I'd put George Mason on the overrated list.

Did Lattie already do a piece on the recent LawDragon ranking of top law schools? If not, let's throw that into the mix:

http://www.lawdragon.com/index.php/lawdragon/fullstory/law_school_update/

I'd put Vandy on the overrated list.

Post about LawDragon rankings:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/03/top_law_schools_for_practicing.php

Wait a minute Loyola is on the list. Is Loyola 2L just too dumb to take advantage of his school's obvious prestige? (prestige in an "underrated" kind of way)

Loyola Law School Los Angeles
"Candidates are well prepared; have great attitude, common sense, brains and personality."

Judging by Loyola 2L's comments on this board I might quibble with the personality comment.

More Loyola comments from recruiters: "[Graduates] bring a maturity and real-world experience to the practice."

Um, why is Vanderbilt on this list?

I think that maturity might be from sh***ing in your pants for two or two and half years about how you are going to pay off your loans.

Real world experience from all of the free legal clinic you have to do to built up a resume

hastings, underrated

AU deverse to be on the underrated list...and probably higher than where it is. I know 2Ls that were barely top half that got plus summer jobs at BIGLAW. Firms hire but it seems those doing the rankings get caught in the bright lights that are the factories of GWU and Gtown.

Everyone always knocks Yale for turning out clueless graduates with no practical skills. But their bar passage rate (about 95 percent) is pretty consistent with those of other top schools.

(Also, since the YLS class is so small, one person failing has a much bigger impact upon the overall pass rate.)

Where's Cardozo? My sense is that it's placing more lawyers at the top nyc firms these days than St. Johns, Brooklyn, Pace, NY Law School....and just as many as Fordham.

4:22

Not as many as Fordham

4:24, if not as many, than close. But certainly more than the other schools I mentioned.

4:16:

Because apparently, whoever did the survey thinks it deserves a little respect.

Vince DiBlasi is a Yale grad. So is David Boies. Who says Yalies don't got the skillz?

Happily turned down Vandy, BC, Fordham and WASHU for Emory.

Happily turned down Vandy, BC, Fordham and WASHU for Emory.

Vandy gets more respect than it deserves.

Cardozo is a third rate law school. If you aren't on law review, no top NY firm job.

I beg to differ about Cardozo. Not sure if they place more students in BIGLAW then St. John's

Cardozo is third rate; St. John's is worse. It has a terrible reputation these days.

I can totally see the resurrection of the entire JD Jive Website right here right now. Yeay!!

4:29, plenty of non-law reviewers get biglaw jobs. i'd say top third and you have a shot at a biglaw job.

Actually St John's has a great reputation among top firms. I would prefer to hire a St. John's student over a Brooklyn or Cardozo one.

Will the top underrated schools see jumps in the next Vault rankings?

George Mason is underrated, not overrated. It is a solid state school with relatively low tuition, above average Bar pass rate, great faculty and excellent students. The Law & Economics slant is a bit tiresome, and it's also conservative, but the quality of the education I got there was very good. Glad it made it on the underrated list.

and the most overrated law school is ... Michigan. used to be fantastic, but now is only high on US News based on the lag time for opinions of judges, etc.

Fordham underrated? Uh, no.

"Actually St John's has a great reputation among top firms. I would prefer to hire a St. John's student over a Brooklyn or Cardozo one."

Are you insane?

Top 10 overrated law schools:

1. Duke
2. Cornell
3. NYU
4. George Washington
5. Loyola (CA)
6. Iowa
7. UNC--Chapel Hill
8. Fordham
9. Cardozo
10. American

I'm pretty sure Pepperdine is on the rise, with the rising bar passage rates (5th in CA) and Dean Starr's leadership, we'll be jumping up all these lists! (Nice that we're 25 on the underrated)

i'd also beg to differ about cardozo. (that they definitely do not place nearly as many as Fordham in biglaw)

most overrated school - hofstra. it's so overrated that it doesn't even make the overrated or underrated school in the NYC region. And there are only like 10 NYC schools...

UConn is, far and away, highly underrated.

It lives in the shadow of Yale and gets hobbled by low funding from the state but still turns out exceptional grads and grabs quality faculty.

Also offers in-state tuition to out of staters who change residency to CT.

i'd also beg to differ about cardozo.. they definitely do not place nearly as many people into biglaw as fordham...

4:21

AU is underrated only because most people undervalue location.

4:50 PM--
Michigan, Vandy and Georgetown should be on your list.

Top 10 Overrated Law Schools

1. Harvard
2. Penn
3. Columbia
4. Georgetown
5. Vandy
6. Duke
7. UC- Boalt
8. Yale
9. Emory
10. Northwestern

Most Underrated

1. Wash U
2. W&L
3. UGA
4. Widener
5. Villanova
6. Houston
7. SMU
8. Cumberland
9. Minnesota
10. St. John's

Underrated - BY, they now claim one of the elect.

