Which firms do you think will match by day's end?

It's about time that someone raised clerkship bonuses. If firms actually want associates with clerkship experience, the paltry $15k that some offer doesn't cut it against the $100k+ salary cut that a clerk (with no prior firm experience) takes when s/he chooses to go straight to a clerkship. Of course, there are plenty of other benefits, but as the salary gap widens, it becomes harder to choose the clerkship. Even if other firms don't raise to $50k, it'd be nice to see more competition on this.

NY firms are going to have to match now. They'll have no choice. Latham and a few other firms were trendsetters at $35K, but it's hard for NY firms to ignore the change when one of their own (and one of the very top) pushes it up that high.

This is great news. It means that if one works in NY Biglaw for two summers and then clerks, they could probably pay off any amount of LS debt in just a year of Biglaw. Not too shabby.

Are there really firms that are only offering $15k? I thought that $35k was fairly standard in most markets by now?

Do we really think the NY firms are going to jump on this bandwagon? I can def. see some of them fighting this upward departure, but I certainly have my fingers crossed that at least the mainstay NY-based firms match. That would be phenomenal.

Until Sullivan's move, no NY-based firm other than Weil Gotshal had raised to $35K (although several other CA-based firms were at $35K). Every other top NY-based firm (except for Skadden, which is at $20K) remains at $15K. The interesting question will be who moves first this week to match Sullivan.

How annoying would it be to have started at the firm as a former clerk in 2006!! So close and yet so far!

So does this apply to incoming associates in 2007 or does come into effect in 2008?

Will someone please explain to me how WilmerHale is "at or near the top of the market" with a clerkship bonus of $20k? What market is that exactly? No, really - do they think we wouldn't notice a THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLAR DIFFERENCE.

Effective now.

Does anyone know if Cravath offers a clerkship bonus, and, if so, how much they offer?

9:01

Are you joking? How old are you? Are you aware of taxes and the cost of living in NY? Good luck paying off 130K in loans based on "two summers" and a "clerkship bonus"!!! You're delusional.

Gallion

Gallion:

to be fair, 9:01 did say "in just a year of Biglaw" which I take to mean that 2 summers + clerkship bonus + living like a student on Biglaw salary for a year.

If that's the case, it's *possible* to get rid of these student debts in a year.

So clerks, you want all the NY firms to match? Then get cracking. Every clerk with an offer from another firm in NYC should call them and let them know that S&C has raised the bonuses. NOW.

You might think it's awkward, but hey, this is business. Why shouldn't a law firm firm expect you to pursue your interests in a rational manner?

Two summers (low tax bracket) and living like student: should net 50k. That leaves 80k left. If you can’t save 80k making 240k before taxes (even in NYC), that’s your own problem.

"I just took a shit while writing this check, and some might still be on there for you."

8:56, as long as the number of judges out there remains fixed, firms won't increase the number of associates who clerked by raising clerkship bonuses. The only reason to raise clerkship bonuses is to compete with other firms for the same fixed number of people. S&C raising to $50k means that they'll be able to snag a few people from Latham, but it won't make more people "choose the clerkship."

As long as we're on the subject, I earned two coveted federal court clerkships: United States District Court for the Southern District of New York (Owen, J.); and United States Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit (Holloway, J.). Following these prestigious clerkships, I joined the preeminent Wall Street law firm of Sullivan & Cromwell, where I represented many of the world's largest and most important business firms, such as the Exxon Corporation, Goldman, Sachs & Co. and Reuters.

-Spielvogel

Lat, this is not the second highest by any stretch. Plenty of firms with IP practices are paying $70K for FedCir clerks.

The place I'm going in Philly only gives clerks $10k bonuses. Here I was, being satisfied. THANKS ATL.

A little birdie in recruiting told me that a major NY firm is set to announce a match...stay tuned. Have others been contacting their firms? What's the news?

What do you think they'll give as bonus to someone who clerked for a Magistrate Judge? Anything?

Any word on what DC firms are likely to do with this move?

save 80K in one year making 240K in NYC? Do you live in NYC?

Let me break it down for you.
80K in federal taxes
20K in NYC taxes
15,500 in 401K (only a moron would not take advantage of the tax benefits of the 401K contribution)

Down to 124,500 K

Average rent for a decent 1-bedroom apartment in NYC - 2500 per month (this is conservative). Total 36K

Down to 88,500K

Average Utilities in NYC (power, phone, cable, etc...) - 500 per month. Total 6000

Down to 82,500K

Average Car expenses in NYC - assume 300 per month payment plus 200 per month insurance plus 200 per month parking (all VERY conservative) - 700 per month. Total 8400

Down to 74,100

Assuming you want to save 80K in that year, (1) you cannot, as you only have 74,100 and (2) you would have NO MONEY WHATSOEVER LEFT FOR EVERYTHING ELSE FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR, INCLUDING FOOD, ENTERTAINMENT, TRAVEL, CLOTHES, DRY CLEANING, MASS TRANSIT, MEDICAL AND DENTAL NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE.

