Wilmington pays better and gets better work. Many Wilmington associates live in Philadelphia.

Do other southern cities! Like Nashville! Nashville is huge for healthcare and has some pretty big firms (one is a vault branch i think)

Philadelphia is a horrid legal market. Go to Delaware if you want to live in philly.

DELAWARE TO 160k!!!!!!

What's the deal with the Philly firms with NY/DC offices? Are they going to raise already or what?

Having worked at (arguably) the top firm in Wilmington (not Skadden), and now at a second-tier firm in Philly, I'll tell you that comment about the work in Wilmington is NOT true. Yes, if you are at a top wilmington firm you'll be "in on" a lot of interesting, high-profile litigation in chancery court, BUT it's as LOCAL COUNSEL to NY and other big-market firms that call the shots. Work in Philly is substantitively much better, even at a second-tier firm. It is true, though, that Wilmington earns about 5-10 more than associates in Philly, mainly because Skadden in Wilmington pushes up the salaries in DE.

Delaware is already at 160 for a few firms like Fish and Skadden.

I agree with 12:06. Wilmington has better work and pays better. In Philly,
compression is rampant, especially at the lower tier firms, like Cozen O'Connor ($125k starting salary and $2k bumps per year). Bonuses are small.

The top shops are Morgan and Dechert, but be prepared to sweat and work weekends. Pepper (litigation), Ballard Spahr (Real Estate) Blank Rome (Corporate), Drinker (IP) are the next tier, pay well, but are becoming sweatshops themselves.

Firms like Hangley Aronchick have high QOL (1800 billable min.) and pay pretty well.

What does Dechert's Philly office pay? Did they (or anyone else in Philly) ever move to the $160,000 scale?

Are we going to get a Southeast, Midwest, and Phoenix/Denver open thread?

Philadelphia?

Like, seriously?

Philadelphia doesn't deserve to be on this forum. Philly firms are stuck on the old pay scale and refuse to change. Its almost as if Philly firms are trying purposefully NOT to attract the top talent and just stick to the local kids. My bonus is sad.

A Nashville/Southern Recruiting Thread(excluding ATL - like you did for the "Nationwide Pay Raise Watch" thread a while back) would be helpful. The Nashville market, in particular, is in a state of flux as some firms have raised salaries, while other comparable firms are still deciding what to do. It would be helpful to potential recruits to know where things stand.

Yes, I know that Southern markets are not worthy of this board's time, etc., etc., etc.

What's the scoop on Buchanan Ingersoll?

Anyone know what is going on at Woodcock Washburn for IP? I heard the finally went to 145k, but it is not effective until January 2008. Seems to send the message to associates that they didn't want to raise, but had to for recruiting purposes.

Get out of Philadelphia while you still can.

Anyone know what is going on at Woodcock Washburn for IP? I heard the finally went to 145k, but it is not effective until January 2008. Seems to send the message to associates that they didn't want to raise, but had to for recruiting purposes.

For rising 2Ls reading this thread for information on which to decide where to bid for intereviews, Dechert in Philadelphia has a lot of interesting work and strong lawyers who are willing to serve as mentors. I would encourage you to look at the firm. Like any big law firm, the lawyers there sometimes work long hours, but that should not surprise anyone at this point. Also, the summer program is one of the best summer programs around. It is run by great people who listen to your input, the summer associates get good work, get to tag along on excellent out of the office work trips, and the social events are awesome. For example, the summer associates in all the offices go to London each summer for a long weekend.

CHARLOTTE

CHARLOTTE

12:36

In other news, the Dechert Philly Recruiting Coordinator reads/posts on ATL.

I posted the 12:36 comment. I am not Dechert's Philly Recruiting Coordinator, although I did actually work there as a summer associate so I do have some knowledge about the firm and the summer program. I thought I might actually add some real information for people looking for it. I am also happy to try to answer any actual questions people might have.

While it certainly would be nice if Philly moved to $160,000, CNN's cost of living calculator states that $145,00 (what Philly's top firms are paying first year associates) is equivalent to approximately $163,000 in the D.C. area, and approximately $240,000 in Manhattan.

Ohio firms please? A new thread would be great!

You Philly people need to lay off the peyote-laced cheesesteaks. Philly firms aren't going to go to $160 anytime soon. It's hard enough for the DC/SF/LA/Chicago firms to do it. No Philly client is going to pay $500/hour for a freaking fourth year.

If you want to make the big bucks, work at a NYC firm.