Had to laugh when I read the comments for Chicago-Kent. DePaul never gets any love. Though I have a suspicion that reputation is in flux.

*BYU*

William & Mary Law was the best three years of my life. Completely underrated in every possible way.

I wasn't on Cardozo law review and I'm at a big law firm.

5:13 -- Are you kidding? Tremendous law school. But Williamsburg, Va, the best three years of your life? Get a life.

4:50 was balls-on for the over-rates.

And W&M is underrated.

5:04

So let me get this straight. You think the top ten law schools in the country are highly overrated and a bunch of shit schools are underrated? WOW I think you are really onto something. Or not. Idiot.

Most underrated "Cumberland" HAHAHAHAHA.

Northeastern = underrated

Cardozo has one of the elect, too. I guess Souter thinks it's underrated.

Northeastern = crap.

St. John's has a terrible reputation.

Harvard is not overrated. Anyone who thinks so is foolish.

Overrated: Top 20
Underrated: Bottom 100

Sure.

"Northeastern = crap"
"St. John's has a terrible reputation"

Couldn't get a decent job out of your "top" school, could you? That would explan your comments which are nothing more than a transparent attepmt to make up for your own shortcomings . . .

UConn Law' s ranking, just like Hartford salaries, is much lower than it should be.

Hastings should be on the list. Like Fordham, it gets drowned out by its more prestigious neighbors (Stanford, Boalt).

5:29-

Why is it that 5:04's list of underrated schools is not a feasible list? And, if you will remember Cumberland once fielded the largest contingent on Capital Hill at one point. (I think it is in Lebanon, TN) and a Martindale search reveals that quite a few of their grads are at great firms throughout the Southeast.
But to call one an "idiot" for the sake of being an elitist is, well, being an elitist.

UConn= underrated. However, it is due to its inability to effectively market itself to firms outside of Hartford and to capitalize on its geographic proximity to both the Boston and New York markets.

5:46 give me a break. the best schools in the country arent overrrated and the worst arent underrated. Welcome to reality. Harvard, Yale, Boalt!!!, Penn overrated? Give me a freaking break.

what is overrated? that you learn less? Know what, thanks but I'll take learning less and being guaranteed a BIGLAW job over learning more and having to bust my a** just to get an insurance defense job.

If your criteria is return on investment, t14 schools are not overrated. Fordham might be underrrated, but t14 is not overrated. It delivers what it promises to. A job making 6 figs

What is Hastings? I've never even heard of it. The only schools I nkow here that get overshadowed by Stanford and Boalt are UCLA, Pepperdine, Loyola, and maybe even USC.

5:46 Lover-

Wow, did you figure that one out all by your lonesome? You must be smart. Let me guess, your school is on one of the lists that 5:04 posted. HaHa.

As a graduate of one the most overrated, I tend to agree my school is overrated. It certainly wasn't worth the tuition bills to attend a "presitgious" institution. And yes, I work with others who attended schools on both lists and there is no difference in how they are perceived as practitioners.

School rankings are a joke.

That's exactly it 5:47.
Uconn law's ratings problem is partly one of its own making.

The univ won't give the law school the $$ to play around in the larger markets and, consequently, the school is hobbled.

And the law school doesn't have jack for career services or an effective alumni network. The grads are just cut loose.

What a great recipe for alumni giving.

Hey insecure?

I graduated from a mid-level NYC law school and have been employed at a firm that people on this board would consider a top firm since graduation 5 years ago. Not insecure at all. St. John's is just not as good as Brooklyn, Cardozo or Fordham. Period. There is no debate here. Talk to the hiring partners of the top 100 firms in NYC. Give them a choice of the Editor of the Law Review at each of those four schools. The majority would take, in order, the editors from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn and then St. John's.

"St. John's is just not as good as Brooklyn, Cardozo or Fordham. Period. There is no debate here."

What hiring partners at law firms think doesn't necessarily dictate what's "good." I was on the hiring committee with my firm and found that they did not distinguish at all between Cardozo and Brooklyn (we generally took far more students from Brooklyn, probably just because it's bigger), yet inexplicably didn't recruit on campus at St. John's. I'm a Brooklyn grad, so I don't have some ax to grind with respect to St. John's.

I'd like to point out that St. Johns's bar passage rate this past year (91%) was ahead of Fordham's, Brooklyn's, and Cardozo's and was only a couple of points behind Cornell. This is not a new thing, either. Pretty incredible that they did so well when you consider they've got a night program (generally a drag on bar passage rates, for the obvious reason that it's a bitch to work and study for the bar exam) and probably very few students kicking back with a BIGLAW stipend. There are a lot more requirements at St. John's than at other places, thus their students are familiar with lots of bar subjects ahead of time, but isn't agility in several subject areas yet another way to determine a school's merit?