Assuming that you are a moron and made no 401K contribution, you would have 89,600, leaving only 9,600 for EVERYTHING ELSE FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR (a joke and plainly impossible).

Only a completely naive jackass would here "240K" and think, of course you could achieve a net savings of 80K in one year, who couldn't" I'll tell you who -- anyone who lives in NY and pays their own living expenses. You could save 20-40 thousand, sure. Maybe 50K if you were a real cheapskate and never ate out or lived in Queens.

This is why idiot BigLaw first years finish their first year in NYC and say to themselves, how come I have no money in the bank? Because everything costs so damn much. Someone with 125-150K in law school loans will need anywhere from 3-5 years on average to pay off those loans if they live and work in NYC. And 3-5 years if they are careful.

so to the idiot poster above who says saving 80K in a year in NYC should be easy -- you try it, jacko. I would laugh at the result you pompous, naive fool.

geez

gallion, I sense that it is time for you to leave NYC...

Gallion's analysis is totally off-base. First, who -- especially straight out of law school -- keeps a car in the city? There's no need for it, period.

Second, you can get a decent one-bedroom for under $2500, especially if you live in a less-expensive neighborhood, such as the UES or in parts of Brooklyn. Better yet, if you really want to pay off debt quickly, live in a studio or with roommates. You'll save a lot.

Third, utilities come out to a lot less than $500 per month. (I pay about $50 for electric, $50 for my cell, and $120 for cable/Internet. No land line necessary.) Don't exaggerate your numbers.

Which firms with IP practices offer 70K bonuses for Federal Circuit clerkships? Are you talking about the boutiques (Fish, Finnegan, etc) or big GP firms?

Any answer on the Magistrate Judge question?

Re: Magistrate Clerk Bonus

Most respectable firms will pay MJ clerks the same bonus as DJ clerks, especially in NYC.

*yearns*

*daydreams about having a biglaw job*

*realizes he's tier 2*

*feels hopeless*

Those are my actual numbers, and most of my BigLaw friends think I am a cheapskate.

I suppose I could save a few hundred bucks a month by living at 95th and 2d; boy, that would be fun. My analysis presumes a decent junior one bedroom (full one-bedrooms are even more expensive) and not 4 people packed into a two-bedroom apartment with fake retaining walls and 4x4 bedrooms with no closets. I finished college about 10 years ago, thanks very much.

Here are my utilities:
1 - cell phone 68 dollars
2 - internet 49 dollars
3 - electric - varies 150-200 dollars
4 - gas - 40 dollars
5 cable - 120 dollars

That is about 425-75 dollars per month, usually on the high side. Does not take into account pro-rated renters insurance or dry cleaning. So I haven' exaggerated any numbers, thanks very much.

Assuming you didn't want to keep a car in the city, you would have 74,100 plus 8400, which would total 82,500. So after saving your 80K, you would have a whopping 2,500 left for food, clothes, transportation (since no car), vacation, entertainment (you know, things like a social life, significant other) etc...

Good luck.

Honestly. Read one of 40,00 articles available about the cost of living. 240K in NY is the equvalent of like 500K in many other cities. These naive estimates of savings utilize NYC salaries but random city usa prices. I hate to break it to everyone, but the world doesn't work that way.

So to all you pompous 3Ls who troll this board. Good luck heading to NYC and paying off your loans in a year. Good luck paying them off in five years. I can't wait for you to get bitchslapped by the cost of living.

Gallion

p.s. this is why I live and work in Garden City, Long Island. The cost of living is at least 25% less, but it is equally - or more - prestigious.

I would imagine that those are the patent shops, not the GP firms... however, to call Fish et. al small is silly.

Wow. I lived in NYC for a few years before law school making $50k to $80k. I don't know how I survived. I must have imagined my 1BR when in reality I was sleeping on the street.

You were probably living in a sh@thole. Prices have gone up end over end for the last five years in NYC. Literally, a one-bedroom that would have cost 1,500 five years ago costs 2,500 now. Don't take my word for it, try every publication known to man.

Gallion

median salary in NYC is 64K, so apparently half of NY is getting 160K deeper in debt every year.

"Every other top NY-based firm (except for Skadden, which is at $20K) remains at $15K."

Not NY-based, but I've heard that MLB's NY office is at $20K.

Gallion, if you live and work in Garden City and the cost of living is 25% less, why are you even posting about living expenses in the city? Your cost of living is closer to DC than NYC, but you still get the higher salary for a self-proclaimed more prestigious job. So, I don't understand why you are so mad.

