Texas should be ashamed of itself.

10:15- Agreed.

The unwillingness of Texas firms to follow the market is now catching up. Having sat on its hands for almost a month now, the Texas firms are finally demonstrating that they are second-tier. Congrats, Texas.

Mintz Levin is on the new NY payscale in the NY office.

More surprising than the TX firms that have not moved are the firm(s) on that list that are NY-based.

Great work! How about Texas and DC lists of shame? That will increase pressure on those that haven't stepped up to bat.

What the hell is Baker & McKenzie doing?????
Are they trying to lose associates?

Prehaps not coincidentially, most on the list of the shame are in the bottom half of the hundred. Are there firms with NY presence that were in the bottom half that did match? This is where the real pressure on these firms would come from.

Wilson Elser has been waaaaay below market (70K) for some time now, I don't see this list prompting them into action.

any news on chicago midlaw shops?

O/T, but I find it interesting that Baker & McKenzie has such a different ranking in the AmLaw 100 versus the Vault 100. A 40 position swing from 3 to 43 is pretty drastic and I can't find another firm with such a difference.

Anybody have any insight into that?

When is Reed Smith so dang cheap? They are all talk, as far as I am concerned.

Texas? -

The same can be said for the Virginia-based firms on the list. It's pathetic, especially when two of the biggest VA firms on the list were bested two weeks ago by a VA firm neither one really considers a peer firm.

10:34:

Vault is based on prestige, AMLaw is based on gross revenue. Baker & McDonald's gross revenue is based solely upon size, as their PPP and RPL are quite low.

10:41
Thanks for the info about B&M. I know they don't have a huge presence in NY, and that's probably why I don't know anything about them. They do have a pretty good tax department though don't they?

Was there any confirmation on Jones Day Dallas?

Don't both of the VA firms (read: MW and H&W) have different fiscal years, I think they don't meet til March or something to do their salaries anyway ... it was said on here yesterday

Thankfully, I am splitting between two carpet bagger firms in Texas......

Any word on how I can score a biglaw job? I would be willing to do "anything" short of brokeback mountaining a partner.

Does anybody know if K&L Gates is going to make any move outside of NY?

Anybody heard anything from Patterson Belknap?

10:49

I think that's correct, but insiders at both places tell me there has been little, if any, acknowledgement that a salary war is even taking place. I saw folks here post correspondence from firms to their associates at least acknowledging what was happening nationally.

Anyone hear anything about Proskauer (DC) raises?

I WOULD BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN A PARTNER TO GET A BIG FIRM JOB

11:02

Hey, I'm two weeks ago, look into me.

Loyola ....I would let you brokeback me for a biglaw job.....are you hot?

11:06

2 weeks ago was for NY, LA, and Boston. I'm asking if anyone has heard if they are raising DC.

We should start a sham list of those firms in NY that are still paying $15K for clerkship bonuses, while others are starting to offer $35K.

David,

Any chance you could compile a "List of Shame" with respect to clerkship bonuses?

Right now it is impossible to know who is paying what. Some information seems to be trickling in on the clerkship bonus open thread, but it would be great to see some of those numbers confirmed by your sources.

This is an associate compensation issue that has been in need of greater transparency for a long time.

Anyone know what the bonus is for a Federal Circuit clerkship? I know they are generally higher than bonuses for the other circuits/distrcit courts. Thanks for any info.

10:51 - yes.

what about foley & lardner. shouldn't they still be on the shame list?

Totally agree. A list of shame re: clerkship bonuses would be an awesome thread to have today. More transparency is definitely needed.

Has anyone heard rumors about Baker & McKenzie and salary raises?

L2LWAG

To biglaw recruiters out there. Please hire more tier 2 grads. We're hard working, loyal and rarely complain about $145k per year. That's three times what we would make at a market tier 2 firm.

I would really love a list of shame for DC

Can you create a list for firms in Los Angeles (including national firms with offices in LA)?

why isn't pillsbury winthrop on the list?

why isn't pillsbury winthrop on the list?