This is a long way of saying that there's lots of reasons people end up at the law schools they do. There's lots of factors to consider when determining when a school is "good" and when it isn't. I'm not putting St. John's, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc. on par with Columbia or NYU, but I think these distinctions among schools are preposterous and often not rooted in reality. To that end, I think a lot of Fordham grads would've ended up at St. John's, Brooklyn, etc. if they'd done a single point worse on their LSAT and vice versa.

My vote for most overrated law school? Tulane. I didn't know many people in law school who didn't get in there, yet it's considered a semi-national school.

Question: which is worse: New York Law School or St. John's?

I'm at Fordham, for the record.

Loyola2L Hastings is a top notch school with amazing profs and a great clinical program. Note, 1/3 of the sitting judges in California are Hastings grads. It defines underrated.

Meh:

They are equal(ly poor).

For the record, I went to Cardozo, but got in to Fordham. Cardozo gave me lots of money, while Fordham gave me none.

Loyola2L Hastings is a top notch school with amazing profs and a great clinical program. Note, 1/3 of the sitting judges in California are Hastings grads. It defines underrated.

The most underrated, and the best, law school in the country? Georgetown. Sorry, but it's the best school in the nation's capital. Roberts taught there. Katyal teaches there. Cole teaches there. And the list goes on. The best adjuncts, the best profs, the best access to the Court. Do the math.

I cannot believe Howard is listed as overrated.

Correction: I cannot believe Howard is listed as UNDERrated.

Quit squabbling like 2 year olds. We all learn the same law. You're school is only as good as the job it gets you after that its all personality.

Quit squabbling like 2 year olds. We all learn the same law. You're school is only as good as the job it gets you after that its all personality.

which law schools produce the best brawlers--that's the question

You're school is only as good as the job it gets you after that its all personality.

The ability to use apostrophes correctly is also considered a plus.

brawlers? c'mon

my money's on fordham

only as good as the job you get? wow you're vapid

5:46 every person i work with that went to a crap law school sucks. period.

As a graduate of Northwestern, I will say that Illinois, Depaul, Loyola (IL), and Chicago-Kent are all completely underrated. The only difference between the attorneys churned about by these schools is a few LSAT points - that's it.

The kids at these schools are bright. They consistently do well in all of the moot court and mock trial competitions (which are probably overrated too). But these kids can ball - they're my Cinderella(s) for the March Madness of Underrated Law Schools.

OMG I can't believe I missed this. It's just more tier 2 fraud intended to con naive kids out of $, and their futures. The ONLY ranking that matters is the job placement ranking. Prestige, and these other criteria are subjective and ephemeral. A job however is very real and tangible. For job placement, tier 2 schools like Loyola are apparently awful and Loyola's prestige isn't going to pay my student loan payments.

OMG I can't believe I missed this. It's just more tier 2 fraud intended to con naive kids out of $, and their futures. The ONLY ranking that matters is the job placement ranking. Prestige, and these other criteria are subjective and ephemeral. A job however is very real and tangible. For job placement, tier 2 schools like Loyola are apparently awful and Loyola's prestige isn't going to pay my student loan payments.

8:54

no kidding. any other ranking aside from job placement is utterly meaningless. Think you 140K loan debt is going to feel better because your school had a better prestige ranking? Nope. Jobs people, it is only about jobs. Would I go to law school if I could not pay off the crushing debt I would have to incur? No way in hell. People are so stupid. They agree to pay 140K to a bottom tier school and then get mad when they don't get a top job to pay iot off in 3 years. Would you pay 50K for a Hyundai? Nope. But Doofus School will gladly take your 40K per year and in return will give you the opportunity to get a job that can't support repayment of that debt in any reasonable time frame. Good deal!

Shhhhhhh you will blow the secret 9:00.

FYI Loyola isn't in the top 25, and it's only on top of the CA list because that list is in alphabetical order.

Syntax notwithstanding, you know I'm right.
P.S. Being able to use vapid in a sentence won't fix a T3 education.

I would say among Brooklyn and Cardozo are slightly better than St. John's. Brooklyn is in the best neighborhood in Brooklyn near all the courts and Cardozo is in Manhattan, but St. John's is in Jamaica, Queens, which is not appealing for a lot of people. For that reason alone, Brooklyn and Cardozo pull in some better students.

That being said, placement in a BigLaw firm from one of these second tier schools depends a lot on whether a partner who is active in recruiting went to one of these schools. For example, there are a number of Brooklyn and St. John's grads at Simpson Thacher, David Polk, and S&C because there are partners from those schools, but very few Cardozo grads. On the other hand, there are plenty of Cardozo grads at Debevoise.