Perhaps everyone who cares how much Gallion is paying for the Spice Channel can just exchange e-mail addresses and leave the comments section for folks with info on the clerkship bonus situation.

I have a decent sized one bedroom, doorman building. Got it last year - $2275. I pay $50 in electric each month. Of course, I don't run my vacuum cleaner 24/7 each month. Phone + internet + cable = $130. Utilities total is about $200. So, $2500 in monthly living expenses.

And I don't know anyone with a car in NYC under the age of 40.

How is Garden Cityjust as prestigious as NYC? It's a much nicer place to live, sure, but there are no big firms there, except Nixon - and they're not paying the same salary as bigfirm in NYC. I'm raising the bullshit flag.

At 64K (or 50K, or 80K), the tax bite is a significantly smaller chunk, and you're probably not fully funding a 401k.

Those are significant adjustments to Gallon's breakdown based on 240K which demonstrate that NYC is livable on a lower salary.

But that doesn't mean your costs are fixed such that making 240K means you have exactly 176K more in your pocket than the median earner. Progressive tax rates and non-moronic retirement planning make a huge difference.

Anyone know if Debevoise matched yet?

I work at a top 10 BigLaw firm. Approximately half of my fellow associates have cars. They take advantage of slightly discounted firm parking lot. The other half do not have cars but rent cars or pay for expensive plane or train tickets whenever they want to travel outside the city. It all balances out in the end.

As far as the median 64K for "NYC" goes... no kidding, moron. That includes the 5 million low-income people that live in queens and the bronx and have a cost of living that is miniscule. That is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the majestic isle of manhattan, where it costs an effing fortune to live. And, as I said before, if I want to live on Avenue D or on 103rd and 1st, i could probably save a few bucks.

I will say this again and anyone who has worked in NYC and lived alone for more than 2-3 years (i.e., not with family, not with 4 roommates) and is not a complete hermit eating mac and cheese every night, knows saving such absurdly high amounts is preposterous, plain and simple. I can't wait til you 3Ls get your first check and it says gross 8800, net 3800. and then you pay all your bills. have fun saving 80K per year.

Gallion

mjclerk 11:20: Let's take this a step further. I was an MJ clerk and now work in as a state ag. Can I look for a bonus (or higher starting salary) somewhere when I leave here in another 18 mos. or have those days passed?

My thanks in advance -

11:49 - finally someone with a brain on here.

11:55 - Forget it. However, Gallion & Spielvogel offer $250.00 bonuses to anyone who has gone to law school.

Gallion

"If firms actually want associates with clerkship experience, the paltry $15k that some offer doesn't cut it against the $100k+ salary cut that a clerk (with no prior firm experience) takes when s/he chooses to go straight to a clerkship."

I believe the clerks deserve the bonus because of the enhanced service they provide for the firm because of what they learn as clerks, not because they've "lost" anything for that year or two of clerking. Sure, the salary's lower, but the work is about 100 times more meaningful and interesting than that of a first or second-year associate, to say nothing of the developmental edge that clerks have. It's a prestige-for-money tradeoff.

I didn't realize a top 10 BigLaw firm had an office in Garden City.

Congrats to Jacoby & Meyers on breaking the top 10!

Two points:

1. Sweetening the deal for clerks will not cause more people to clerk; the number of clerks is limited by the size of the judiciary. Instead, it will increase the number of people who apply for clerkship, making it more difficult to obtain a clerkship -- and correspondingly making clerkships more prestigious.

2. Changing the market clerkship bonus may cause a few clerks to decide to go to law firms rather than government jobs, or to postpone their entry into the teaching market. But by and large, law clerks go on to work at law firms, and a clerkship bonus will only bring in additional law clerks if that bonus is set above market. If the whole market shifts, expect little change in law clerk behavior, except that a few more clerks will enter private practice. So the big questions now are whether the market will match, and whether the $50k bonus is a NY-only beast.

You can certainly live in NYC on the cheap. You just have to live like a student: roommates in Queens or Washington Heights; no car (duh! why would you want one?); make your own lunch & breakfast; take the subway instead of cabs; no fancy vacations. Anyone motivated to save money could make it on $2500-$3000 month, and that's quite generous. The only unavoidable expense you have as an associate you don't have as a student would be wardrobe & drycleaning.

11:55 - The availability of a bonus for your time as an MJ clerk probably depends, as it would for a former DJ clerk or even an Cir. Clerk, how long you've been out of the clerkship. If you've had 5 intervening yrs of employment and are just now looking to get a boost, you might be out of luck. If it's only been a year, then I'd say you have a good chance of getting a bonus.

