IROC-Z, IROC-Z, I come from New JerSEY!

I used to work in NJ and there are two sides to the coin. On one side, it can be noted that NJ isn't NYC and therefore an associate shouldn't expect the same money. It is true that taxes are less and compared to some NY firms, the lifestyle is better. On the other side, the hours are not that much less at the majority of the top NJ firms; i.e. my firm's requirement was the same 2000 as my NY counterparts and associates were expected to work 2000 or more. The difference in lifestyle does not make up for the difference in pay which is felt not only in the salary base ($125,000 vs. $160,000) but also in the bonuses. For example, as I remember, as a 5th year I had billed in excess of 2300 hours and received a bonus that would not have covered the taxes on my friend's bonus in NYC and he billed less and was 2 years my junior. Further, while the majority of NYC big firms pay the market $160,000 to 1st years, the top NJ firms are not all at the $125,000 level, so you may be working at a top NJ law firm and making a starting salary of closer to $100,000. While I never expected to receive the same monetary gains as my NYC counterparts, I do believe the disparity is too much especially considering the caliber of candidate that top NJ firms look to hire. Time will tell.

everything follows new york. the rest of this shite is just filler b/c you can't come up with new material

So, what's Day PItney's deal? New jersey law journal reports two-tiered salary schedule with every office except NY going to 120k.

However, as seen in the Hartford discussion, that doesn't seem to be true...

And what is Day Pitney's bonus structure???

Nothing else will happen in NY until DC, Chicago, and CA finish coming around to the 160 scale. In that spirit:

DC Mid-Tier Firms
(The Firms Formerly Known as the DC Vault of Shame)

17. William & Connolly
36. King & Spalding
40. Baker Botts
48. Jenner & Block
50. Fulbright & Jaworski
58. Vinson & Elkins
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
68. Foley & Lardner
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
79. Crowell & Moring
86. McGuire Woods
87. Squire Sanders
88. Arent Fox
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
95. Dickstein
96. Venable

Jersey firms expect excellent credentials, long hours, and strong loyalty from their associates-- new or more senior. In exchange they offer lower pay, lower profile cases, and a daily commuter nightmare.

They must pay more, NOW, or they will whither and die.

It requires NO thought for a reasonably competent law school grad. If you can land a job in the City, GO. Alternatively, Philly will do -- same work, more pay.

Anyone who works in Jersey either must (and there is no shame in that, at least you got a job at a firm), or is scared of NYC or Philly.

Overcome your fear and anxiety, and help put those turnpike sweatshops in the ground.

what about branch offices of the NJ firms - whether they're located in NYC or elsewhere? Same expectations...higher taxes (ie NYC), $35k differential in salary...

Is there ANYTHING on whether NJ firms with offices in major cities would raise closer to that level or continue the pay disparity? Like the above comment stated, there is probably not much of a difference in hours and lifestyle at all minus the salary...

Source at DayPitney Hartford told me that a partner on the executive committee there was assuring other Hartford firms that it would not raise to $120k. Truth or deliberate misinformation?

Some of what Chrissie writes is true, but the biggest plus about NJ is that most of the bigger firms will let you get your feet wet taking depositions and going to court much sooner than the NY firms if you're in litigation. I don't know much about the corporate side.

regardless of whether its "truth" or "misinformation," it may be illegal

does anyone even know what associates beyond the first year gets? Is there a ton of compression (i.e. 5k raise instead of 10k raises)?

it is interesting that out-of-state firms (Morgan Lewis, Troutman Sanders, Latham, etc) pay more than NJ-based firms (Lowenstein, McCarter, etc.). Any comments on how the locals can get away with paying less?

anybody know what a typical mid-level associate bonus looks like at a big NJ-based firm?

I meant NJ offices of out of state firms.

What is McCarter's payscale?

I think RJ (12:14) and Chrissie (12:28) summed up NJ perfectly. The slightly lower billable expectations do not justify the large disparity in pay w/ NY firms. I went to law school in NJ, and a lot of students who had the stats to get into a NY firm declined b/c they had this delusion that they were NJ people and couldn't hang w/ the pace in NY. Perhaps like RJ above, they probably now wish they had jumped on that NY firm.

12:48 mentioned Troutman

Let's get an ATL thread!

