145K or more in Charlotte, and yet these firms still haven't moved in CA:

CA List of Shame:

1) Thelen Reid*
2) Perkins Coie
3) Bryan Cave
4) Townsend*
5) Baker & McKenzie
6) Seyfarth Shaw
7) Foley
8) Greenberg Traurig
9) Holland & Knight
10) Nixon Peabody

* denotes CA-based firm

Isn't Cincinatti the Queen City?

dechert is at 145

What did we learn from last week's thread about Atlanta put up at 5:00pm on a Friday and that nonetheless drew 100 comments over a weekend? Lat is a tool, that's what.

Not to be too greedy (who am I kidding?) but how does "$145,000, plus a NYC bonus" equal "NYC salaries"?

Please don't say it's a COL thing.

Maybe it's the undescribed third step?

2:23, you need to chill.

2:23 - maybe because all the lazy ATLiens were posting while the Charlotteans were either actually doing their work or going out an enjoying their additional salary.

Now can Cleveland haz pay raize?

Portsmouth, Portsmouth, PORTSMOUTH!

maybe atlanta just doesn't want to be a legal player. or cwt need to open a branch in atl and watch the moths follow the flame.

including the clients.

Charlotte = New King of the South

2:23, I think you misinterpreted Lat's intro to this post (which appears to have been revised).

You mean the intro was an error. I interpreted what was (originally) written the only way it could be interpreted. Not trying to be testy. Maybe this whole getting paid below market is getting to me. My bad.

Townsend just raised to the full NY 160 scale.

What needs to be said is that the top of the pay scale in Charlotte is restricted to the "national" firms with offices in Charlotte (ie Dechert, CWT, Mayer Browne, Hunton etc.). Local NC based firms will NEVER even come close to that level of compensation. As a mid-level associate at an NC firm, I do feel the discrepancy, and can't believe that a first year at any of the nationals makes $80,000 more than I do after bonus. The other side of the coin is that for you to earn the top compensation at the national firm, you WILL be working 2400 hours at the least, with many associates pushing 2500 (so have I been informed). The reality is that NC based firms in Charlotte pay on a $130,000 scale, with A LOT of compression for mids and seniors, and virtually NO bonus (and if you do get a bonus, you will be very displeased - usually only $5,000 in most cases). Bottom line, yes, you can get seriously paid in Charlotte, but all at the cost of any family life or mental health you might want to preserve. It ain't all roses in Charlotte either.

atlanta is a toilet

Please?

Did Mayer Brown not put its Charlotte office on the $160k scale when they bumped LA, DC and Chicago? If not, then they're still at $145k - again, not that that's anything to be sorry about in that market. If they're at $160k, then dang.

Also important to keep in mind is that the national firms paying $145k with NYC bonuses (and who will soon be paying $160k) do almost exclusively finance/cap. markets work. Maybe a token litigator or dirt lawyer, but the vast majority of the associates making this coin in CTL do banking work.

That said, with a few exceptions, most general practice firms in Charlotte are paid on the $130k Atlanta scale, with its paltry bonuses and painfully compressed raises.

Thus, Charlotte is a two-tiered market: the nationals who do virtually nothing but banking work and pay NYC money and the rest of the Charlotte firms.

2:50, a lot of what you say is spot on. But it's hard to turn down that kind of money. Rumors are pretty heavy on the fact that "nationals" in Charlotte will be moving to $160K by September.

CWT Charlotte = SWEATSHOP, and the partners do not have very "friendly" relations with associates.

at least one Charlotte firm pays 145k. Moore & Van Allen. See the NALP form.

at least one Charlotte firm pays 145k. Moore & Van Allen. See the NALP form.

The national firms in Charlotte actually do a very specialized type of banking/finance work dubbed "securitization". You have to have some background to do it and most regular corporate lawyers will have a hard time just plugging in to that type of work. Hours are excruciatingly brutal. My brother works at one such firm and billed 2470 last year. He took NO vacations and worked almost all holidays. He has his resume out to the local NC firms saying the exta money won't bring back the years he's already lost with his kids.