Gallion doesn't know what he's talking about, at least WRT the amount he pays in federal taxes: you may be taxed at a marginal rate of 33%, but that doesn't apply to your entire salary. If he had bothered to use a withholding calculator, he would have found that, assuming he does indeed max out his 401(k) contributions, he would have paid only $58,392 in federal taxes (plus about $5500 in FICA); even without the 401(k) contributions, he would have paid only $63,503 in federal taxes. So, yes, it is indeed possible to pay down $80,000 of loans on total compensation of $240,000.

I heard the Texas firm Baker Botts is paying $50K for a fed dist ct clerkship. I also heard -- from an associate at the firm -- that Weil Gotshal is paying $200K for SCOTUS clerkship. Anyone confirm either of these?

Thank you 12:29, much appreciated. It will be a total of three years out and at that time I believe my service on the inside here will be worth more than the clerkship. We shall see.

My thanks again

isn't the relevant thought process re: savings for a law clerk turned biglaw associate in nyc the following:

1. I lived on ~$60K in NYC while I was a clerk.
2. I will make ~$250K in NYC as a biglaw associate during my "first" year -- ie, second year for purposes of comp. (50K clerkship bonus + 170K salary + 30K end of year bonus)
3. Subtracting ~15K for 401K contrib. (which I agree with Gallion is the only sensible thing to do) leaves ~$235.
4. Translating my big law and clerk salaries into after-tax incomes means:
clerk: ~$60K ----> ~$35K
biglaw: ~$235K -----> ~$120K
5. I am thus making $85K more per year, after taxes, than I made as a law clerk. But I already know that I was able to live in NYC on a law clerk's salary, so I have an extra $85K in disposable income.
6. Seems to me as if there should be a decent amount of money left sloshing around for loan repayment, savings, and a nice meal every now and again.

Don't understand why we need to be itemizing our monthly expenses, when the same work can be done by the assumption that "I lived on X when I was a law clerk in NYC; I can do the same now that I'm a big law assoc."

Gallion ignores Brooklyn.

Agree with zztop. Associates like Gallion fail to save because they like the lifestyle and then rationalize that expenses like that are unavoidable. They are not.

For instance, I'm living in a 650ft 1 bdrm 3 flr walkup around 80th and Lex for $1550. Annual rent is $18600, half the amount quoted by Gallion, and I could easily be living with a friend in Astoria at $300 a month and making the commute.

isn't the relevant thought process re: savings for a law clerk turned biglaw associate in nyc the following:

1. I lived on ~$60K in NYC while I was a clerk.
2. I will make ~$250K in NYC as a biglaw associate during my "first" year -- ie, second year for purposes of comp. (50K clerkship bonus + 170K salary + 30K end of year bonus)
3. Subtracting ~15K for 401K contrib. (which I agree with Gallion is the only sensible thing to do) leaves ~$235.
4. Translating my big law and clerk salaries into after-tax incomes means:
clerk: ~$60K ----> ~$35K
biglaw: ~$235K -----> ~$120K
5. I am thus making $85K more per year, after taxes, than I made as a law clerk. But I already know that I was able to live in NYC on a law clerk's salary, so I have an extra $85K in disposable income.
6. Seems to me as if there should be a decent amount of money left sloshing around for loan repayment, savings, and a nice meal every now and again.

Don't understand why we need to be itemizing our monthly expenses, when the same work can be done by the assumption that "I lived on X when I was a law clerk in NYC; I can do the same now that I'm a big law assoc."

Gallion ignores Brooklyn.

12:16-- sharp dressed man, baby

So, what's the deal? Any other firms move yet?

I will make $50k as a full time lawyer, working at a plaintiff's firm or an ID firm. Top school grads make $250k. Tier 2 grads make $50k. I will also have to make monthly student loan payments of about $1,800.

Is this fair?

white girls w/ asian guys!

Gallion ignores Brooklyn.

12:16-- sharp dressed man, baby

Look at the New York City firms us non top 10% Brooklyn graduates have to work at!

http://nycinsurancelaw.googlepages.com/salarychart

12:46 makes a good point. How do the economics translate for an asian man that wants to attract a young white girl?

Gallion ignores Brooklyn.

12:16-- sharp dressed man, baby

Gallion ignores Brooklyn.

If we all lived like students the world would be better off.

White women are expensive but still cheaper than materialistic Asian(-American) women!

12:48-- how young????

plus, you gotta have the hardware man

12:32 pm

your post would be halfway intelligent if federal income tax is all that is deducted from a paycheck. Unfortunately a significant amount of money is also withheld for social security and medicare. When that all adds up, the number is just what I estimated. So take your "look what I learned in tax class this year about marginal rates" and stuff it.

Oh and I forgot to mention NY state taxes before also, combinewith exhorbitant NYC taxes, they would actually add up to MORE than 20,000.

I am talking about MANHATTAN folks. Not Brooklyn, not Queens, not the Bronx, not New Jersey.