I would hazard to say that Brooklyn has a slightly higher placement rate than St. John's or Cardozo, but that may just be because there are more Brooklyn grads, not a percentage.

Overall, I would say that all three are underrated. A lot of people go to these school who are very smart and went to top undergrad schools, many Ivy Leaguers, who either didn't do well enough on their LSATS to get into Fordham, NYU, or Columbia or did more partying that studying. They are just so interested in getting into the New York market that it makes more sense to go to a NY school, regardless of rank, than a better school like Emory.

For all those arguing about hiring stats, check this out: http://law.fordham.edu/facts/wom-fact7.ihtml

I love how success is measured purely by one's association with a big law firm. And, yes, I work at a big law firm.

Dunno. I work with in Biglaw with way too many juniors and midlevels from schools like Fordham, Rutgers, Hastings, and worse and even though they're probably the brightest of their bunch it doesn't stop me from thinking I'm in a TTT firm.

"That being said, placement in a BigLaw firm from one of these second tier schools depends a lot on whether a partner who is active in recruiting went to one of these schools."

Absolutely. That's what you count on when you go to a local school.

Very true, 11:01.

7:15 is absoluely correct... w/ that being said Cardozo is definitely overated. Good school don't get me wrong, but the entire institution is delusional regarding its "prestige." But honestly, who cares, go to whatever school, even St. Johns, beat out the competition, grab the brass ring, and and leave the petty squabbling for the L2Ls out their who just can't hack it (notwithstanding the tier 2 standing).

Wouldn't Yale, ultimately, be the most underrated school? The very top law school applicants in the country (those who get into every single school without affirmative action) almost consistently choose Yale, with a few exceptions who choose Harvard. Yet Yale still has less than 25% of Supreme Court clerkships, even though over 50% or 70% of the very best law school students choose to go there.

Similarly, most Yalies don't get a job offer from Cravath. Yet the vast majority of Cravath lawyers from other schools didn't get into Yale, and if they had attended Yale, they would not have been able to stand out enough from the crowd to get an offer from Cravath.

We wouldn't hire half the fools that Fourth Reich S&C does. Second tier? We won't even return your phone call. Mail us something - straight to the trash. Kiss off Tier 2. We don't actually even know the name of any Tier 3 schools, and, frankly, we don't want to.

"We wouldn't hire half the fools that Fourth Reich S&C does."

You just showed that you know NOTHING about Cravath or the top New York law firms. The fact is, Cravath would not hire ANY of the S&C attorneys. How do I know? No one who gets offers from both Cravath and S&C chooses to go to S&C. That means that basically everyone at S&C was rejected from Cravath.

Reed Smith matched, sort of .... $160K in NYC, $145 in DC and Cali, but (and get this) - took away the 2% 401K match and is only giving the raise to those who make 1900 hours last year. Add those two together and I think the firm is saving money!

I'm a SJU grad and I work in-house at an IB and unless you are top 10% & law review the placement office is essentially closed and you have to seriously hustle for a job (I was neither). If it wasn't for the fact that I had a full-ride from financial aid I would have left after the 1st semester. Yes, there are partners at top firms from SJU (in fact one of my classmates just became a partner at STB), but despite the successes that many of my classmates and I have achieved, whenever anyone asks my advice on applying to law school I always say at least go to Fordham (after first telling them to go to B-school). Simply put SJU may produce a few great attorneys (not necessarily myself), but it does not have a good reputation which isn't likely to change.

Correct 1030. Basically, as I and every other tier 2 has said, tier 2 is a game in which only the top 10% win. The rest wasted three years of their lives and a fortune in tuition. I'm top 25% and all I have to look forward to this summer is a $10-15/hour job doing filing and copying for a sweatshop firm. To add insult to injury you have lists like this inexplicably calling tier 2 schools underrated. What a grubby way for Vault to seek publicity and new readers.

11:47:

"Wouldn't Yale, ultimately, be the most underrated school?"

Are you kidding me???

All I was saying is that schools are essentially a brand and the brand is only as good as the options it provides. BigLaw tends to be the measuring stick because it can be the most exclusive.

7:02 - you went to Cardozo, but you won't tell anyone. When people ask you where you went, you just say you went to law school "in New York." Doesn't that say something?

Cumberland is the worst school ever. It's the epitome of why you shouldn't go to law school if you can't get into a good school.

LOYOLA2L:

WHICH Loyola do you attend? LA, Chiago, or New Orleans? (LA made the iunderrated list, fwiw)

10:50 a.m., I was not kidding. Read my whole post before criticizing my conclusion. It is possible for even the best school to be underrated if most employers underestimate the extent to which its students are better than others.