ATL to 1:45!

the truth is the NJ firms bank on getting people who buy the company line that the hours will be less, for whatever reason -- I want a life, I want to spend time with my young children. Once your in, they know you cannot go back to NY, so they work you however hard they want and don't have to raise the pay to compete. All it takes is 5 to 10 suckers a class. Or, as stated by someone above, 5 to 10 folks who couldn't get into NY

Also, the compression and bonuses in NJ are RIDICULOUS. Three thousand a year raises in some places. The bonus structure I am familiar with is 20k max for 2400 hours

1:04 is absolutely correct. Most of the larger NJ firms bleed associates due to the pay vs. hours. Still, they just keep bringing in 5, 10, 15 fresh faces a year to fill in the cracks. I know some who have left after only a few months.

My experience is raises of five a year at best. Compression is, as 1:04 put it, ridicuous. And bonuses? What bonuses? Maybe you'll get thrown a couple extra thousand at the end of the year, but don't expect anything even close to five figures. Ever.

It seems that compression is far worse in the so-called secondary markets. Does this hold true for everyone? In order to get a good raise and good bonuse without billing 2600 hours, should an attorney only go to a top-5 market?

For those who care (and, yes, I know there are few who do), what about the sad state of attorney salaries on Long Island? For anyone who thinks they have it bad in New Jersey, the situation is far worse on Long Island, where starting salaries for almost every firm are well below $100K, bonuses are almost non-existent, the cost of living is through the roof, and the tax situation is unbearable.

To echo an earlier comment - Does anybody know the BONUS structure at Day Pitney?
All I know is NALP says they pay 120 in Stamford and Morristown (2 markets that are extremely similar), and they expect 1900 billables....anyone?

Some people just really love the Garden State, I guess.

Seriously, some of those Jersey firms emply top students from excellent schools.

It's a complete mystery.

I'm beginning to think there is an internal gag order on DP's bonus structure......

Yes absolutely, Long Island firms are probably THE worst. Most of the "bigger" places start from 60k on, and with the exception of Nixon Peabody, nothing is over 100. Heavy compression (max 5k/year?). Worst of all is the COL - people think NYC is bad. LI is worse. And to make it on a salary that is nearly 1/3 of NYC.

The only, note only, positive of Long Island is the hours. In around 9, out by 6-7. Every day. No weekends, hardly.

Agreed 1:39.

Lat - the hell with all the other markets. At least they're in 6 figures. How about focusing your attention on LONG ISLAND and how shafted everyone is? So close to NYC and NJ and CT, yet 1/2 to 1/3 of the salary. Absolutely despicable.

But are there law firms on LI that are at least comparable to Riker Danzig?

No, I guess not.

What's so bad about Riker?

1:59 - I mean Riker as a standard for a very good regional firm that most NY-ers haven't heard of but which is an excellent firm nonetheless. My question is are there really firms on that level on LI?

So how long will NJ firms hold out before they raise salaries to within spitting distance of NY??? Or will it never happen?

It seems as though NJ firms get a lot of business by underselling NY firms. That being said, why don't they raise incrementally every time NY raises?

Long Island? I thought it was a stretch to discuss Jersey this quickly. If Long Island is discussed any time soon, I'm never reading this blog again. Or, better yet, if Long Island is discussed, can we at least discuss Peoria, Dayton, and Grand Rapids within the same thread?

Long Island is about a 5th tier legal market. Let's see Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, Cleveland, Miami.....

could I get a job in NJ?

STRONG ISLAND!

Well, I think that answers that - LI isn't even worthy of discussion on this board. CT and NJ: Yes. LI: NO.

2:26 you're a turd. None of the small cities you mentioned are in close proximity to the arguably, "most" desired city like Long Island is. If you examine the disparity in salary in a 20-30 mile radius from NYC, you'd be pretty astounded to see salary ranges from 50-60k in Long Island to up to 145-160 in NJ/CT.

Turd, huh? All of those small cities are much better legal markets than LI. LI is terrible. The reason firms start out at 60k a year there is that they cannot attract decent entry-level talent. The fact that LI is so close to "arguably [the] 'most' desired city" makes it worse, rather then better. Any LI-based client worth his weight in water is going to hire an NYC firm. LI is for estate and PI work. But what do I know? I'm just a turd.

can't we, on the NJ discussion board, of all places, show a little empathy towards those who are interested in smaller markets???

I can't believe you did threads on f-ing NJ and Hartford before places like Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Houston.....

This is a dumb diversion and it takes pressure off of the DC and Chicago holdouts and allows firms in real legal markets to hide out and bankroll our raises while we argue over the relative mertis of Long Island. Please.

So, I'm guessing that based on the lack of substantive discussion that nj firms are not moving (or nobody knows anything).

Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte and Houston seem to fall into the top-tier as far as legal markets go. The Texas firms do for sure, and I'd say the other southern firms, given their regional importance, are at least close. Those places get decent coverage in the comments sections whenever salaries are discussed.

NJ has 8.7 million people, and is sandwiched between the largest city in the U.S. (NY) and the 5th largest (Philly).

In contrast, Dallas (1.2M), Atlanta (470k), Houston (2.0M), and Charlotte (610k) can't touch that population or location-wise.

In other words, no one gives a shit whether Smith & Smith has upped from $110k to $115k in Charlotte. NJ is far more important.

Well, nice to know I'm in a tip-tier market. Now pay up.

In all seriousness (and I mean no disrespect to NJ), there is sooooo much more to discuss in re the markets I mentioned. Like, Charlotte is at 145 and pushing 160 (according to rumor) and Atlanta only recently moved to 130. In all areas except banking, Atlanta is a far more sophisticated legal market. Additionally, salaries in Houston and Dallas are higher than Atlanta. Why? King & Spalding is sandwiched between V&E and Fullbright on the AmLaw100. Atlanta is as (or more) expensive than Houston or Dallas. Makes no sense. Lots to discuss.

NJ is so unimportant. You're talking about the population of an ENTIRE STATE. The population of Texas is 20.1 million. That makes it almost 2.5 times as important as NJ. Besides - any NJ-based business goes to NYC for legal work anyway. NJ lawyers only do estates and PI. Just like strong island.

DUMB:

That-a-way. Compare NJ's state population to the city (not even MSA) populations for Dallas, Atlanta, Houston and Charlotte.

And you're right. Nobody gives a shit about anyone paying a mere 115 in Charlotte.

Where are all you NJ bitches? This is your chance to have a say.

(Partners say: "You better be at your desks, punks, earning your shriveled nuts off or no booze at the Christmas party this year.)

Anyone whose law firm is based in an office park works in a shitty legal market. I'm looking at NJ and LI.

3:47 (both of 'em) FTW!!!

Atlanta is pushing 5 million numb nuts. And I like how you compare an entire state (NJ) to the single cities I named. With reasoning like that, I can see why you are so well paid.

Let's get real.... If you have to live in a shitty place anyway, why not just cross the river and get paid.

If NJ is so important, why is pay so low compared to cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, Minneapolis, etc.?

I'm starting work in New Jersey soon, and I'm not sure whether to wear my yellow gold chains or my white gold on the first day. Can anybody help? Also, how much bling is generally acceptable? When I step out of my IROC-Z, I want to impress, but I don't want the senior partners to be jealous of my ice.

Lat,

Your blog is getting weak. You had momentum going there and you were actually making firms move. But now you are losing focus and moment. Folks are going to start tuning you out and this will fizzle. You need to get it refocused and make a name for yourself while you have a captive audience.... Sponosring threads on places like NJ (which, best I can tell, has turned into a bitch fest about how you live is a horrible place and get paid less than those across the river who live in a horrible place and get paid more) is not the way to do that. Get it together.

serious question: Hilarious. Just make sure your 'brook' haircut is properly gelled.

Can St. Louis haz pay rayz?

The bottom line on NJ is that, with the exception of McCarter and English and Lowenstein Sandler, all the NJ firms are below 100 million in revenues. They can't keep up with the pay because they aren't bringing enough in.

Dumb: you're really living up to your name.

4:01: duly noted. thanks.

I've found this page particularly helpful in navigating the fashion "dos" and "do not dos" of NJ:

www.njguido.com

4:02: then why don't lowenstein and mccarter raise? how do they get/keep associates?

I am DUMB, the one making good points about Atlanta, etc. That NJ clown used my name ("DUMB") and put a "re" in front of it. So stupid he doesn't even know how to post. Don't get it twisted.

BTW: Do NJ firms provide complementary mullet trims on Fridays? That would be a big selling point...

Dumb: Start your own blog w/ all this spare time you apparently have at work. You can blog about Atlanta's 400k population all day. (The CITY of Atlanta has 400k; the metro area has 5M, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta,_Georgia, but that's like saying someone living in Bergen County NJ lives in NYC -- they don't. Atlanta is a shit-hole. The following hot-spots have larger populations: Tuscon, Oklahoma City, and Portland. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html)

The bottom line on NJ is that, with the exception of McCarter and English and Lowenstein Sandler, all the NJ firms are below 100 million in revenues. They can't keep up with the pay because they aren't bringing enough in.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 6, 2007 04:02 PM
==============

I know it's not an iron-clad rule anymore, but it remains a good practice to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition.