I will say it again. I personally challenge ANY BigLaw associate to save 80K in one year. It is flat out impossible unless you have special living circumstances (e.g., live in a sh@thole, live with mom and dad, rent paid by another, live absurdly far away). Everyone knows this except, of course, someone who hasn't tried it. Which applies to most of the law school trolls on this board. Reality is coming boys. Enjoy it.

this is 12:48 - - proportionally young. Not pervert young. I'm also going to make the assumption that (looking at a graph) as salary increase, concern over hardware decreases

12:48--good answer!

what about white guys with multiple girls? Can't they get some love?

The average clerkship bonus in most firms is now $35,000. But there are a few that pay as low as $10,000. Shouldn't there be some uniformity?

Gallion dude, you're ignoring the premise. The idea here is that a very motivated associate could save a bundle in 1 year if he/she was willing to live like a student/clerk. Your premise is different -- that "nobody living like a lawyer could save that kind of cash." I fully agree that someone thinking they needed to live a Manhattan lawyer lifestyle could save that much.

Newsflash: there are places to live in NYC that are much cheaper (and much nicer) than the generic & costly doorman building you live in on the Upper East Side or wherever it is.

What about white guys with asian guys?

Gallion

when I received the bonus last year (coming from a Dist Ct) it was 15k in DC. A friend went to a very similar firm (from the same court) and got 10k. I can understand a difference from court to court (or different court levels) but you would think, like 1st year salary, bonuses would be standardized.

Gallion dude, you're ignoring the premise. The idea here is that a very motivated associate could save a bundle in 1 year if he/she was willing to live like a student/clerk. Your premise is different -- that "nobody living like a lawyer could save that kind of cash." I fully agree that someone thinking they needed to live a Manhattan lawyer lifestyle couldn't save that much.

Newsflash: there are places to live in NYC that are much cheaper (and much nicer) than the generic & costly doorman building you live in on the Upper East Side or wherever it is.

Another newsflash: you don't need a lot of stuff to be happy, or even entertained, in NYC.

I live in Clinton (look it up on a map), which is one of the cheapest neighborhoods in Manhattan. Reed some articles about how new rents have gone through the ceiling. I don't know a single person paying less than 2500 in rent in manhattan unless they have multiple roommates in a place made for one person or are living a hellish distance from anything.

I take your point about "living like a student" but again, anyone with experience as opposed to dreams will tell you, that pipe dream goes out the window in about six months when you realize living like that, when working 2800 hours, is untenable and will lead to a life of misery.

Reed?????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA

And I was only judicial law clerk to a US Magistrate Judge D. NJ!!!!!

Oh too rich....too rich indeed!!!!!

Well, Gallion, I never took a class in tax; my comments were based on my own experience dealing with my own taxes as an associate in a big law firm.

Here's how it works:

Fed Taxes: 58,392
Social Sec: 5,840 (capped at this amount)
Medicare: 3,480
Total Fed: 67,712

State Tax: 15,495
City Tax: 8,481

Total Tax: 91,688

In other words, even taking into account the additional taxes Gallion points out, he's got $8300 extra, which pushes your capacity to save, even under his extremely generous budget, over $80,000. Sorry for the pedantry, but this kind of whining by associates at big firms is one of the things that makes life there so miserable for cheerful folk like me.

Most of you won't make it two years at a top 20 BigLaw firm. It will crush you and your spirit.

That's where Gallion & Spielvogel comes in. When you are tired of toiling at a BigLaw sweatshop, come join the prestigous barristers of Garden City. We get a tremendous amount of very pretigious "referral" work from certain BigLaw shops. Our prestigious evidence spoliation practice is on the rise, and our affiliation with the highly prestigious Association of Networks makes a coveted job here extremely prestigious. Tuxedo required.

Can we get back to the part where we call out all these firms for not paying higher clerkship bonuses?

"I take your point about "living like a student" but again, anyone with experience as opposed to dreams will tell you, that pipe dream goes out the window in about six months when you realize living like that, when working 2800 hours, is untenable and will lead to a life of misery."

I agree with you that far -- if you're very unhappy with your living situation it won't work. When you're under a lot of pressure there's a certain amount you do have to invest in your own sanity. I just think you could do it in a $1500-$1700 1 bedroom in Harlem (which is in Manhattan and is much cheaper than "Clinton" aka Hell's Kitchen) or Astoria!

Gallion & Spielvogel is no joke. They recently were awarded the 5th annual Award for Achievement in the Field of Excellence!

1:27

I am not whining. I am trying to tell it like it is to these dreamers. I assume that you use 1 exemption on your tax return? Were you to use zero, which is the proper number once you cross a certain income threshold, you would come out nearly EXACTLY what I said. But keep using 1 and one of these years you are going to suddenly owe the government a whole lot come April 15.

