When is Portsmouth Day?

Lat - Do Hartford next. Good mix of national and regional firms and big disparities in pay. Substantial Fortune 100 client base. Lots of people with NYC/Boston ties. There appear to be plenty of others here who have commented on the Insurance City. The CT law tribune has plenty of recent articles about salaries to get you started.

$160K working in Denver or $160K working in NY? Hmmm...

Lat - put the heat on Philly (Morgan, Dechert).

And some of the best skiing in the world is just a little more than an hour away!

Is there anyone on here that works for Gibson/Mofo/A&P, etc. in Denver? I'm guessing those attorneys don't work anywhere near the hours they'd work in those firms' CA/DC offices -- so the "lower billable" thing would really apply across the board. Combine that with seriously low COL, and a move from MoFo SF to MoFo Denver amounts to about a 100% raise to work less hours. I am now near certain that I'll be leaving SF within 2 years....

Philly to $160k!!!

Finally... Everyone's been on pins and needles waiting to hear from Denver. Add today to Tuesday's snoozfest - ATL has jumped the shark. Time to go back to the mailroom at CAA Lat. I'm ashamed to be still reading. Sort of like a soap opera that gets reall crappy in the last season - you have to watch it to the bitter end.

Who cares about Denver? Where's the Portsmouth dirt?

12:39: So stop reading then, instead of bitching uselessly in the comments.

(Tip: If you want to insult Lat, you should send him an email, since he said he no longer reads all the comments.)

I am a 3L and I have decided to move to a national firm office in a smaller market on account of the the lower COL and higher QOL. However, I've heard a great deal about "compression" - smaller annual raises for associates at national firm offices in smaller cities. I don't want to ask co-workers about salaries, so do any of the 3-5 year associates in smaller markets have any thoughts on compression?

The best skiing is in Utah. How about some SLC coverage?

Townsend in Denver is reportedly going to $160K along with the rest of the firm. Come on baby send out the memo already.

1:01, local offices of national firms that have matched the $160k scale pay the same scale, years 1-7 (or wherever they stop and go to "individual basis") -- there is no more "compression" there than in those firms NY/CA/DC/wherever offices. E.g., a Gibson 5th year gets paid exactly the same base salary in Denver as in LA. I think this compression thing is an issue (if at all, I really don't know) only at local (non-national) firms in smaller markets.

1:02 no, the traffic is better in utah, the skiing is better in colo.

anyone have any news on clerkship bonuses in smaller (denver, mpls) markets?

the compression in a lot of these places takes the form of lower bonuses to midlevels in regional offices with inflated base salaries - eg, Denver

Checkpoint Charlie
While you are right that the best skiing is in Utah the best lawyering is not. SLC also has a high lawyer concentration so there is little need to expand salaries in SLC because there are plenty of good candidates that are willing to work. Just look at Wilson, they raised to $160K except in SLC.

Lat please expose the ridiculous Atlanta compression in your next focus market.

130k base topping at 185k 8th year puts this market way down the list.

1:12, it's not compression if it affects years 1-7 equally. if fifth-years in regional offices aren't getting NY-level bonuses, i seriously doubt first-years are getting the same bonuses their NYC counterparts are either. regional office attorneys just get lower total compensation (though MUCH higher when COL-adjusted) across the board--the gaps between, e.g., 3rd and 4th year compensation is no smaller than it is in larger cities.

Anon 1:01: I recently moved back to Ohio from a larger market. Compression is a HUGE issue - much more so than first year salaries. Most firms here bump your salary 2-4K a year AT MOST, and I know for a fact that includes at least one large national firm with Ohio offices. It includes other national firms as well, but I only know it for a fact for one such firm.

Not sure where you are moving, but you have to figure this out. For example, say a firm in a smaller market starts at 125. Maybe when you figure in cost of living and less hours, that's not so bad compared to 160 in New York, D.C., LA, etc. However, after five years, an associate in New York is going to be making 230; meanwhile in the smaller market the associate is maybe making 140 - if they are lucky. And that completely ignores bonuses - which are, uh, bigger in larger markets (to put it mildly). In the end, you are certainly giving up well in excess of 100K a year to live in a smaller market. Obviously, the cost of living difference is not even close to that (unless, as one poster on Greedy Ohio attempted to do, you calculate cost of living only by how much it costs to purchase a square foot of residence).

Of course, I knew all this going in, but moved back anyway. I think in most smaller markets enough people are tied to it for various reasons (mostly family), so there is really no need for firms to compete. But if you have a chance to go to a bigger market, it's tough for me to see how you can financially justify starting your career in the smaller market. (I am sure there are markets where there are exceptions and firms pay the national scale, so hopefully you are going to one of those.)

did Jenner and Block raise?

12:55 (Lat)- Thanks for the "tip" on insulting you more directly.

Yes, no more inferior cities. We must hear about NY and DC nonstop, regardless of whether there is any actual news about salaries from there. A blank space on the blog would be clearly better than a post on Denver salaries, because then self-important NY types would not be physically forced to endure the sight of an inferior city's mention. Let me assure you superior city types that the rest of us are fucking FASCINATED with your quest to make slightly more money, even though it in no way affects us.