I am a rising Penn 3L summering in New York and the COL difference is astounding. You can rent a VERY nice 1 bedroom in Center City Phila for $1200-1500. Buying a place in the city is not pure abstraction, either. So I really don't think that pay in Philly is such a big issue.

1:09 -- I think your argument is misguided. The firms that are raising are national/international firms for the most part. The raises are supported by all of the offices, but only occur where the market dictates the need to raise. It does not depend on the clients in the particular city because, again, they are national/international firms and their clients, while some are local, are usually not solely from the market where that particular office is located. Therefore, Dechert, Morgan and others, which have offices in lots of locations, can afford to raise in Philadelphia if they want to do so or the market forces them to do so. This is supported by the fact that both Dechert and Morgan have raised in other locations, such as NYC and DC. They simply have not raised in Philadelphia because they set the pace there, and they have a strong cost-of-living argument.

Also, before arguing that the big bucks are in NYC, you should refer to the post at 12:53 about cost-of-living.

12:53,

I have no idea what goes into CNN's CoL calculator, but from what I saw there is a huge difference in housing costs. For 600k you can live in a baller house within 15-20 minutes from downtown -- backyard and everything. In D.C. that barely gets you a condo and forget about a house.

I really tried to convince myself that I could go to Philly instead of D.C. but I couldn't get past the work. Ugh. First, Dechert is the only, and I mean only firm, I would consider. The bottomline is that there just isn't interesting litigation going on in Philly. Yes, that's a gross generalization, but compared to Boston, New York, and D.C. I think it's a fair statement.

Philly is a great city but if you want to do litigation and aren't wedded to the idea of going there, I would look elsewhere.

Anyone know any good tax practices in philly? what kind of law school stats (gpa, law rev, etc) are considered the minimum for the higher tier philly firms? thanks.

Anonemous 1:19

The point made by others up the thread is that you can live in Philly and get city life on the cheap, while working in Delaware, where you get the highest profile business litigation in the nation.

You even get paid more, and all you have to do is drive 40 minutes to work in the opposite direction of the traffic.

I grew up in Philly, went to law school in DC, summered in philly, and then came to a firm in DC (after clerking).

I LOVE philly as a city. It is really fun, with cool people, cheap, and has great food (I lived in Manhattan before law school, and philly food rivals the quality... just not quantity).

With that said, the quality of work is better in DC or NY. Most big clients would rather do business with a NY or DC firm. Non philly firms with big national litigation or corporate deals tend not to gravitate towards philly for their legal needs (philly based businesses are different).

So if you want to go to Philly, do it for reasons other than your work or your salary. Do it for the quality of the life, for the city and for the people. (do you really want to work with the assholes who regularly post on this board?... most of whom are in NY or DC)

I will say that 145 (or even 135) in Philly goes a hell of a lot farther than 160 in DC and especially 160 (200 with bonus) in NY.

1:30's comment about the food in Philly is absolutely true. That being said, I'm born and raised in the Philly area, went to law school there, but work in NY, for many reasons.

Dechert has the best tax group in Philadelphia.

for a million bucks in philly you can buy a colonial brownstone that is straight pimp. what can you buy for a million in nyc or dc? suddenly 145 v. 160 doesnt really look like a difference.

Wilmington is a niche market. It's a good niche, but unless you have a true passion for the DGCL and thoroughly enjoy legal research, it might be a bit of a drag. Wilmington is also a drag. A depressing, malodorous and surprisingly windy husk of a city. Don't go to work sunday without a bag lunch. The locals are suspicious of out-of-towners (like people who commute from Philly) because they have found that such people don't stay long.. The pay is the same at the two biggest firms in Philly, and even beyond Morgan and Dechert I don't think the pay gap justifies adding forty minutes to your commute and having to go into Delaware every day. Nasty place.

there are no such things as colonial brownstones.

1:39 -
The difference isn't just between 145k and 160k. 3rd years in Philly are making around 160k (with minimal bonus) while third years in NY, DC, etc. are making 185k (plus 40k) bonus. It gets worse as you get more senior. People have to remember that they won't be a 1st year forever. Upper year compression is a HUGE problem in Philly.

Skadden Delaware is the only job worth having in the philly metro area. Maybe Hangley, but only if you are a left-leaning do gooder virgin.

Again, Philly has tremendous cost of living. Young associates in Philly can buy large houses within 15-20 min commute of their center city office or even Center City condos w/ their salary. And then they can then buy a beach house at the jersey shore by the time they are mid to senior level associates. By this time their counterparts in NY will still be renting for $3500/mth to live in a box. You cant raise a family in NY. You cant really own real estate unless it's 45 minutes away. And you cant get anywhere without riding the filthy subway unless you pay for a taxi.