Try:

"They can't keep up with the pay because they aren't earning enough."

That's better.

No one in Atlanta lives in the city proper. We all have mansions in the burbs. And the city limits are tiny because surrounding counties don't want to be part of the incompetent Atlanta city government. So, it doesn't suprise me that the the Census figure for Atlanta proper is low. It's just misleading. Atlanta is a city of 5 million. NJ, on the other hand is a state with no cities of an consequence and is, in general, shitty. That's why you make so little. Hope this helps.

Oh, wait.... I forgot Camden (lovely) and Atlantic City. Those are two gems. I apologize...... Almost as good as Long Island.

Wow, I posted the first post up top seriously making a comment about the NJ market from experience and this whole discussion just went into the toilet. The fact that people are arguing about various markets when this was about the NJ market is pretty annoying.

The top NJ firms are major players and still don't compensate nearly as well. It isn't just Lowenstein and McCarter by the way. Do your research. Anyone ever heard of a firm called Gibbons? Bottom line, no one is saying that NJ firms should pay what NY firms do. What is being said is that the disparity is too great. If you bill the same but make upwards of $60,000 less in base and $30,000 or so less in bonus, it is too much of a disparity, especially considering that these top firms want similar credentials as the ones required at many NYC firms and expect similar hours.

"NJ has no cities of consequence."

If living in mansions in the burbs is living in Atlanta, then living in mansions in NJ is living in NYC or Philly, since NJ is a major chunk of the metro area for both of those cities. I'd say those are cities of consequence.

NJ firms may want, but don't ultimately land, individuals with NYC-caliber (whatever that means) credentials. NJ clients are smaller, NJ lawyers are not as on-paper attractive, and that is why NJ salaries are lower.

If living in mansions in the burbs is living in Atlanta, then living in mansions in NJ is living in NYC or Philly, since NJ is a major chunk of the metro area for both of those cities. I'd say those are cities of consequence.

But you're talking about the pay in NJ itself, not the pay in NYC or Philly, where it is -- surprise, surprise -- higher than NJ. Your inability to grasp this is probably why you're stuck making shit moneyin NJ, rather than working in the major markets surrounding you.

Sorry, never heard of Gibbons.

I checked the AmLaw100 and, damn, that's right you wasn't there......

Sorry, never heard of Gibbons.

I checked the AmLaw100 and, damn, that's right you wasn't there......

Nice burn, 4:28. Can't let those Jersey fools intimidate us with their disco fries and unintelligible 'English.'

OK so of the 2 or 3 "powerhouse" NJ firms - ie Lowenstein Sandler, McCarter & English and Gibbons - how are their NYC office rates? I could understand the difference in salary in NJ - but the same 35k+ (incl bonus) differential working in the same city?

Anyone know if any of these firms are trying to grow their NYC offices and are trying to sweeten the pot by offering money similar to or close to the 160k?

My mansion in Atlanta's burbs is 4.2 miles from my office in Midtown Atlanta.

How far us your NJ mansion from Midtown New York?

There is the difference dumbass.

4:11: You're remarks about prepositions are something up with which I will not put!!!

4:34: I don't know if these Jersey firms are trying to grow their NYC offices, but to my knowledge (based on somewhat recent intelligence) they pay WAY below NYC market rate.

4:11: Your remarks about prepositions are something up with which I will not put!!!

4:34: I don't know if these Jersey firms are trying to grow their NYC offices, but to my knowledge (based on somewhat recent intelligence) they pay WAY below NYC market rate.

I had to try to fix my mistake before giving "4:11" some grammatical shit.

DUMB: you can thank people from NJ and other northern states for your modern, shiny city of Atlanta.

check the recent NJ Law Journal top 20 --
McCarter Gross Rev is 200 million and PPP 525k

Lowenstein Gross Rev is 148 million and PPP 781k

Gibbons is, as I said, under 100 million at $96 million and a PPP of 651k

Of the NJ based firms, Lowenstein leads on PPP, with Riker next at 678k and a handful of others in the 600 range

NJ is a large market, but the homegrown firms are just not big players. They get want NY doesn't want or they get the clients that are too cheap to pay NY prices

What about Princeton? Morgan Lewis, Buchanan Ingersoll, and Reed Smith are all there...

Thanks for chiming in, Sherman. You spared Charlotte and now they're paying 160.

200 million is a joke. 10 Atlanta based firm above that. Come strong or don't come at all.

The Atlanta Thrashers suck.

Atlanta Hawks and Falcons also suck.

