Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: Texas, Take Two
We did a post on associate salaries in the Texas markets last month. But since a number of you have been clamoring for another, and we haven't done one as part of our recent series on various non-New York markets, here's another post going out to the Lone Star State.
In our last Texas post, we included some starting salary information for various Texas offices. Today we're going with a different theme: compression. From a Texas tipster:
Leaving aside the fact that the large Texas-based firms (and many national firms with large Texas presences) are playing a game of petrified chicken on the latest round of raises, I have seen no coverage at all on the massive compression resulting from the last round of raises. These firms at issue are some biggies: Baker Botts, Vinson & Elkins, Akin Gump, Fulbright, etc.Here's how it worked after last year's round of national raises: First years in Texas got a big increase, from about $110k to $135k. 2nd and 3rd years also got around a $15k increase. And that's pretty much where it stopped. 7th years received a $5,000 raise, to about a $185,000 base. To put that in perspective, it's about 50% less than a 7th year currently makes (at the same firm or a national that pays a uniform scale) in LA, NYC, DC, etc. That is, a 7th year at BB in Texas makes $185,000; a 7th year at BB in NYC makes $275,000. Sheeeeeit! And don't look for explanations in billing rates. The vast majority of work done in Texas by these firms is billed at national rates -- the same charged in DC and LA (though maybe 10% less than in NYC).
The point: screw the first years! They now make only $50,000 less than the folks up for partner. Not that partnership chances have increased.
Counting on you to get the ball rolling!
Franky, relatively broke and senior in Texas
Feel free to bitch and moan -- or, if you're not from Texas, to remind them that they pay no state income tax and have a relatively low cost of living -- in the comments. Thanks.
Earlier: Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: Unhappy, Texas
(52) Comments
Seriously, bring on the Portsmouth information. We're sitting here below 65k and need to put some pressure on the market-drivers.
If you're really a 7th year making that, you are either about to make partner (so quit crying) or you are a dupe (change jobs if you can).
Is this some sort of joke? Texas had its day, it sucked, and it doesn't deserve another day. Portsmouth, please!
Third!!!
Bring back A3G!!!
Portsmouth to $35 and a ham sandwich!!!
What's the compensation structure at Morgan Lewis CA like and what are minimum hours versus actual hours billed?
PS. I know this is a Texas thread, but don't care at all.
Woah. Were y'all aware that some people post comments on the weekend? I didn't know this site was even accessible on the weekends. What a bunch of nerd-o loser-dorks.
Oh yeah, PORTSMOUTH!
Removing Schiff -- there are rumors of a raise, but someone needs to confirm.
Continuing CA List of Shame:
1) Bryan Cave
2) Baker & McKenzie
3) Foley Lardner
4) Greenberg Traurig
5) Holland & Knight
6) Nixon Peabody
7) Howrey
Permanent All City List of Shame
1) Seyfarth Shaw according to multiple threads on ATL for allegedly planning not to raise.
3:10, why don't you post in one of the Infirmation or Greedy Associates forums focused on California? You are probably more likely to get a response over there.
Texas to $160K!
DC and Cal. firms at 145 should be taken off the v100 -- they're midlaw and soon their associate pools will reflect it!
3:15 - because you have to register and it's a pain in the ass. But, you're right, I'll cross post there.
P O R T S M O U T H N O W!
$95K and a Taylor Pork Roll!!
PUCK FORTSMOUTH!
White Girls With Asian Guys
3:23 --
YUCK FOU! Don't you EVER disrespect Portsmouth like that.
What has happened to the comment threads on this board? First/WGWAG/single-phrase-bitching-about-random-city's-base-salary comments went from zero to 60% of all content in about a month. And that doesn't even include the list-of-shame people, who would provide a valuable service if they only confined their comments to relevant or open threads. As someone commented last week, it's like Slashdot c. 1998. Can we get a Gawker-style system of commenter auditions to weed out the crap and get back to real salary, law, wedding and Harvard Law Review-related comments?
Hey Chris,
You suck. PORTSMOUTH!
The post in blue above is right on point. The last round of raises in Texas was distributed to the least deserving - first through third years. The real value to the Texas firms - 4th years and above- got shafted. The only conceivable purpose of the last round of raises was recruiting. But the current scale wont even accomplish that considering the number of firms in Texas that now pay on the national scale. We can debate all day long how many, if any, top recruits will be lost to the carpetbaggers, but whether big tex wants to admit it or not, the significantly lower pay is going to affect these firms. Big tex will lose some law students to carpetbaggers. Big tex will lose some associates to carpetbaggers. Morale will be low among the associates that stay at big tex. The Texas offices of big tex firms will feel like second class citizens when the same firm is paying its associates in every office outside of Texas approximately $450k more over the course of their associate careers. Big tex needs to address these issues. Raise pay for the rest of the ranks. It is ridiculous that a first year at a big tex firm in DC makes the same as a 4th year in Houston.
I'm not wholly convinced by this claim of "national billing rates" for Big Tex firms.
I think it's only fair that Portsmouth gets its day - I mean, come on, it has to be at least as important as Texas, right?