1:26, in case you weren't aware, 140 in Ohio is WAY MORE col-adjusted money than 230 in NYC.

230k in NYC dollars is about 80k in Ohio dollars. You can be sad about other aspects of living in Ohio instead of NYC (there are plenty, for sure), but you can't complain about spending power and "compression".

So what will Brownstein Hyatt raise to when they get around to doing so?

Come on, if even Morgan Lewis raised:

Continuing CA List of Shame

1) Thelen Reid*
2) Reed Smith
3) Bingham
4) Perkins Coie
5) Bryan Cave
6) Townsend*
7) A bunch of Chicago firms except for Kirkland & Ellis, Sidley, McDermott, Mayer Brown, DLA Piper, Katten, and Winston & Strawn

* denotes CA-based firm

On previous threads, some people wanted to name names for the Chicago firms instead of saying a "bunch." Please update if you're one of those people.

1:13. Sadly, I think you're right about SLC. The interesting thing though is that certain Denver firms (Holland & Hart, HRO) pay the same in SLC and Denver, so if they raise in Denver they'll have to raise in SLC or risk really pissing off their SLC people. Those are places where the culture really matters and dissent in the ranks is taken more seriously, so that will be a tricky issue for those firms. Also, the skiing is way better in SLC -- mostly because you can live ten minutes from the office and still be in Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude, or anywhere in Park City in about 25 minutes. I have friends who practice there and it's not uncommon for them to hit the slopes for a couple hours in the morning and still be in the office before noon.

This site services a specialized niche of the legal community. Lat believes that that niche includes poor cousins such as Denver, Hartford, and the like. In all likelihood, however, very few of his readers are from those markets, and he's probably making a mistake by diluting the content of his site. The market will work this all out. Hope you have an idea for another site when this one crashes and burns, Lat.

Actually 230K is more like 121K in Cleveland http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=230000&city1=5600&city2=1680

1:13. Sadly, I think you're right about SLC. The interesting thing though is that certain Denver firms (Holland & Hart, HRO) pay the same in SLC and Denver, so if they raise in Denver they'll have to raise in SLC or risk really pissing off their SLC people. Those are places where the culture really matters and dissent in the ranks is taken more seriously, so that will be a tricky issue for those firms. Also, the skiing is way better in SLC -- mostly because you can live ten minutes from the office and still be in Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude, or anywhere in Park City in about 25 minutes. I have friends who practice there and it's not uncommon for them to hit the slopes for a couple hours in the morning and still be in the office before noon.

Do Boston next!

When you do Hartford you should do all of CT - Hartford, New Haven and Stamford

Do Boston next!

PITTSBURGH NEEDS A LIST OF SHAME!!!!!

PITTSBURGH TO $145K!!!!

PITTSBURGH NEEDS A LIST OF SHAME!!!!!

PITTSBURGH TO $145K!!!!

1:59--I provided a list of large (and large-ish) Chicago firms that have CA offices and haven't raised: Schiff, Seyfarth, Baker and Sonnenschein. I skipped Lord Bissell, because it's not a Chicago firm anymore (Locke Liddell acquistion). I did enquire if there were any I missed, but I don't think there are.

what is going on with sonnenschein? did they raise in chicago?

Come on, if even Morgan Lewis raised:

Continuing CA List of Shame

1) Thelen Reid*
2) Reed Smith
3) Bingham
4) Perkins Coie
5) Bryan Cave
6) Townsend*
7) Baker & McKenzie
8) Schiff
9) Seyfarth Shaw
10) Sonnenschein
11) Foley
12) Greenberg Traurig
13) Holland & Knight

* denotes CA-based firm

[pulled from the Chicago list with firms (although not all are Chicago firms, like the last 3) I knew had CA offices and what 2:22 said above]

What about DLA's Chicago office, has it raised?

1:29-Get a life.

2:01: "Diluting the content" of his site? With one post a day about a non-NY-DC-LA market? Please.

Presumably you're a lawyer. Presumably you're good at skimming. If you read the headline of a post and it doesn't interest you -- whether it's about Denver salaries, Linday Lohan, or Justice Alito's law clerks -- just skip it.

2:14 -- is it common to treat Stamford like NY (e.g. Paul Hastings)? And the other two are a separate category sort of?

I agree with that yinzer up there - Do Pittsburgh next. Although I'm pretty sure they only pay bonuses in Primanti Bros. sandwiches and pierogies, the Pittsburgh architecture is fantastic. Also, do more on DC and CA.

shittsburgh sucks

One for the OTHER thumb in 2008!

2:01 ... really? Given the number of posts whining about which city Lat does next, you could've fooled me; seems lots of poor cousins found the internets on their computers.

But seriously, do Hartford next. Believe it or not, some folks chose Hartford over NY b/c of COL and proximity, which is something most of the other regional markets don't have. In other words, I can live cheaply and come visit my overworked NYC friends any w/e I like!