But even assuming that what you are saying is correct, that means that to save your 80K, you would have to spend no more than about 10,000 in the entire year on every single aspect of life except rent and utilities. You can't even do that in Topeka.

You may be cheerful, but you are also short-sighted, of questionable tax knowledge, and helping the deluded ATL law student trolls to continue a flase dream of suddent BigLaw riches.

If you want to save to pay off your loans, go to BigLaw in a city where the salaries are high and the cost of living is very LOW -- which is NOT NYC. Try Dallas, Philadelphia, Atlanta, or even Chicago if you are careful.

Yes, seriously. Let's go back to discussing bonuses! Who cares how much it cost to live in NYC?

Before I read all of this stuff about taxes, Garden City, and Galion's cable bill, I thought that this thread had something to do with clerkship bonuses. My mistake, I guess.

Before I read all of this stuff about taxes, Garden City, and Galion's cable bill, I thought that this thread had something to do with clerkship bonuses. My mistake, I guess.

Get back to bonuses

Lat, we need a new thread on this. Gallion and co. have made a huge, self-indulgent mess.

Did anyone find out anything yet from their firms? Did Skadden move yet?

does anyone know what Winston & Strawn pays now?

Who gives a rats ass what Winston & Strawn pays??????

Gallion

Gallion - I do. By the way Mr. Super Prestigious Garden City Firm, s = plural, 's = possessive. I think you meant possessive. Or, maybe I just can't "reed." Dickhead.

you know you were thinking the same thing.

You think I should waste time proofreading posts on ATL? Hehe why bother??? To impress you law school trolls. My all time favorite board troll technique is when no intelligent response can be put together, just attacking someone's typing-as-fast-as-they-can-because-they-actually-have-a-life-outside-of-reading-ATL spelling.

Winstron & Strawn pays 50 bucks a month plus expenses.

Gallion

p.s. kiss off

Gallion, I'm on your side. It must be tough to type and roll your 20-sided and 10-sided dice. Listen you're living in a miserable fantasy land. I don't buy for one minute that you work at a top 10 firm in Garden City . . . because it doesn't exist. Here's the truth, you call us trolls, but you couldn't get a biglaw job in NYC, that's why you're at a small firm on Long Island. Good luck with your DUI practice and fat guido girlfriend. STRONG ISLAND RULZ!

This really makes me laugh. In case you morons haven't realized it (and I'm talking to you 2:04), I am NOT Gallion, and I do not work in Garden City. This is what is commonly referred to as humor. I am pretending to be Gallion (who actually work in Garden City). It is a JOKE based on the fact that Gallion is hilarious. I actually work at top 10 BigLaw. Actually Top 5 Biglaw. I am astonished by people thinking I actually work in Garden City. You people are certifiable idiots.

"You can certainly live in NYC on the cheap. You just have to live like a student: roommates in Queens or Washington Heights; no car (duh! why would you want one?); make your own lunch & breakfast; take the subway instead of cabs; no fancy vacations. Anyone motivated to save money could make it on $2500-$3000 month, and that's quite generous. The only unavoidable expense you have as an associate you don't have as a student would be wardrobe & drycleaning. "

I actually did this my first year as an associate (though with loans, paying my firm back for the bar loan, and the rest, I think it was more than $3K/month) - lived way out in Brooklyn, rented a $900/month studio. I would think long and hard before doing this, though, as it was an absolute bitch. It's easier to live like a student when you have student's hours. The farther away you move from Manhattan, the fewer the amenities you'll have that are open during the hours you won't be working (which will be few) - I'm talking about nearby grocery stores (forget Fresh Direct, friends - they generally don't deliver to less affluent n'hoods), laundry, dry cleaning, etc. To be able to make breakfast and lunch, you need to keep your refrigerator/cabinets somewhat stocked. If you think that's easy with an unpredictable schedule combined with the local options being open 9-7, think again. Ditto for any other tasks you'll do on your own to save money (laundry, apartment cleaning, etc.). Also, the subway is far, far less reliable the farther out you go, especially on weekends. Quality of life is, legitimately, a lot lower in some (not all!) of the outer-borough n'hoods.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it's tougher than people think it is. I moved to nicer, more convenient n'hood this past fall and practically kissed the ground upon my arrival.

Actually a DUI practice in LI could be pretty lucrative. Lots of drunk guidos out there!

Gallion, you seem like a really fun guy.

Thanks 2:19. I am. I'm also honest.

Gallion

Oh yeah, well I'm at top 2 BigLaw, so there! What a loser. No wonder you work 2800+ hours. 2000 on this nonsense, 500 on tetris, 300 at work.

Eric C. at 2:13 : Best post on this entire thread. Let's see how many of these trolls will want to do what you did. My guess: very few, or none. Especially when all their troll friends are yucking it up in Manhattan with ten dollar drinks and 30 dollar dinners.

is gallion loyola 2L?