Seems to me like the firms in Houston have decided that once they trick a first year into coming, he or she will stay regardless of the compression.
Want to change their thinking? Get people to start jumping from Houston to NYC, and tell the firm in the exit interview that it was the pay raise.
Second, tell every 2L that interviews with you about the compression and talk them into staying in NYC. And get them to tell the Houston firm that it was because of the compression.
Texas first years do deserve $160 K only because they live in the crappiest place, most uncultured place in the world. These poor suckers have to wear large hats and boots to work. They also have to have shotguns in their pickup trucks. I'm not sure if they even have electricity yet, much less indoor plumbin'.
By law, you have to marry your first cousin.
Houston associates have no right to complain when compared to places like Atlanta that have a much higher cost of living, higher taxes, and yet make less than Houston associates.
When it comes to bitching about raises, Houston needs to get in line.... behind more deserving cities.
Re: 3:43
I work for a big tex firm with offices in all the major cities. The rates in NY are slightly higher than in the rest of the offices, but the rates in Texas are the same as in DC and CA.
But Texas is the only market where my firm does not pay its associates on the 160 scale.
Why? Because V&E has not raised salaries. We all know that no one is going to raise unless V&E raises. For some reason, that is the way it has always been here. But despite its well over $1million PPP, V&E is burying its head in the sand and crossing its fingers that its "prestige" alone will allow it to recruit and retain top caliber associates without raising pay. We'll see what happens in the fall. Hopefully V&E is wrong and raises pay. And I dont think any of us are arguing for the 160k scale. Even if 1st year salaries stayed the same, there needs to be a raise to address compression.
Are there any people on here that have the inside scoop on the big tex firms? What are they thinking if anything about salaries?
Cry all you want, no one feels sorry for Houston associates.
The fact of the matter is $135k, $140k, or whatever starting salaries are, is a freakin' kings ransom in Houston.
3:55 --
V&E (the market leader) has openly stated that they have NO plans to raise salaries.... and if V&E doesn't raise, no one else will either.
Hey Portsmouth guy. Why don't you join forces with me in urging a sans Boston New England post? Surely Portsmouth can share the limelight with such other metropolitan hubs as Providence, Manchester, and the true Portland.
Pssst. Atlanta Associates. Why don't you just move then?
That is surprising.
But I'm with what the Atlanta folk said...starting salary is fine, just fix the compression.
NYC to 190!
Have any of the Texas firms even matched 160 in DC yet? I think I remember seeing VE, BB and FJ clustered together at the top of the DC List of Shame.
Perhaps now would be an appropriate time for List-of-Shame-guy to repost, no?
A third-year in California at a big firm bills out at $400+. Is that what they are charging for a third-year in the Lone Star State?
I love it when anz P gets all up in white girl V.
IT'S THE ULTIMATE!
Where is Portsmouth? Is that a real town?
Oh PUHLEEEZ. Texas cost of living is the same as India. First year associates are living in 7 bedroom mansions while on the coasts they can barely afford a room in an apt. Texas should be making 50% of the salary of the coasts.
Thelen raised in California
http://www.nylawyer.com/display.php/file=/news/07/06/062507k
4:29 - As if on cue, according to this article, the average 7th year at Texas firms bills at $258 with 4th years at $232. Not that that's necessarily helpful in figuring out what Texas BigLaw bills at.
http://www.nylawyer.com/display.php/file=/news/07/06/062507q
I'm saddened, but not surprised, to see many comments bashing Texas and making gross generalizations as to the standard of living and the type of life we enjoy here. As an attorney in Texas who is luckily compensated towards the top of the national pay scale, I have no complaints regarding my pay, but I do understand others' frustration.
First, let me assure you that the standard of living in the major cities in Texas is nothing like India. Does it compare to New York, San Francisco, or the like? Not in any way. But, in the major cities, the cost of living has been skyrocketing, and home prices are nowhere near as cheap as some would believe. I can assure you, I do not live in a 7 bedroom mansion. Rather, I live in a small 1 bedroom house on the outskirts of the city, which, while running under the $250,000 mark, can in no one's mind be considered a mansion. For example, a new construction 3 bedroom apartment in uptown Dallas can cost $1,000,000. While, again, not as expensive as some major US cities, is nothing to laugh at.
In addition, the quality of legal work available to Texas attorneys is of the highest caliber. Approximately 100 of the Fortune 500 companies are located in Texas and a large portion of their work is performed by either Texas firms or the Texas offices of large firms.
The reason I am posting is to try and point out to others that Texas should not be considered to be a backwards place that does not merit a place in the nationwide legal discussion. We do not "have to wear large hats and boots to work." Nor do we have shotguns in our pickup trucks (I drive a BMW and am opposed to guns). And, I have both electricity AND indoor plumbing (thank my lucky stars).
9:14, actually that is somethign to laugh at. you could not buy a cardboard box on a corner in the most dangerous part of Oakland, CA for the $250k you paid for your house in Texas. Obviously, the poster who wrote about required shotguns and lack of electricity was joking. But the fact that it costs next to nothing to live in Texas (little secret: a million bucks for a new house in a nice, central neighborhood is absolutely nothing in NYC, SF or LA) is no joke. Stop crying.