Anytime.

I always liked Savannah, too. What are they paying these days?

http://njguido.com/writings/nj_anthem.htm

Thanks for posting the njguido stuff. Hilarious!

/All I need to know.

For those not familiar with the geography/demography of NY metro:

NY metro has around 22 million people, living in four states. Somewhere between 5 and 6 million of NJ residents live in NY metro. In fact, the NJ component of NY metro is the fifth populous in the country, after the NYC component of NY metro, Philly, Boston and Chicago. Of these 5+ million, probably half live within a 15 mile radius of downtown Manhattan.

Also, it is possible to have mansion in NJ, on the Hudson, with a view of the NY skyline (in, e.g., Alpine and Englewood).

In fact, probably nowhere else in the country is it possible to travel fifteen minutes by train (from the Ground Zero to Newark) and pass through such a biglaw salary differential.

Ben Franklin called NJ "a barrel tapped at both ends". With Philly on one side and NY on another, NJ can't compete for high-revenue business. Except perhaps in certain patent law subareas (because of the huge presence of pharma. cos.), there isn't anything happening in NJ that isn't happening in NY on a grander scale. And patent law is of course a federal practice, so even then there is no real need for NJ law expertise.

Anyway, I write this as a Jersey-bred first year associate who landed a biglaw job in NYC. Knowing the salary differential, I have fond memories of my home state, but I didn't even bother taking the NJ bar. I don't think I'll see any reason to regret that decision.

Amendment: Sixth most populous. I forgot LA.

I think your post illustrates the point: smart people (who understand economics) and can leave NJ to work in NYC do so (and many still commute in from NJ). Those who can't leave don't, and they don't deserve to make anywhere near what people in NYC make.

Your post also explains why NJ is not a sophisticated legal market (and, hence, why they pay crap).

Accordingly, I would add to Franklin's bromide: "NJ is a barrel [full of shit] tapped at both ends."

Why would anyone want to work for McCarter, Lowenstein, Riker, Porzio, or Gibbons when all the out-of-state firms with Jersey offices pay more for the same (or similar) hours expectations?

The Philly firms (Reed Smith, Dechert, etc.) pay $135-$145K in NJ. I think the Princeton office of Morgan Lewis also pays $145.

Patton Boggs pays $150K in NJ.

Latham and Hughes Hubbard both pay $160K in NJ.

If only the out-of-state firms had larger NJ offices!

8.05, why would anyone work in NJ when the NYC salaries are 160k?

I heard Sills Cummis (Newark) was expanding their NYC office - moved to bigger offices at Rock Plaza. No idea what they are paying in comparison to their NJ office though and what areas they are concentrating in at the NYC office.

Is partnership easier or faster at NJ firms? Is that a draw?

11:15, aside from the luxury of having your own office (which you won't get in NYC till your 2nd or 3rd year), New Jersey offers lower state taxes and no city tax (which in NYC is 3% of gross). Therefore, a $160,000 job in NJ is actually more lucrative than a $160,000 job in NYC.

Once you factor in cost-of-living savings in New Jersey (cheaper gas, groceries, housing, daycare, entertainment, etc.), even a $145,000 job in NJ could potentially be more lucrative than a $160,000 job in NYC.

true, once you factor in the cost-of-living savings in NJ from entertainment (strip clubs, atlantic city, strip malls, real malls) and groceries (pizza and chinese food), you're really coming out on top.

. . . except that very few firms in NJ are paying $160k or even $145k. Most are down around the $120k range, aren't they? How does that compare to NYC's $160k, plus bonus?

I find the timing of the "irrelevant" postings on ATL conveniently distracting.

Seems the "carwash, sex, asian, etc." comments started after this site received attention in the more mainstream publications, thus helping associates be heard.

Reminds me of the same technique used by the executive branch.

NJ is not NYC, and therefore won't pay the same. There's an IP shop (Lerner David) that's paying 135 and I think McCarter will also be at 135 next year. That will probably be the ceiling for NJ for the next couple of years.

If I had the credentials to work in nyc, I would absolutely jump on the chance (I'm currently a middle of the road 1L (well . . . 1.5L) at a NJ school), but I don't think that's in the cards. That being said, I think that making 135 in NJ and not giving 3% of my money to city taxes isn't the end of the world, especially since I don't have to spend $2500/month for a liveable apartment.

As a Jersey guy I don't really have a problem with where the salaries are at, though I wish compression wasn't so great. There's a problem when a 6th year in NJ is making 170 and that same 6th year across the river is pulling down an extra hundred grand.