Gallion sounds like a real tightwad. I guess all he needs is a good supply of Magic cards and the first season of Mystery Theater 3000.

Hey Gallion, I imagine you being a real hit with the ladies. "How about we grab a bite at Wendy's . . . I have coupns."

Yeah -- what of Winston? I assume this is spawned by the massive packet they sent out yesterday to clerks.

Um, have you been reading the thread? I'm certainly not a tightwad. If I was a tightwad I would be saving 80K per year, right?

I've blown more money on carousing than you have on porn, and that is an accomplishment I suspect.

what do you say we get back to clerkship bonuses, Lat?

Hey, your mom's been featured in a lot of gonzo films . . . and I'm a big fan. That would set any fan back a few bucks.

People, I implore you. Gallion, go on another thread.

2:52

Nice that you know the porn industry term "gonzo film". That subscription to Adult Video News finally paid off. Idiot.

That begs the question, how did you know what I was talking about?

Also, big fan . . . big fan. You come from good stock. Big fan.

How did the Sullivan news break? Did you guys get a memo, phone call, or an email from Recruiting?

Any firms break yet?

Gallion,

That's one successful family. You're top 5 BigLaw, she's top 5 BigPorn

3:01

Who the hell cares how the sullivan news broke??? Would you like to know whether the memo was on letterhead or plain white paper? My god, why are all these trolls on the edge of their seat about every minor detail.

GET A LIFE

12:13, a firm’s clerkship bonus need not be market leading to have an effect. All the big firms could match S&C’s $50k and I think behavior would change.

Of course the number of clerks is capped by the number of judges. The difference is *who* takes the clerkships. Those in the running for one of the most prestigious Ct App clerkships and those who have hopes of a SCOTUS clerkship will clerk regardless of bonuses (many SCOTUS clerks decline the $200k bonus to teach, or work for the gov’t).

On the other hand, for people with offers at, or who are already employed by, top BigLaw firms (a group which includes many of those competitive for decent federal clerkships), but who are not gonna land a clerkship with Boudin or a SCOTUS clerkship, what's the motivation? Well, there are two: (1) more interesting and substantive experience and (2) avoiding the drudgery of one or two years of firm life. Both of those are good reasons. My question is, are they worth lost income up to $115k per year ($160 + $30k bonus - $60k clerkship salary - $15k clerkship bonus)? For some, yes; for others, no. But as the gap widens, the answer will become "no" for more people in the group that faces that massive salary gap. In other words, the higher a firm’s starting salary, the more non-clerks they are likely to “yield” from their summer classes. If the gap continues to grow, the quality of applications received by non-feeder judges will decline, and federal clerkships of average prestige will go to people working at places like Gallion & Spielwhatever, rather than, say, Cravath, or Simpson Thatcher, or Davis Polk. Employees/summers in the former group don’t face the massive trade off faced by those in the latter group.

It seems like S&C's bonus rectifies this (as does Latham’s) for people who (1) currently work there or (2) summered there and have an offer to return. If S&C will hold their offer/job open for clerks, which I'm sure they will, they are likely to end up with more associates that have clerked because it's easier for those associates to take the short term salary hit. That’s a long-winded way of saying that the clerkship bonus will realign the distribution of clerks, not to particular firms, but more to particular segments of the market. If places like Cravath, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk, etc. value clerks’ experience and want to keep their % of clerks steady, they should match, or at least raise from their measly $15k.

That's right. Talk about something Gallion cares about . . . like his mom's latest fisting flick.

Fresh Direct delivers to much of Harlem and Washington Heights (which, again, is in Manhattan). And they also have grocery stores and plenty of reliable subway options. I hear they even have dry cleaners, bars, parks, and restaurants up there too!

No doubt it would be a little countercultural to live on the cheap as a 1st year associate in order to pay off your debts in a year or two. But now with all these increases it's certainly *possible* to do it, more than it was a few years ago. That's a very good thing, and it may very well have changed my own job trajectory coming out of law school if I had had the options people graduating in 06 will have.

If you don't want to take advantage of the enhanced possibility of paying off debt quick, then you simply have more conventionally expensive tastes -- in which case you are going to be shackled to BigLaw your whole life anyway even after you pay off your debt, so it's all irrelevant to you.

3:05

Unnecessary and disgusting. Have some self-respect. Pretty easy to be a profane asshole when you can hide behind an "anonymous", eh tough guy?

OK, "Gallion" - - how ironic.

PS Does fisting technically fall under gonzo? Ask your mom for me.

I clerked a few years ago and, back then, everyone was at $15. There was chatter that some other firms were higher, but no one really cared.

Now with S&C having gone up to $50, other peer-firms (the Cravaths, the Simpsons, the Skaddens, the Clearys, etc.) will have to match. It's not just about the clerks, folks. It's about the IMAGE of being a compensation leader.