9:23 - I'm not crying, I moved to Texas from New York after law school for a reason. However, I would like the rest of the country to realize that it's not dirt cheap to live here. It's not the most expensive, but it's not the least, by any means. And, for some reason, people feel free to slam Texas all they want, and to make gross generalizations about who lives here and what we do. I merely want to provide an insider's view. I'm not complaining, because I personally have it very good here. But in viewing compression scales, in contrast to the legal work that is performed here, I can understand the complaints of others.
And, to address your point about housing prices in other cities. One of my best friends just purchased a new construction 2 bedroom apartment in downtown Brooklyn for $750,000. So, I do have a basis upon which I speak. Do you?
The poster by the name of “Ralbylove” is in no way associated with the individual named Ian M. Ralby, but is instead an alias created without the consent of Mr. Ralby.
Well, if we're into the "can cost" game, a three-bedroom new construction apartment in the best part of New York can run $10mil, and I'm pretty sure that you'd have to pay that for a nice 3-bedroom house in Woodside or Malibu as well.
Not sniffing at the quality of legal work in Texas in the slightest - my current firm doesn't have a Texas office, but I used to work at GD&C, and my favorite lawyers in the whole place were in the Dallas office. But in terms of COL and hours, it doesn't really measure up to the coasts. You move there for quality of life (read: COL and hours), and should adjust expectations for pay accordingly.
10:10 - I am somewhat unpopular in my amongst my peers, in that I think attorneys in NY/LA/SF SHOULD be paid more than in texas. However, as a born and bread texan, I feel it necessary to try and break stereotypes that some have of here. But, there's no arguing that the COL is less here. BUT, it's not that much less than people think. That's really all I wanted to say.
does the col and hours argument work for the dc offices of texas firms? i think not.
what is going on texas?!? morale in your dc offices is slipping. . . quickly, and the headhunters are calling even faster.
DC Vault of Shame(still at 145,000)
40. Baker Botts
44. Baker & McKenzie <<< still at 145
48. Jenner & Block
50. Fulbright & Jaworski
58. Vinson & Elkins
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
66. Bingham McCutchen
68. Foley & Lardner
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
79. Crowell & Moring
86. McGuire Woods
88. Arent Fox
91. Thelen Reid
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
95. Dickstein
96. Venable
Vault of Extreme Shame(still at 135,000)
87. Squire Sanders
TEXAS DC TO 160!!!
*do* the col and hours argument work for the dc offices of texas firms? i think not.
what is going on texas?!? morale in your dc offices is slipping. . . quickly, and the headhunters are calling even faster.
DC Vault of Shame(still at 145,000)
40. Baker Botts
44. Baker & McKenzie <<< still at 145
48. Jenner & Block
50. Fulbright & Jaworski
58. Vinson & Elkins
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
66. Bingham McCutchen
68. Foley & Lardner
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
79. Crowell & Moring
86. McGuire Woods
88. Arent Fox
91. Thelen Reid
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
95. Dickstein
96. Venable
Vault of Extreme Shame(still at 135,000)
87. Squire Sanders
TEXAS DC TO 160!!!
and yes, i know. jenner block should be removed from the list. i'm tired, overworked, and drunk with depression.
you still didn't get it right.
"*do* the col and hours argument[s] work for the dc offices of texas firms?"
or
"does the col and hours argument work for the dc offices of texas firms?"
the first post was correct.
Re 4:29
I am a mid-level at a big tex firm in Texas and know for a fact that my rate is the same as an associate my same year in our CA or DC offices. NY is a little higher, but there are cases staffed in Texas that bill at the NY rate, although that is not typical.
If my firm bills me out at the same rate as it does my peers in CA or DC, and expects the same amount of efforts (billable hours) from me as it does from my peers in DC or CA, why do they pay me so much less?
The answer, of course, is because they can.
But if this continues, those of us in Texas are not going to continue to work our asses off just to be paid like second class citizens in our own firm.
It is time for Big Tex to raise salaries.
Nice try Anonymous 9:57PM. That might be the douchiest post I've ever seen. Seems pretty likely that you're not anonymous, but actually Ian M. Ralby. Way to distance yourself by posting anonymously. Climb back into your hole at Hunton and work on your billables.
10:57/10:58 - Thelen Reid is no longer on that list -- see the article from the Recorder from yesterday.
It IS way cheaper in Texas - whoever said that TX associates should be paid half of coast firms is right. I've gotten into this argument a million times with southerners, and the fact of the matter is that your money goes way further - it makes absolutely no sense to compare to NY or LA. It's 50% cheaper to live in Austin, Dallas, or Houston than to live in NY. Check it out:
http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=185000&city1=1920&city2=5600
To maintain the same standard of living, your salary of $160,000 in New York, New York could decrease to $78,644 in Houston, Texas. Stated another way, it's 50.8% cheaper to live in Houston, Texas than New York, New York.