11:23AM: don't know where you heard that Fed Circuit clerks reap higher clerkship bonuses than other circuit clerks. That can't be true, unless you are going to an IP firm or some other kind of firm that specializes in the narrow class of cases that the Fed Cir deals with. For any other firm, I suspect that the bonus is the same or lower.

Why aren't the thousands of firms us tier 2 grads have to work at on the list?

Yes, Jones Day Dallas is confirmed from numerous people who work there.

Hey Texas Lawyer (or anyone else),

Can you email Lat a copy of the JD Dallas memo or other confirmation?

"Can you create a list for firms in Los Angeles (including national firms with offices in LA)?"

I would also be interested in such a list of firms that are paying below market in LA.

Any word on MUNGER or IRELL MANELLA yet?

10:49 and 11:00

H&W does operate on a different fiscal year, and they have announced they are monitoring and will adjust as of 4/1 (read: we will screw you out of 3 months of higher pay).

You gotta be kidding - right? Texas - match? Do you realize how cheap their cost of living is? You can buy a mansion there for the price of a 1 BR in NY or DC. Not to mention that gas is, in general a quarter to 50 cents cheaper a gallon. They don't need to keep up with the NY market...

11:52AM: Quite naturally I was referring to the firms interested in hiring Fed Circuit clerks (patent lit firms or firms with strong patent lit practices). Should have been more clear. Question still stands...anyone have any info on Fed Circuit clerkship bonuses at the big patent lit firms? I have heard they are around $70K at firms like Fish...can anyone confirm?

Bryan Cave? Anyone?

where's wachtell at?

you can also work for Bickell & Brewer in Dallas and make $175,000 to start.

foley bumped

Why are all these people grovelling for biglaw and big pay? Take it from me, uncle Sam takes half of your money, and you don't have time to spend the rest. Ultimately, federal prisoners have (1) better pay per hour; (2) more time to visit with their families; and (3) better health benefits. Well - at least 2 of those are true.

urkiddingright? is 100% right. I used to work at Baker Botts and for that firm to pay the same starting salary as "the Little 3" in LA is an amazing deal for their associates. A 5000 square foot, brand new mansion in Texas costs half as much as the tiny 15 year old house I just bought in LA. The Texas firms have stepped up already.

texas firms have big offices in dc and nyc. those associates do not live in 5000 square foot mansions.

1:15,

Uncle Sam takes half of a ton of money, leaving you with a half-ton of money. How else can a 25-year-old with an English degree take home $115k/year after tax? And if you're good about saving some of it, then you've got financial security at age 30 that most people dream of.

Federal prisons are good work if you can get it, though. Just my luck, I keep getting offers from State facilities . . .

Please put DLA Piper back on the shame list. They only increased pay for Associates that billed enough to receive bonuses. Everyone else got held back.

They've duped the legal community into thinking that they've offered increases when many Associates are being paid below market now.

1:24,

You must not be in NYC, because no 25-year-old associate here is clearing $115k/year after tax.

Secondly, why do so many people think $150-250k a year is "a ton of money"? It may seem like it to someone just out of school, but its hardly the windfall so many people make it out to be. Pretty much middle class in NYC, actually.

1:23, I don't think there's any doubt that Baker Botts, V&E and Fulbright are going to match market in NY and DC. I think the issue is what the Texas firms are going to do in Texas. Just as there was no doubt that Latham was going to match in NY. The issue was what they were going to do in LA. I may be wrong, but I think that's what people are asking about

The other thing about Texas firms is that some other firms have raised in Texas e.g. GDC Skadden Weil Jones Day Fish Wilson Sonsini to name a few so there is a disparity in the market right now

Frankly, I could care less what the TX firms do in NY or CA. I just care what they do in TX.

What I think is happening is not so much deciding what to do in TX (or other home markets), but rather delaying things enough that a retroactive pay raise becomes highly unlikely thereby saving more and not truly matching in every sense of the word.