11:57, No Loyola is on the list of 25 underrated schools. Loyola LA is on top of the "Most underrated CA schools" list because that list is in alphabetical order. That list also claims schools like Chapman are "underrated."

I meant to say Santa Clara not Chapman (you get the point.)

Columbia is easily the most overrated of the top 10 schools. While some people come out of there and become good lawyers (they are a pretty smart bunch, after all), there are just so many bombs with Columbia degrees when compared to its east coast peer schools, Harvard, Yale and NYU. I dont know what it is, since I went to one of those other 3, and I dont feel like my school did anything special to prepare me to be a lawyer.

Fordham is an underrated place. If it were in any other city, with that student body (big "if", since NYC is such a draw), it would be a top 15-20 school. Fordham grads are generally as good as people coming out of Duke and Cornell. Actually, either Duke is VASTLY overrated or none of the good grads come to NYC.

University of San Diego School of Law is underrated.
Law Review Submissions=15
(http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/law_school_rankings/)
Faculty Quality=23(http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2005faculty_impact_cites.shtml)
Student Quality=38
(http://www.leiterrankings.com/students/2006student_quality.shtml)
Law Dragon=46
(http://www.lawdragon.com/index.php/lawdragon/fullstory/law_school_update)
USNEWS=65

5:13, what you've just said about Columbia is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Suffolk Law is a good school. A lot of idiots get in, but the top students are as good as anyone.

Emory is not underrated. It was a very dissapointing experience. And many Emory grads would agree. I graduated top 25% of my class and couldn't get a job to save my life. I wasn't alone either, believe me. Top 15% and you could land in Atlanta big law. A handful got job at NY firms. The vast majority of students struggled to find jobs. I landed a gig at a mid-size firm in NJ. In retrospect, I should've just gone to Fordham or even Rutgers.

Georgia definitely is underrated. It's a great law school. Only problem is that it doesn't place many people outside the southeast (mostly b/c grads want to stay in the SE), which perpetuates a regional reputation.

I can't believe Emory is #1 most underrated. It doesn't even have a real advantage over UGA, at least in Atlanta. I think it's ranked right where it should be. I kick myself for not going to GW instead, which has a more national reputation.

I think Rutgers should be higher on the list of most underrated. It's a solid NY area law school with great opportunities, especially if you do decently. I'm a '96 grad when US News ranked it 42nd. It has slipped since then for no apparent reason. So much for what I think of those rankings.

Whether Emory should be at the very top of the underrated list is up for debate, but it is no doubt underrated.

In NJ, of course, Fordham would have been a better choice. But nationally, in addition to Emory's higher (and likely slightly rising) US News ranking, its overall reputation (its medical, business and undergrad programs) place it well ahead of Fordham, to say nothing of UGA. And yes, if Atlanta is one's intended market, attending UGA for a fraction of the cost could be a wise choice. But as someone currently in the top 30-40% at Emory, with a job lined up at a V20 firm in a primary market, I can vouch for its underrated status. The high caliber of its faculty and students is undeniable, a fact which the recruiters polled by Vault seem to grasp more readily than the surveyors at US News.

Also, Suffolk's placement in big law gets better each year. Not great, and the percentage is skewed because they graduate about 450 people a year, but improving. 7 or 8 people at Ropes and Gray in Boston this year. A couple at Mintz Levin.

I didn't even know Emory had a law school (med school, i knew) until I was looking at applying to schools. I'm sure it's a decent school, but I ended up in the west coast and hardly anyone knows anything about Emory out here. Seems to me that recruiting is all local for the most part, except for the handful of truly national schools.

Richie, only 2 Suffolk SA's at Ropes....nice try

Where is your information from?

I attend one of the schools on the top 10 underrated law schools, and while it's nice that the school is getting recognition for having quality students, I don't think that anyone cares. Even if 10 more firms suddenly decide to recruit at the particular school, they will only look at the same people in the top 1/3 of the class, leaving people at the median and the bottom to struggle to find jobs after graduation.

It's great to see AU getting some attention for whatever it's worth. Maybe it is underrated, but it deserves to lose some points for its simply terrible suburban location in DC.

It's great to see AU getting some attention for whatever it's worth. Maybe it is underrated, but it deserves to lose some points for its simply terrible suburban location in DC.

I've been following the chatter about Cardozo vs. Brooklyn vs. St. Johns. Despite what many non-New Yorkers might believe, Cardozo has a very good reputation with large NY firms. I am currently a 3L at Cardozo; only in the top 50% of my class; on a journal, but not Law Review; and no prior experience (came to Cardozo immediately after undergrad). I worked for a large NY-based firm last summer (after 11 call-backs and 9 offers--all firms in the top 50 by Vault), and I interviewed with several additional large firms this year. I got 4 additional offers this year, but decided to stick with the firm where I summered.