Man, that sounds like a really sweet deal. I grew up in Charlotte, so I should know. The city has everything you could possibly want: Chick-fil-A, Bojangles, 100% humidity, a church on every corner (mainly Southern Baptist), Harris Teeter, Southpark Mall (tons of trendy stores like Lacoste and Louis Vuitton), Rick Flair, eight super fun downtown bars, the Bobcats, the Panthers, a yet-to-be-completed NASCAR Hall of Fame, and a TON of thinly veiled bigotry and racism. Did I mention the NASCAR Hall of Fame!?!?

Sign me up!

The major local players in Charlotte have either moved or are talking about doing so. As far as I know, MVA and Robinson Bradshaw have both already raised.

MILWAUKEE MILWAUKEE MILWAUKEE!

Amen 3:14. Chick-Fil-A is a gift from the gods!

Can we see some numbers on Bangladesh? I hear (on good authority) Atlanta firms are going to just start out-sourcing everything.

MVA $145
RB $115(?)
KC $130
Womble $130
PP $110(?)
CWT $145 going $160
MB $160
Dechert $145 going $160
Sonnenshein $145(?)
Hunton $145

In addition to MVA, Hunton is also paying $145k in Charlotte, as is Alston & Bird, even while A&B continues to pay $130k in Atlanta.

I wonder how many people chose A&B Atlanta over the past few years thinking they may eventually make less than their Charlotte counterparts. The number zero comes immediately to mind. I also wonder how many people signed on with K&S -- a firm far more profitabkle than either Hunton or A&B -- thinking they'd eventually make less than Hunton's Charlotte and Richmond associates. Again, I'm thinking, um, about zero.

I love that you talk about securitization as if it is some form of magic. Fine with me.

I will say that finance/capital markets work is what drives the salary increases IN ALL MARKETS. So why are any of you surprised that the rest of NC pays so much less? Do you really think the price/value of doc review is rising? Get real litigators!

More importantly, I'll say that at the same salary, 2470 in Charlotte beats 2670 in New York. If only all my clients were BAS and Wachovia.

When are you going to do Birmingham

You are right, securitization is not magic, but it is f*cking mindnumbing. Whether its 2470 in Charlotte or 2670 in NYC does not matter at all, in either case, all you are seeing 24/7 is the inside of an office building.

Birmingham? umm, never. What do y'all start at? $60K?

The real question in Charlotte is pay for litigators--we know that corporate folk make (or soon will make) NYC money (or very close). But will litigators be paid something in that ballpark some time soon? What shop pays litigation associates the best?

Mayer Brown seems to have a litigation presence, but only one associate. What's their deal?

3:32 - Not always mindnumbing but I do keep Tylenol nearby. Of course doc review and M&A due diligence are no picnic either. I work in NY and I think many of us know the guy who polishes the lobby floor at 3am quite well. I'm just saying I'd rather live in a bigger, cheaper mansion than a more expensive, smaller condo.

(And to the peanut gallery: yes, I know I can move. thanks.)

I agree the Atlanta exposure was less than desirable and now buried. However, I do appreciate every little bit that helps make the situation here better known.

As far as Charlotte, good for them, but the pay disparity between Atlanta is much too large a gap. I agree with 3:23 no one would ever have thought Atlanta would be leapfrogged by $250,000 in Charlotte.

2:21:

Cincy is the Queen City, but unlike Charlotte, is a TTT.

What about Pittsburgh?

What about Pittsburgh?

I work in a Charlotte securitization shop, and moved here from NYC. Can't say the hours are any better. I do live in a big mcmansion though (at least that's what my wife tells me over the phone), and when I do go to said mcmansion, it's in my new BMW, but sadly again, it's under the cover of darkness so I don't get to appreciate the splendor of my abode or the handsomeness of my car. Beats living in a 2bd/1b 1100 sqft $4500 p/mo apartment in NYC though.

to 3:53 - what kind of work can be found? is it all CMBS/RMBS? what about ABS and CDO?

