?"

DUH. Every big firm in the country is raising because of the avalanche Simpson started!!!

white girls with asian guys

white guys with asian guys

asian guys with asian guys

blue guys with purple women

5:24, 6:01 is pretty accurate re: W&S bonuses in NY, but as is tradition with W&S, bonuses and salary increases are discretionary and determined on an individual basis. I was a slightly below 2300 (but was well over 1950 billable requirement) and my bonus was still 15K below market in NY for my year. But some others that were over 2300 got bonuses above market for their year. Its all tied to hours at W&S.

7:49, if you're joking, that's pretty funny.

If you're not, you're not getting the context:

"I think, if Simpson raising had *no* effect on recruiting and retention of other firms, then no other firm would raise. They're not doing it for the abstract prestige..."

So... the "why" behind the raises isn't Simpson-- it's still recruiting/retention.

asian girls with white guys

WHITE

GIRLS

WITH

ASIAN

GUYS

YES!!!!!!!!!

Hey wgwag (and emulators): you're taking this diversity thing a little too far...

Shirts versus skins

Asian or white, no top school grad would want to date a tier 2 student.

Pillsbury has not matched. Not yet, anyway.

What is up with A&P? Legal Times said they raised, but everybody seems to be questioning it on ATL.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I can't take it... Loyola 2L is on another board talking about his tier 2 sh**

8:09 - Does that mean that base salary isn't linked to class year at W&S?

Arnold & Porter has not raise salaries. The law.com article was wrong. Check with any associate that works there.

In response to:

"All JDs should be required to take b-school classes."
AND
"you're just hoping to sqeeze more money out of a firm that already likely pays you too much."

Wouldn't you have learned in b-school that there's really no such thing as being "paid too much" in an abstract sense because you are paid what the market will bear? And you criticize people for wanting the salary market to go up regardless of whether they need the money? What the heck does needing the money have to do with salary? Did you learn that in b-school?

The "precedent" point actually makes a lot of sense. Texas firms obviously think they're getting value (in prestige, recruiting, retention, or whatever) out of repeatedly responding to national salary hikes, so what reason do we have to doubt it will be any different this time?

Just how late was Pillsbury last year?

Did someone say Ralph?

Jones Day Atlanta raised to $135k.

West side walk it out ...

5:24- Base salary is definitely linked to class year at W&S, it's pretty much lock-step just like all other NYC firms for the first five years, I don't know about senior levels though. I would guess that if you're middle of the pack you're ok.

8:09 - thanks for the clarification. Do you know the scale for base? Does it follow the standard 145/155/170 path (non-NY) 160/170/185 (NYC)?

What the F is up with this constant WGWAG bs?

Are these people just talking gibberish, or is there something there?

Just imature law students?

WTF? -- If you can't decode what WGWAG means you don't belong at biglaw. Maybe goodwill is hiring someone of your aplitude.

Simpson changed its mind and lowered salaries to 1996 levels. Dewey Ballantine matched ten minutes later.

White girls with white guys!

Wow, these threads are really degenerating.

People are sick of waiting and have resorted to this silly bs as they wait for their firm to match. If our firms would just match we could all get back to billing (hint, hint). At least it makes me laugh as I so impatiently wait for news.

I would gladly be billing away for just $125k. But I'll ultimately have to take a $50k job.

9:17, Mid-February is when Pillsbury and Thelen Reid matched last year.

http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=118879&d=122&h=24&f=46

Please please please let that blank post be legit! If so...Thank God trickle down econ is finally getting the ball moving in Philly.

blank rome is legit. i am not from BR but, here is an article from the Legal Intelligencer confirming! :)

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1170842573516

Apparently you cannot count on law.com to give you accurate info, it doesnt look like Arnold & Porter actually raised.

Thanks Anon @ 10:40.

Philly is finally getting off it's a$$...though I bet some will wait as long as possible and not have it be retroactive (cheap a$$es!).

10:55, i totally agree. i am dying to hear about my raise. but, i wont be surprised if they dont do it til just before recruitment in aug.