About 50% of my friends have secured employment at large firms; 20% at small/medium firms; 15% in public interest/service; 10% are clerking; and 5% have not yet secured anything. I'd say that's pretty good.

Also, although many seem not to be focusing on this, Cardozo's faculty is significantly more prominent than Brooklyn or St. Johns and is comparable to Fordham.

3:11. Are you sure your not a statistician?

I actually with I could provide more stats, considering that's precisely what we're discussing.

[wish]

3:11, I hope you're making that up to upset tier 2 students because if a top 50% at Cardozo really got 11 biglaw interviews, 9 callbacks and offers I'm going to scream. I did way better than that and I didn't even get a screening interview.

Georgetown is clearly underrated because unlike its competitors it has a sizeable evening division program which substantially lowers its mean LSAT etc. Its faculty substantially exceeds its ranking due to its monopoly on the ex & current Admin talent in DC.

3:11, I just noticed your claim that 10% of Cardozo grads got clerkships. That's a laughable lie. Cardozo's clerk placement is about 1%.

I'll assume your "top 50% get biglaw" claim is also a lie.

Why are you fucking with us unemployed tier 2s?

I am about to graduate from Fordham, with a BigLaw job set for the fall. I got into Fordham, Brooklyn and Cardozo. If I hadn't gotten into Fordham (I already lived close by and felt it had a better reputation for job placement.) I would have gone to Cardozo (nothing I've seen has changed my mind). I was really impressed by the way that the administration sold the school, I worked with a number of Cardozo students last summer (all sharp people), and it's in Manhattan.

Mark my words, Cardozo will be rising in the rankings in the years ahead.

Loyola 2L, I am not claiming that those stats represent the school overall. I'm not friends with all 300 (or so) students. That's just a sampling of my close friends at Cardozo. Also, I never claimed that those in the top 50% of the class get biglaw offers; I merely stated that about 1/2 of my friends are working in large firms after graduation.

I think Cardozo is underrated because of it's age (thus young alumni and limited recognition outside of NY). I agree with Fordham 3L that Cardozo will be rising in the rankings in the near future.

You said you were top 50%, got 9 biglaw callbacks and at least one offer, and you don't even know the proper usage of its/it's.

I'm pretty sure you're lying.

Loyola 2L - Why so defensive? I did not say that Loyola was under or overrated. And pardon my improper use of "it's." Perhaps I should be less careless when posting on a blog.

And to bolster my argument, Cardozo's career services office recently published statistics indicating that 30-40 2L students ranked below 50% are working in large NY firms this summer (and a good number of them are in the bottom 25%).

TIER 1 BOYS HAVE SMALL COCKS

L2L--you're a fool

if you're so down and out with the biglaw job hunt, why does your life revolve around this shit?

you like living vicariously huh?

3:11: "significantly" more prominent faculty? It's certainly a difficult thing to quantify, but I call bullshit on that.

As for being in the top 50% and getting lots of offers/callbacks, well, you're an anomaly and more power to you. I don't know how you swung that but, as a graduate of a local school, I'm thrilled to hear it. I went to Brooklyn and was in the top 6% of my class (graduated in 2004). I didn't have a shot at many BIGLAW firms in the city, even with a high ranking, journal membership, and an advanced degree. I'm on the hiring committee at my BIGLAW firm and I can say with authority that we wouldn't consider somebody from Cardozo below the top 10% of the class for a summer associate gig. I actually think that's a bit ridiculous, particularly considering how far into the class we'll go for Fordham (top third or so ), but that's been my experience with local schools. Take it for what it's worth.

As for this:
"And to bolster my argument, Cardozo's career services office recently published statistics indicating that 30-40 2L students ranked below 50% are working in large NY firms this summer (and a good number of them are in the bottom 25%)."

Surely you don't believe everything career services offices tell you. These places are notorious for inflating statistics. I'm not trying to call you out to be a dick, but I do think that spreading this information around is disingenuous, at best. I'd venture to say it's tough as a Fordham student with those rankings to get a BIGLAW summer associate gig.

Now, if you're talking about underrepresented minorities, it's a whole different ballgame, regardless of whether one thinks it's fair or not.

3:11 is lying. She's just some troll who is trying to annoy us. Stop trolling troll. Troll.

Loyola2l- you're name isn't perhaps Nick L?

My name is tier 2 student. Whether named Tom, Dick or Harry we share the same concerns, massive loan payments and no job.

SB, do you go to Loyola? How is it? Are L2L's complaints valid?

"you're name isn't . . ."

What is it with tier 2 students and your/you're and it's/its?