Charlotte Salaries

160
Dewey
Mayer Brown

145
Cadwalader
Dechert
McGuireWoods
Sonnenschein
A&B
Hunton
MVA

130
Womble
Kilpatrick Stockton
Kennedy Covington

All other locals are still on the "old" 115 scale. On the 145 scale, AB, Hunton & MVA have more compression than the nationals (to varying degrees).

Please do Cleveland before the Cavs are defeated in the Finals. No one will remember us until the Indians win the penant if you don't.

Left off Nelson Mullins. I think they're at 130.

Any word on compression in the Charlotte shops -- especially at the regionals (MVA, Womble, Nelson Mullins, etc.)

wilminton DE next!

And anyone w/ info. on local/regional shop bonuses?

I second focusing on Wilmington, DE next.

TAMPA, TAMPA, TAMPA!!!

Clearly looks like Charlotte is a three-tiered market. Do the NC firms just fight each other over the scraps of the national firms when it comes to recruiting. From a previous post it appears that all but one of the firms at $160 and $145 are larger national firms. Why would anyone ever work at a local firm when they could earn so much more...must be that "lifestyle" and "balance" they offer. Though its going to sound obnoxious, it's hard to pay a mortgage, law school debt, raise a family and still put some away for retirement on $130K...especially since it's roughly only $80K after taxes.

2:21, Charlotte is known as the Queen City as it was named for Queen Charlotte, the Queen of England at the time the city was founded.

Why is Cincinnati the Queen City? Weren't we independent by the time Cincy was founded? Isn't it in fact named for the Society of the Cincinnati, a society founded by Revolutionary War officers? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

The compression at Womble is TERRIBLE. I'm talking raises that don't even cover inflation.... $3,500 one year, $2,500 the next. My annual raises have averaged right about $3k per. Pitiful.

Bonuses are smoke and mirrors. Regardless, no one I know is even busy enough to qualify for one.

Needless to say, my resume is out there....

The compression at Womble is TERRIBLE. I'm talking raises that don't even cover inflation.... $3,500 one year, $2,500 the next. My annual raises have averaged right about $3k per. Pitiful.

Bonuses are smoke and mirrors. Regardless, no one I know is even busy enough to qualify for one.

Needless to say, my resume is out there....

4:21, there are no real bonuses for local firms. They are impossible to get and when you do get them, they are offensively low for the amount of hours you needed to bill to earn them. Local firms fight you tooth and nail over paying you a $5K bounus.

I'm with 3:19--do Milwaukee.

Can Charlotte be that great of a place if the sole focus of the firms is in one area? Suspect, suspect, suspect!

4:28,

The discrepancy in base pay is a relatively new phenomenon. When the local firms moved to 115 about 18 months ago, Cadwalader responded by moving to 117,500. We'll see how it plays out now that there's a meaningful difference.

Charlotte is awesome if you love NASCAR and have no desire to endulge in anything even mildly cultural.

4:28 -

Like Atlanta, the "lifestyle" firms in CTL are quickly evaporating. Most places that resemble "lifestyle" firms (e.g., 1800-1900 billables) are a farse. You still have to bill 2000+ to have any chance at partner. Still better than billing 2400 at a national, but its no picnic, especially if you'r scrambling to find enough work to do.

4:35:

CWT-CLT was paying less than 117.5? That sounds like a boatload of fun.

4:36: Awesome comment! You win teh interwebs!!!

4:29: Cincinnati is known as the Queen City for its history as "Queen of the West," back when it was far and away the most important city in what was then the western US. (Longfellow even mentioned it in a poem.)