Firms might differ marginally on whether one provides a tech bonus or one pays for broker's fees, but no firm in the league of S&C is going to want newbie 2Ls flipping through recruiting materials noticing that S&C gives $50 and Davis Polk gives . . . $15.

Of course it does. By the way, 3:09, not a proper use of "ironic". Anyway, Gallion wasn't profane. Annoying, yes. But not profane. That took you. So you were factually wrong in addition to using the wrong term. It appears the morons have entered the board. Lat!!!!

But there are so few clerks in comparison to associates, do you think that the "image" will be a problem. I hope so, but I think after the last round of raises the bonus level may be set.

Yeah, I'm in favor of axing the profane commentors. It's really not welcome here. But I guess Lat doesn't moderate comments for liability reasons?

I actually like Gallion -- breath of fresh air among the obsessed salary dreamers that own ATL.

Yeah, I do. Understand that firms are in a tough spot in competing for all the same talent.

On the recent raises, I'd think it's all the more reason to bring up clerkship bonuses. The opportunity cost in choosing not to go to a firm immediately went up considerably.

Everyone should just calm down. Firms will have to match S&C. What you could do now is call your firm and ask them what their status is. Trust me, they need bodies and they want you!

I love that the Hedgehog reads ATL.

3:18 - Good advice.

Ron - stick to porn and VH1 celebreality shows, mediation isn't your thing. How is it not ironic that gallion assumes a pseudonym to pontificate on the facts of life for NYC attorneys and then calls out someone else for hiding behind one?

That being said, I'm pretty sure the "your mom" routine stopped being funny the last time I had a hit record.

What you talking about, Willis?

p.s. I like Gallion too. How about 400 more posts on whether firms choose to announce their bonus increase during the first half of the hour or the second half of the hour. Or wha font they use in their announcement emails. Or, for the 8 millionth post, pontificate on why smaller market firms can't match (and ruin themselves in the process).

Lat, the salary obsession has made this board a combination of ignorant students and greed mongering biglaw associates of the kind that every other biglaw associates privately hates.

3:09

Mom fisting jokes are really cool. Not.

Did you just use a "not" joke?

Gary - No one asked you to join the conversation. The link is for clerkship raises. Were you too stupid to realize that you didn't have to read and contribute? If you don't care about this, don't read it. It's not like we forced you into this conversation. You're just trying to regulate what others want to discuss. I expect a lot more from a tough kid from the streets of Harlem.

Did Skadden match Sullivan yet?

I have a question: If you have accepted an offer from a firm already, and before you start they raise the bonus, would you get the offered bonus, or the newly raised bonus?

Gallion, do you bill, or blog?

4:05 - you would get the new raised bonus OF COURSE. Get back in class.

4:03 -- here's an idea. Wait until you hear. Or call your firm and ask (I suspect you are waaaay to big of a wimp to do that, they might think something bad and jeopardize your 1% chance at partnership in ten years). Or post 47 more times in the next day asking the same question.

4:01 - nice Drummond reference.

Thanks gary. I can always count on you for sage wisdom - whether it be with clerkship bonuses, or dealing with the Gooch.

I am now competing with Loyola2L for jobs.

We are hiring.

Why would anyone trust a dry cleaner in Wash Heights or Harlem. C'MON. Maybe for your Banana Republic or Ann Taylor separates - not for anything DECENT.

S&C bonus referenced in "New York Magazine": http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2007/03/jim_cramer_manipulator.html

Are there any people who have actually accepted an offer from S&C, and have gotten confirmation of the new clerkship bonus? I e-mailed legal recruiting yesterday, and have yet to hear back.

Plus, are there any updates on how much Gallion spends on pay-per-view?

12.99 per movie

S&C informed me officially on Monday of the $50K. I'm clerking this year and plan to return there in the fall. Ask any associate. It's legit.

Most all of the big Texa firms pay 35k for fed dist and COA clerkships.

Let's hope this news will push some towards 50k.

Big firms in major markets I think would be more willing to raise if the amount of clerkship bonuses, and the actual raises that have been made, were more visible in a list format. Just like the site posted for the salaries increases. A list for the firms in the vault 100 by market would be helpful.

You have no idea how much I pay in utilities per month. You have NO IDEA! I live in Manhattan, and I pay $30 every time I flush the toilet. And that's a CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE! Although, I'm sure it costs less to flush the toilet in Brooklyn.

You have no idea how much I pay in utilities per month. You have NO IDEA! I live in Manhattan, and I pay $30 every time I flush the toilet. And that's a CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE! Although, I'm sure it costs less to flush the toilet in Brooklyn.

So... are the IP firms paying 50K bonuses to Fed. Circuit clerks? Fish? Finnegan? Ropes? Kenyon?