Agree that Hastings should be on the under-rated list. It was a USNews top 20 school until 1995 when it mysteriously dropped to 45. Crowded out not only by nearby Berkely and Stanford, but even Southern California schools that should be about its equal.

Georgetown Law, overall, is nothing more than a factory. Rather ghetto...

I graduated from Georgetown Law and I would have to agree with the concerns that it is a factory, is over priced, over rated, and besides name recognition, I can't really see what the big hype about it was. My degree is no better and no worse than anyone else. I wish I had attended a state school, at least then I would not have the student loans.

Agreed. G-town, '03 here. Andy Cornblatt thinks way too highly of himself, too.

And as for the guy who was slamming the lower tiered schools, I see no difference in those graduates and t14 schools. If anything, they worked their tails off to get to the starting point t14 students are given. They are good lawyers because they had to work harder to get a leg up. They know how to lawyer and typically outlawyer t14 grads. What a prick.

And as for the guy who was slamming the lower tiered schools, I see no difference in those graduates and t14 schools. If anything, they worked their tails off to get to the starting point t14 students are given. They are good lawyers because they had to work harder to get a leg up. They know how to lawyer and typically outlawyer t14 grads. What a prick.

I whole-heartedly agree with your statements. The problem is, many of them will have 120K debt and no real job. Hence, from a risk-reward perspective it is less risky to go to t14.

I went to a t14 and graduated top 25%. It is one thing, now that I know I performed decently well, to wish I'd gone to a lesser school for less money, presumably performed well, and gotten a job with a far lower loan burden. The thing is that it is hard to know how one is going to perform in law school. T14 allows (most) students a return on investment just for being middle of the pack. That is it ONLY positive. Otherwise, all law schools are money hungry dens of socialist thought anyway, and I curse them all...

BIGLAW is not the be all and end all, but BIGLAW definitely equals Harvard, Columbia & NYU. Bottom line with Tier2 is that they over-charge; they should definitely charge no more than $15K a year.

"Also, Suffolk's placement in big law gets better each year. Not great, and the percentage is skewed because they graduate about 450 people a year, but improving. 7 or 8 people at Ropes and Gray in Boston this year. A couple at Mintz Levin."

The caveat with Suffolk is that there is a huge difference between the evening program and the day program.
While both sections have their share of townies, the day program seems to have more than its share of rich daddy's girls and mama's boys who couldn't get into a better law school (this is Boston, there are many better choices). The evening program has a higher percentage of non-traditional law students, many of whom already have jobs lined up with top IP firms because they are or were engineers, consultants, doctors, scientists etc. in their regular jobs. The level of class discussion (and the corresponding pace and level at which the professors know they can teach) is much higher in the evening program classes than in the day program.
The evening program is probably more collegial than traditional law programs because the average age is higher and most students have gained some perspective on the reasons to get a law degree.

The smartest practitioner I know went to Tennessee. He is hands down the smartest person I have ever met and that says something for someone who has two graduate degrees and has been around DC and those kinds of intellects. Hands down. So as far as a return on investment, I would say his investment was well placed. I have seen him annihilate alums from Harvard, Yale, Columbia etc. in the court room and in conversation. So while having a degree written in Latin on your wall is good office decor, it does not translate to a good practitioner. I think more needs to be said about Tier 2 and below. Harvard and the Ivies are good institutions as are state schools. The degree is what one makes of it. Anyone who says they are better because they attended and graduated from a US NEWS T1 school are woefully missing the bigger picture.
Widener Law, a T4 school, has produced some excellent corporate lawyers. Hastings, Suffolk, etc. are all good schools. G'twon was fine, but I think it was overpriced, overrated, and ultimately, I could do the same thing with the same money if I graduated from State U.

"The thing is that it is hard to know how one is going to perform in law school. T14 allows (most) students a return on investment just for being middle of the pack. That is it ONLY positive."

Amen, 9:43. I went to a local NYC law school and did very well my first year. My grades didn't plummet, but I certainly didn't stay as high in the class as I'd started - I graduated around the top quarter of my class. Thank God the dip happened after OCI and not before. I'm now at a BIGLAW firm surrounded by people who did just fine, but not great, in law school. The thing is, pretty much every one of them believes that had they gone to a lower-ranked school, they'd have cleaned up during 1L. They've never really had their feet held to the fire in that sense (which is the biggest benefit of going to a top-ranked law school, I think) and have no idea how difficult it is to be - and remain - in the top 5% (which is what many firms were requiring) of one's class at a local NYC law school.

Addendum to my 10:41 posting: it's hard to be in the top 5% at pretty much any law school.