I don't really think Philly is "getting off its A$$" if you read that article posted at 10:40 closely it seems that most of the firms aren't too keen on matching Blank Rome... Also, Morgan Lewis and Dechert were already at 135, so BR isn't really setting the market, just matching. Also, note in the article that these increases were just for the first years, and that later classes won't necessarily get similar bumps...

Do not fear your firm not matching Simpson. Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to SUFFERING!

Hey, I'm the guy who 7:12 said to go to business school. Of course, I did not mean that TX should raise based on precedent in the Con Law sense. I meant that if it had business sense to go to 135K last year when the non-NY market was at that level, then it makes sense to do it again now, in my view. I don't think the TX market should go to 160K; that would be crazy. But, I do think we should now move to 145K if the same reasons given last year (recruiting of top talent from top 10 law schools) still apply.

Philly is different from most bigger cities, since there was already a 2 or 3 tier salary structure amonst the "big" firms. as others have said, MLB and Dechert were already paying more than the others ... so I cant see why Dinker or Reed Smith or Ballard or whomever would need to raise the whole way, but I guess they dont want to far too far behind ....

Unless some Boston firms (Choate, Foley, Nutter and Goulston) move up, Boston will also have a three tier structure.

I heard Luce Forward isn't going to raise in San Diego.

I heard Luce Forward isn't going to raise in San Diego.

I heard Luce Forward isn't going to raise in San Diego

So is Cooley Godward going to step up to the plate?

12:01 in Boston.

The city has got a lot of pretending mofo's.

How does Blank Rome raise before Dechert? Why would someone work Dechert hours for a Blank Rome salary?

Wow 7:10 am, doesn't some dechert associate have a chip on their shoulder!

so, then, dechert hasn't raised yet? any inside info would be appreciated.

If that article posted at 10:40 is correct. and that head hunter is getting requests to lure associates from NY to Philly, those firms are going to have a hard time.

I'm from Philly but live in NYC now and I'm a mid level associate at a big NY firm that recently bumped. The difference between the starting salaries at a firm like Dechert and up here didn't used to be too bad. But, as a midlevel, there is no way I would go home to Philly and go to a firm like Fox Rothschild (or any of the others named in that article). My loan debt is too big and I earn so much more up here that it more than offets the cost of living.

Philadelphia will continue to lose people to NY and DC.

what's the word on Orrick in DC? Good place to work?

Dechert hasn't raised yet. The partners have been in meetings discussing raises for the last few days, but we have no indication. I'm sure they're going to 160 in NY but everywhere else is a question mark.

Biggest LA/Chicago question that is on my mind is this - if Latham is now being outclassed by KE in CA, will they have to go up to $160 eventually, and per their policy of keeping salaries closer across the board, will their Chicago go up with their LA, thus causing another wave (at least mini) in Chicago? I'm not saying now, but in the next two years this is what these places have to be thinking of.

Same thought with the $145/$160 splits in DC, it doesn't all make sense along lines, and won't sustain - and eventually, it's all got to go up more, I'm thinking. Right now there is no equilibrium point in LA and DC, and Chicago'll have to follow to a degree if both continue to ratchet up (and nobody's taking away those big raises to level those markets, we know).

ORRICK DC MATCHED:

Class of 2006: White
Class of 2005: Girls
Class of 2004: With
Class of 2003: Asian
Class of 2002: Guys

hate to admit but 11:48 that is pretty funny.

i've heard jones day raised cleveland to $135K starting, as well.

any word on other large cleveland shops (squire, baker, thompson)??

Thompson Hine has been silent

test

i've heard jones day raised cleveland to $135K starting, as well.

any word on other large cleveland shops (squire, baker, thompson)??

The Chicago firm of Garretson & Santora pays its first-year associates a starting salary of $36,500 based on 2,000 billable hours and mandatory Saturdays in the fall and winter.
I'm not kidding! I worked there after passing the bar, when I could not find a job in my specialty. These are your classmates, guys, who (like me) did not make the top 10-15% of their class.

Call any random associate at 312-263-6635. Or better yet, embarrass the partners. For some of us, life after law school can be a black hole.