I have lived in NY, DC, and Boston and Philly is by far my favorite. The city has awesome culture, restaurants, and the cost of living is just amazing!!!

I'm with 1:36. Born and raised in Philadelphia, went to school there, worked there, but left and worked in DC and now NYC. It would be very difficult to come back to work in Philadelphia after having worked elsewhere.

but damn I miss wawa.

1:39,

I agree with your point, but the difference between 145 and 160 grows very quickly in later years. As a 3rd year in DC, I've probably made 100k more than I would have in Philly when you factor in clerkship and regular bonuses. Does that even out housing costs? No, but it makes it much closer.

If I'm top third in a top thirty law school, and on law review, am I wasting my time sending resumes to Deckert, Cozen, Morgan, Blank Romse, Hangly Aronchick and the like? Should I spend my time on the midsized, regional shops?

Agreed.

And you can add Duane Morris to the above list of firms.

Lawyers in Philly making $135 or $145K are living like Kings.

Lawyers in NY making anything below $300K are middle class at best.

wilmington is the pits. my SO worked there for a year and a half, and the bag lunch comment holds true on days other than sunday, unless you like eating at the same 2 or 3 places all the time.

1:51, Cozen sucks. You are wasting your time when it come to them.

and 145 when you only need to bill 1800-1900 is even better. not only do you get a better football team than NY or DC, you actually have time to watch them.

12:35:

Woodcock seems to be losing a lot of talented associates...word is that there is a lot of deadwood in the partnership. if you're looking at practicing IP at a GP firm in Philly, Drinker is the place.

1:51-
Look at the profiles of the associates at those firms and that will give you your answer.

How about Charlotte?

hi

Wawa is worth a $15k pay cut by itself.

Thanks for all the replies--it seems the philly firms put a huge emphasis on hiring from local schools. Is coming from a school outside the area putting me at a disadvantage, or are these firms only recruiting locally because that is all they can get?

Philly firms prefer students from Top law schools but those students must have strong ties to the area or they wont get an offer. Most firms will use up 2-4 summer associate slots of the regionals (Temple/Nova).

Most of the top firms recruit at T14 schools as well as schools like GW, BC, BU, etc.

Keep in mind the nice area to live in the burbs of philly (aka gladwyne and the main line from about haverford to a little past wayne) means housing costs of at least 650k and around 1-1.2m for a truly nice place.

I don't see the desire of wilmington trolls to want to live in philly. Buy a house in Greenville and take a car to the city to go out. The city wage tax alone makes living in philly not worth it.

Listen 1:51, if that really is your name, Philadelphia places a big emphasis on local schools because the city is inbred. Most people who live there tend to be from there. They are very protective of their own, but they are also weirdly snobby about academic pedigree.

Here is the ideal Philadelphia candidate: born in Philadelphia (or one of the collar counties) went to Penn (preferably Wharton) for undergrad and Harvard for law school and wants to come home and send his/her children to the Haverford School and Agnes Irwin.

So you're saying there's no room for a Utahn, by way of Los Angeles and Virginia in Philly? Such a shame....

The answer to the "Whither Philly" question lies in what you want out of your practice. If you only want the best national salary, and only will deign to work on the front-page litigation cases and corporate deals, then yes, you'd be silly to work anywhere but NYC or DC. But if you're expecting that kind of work, you had better be a top-half Penn grad or top 3 and law review editor in chief at any of the other decent law schools.

For the rest, Philly is a great place to work if you want to do actual work as opposed to merely churning dox. Plus, the community, while diverse, is close enough that you can build up rapport and a reputation (good or bad) such that your name will actually mean something to other lawyers after a few years.

For the record, I was an associate at a firm with less than 30 lawyers working on small to medium-size matters, and am now at one of the largest, top-paying Philly firms working on medium to very large matters. I've been paid a "laughable" salary and now the best in the area. There's more than enough here to keep you financially secure and professionally challenged.

One exception to Philly not getting good work is in the Biotech/Pharmaceutical field. Philadelphia to North Jersey is the East Coast corridor, and our firms get very high-end deals and cases to work on. Firms like Pepper are national counsel to a number of Big Pharma companies on their class action defense.

I would go with Morgan over Dechert for the simple reason that working at 30th St. must suck. Sure, you can take a cab to Rittenhouse and Old City, but I imagine that can get old quickly, and taking a nice walk at lunchtime (assuming they let associates take lunches) is pointless since there's nothing to look at.