Georgetown Alum:

Did you even read my post? The issue is not whether your UTenn friend is Justice Cardozo reincarnated. The issue is an economic term called risk v return (ok, I don't really know if this is what it is called in economics). For every one guy who went to a lower ranked school and got a god job, there are two who did not. That might be ok on in state tuition, but the average tier II school is private and still over 25K/yr, and many of the state schools are around 18K/yr as well. the risk of not getting a job that can pay off those types of loans is what makes t14 worthwhile, and nothing else.

10:47,

I was not really replying to your post as much as I was replying the general theme of this thread, i.e., Lower Tiered Schools are not good and don't produce good lawyers.

I agree on the return on investment theory you posited. However, I find the elitist attitude of t1 alums offputting. Many of those who attended T2 or below do so out of necessity. (families, lack of money, did not perform well on the LSAT).

I agree that going to a T1 school is a good return on investment, but not everyone can go, for a variety of reasons.

addendum:

I should add:

plus living expenses

Georgetown Alum:

I agree, where one went to school is not necessarily a good indication of how good a lawyer one is. Sometimes it can be a very crude indication when one has NOTHING else to go on (i.e., Harvard people generally were at least smart emough to get xyz score on the LSAT to get in), but it 1) never proves you are a good lawyer and 2) many lower tiered grads are very intelligent and capable and went to their school for anyone of the reasons you mentioned.

The truth is that in my "top 15" firm in NYC I do not sense that people look down on non-tier I lawyers. Then again, my firm is pretty known for taking more students from low ranked schools than peer firms.

After attending Suffolk for my 1L year and then transferring to an Ivy (not in Boston) to finish law school I can say that Suffolk is an underrated law school (at least the day program, which, despite earlier comments, is very collegial). At my new school I am still in the top of my class, I have a federal district clerkship next year (not on a journal though) and I am returning to the biglaw firm where I was a summer after the clerkship.

The point is that if someone is at the top of their class in any tier, transfers and still works as hard for their 2L and 3L year as they did their 1L year, they will still be in the top of their class. Albeit they may not be as high in the class, but they will still do fine. The sad part is there are plenty of students at the top of their class in a lower tier that are just as smart (or smarter) than students in top law schools; but, because of where they go to school (probably due to poor LSAT scores) they are automatically excluded from the recruiting process. Obviously, for me at least, the LSAT was not the best indicator for my ability to succeed in law school.

If someone is smart and determined to succeed in law school (or in life), they will be successful no matter what school they graduate from.

Baff, is that you?

another thing to consider in deciding whether a school is "underrated" is how much it costs vs. other schools that have the same biglaw job placement (which is probably based mostly on prestige). at least i think that's important.

Fordham is without a doubt the most underrated. Just compare the entering student stats with the top 30 US News list. Two things at work here: 1) a university, which, while good, is almost unknown among non-NY non-Catholics and 2) two undoubtedly top law schools above it in NY. If Fordham were in another location with the same students, faculty, and placement stats, it would probably be between 10 and 15 in US News.

FWIW, and showing my NY bias, Brooklyn, Cardozo and St. John's are probably all underrated on the national scene.

Well, I know someone (not personally and he is an idiot) who after getting wait listed at New Mexico (and no, he didn't want to do Indian or water law) actually moved to Georgia. Why? TO attend the incredibly prestigious... John Marshall Law School. Does anyone else think this is just about the biggest waste of time money, and family? (He's married with a kid) Seems like some people should not bother pursuing their "dream" of being a lawyer. Honestly, what will that do for him in the end? And does Former Suffolk 1L's comment apply here?

One of the things that makes Gtown unique (really, all DC schools to a certaine xtent) are the students in the evening program and the adjunct faculty. Where else can you learn Admin Law from Judge Silberman, Congressional Investigations from Podesta, and have Senate staffers, foreign service members and various other professionals add to discussions? plus, any time something interesting happens in the legal/political community, they go to Capital Hill first and Georgetown is their second stop to discuss it with students, hold a forum or a press conference. You can walk to the Supreme Court or the White House. It is in a perfect location.

BY THE WAY

Re: Ropes & Gray and Suffolk

There are, IN FACT, 6 suffolk 2Ls who are going to be summer associates in Boston this year, not 2.

If you doubt that, please call Ropes partner Richard Manley, who graduated from Suffolk and hand picked the 6 students himself at OCI.

Thanks.

People should stop mentioning Fordham in the same breadth as Cardozo and Brooklyn. I repost the evidence:
http://law.fordham.edu/facts/wom-fact7.ihtml

If you go to Cumberland it is really HARD to get a job when you graduate.

If you go to Cumberland it is really HARD to get a job when you graduate.

I hire at a T5 firm in nyc and the Fordham associates are very bright and see no substantive difference in work performance, especially in the courtroom results between our Fordham or Columbia hires --- especially NYU.

Nationally, it is VERY underrated IMO.