1:51 - couldn't agree more. very smart comment.

hahahaha @ 12:35 :-)

Patterson Belknap? Anybody, anybody? Bueller?

How did Dechert get dropped from that list? Was there an announcement? They were on the list before WT compiled it but there isn't a memo in the comments. Did they raise?

There are several Dechert memos on the main page. Scroll down, you'll see them.

Patterson Belknap? Anybody, anybody? Bueller?

Patterson Belknap? Anybody, anybody? Bueller?

Patterson Belknap? Anybody, anybody? Bueller?

Yikes, sorry about that - that inane question was only meant to be asked once, I apologize

How did Dechert get dropped from that list? Was there an announcement? They were on the list before WT compiled it but there isn't a memo in the comments. Did they raise?

How did Dechert get dropped from that list? Was there an announcement? They were on the list before WT compiled it but there isn't a memo in the comments. Did they raise?

Patterson who? The whole point of that firm is to siphon off frazzled associates from BigLaw by promising "sane" hours. Why should they rush to raise salary?

fair enough. point taken. I imagine the quotation marks suggest that Patterson who doesn't really offer sane hours as you understand it.

Thelen, in case you are wondering, we are waiting.

any word from thelen in ca or ny?

blue, it seems Pillsbury Winthrop has raised. http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/skaddenfreude_list_of_shame_an_1.php#c017601

didn't realize thelen was so low on both lists (vault & amlaw). perhaps they have other things to worry about.

Thelen will have a hard time matching after its merger with Brown Raysman because Brown Raysman's payscale was already way below market.

Thelen's a solid firm though, and the addition of Brown Raysman adds an extra dimension. They're going to have to step up their compensation to remain competitive though. Top law school grads are ready to be bought, and 145K just isn't going to cut it. Recent grads will go elsewhere.

I'm not so sure how solid Thelen is. There's been a lot of jumping ship over the past year in NY and LA.

Then Thelen should raise to 170 to keep people from jumping ship!

4:26, no chance. They're struggling. Other CA firms have matched in NY, and Thelen has stayed put. They're no market leader.

It's true that they're struggling, but to get any better, they'll need to attract the best. It's the same as with any other top firm on the list of shame. They should at least match in NY. It might hurt in the short term, but it's just what they have to do to compete.

There's a big difference between the first 50 or so firms and then the rest. The first 50 can afford to match like lemmings. The next 50 really struggle. Do they really recruit from the top schools anyway?

Thelen recruits from 30+ schools, including Columbia, NYU, Stanford, Duke, Boalt, Harvard, Penn, UVA, and Yale just to name a few. I agree with everything you've said about Thelen, but I still think that they need to step it up. Even if they just go to 155. There are just too many other options from grads from these top schools.

You sound like a recruiter for Thelen. Who recruits from Yale? Nobody.

any firm taken off the list today?

As an associate in a Texas-based firm, I am expected to bill just as many hours and my billing rate is actually higher than it was when I worked at a DC-based, nationally known firm. I agree that the cost of living is lower in Texas and I personally do not expect my firm to pay NY or DC rates. However, I don't really agree with the argument that because our cost of living is lower, large Texas firms that compete with NY and DC firms both for clients and for associates don't have to at least consider whether to raise salaries to remain competitive with other markets (and with firms like Jones Day that are paying more money in Texas). It doesn't cost as much for my firm to provide me with an office or a secretary, so if costs are all that matters, maybe I deserve a boost for a lower "seat cost," or maybe I should get a transportation allowance because, theoretically, I could take a train or a bus to work in NY or DC and would probably have taxi/car service benefits when I work late, instead of paying for that "cheap gas" that urkiddingright mentioned above.

My point is that there are many factors at play here, and the fact that I can own a house in Texas but could only afford a 750 square foot condo in DC is only one of them. Before the LA, Chicago, and other firms moved a few weeks ago, all the NY people were focused on why they didn't deserve raises based on their NY cost of living arguments, so I guess now they have to tell the Texas associates that we're greedy idiots since they were wrong about everyone else. I don't miss the East Coast at all . . .