Obviously, that time has long since passed, but they still keep the nickname. (Much like "Porkopolis," from back when Cincinnati was the #1 pork processing location in the world, and "City of the Seven Hills," from back when the city limits of Cincinnati only included Mount Adams, Walnut Hills, Price Hill, Fairmount, College Hill, Mount Auburn, and Vine Street Hill rather than the 8 zillion hills in the city limits today.)

If you dump yourself into a local firm, it will likely be a career commitment. You won't get enough training or meaningful experience to lateral anywhere, especially in-house. Why would they hire a schmuck who works at a local shop when they could just as easily get someone, who for better or worse, killed themselves and got substantial experience at a national shop. Working at a "lifestyle" firm is a fake, and it amounts to settling for mediocrity both financially and career-wise. Just an opinion - we each do what makes us happy right?

Lat--how about some Minneapolis coverage?

Hours at some of the "national" firms in Charlotte are really not that bad - 2100 to 2200 hours.

4:46, you must be a partner at one such firm if you actually believe that. Or maybe you just start writing off associate hours after they hit 2100.

For those working in Securitization--aren't your hours only truly "terrible" one week a month? Terrible means 75+.

How about some Des Moines coverage?

5:09, not even close. Maybe just maybe close if you were only working on one transaction, which never happens. And more typical is 72 hours straight at the office with intermittent 45 minute power naps, sessions occurring at least once a month if not more often. This is very common at CWT/Dechert/MB.

5:15 - so you're saying you work more than an ibanking analyst?

5:20, absolutely more than an IB analyst. I know because I'm still here once they have signed off for the night. Or I get the, if you have "any questions, call me on my cell", which transaltes to "I'll be at home while you're turning my innane comments until 4:30am". Great, thanks.

Securitization is the worst. I did it at mayer for two years. Billed an avg of 2500 hrs. At first its ok because as a junior associate you run deals by yourself. But at some point the reality hits you that you are going to be churning out deals called "200X-X" for the rest of your life.

5:26 - any ability to do your work from home?

How 'bout the upper midwest in one shot (Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Detroit and maybe Cleveland)?

5:27, what do you do now?

Minneapolis needs to be addressed. High cost of living and low salaries. 120K is tops here and no clerkship bonuses.

minneapolis is an interesting case. there are a couple of local firms that aspire to national stature, but can't seem to keep up w/ the salary increases. cost of living is higher than milwaukee and salaries are lower.

plus, you have to put up with terrible accents. oh ya, terrible.

securitization sucks

Charlotte is a dump - very "Bible belt"

They have more bible thumpers and fundies then another city in the country.

If you like bigots - who want to tell you how you should live and what you should be - then move there.

and those same bible thumpers are securitization lawyers.

6:14, have you even been to Charlotte? And I'm talking about more than sitting in the rocking chairs at Charlotte-Douglas Int'l. I'm not white and not Christian and grew up there (although I don't live there now, but my parents do), and while I would say there are a lot of churchgoers, and it may be the birthplace of Billy Graham, you're full of shit. That may have been true when Charlotte was the 40th largest city in the country, but that's not true now.

What are the litigation practice groups like at some of the national and/or regional/NC firms as compared to similar firms in ATL? Are the CTL litigation groups as 'high octane' as some of the ATL firms? Any other thoughts?

Charlotte sucks ok, so please stop moving down here yankees.

6:14: Classic. Uses "Bible belt" to try and illustrate that Charlotte is a dump and goes on to insult whole class of people (Christians in Charlotte), and then says that they are the bigots.

I used to work at A&B and hated it . . . but, unless things have changed, I think that all of the people in the CLT office do either IP or high end capital markets work. A&B has typically had a very cheap and provincial attitude re its satellite offices -- i.e., you should be grateful just to have the opportunity to work at a big ATL firm, even if no one in [CLT, Raleigh, DC, or NY] has ever heard of us. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the raise was strictly based on what other national firms are doing in CLT, because that would assume that the powers that be in ATL were willing to lift their heads out of the sand and face reality.