Problem, of course, is that was a rational choice before NYC went to $160k. Given the number of laterals from NY and summers at CT schools deciding between NYC, Boston and Hartford, the Hartford market's going to have to move in order to compete, and Lat can help them along!

2:43: It's my impression that Stamford offices pay more on par with NYC than Hartford/New Haven do.

As for only focusing on large cities, please don't. I work in NYC and tire of the myopia. I'm always curious to hear how much people in other parts of the country get paid.

the only way any group of associates can put pressure on partners is with a credible threat that: 1) current associates will go somewhere else; 2) new associates will be impossible to attract. Hence, all the Chicago and DC firms, even the late movers (e.g., Jenner) will ultimately raise. NYC firms aren't going anywhere unless NYC folks are seriously going to start moving to some other market. You folks in the small markets generally aren't willing to work anywhere else, regardless of the salary delta, so there's not a lot of pressure on, say, Pittsburgh or Cincinnati.

Look, we all stand to benefit from the market's pay raises. All cities should be watching and following, if not matching, the market's leaders in these salary wars. Firms should raise in all cities accordingly. We've all earned JDs, worked hard and are way underpaid for the amount of stress and lack of quality of life we all have.

do Philly next... Philly to $160k!!!

Lat - Please make Atlanta your next addition of mid-market salary mania. Top firms have PPP at $800+, yet starting salaries are still $130k, annaual raises are painfully low due to compression, and bonuses are skimpy at best.

Hartford to $110

Ohh please please please please do Cleveland next. If the whole world moved to their favorite vacation spots, then the whole world would live in Hawaii, Italy, and Cleveland.

My firm just went to $160K and I am loving it. It's seriously the best thing that ever happened to me. Before I was a loser, now, let me tell you, I am a real man. I mean I am so much happier than I was when I made $145K. Chicks finally dig me. I even run faster now. Trust me, all you non-$160K losers out there, keep the dream alive, and maybe, just maybe, you too can be as happy as us loaded, happy and cool $160K a year attorneys!

Hey, yo. GeeneParmesan's back.

SEATTLE needs a Hall of Shame. The COL is higher in Seattle than in Denver and the pay is much lower. Put the pressure on SEATTLE!

SEATTLE needs a Hall of Shame. The COL is higher in Seattle than in Denver and the pay is much lower. Put the pressure on SEATTLE!

In response to Anonymous 12:35, working conditions at MoFo and Hogan are about the same as they would be in any other office. The associates bill around the same hours as they would in other offices. Hogan was notorious for having some of the worst working conditions in Denver, prompting several associates to walk off the job at one point (in 2004, I believe). But, I'll admit it, the 160k in Denver makes a huge difference compared to other cities. I can see Partners at the local firms applying to be senior associates at the Nationals now...

Does anyone know about what the Denver office of litigation shop Bartlit Beck is like?

It seems like a top-notch firm (lots of former federal clerks, including Supreme Court clerks). What do they pay?

Cleveland, Pittsburgh . . . throw in Buffalo for the trifecta of downtrodden rustbelt shitholes.

Please look at Atlanta. K&S and A&B have mid-sized offices in NYC and DC and also influence the secondary markets of Charlotte and the research triangle.

Atlanta is home to the thrid most Fortune 500 headquartes in the US (behind NYC and Houston). THere should be plenty of money to go around!

4:58? Would that include Milwaukee, or "the good land"?

"Atlanta is home to the third most Fortune 500 headquartes in the US (behind NYC and Houston)."

Is that like being "England's loudest band"?

5:36: That was very, very funny.

Lat, please feature Philly soon. We need your help!

I heard Faegre and Brownstein are both increasing salaries $10-$15. The question is will Holland & Hart, or HRO match?

4:39 --- if you aren't sufficiently aware of the differences between Bartlit Beck and typical shops, they aren't going to hire you anyway.

McKenna Long & Aldridge also raised the Denver office base salaries to $130k. Looks like the regionals are being left behind.

Word on the street is that A&P raised Denver salaries to $160k. With Denver COL you could take a limo from Denver to the slopes.

6:40 --- Any CU or DU grad will gladly work for any biglaw shop in town, regardless of whether the firm pays $100 or $160. It's the East coast Ivy League types that will go to Hogan and Hartson over Holland and Hart without batting an eye. The East coasters will burn out in 3 years at Hogan and then move over to Holland and Hart or HRO. After 3 years, the regionals might up the salaries to make up the difference so that the move isn't so painfull

Thanks for the nod ATL. The talk of payraises are the buzz here in the mile high city. Stay tuned...

Can Cleveland has pay raisz discussion?

It seems there is still some question of whether or not Morgan Lewis has raised. Here is the memo (click on name) that was blasted out to the CA offices.

As you can see, other than 1st years, there is no raise. At least not yet.

Philly! Philly! Philly! Philly!
And when you do it, please make sure to point out our mid-level comp which sucks. We get about a 5k raise per year (though some years we do get 10k but not most). After 7 years we're just clearing 200k.

The poster by the name of “Ralbylove” is in no way associated with the individual named Ian M. Ralby, but is instead an alias created without the consent of Mr. Ralby.

HRO & Holland & Hart to $120,000