I'm no recruiter, just an interested outsider. I guess we just have a difference of opinion here. I think all firms in NYC who want to stay competitive have to match 160. It's certainly valid to think otherwise, but therein lies the beauty of opinion :)

you think any AMLaw 100 NYC firms are ripe for a merger with an out-of-town shop looking to beef up their NYC presence? similar to Dewey last year?

5:37, I've agreed with everything you've said (except Yale). I just don't think the bottom 50 are competitive. If I were a recent top law school graduate (or about to graduate), I'd stay away from the bottom 50 firms from the vault 100. What's the point in being at a firm that has to count every penny? All this means is that if they end up matching, then they'll play games (i.e. screw you) on the bonus. In the end, all of this salary news relating to the bottom 50 is just puffery and window dressing. These firms are struggling to keep up and everyone knows it.

ATC, Texas has much lower billing rates than NY. So, the spread in NY is much higher and the NY firms can afford to pay more. Texas firm clients will pay only so high in billable rates. NY firm clients (of the top firms) don't seem to care how much they pay, so long as they can say they retained the best.

Know it All, the ability to pass raises onto clients through higher billing rates (i.e., without cutting PPP) is a good argument for why Texas firms can't (and probably shouldn't) be expected to pay Texas associates the same amount of money that NY or DC associates will receive under the latest wave of raises. It doesn't explain why firms in other small markets have stepped up as well, although many of those firms likely have offices in NY, DC, or LA and hoped to create harmony by giving raises across the board. I also agree that if firms give raises that they can't afford, they will take refunds through bonuses or other cutbacks, or simply rachet up billable hour expectations. I do think it is a bit dramatic to say that all of the firms on the bottom 50 of the AmLaw 100 are "struggling to keep up" or that they don't recruit from top schools, but I can agree to disagree with you on that point.

At any rate, nothing in any of your posts seems to contend with my basic argument, which is that law firm salaries are only loosely correlated with cost of living differentials. I think that current law firm salaries are just as much a response to the fact that many of us graduate from law school saddled with massive debt, regardless of what city we end up in or whether we are at an AmLaw Top 50 firm. The raises also indicate that more law firms have acknowledged that they have high billable hours expectations and have (thankfully) given up on the "quality of life" song and dance that many firms were pushing when I graduated from law school several years ago.

ATC, I agree that law firm salaries are only loosely correlated with cost of living differentials. I believe they are more closely related to billing rates, and closer still to a firm's perceptions of its prestige and ranking. It's unrealistic to expect a firm like Bryan Cave or Mintz Levin to pay the same as Simpson Thatcher. This is why I arbitrarily distinguish between top 50 and second 50 Biglaw. But in the end, regardless of the difference in their financials, the bottom 50 will probably all match in order to try and dupe top law grads into thinking that their firms are just as financially stable and just as competitive. They are not.

know it all, V50-100 are still competitive firms. They're not struggling as much as you might think. There are thousands of law firms out there, and V50-100 are doing really well in the scheme of things. I'd rather have an extra 15K guaranteed in base (and taken away from bonus) in order to remain competitive with the best law students. It's puffery, it's windowdressing, but it gets the top young legal minds, and that's ultimately what will bring V50-100 firms to a more competitive status. The one thing I wouldn't like to see is a $ raise only to raise minimum billable hour requirements. Despite everything, I'm still a believer in quality of life.

test

For those who want to know about Baker and Mckenzie DC - I got the inside scoop:

Rumor has it that they increased salaries to the 145 starting (retroactive to January 1), but are holding associates back from the annual July promotion. Now associates need to wait until January 2008 for their next promotion (in other words - 18 months from their last promotion in July 2006).

Any word to confirm the Foley & Lardner bump? I'm not hearing anything in the Milwaukee office. Did NY/Chi both bump?