5:15, 5:27 and the rest of you without actual knowledge, you're all full of crap.

M @ 6:14:

Your written advocacy skills trail nobody's. Thanks for opening my eyes - you must be a hell of a lawyer.

While you're trolling, tell me where I should move, Douche.

8:43 - what makes you have actual knowledge when they don't?

9:07 - other than working at MBRM, not much...

9:20 - so Mayer's securitization group isn't like that?

Mayer's not like what? Do people have 75 hr weeks? Sure, sometimes, but not every week. And the comment about 72 hrs straight at the office? Hardly. 1 associate in securitization billed >2400 hrs last year.

And Mayer has real estate, tax, corporate, litigation and leveraged finance in addition to securitization. Not all of us are securitization lawyers. That you can get from the website.

I'm aware that not everyone works in that group. I'm just curious about that group.

What about Miami?

buffalo is the Queen City

Florida, please!

White Girls with Asian Guys
Yeah!

MB's practice in charlotte is weak. All they do is warehousing. As for their other groups besides securitization, can't say I've heard anything about them, although the general opinion about MB's office in charlotte is that it is very stuffy and formal.

10:27 - so who's king of Securitization in Charlotte?

M @ 6:14, anon @ 4:36 & anon @ 3:14--

You realize that by making your overgeneralizations about how CLT is supposedly full of white, Christian bigots you are doing the same close-minded, stereotyping that you are criticizing? If you want a mix of different cultures, Bible thumpers count for diversity too.

Lack of culture, maybe it's a smaller city than yours but we have culture that fits a city our size. How often do you go to MOMA anyway? Joining the museum at Christmas for a tax deduction doesn't make you cultured.

Maybe y'all should consider that most of the nation prefers stock car racing, friendliness, and charm to self-important, baseless claims of superiority.

CLT Defender FTW

11:04, There is no "king of securitization" in Charlotte. Cadwalader does the most volume in therms of number of deals, but they absolutely murder their associates in terms of hours. MD does very limited stufff, so they are not up there. Dechert does a lot of work, but most of it is farmed out of NYC. As far as Dewey goes, no one has a clue of what they are doing. Sonnenshein is basically only doing loan origination and had no real securitization work.

11:04, There is no "king of securitization" in Charlotte. Cadwalader does the most volume in therms of number of deals, but they absolutely murder their associates in terms of hours. MB does very limited stufff, so they are not up there. Dechert does a lot of work, but most of it is farmed out of NYC. As far as Dewey goes, no one has a clue of what they are doing. Sonnenshein is basically only doing loan origination and had no real securitization work.

11:04, There is no "king of securitization" in Charlotte. Cadwalader does the most volume in therms of number of deals, but they absolutely murder their associates in terms of hours. MB does very limited stufff, so they are not up there. Dechert does a lot of work, but most of it is farmed out of NYC. As far as Dewey goes, no one has a clue of what they are doing. Sonnenshein is basically only doing loan origination and had no real securitization work.

I'm all for making Charlotte the capital of Jesusland.

Does anyone know what the deal is with McGuire Woods CLT? It seems like they have really high turnover -- both for partners and associates.

10:27. MB in CLT stuffy and formal? That is very amusing. You obviously have never worked there and don't know anyone who does. I have several friends there. They work hard, like anyone else, but they also play hard. I'm guessing they didn't give you a job or something. Why don't you let the poster who actually works there tell the rest what MB is like instead of espousing your sour grapes?

What about doing Salt Lake City?

What about Sacramento? It's an emerging market, with seemingly increased interest from larger regional and national firms.

What is the market like for real estate litigators in Charlotte? I make $160K in NYC and I'm a sixth year associate. I'm sick of commuting and high taxes and looking for a change. Any input is appreciated. Thanks.

To 8:01,

Because I call a bigot a bigot does not make me a bigot.

Are blacks who call out the KKK also bigots?

Religious fundamentalists are bigots and morons.

They are the same people that fought tooth and nail against interracial marriage and integration back in the day. Today they are fighting against gay marriage and gay civil rights.

Go big blue,

Charlotte is a market that I specialize in. Feel Free to call me or send an email and we can talk further about opportunities in the Charlotte area.

Michael Sugich
Erickson Consulting Ltd.
Attorney Placement Consultant
800-699-5325
Email: msugich@derickson2.com

Charlotte has been a small legal market until recently. BOA and W are laying down the law. "want our business, open in CLT", this is changing everything. It will be nice to have more diversity to our practice areas other than just "Finance", defined as the debt side of the balance sheet.

I manage a legal recruiting practice here in Charlotte, most of my business is derived with NYC, DC and Houston firms and businesses.

Securization is booming, energy is booming and there is a great shortage of top corporate associates. (want to go to HK?)

After Enron collapsed in 2000 we have had an under investment in developing associates in the energy space. Both transactions (ISDA, EEI etc) and regulation pracices and in-house is very active.

Salaries in Charlotte are going to Match NYC and be higher than DC and ATL in the long run. ATL will lag CLT for the forseeable future.

We are about to see a third round of increases in NYC, these people are nuts. It could be as high as 190K. Why nuts, well they should increase third year salaries not first years!

Give as a call 704.847.0007, we are always open

Looks like Charlotte is moving to $160k (retroactive to June 1 at Mayer).

Not so fast, 4:53.

UM - I'm a Summer at a Wall St. firm but I want to work down south in either ATL or Charlotte. I realize that the pay disparaties are tremendous and the compression is an ugly word to all of you, BUT I want to go in house around 4/5 year - what is the best city for me to have the most in house opportunities?

(Also - I will be practicing corporate law ONLY - securitization here I come!)

Thanks!

DC Law Student - if you will be practicing corporate law only, why do you say "securitization here I come")?

The answer to your question depends on whether you want to do corporate work or financial work, in house. If you want to do financial work in house, go to CLT. If you want to do corporate work in house, go to the best firm you can, whether it's in Atlanta or Charlotte.

The firm I'm at now does a lot of "securitization" and that seems to dominate the CLT market - which is why I say here I come. Finance work is fine with me, corporate work is fine - the reality is - I have loans they need to be paid and as long as I'm not doing litigation and I'm making bank - I'm flexible.

When you say the best firm I can - who would you name?

The firm I'm at now does a lot of "securitization" and that seems to dominate the CLT market - which is why I say here I come. Finance work is fine with me, corporate work is fine - the reality is - I have loans they need to be paid and as long as I'm not doing litigation and I'm making bank - I'm flexible.

When you say the best firm I can - who would you name?

The firm I'm at now does a lot of "securitization" and that seems to dominate the CLT market - which is why I say here I come. Finance work is fine with me, corporate work is fine - the reality is - I have loans they need to be paid and as long as I'm not doing litigation and I'm making bank - I'm flexible.

When you say the best firm I can - who would you name?

The firm I'm at now does a lot of "securitization" and that seems to dominate the CLT market - which is why I say here I come. Finance work is fine with me, corporate work is fine - the reality is - I have loans they need to be paid and as long as I'm not doing litigation and I'm making bank - I'm flexible.

DC Law Student:

The reason I asked is that a "Corporate Law" practice is very different from a "Securitization" (or even "Finance") practice.

Corporate law = business organization, M&A and securities work.
Securitization = structured financial products for capital markets.

As for which firm, it should be obvious. There are about 3-5 "top" finance firms in Charlotte. I'm not counting out-of-towners that are only shells of their former selves but I am counting 2-3 locals.

You can figure them out in the interview process.

I'm not sure what to tell you about going in house with a securitization practice, however. Nothing against it, but my idea of an "in house securitization practice" = investment banking.