I second the request for Lat to close this series of fall recruiting threads with more general threads (i.e. midwest, southwest, etc.) for the smaller markets.

01:51 - make sure you know how to spell the firms' names before you send out any resumes ffs

Can anyone comment on Drinker Biddle or Blank Rome?

Also, a midwest (non-Chicago) thread would be great.

Thank you.

2:38, they most certainly do not allow associates to take lunches (except during the summer, and then only when accompanied by summer associates).

you mean blank romse, hangly and deckert won't appreciate my typos?

CHARLOTTE

2:40 - let Lat do his thing. If you aren't interested in Philly, then don't read it. A "Middle Atlantic" thread comprised of New Jersey, Philly, and Delaware would get real messy real fast. Also, I think the purpose of these threads is to help out 2L's currently participating in OCI. If I were interested in working in Philly, I wouldn't want to have to wade through a bunch of nonsense about New Jersey and Delaware in order to get the information I'm looking for.

I can't wait for the Jersey thread because that's where I'm looking and I'm really interested in what people have to say about those firms. Of course, there will probably be about 7 serious posts before everyone starts whining about how much of a secondary legal market it is.

Charlotte

Philly is the armpit of the Northeast (and smells accordingly). Why the hell would anyone live there? All the negatives of NYC (except COL) and none of the positives.

drinker is a pretty good place to work. the pay is good (and compression actually lessened with the last increase), the work is interesting and challenging, and associates are treated as individuals and future partners (or clients), not simply fungible billing machines. while the hours "guideline" isn't bad, everyone works hard, but the effort is recognized and genuinely appreciated. most people seem to be pretty happy.

Rutgers-Camden is actually closer to Center City than Temple, ranked on par w/ both Temple and Nova and gets no love.

Is anyone familiar with Stradley Ronon. I know it's a second tier, regional firm but they seem to have a huge presence in Philly and pay salaries similar to Dechert.

2:58: Nice. Said like a schmuck who has no idea what he's talking about.
Kudos to you for looking stupid (for what I'm sure is not the first time).

3:11, Stradley is a great firm with really nice people and very reasonable working hrs. The main growth unit of Stradley is the Investment Management Group, which deals with mutual funds.

Anyone interested in working in Philly should take a look at working in Delaware. The pay is better, the hours reasonable, and the commute...Wait there is no commute.

On the other hand, you could take $15k less to work in a city with a ridiculous wage tax and deal with driving 76 on a daily basis because no one in their right mind wants to actually live in Philly.

In either case, if you want a real job take a drive up 95.

from what i've heard, Stradley isn't particularly reasonable with regard to hours. i've heard there is serious pressure to bill big hours, regardless of whatever the NALP form says.

Stradley doesn't pay anywhere close to Dechert at the senior associate levels. Drinker, Pepper and Blank get close.

3:29 again. however, the people i know there are indeed extremely nice.

Delaware has the biggest "little man's complex" simply b/c its Delaware.

Start out in Philly
Then lateral to New York
Anyone done this?

Also, will you lateral into the NYC pay scale with fellow 2nd/3rd/4th Years, thereby avoiding the Phili compression?

for those who don't know: Wilmington has its own wage tax, and nonresidents who work in DE must pay DE state tax.

Wilmington was perfectly fine until Biglaw shops from Philly started opening up here.

15, even 10 years ago the Delaware bar was relatively small, cordial, and collegial. Wilmington was a great place in which to practice law back then.

But in recent years we have had an explosion of young, arrogant Philly Biglaw assholes being admitted to the Delaware bar who think they own the place - viz. the poor sods up above who think it's a great idea to live in Center City Philly and commute to Wilmington.

Fortunately our bar exam is still one of the three hardest in the nation, so we can still keep some of the riffraff out. Plus Delaware only offers the exam once a year, so if you fail ... better luck next year, bucko.

And no reciprocity of any kind means no idiot Philly lawyers waiving in. Heh heh.

@ Philadelphia Lawyer, 1:41 - I bet you washed out of Morris Nichols or Potter Anderson and ran screaming back to Philly. Good riddance. Have fun crawling up the Shure-Kill Expressway for your hour commute to work.

Wilmington was perfectly fine until Biglaw shops from Philly started opening up here.

15, even 10 years ago the Delaware bar was relatively small, cordial, and collegial. Wilmington was a great place in which to practice law back then.

But in recent years we have had an explosion of young, arrogant Philly Biglaw assholes being admitted to the Delaware bar who think they own the place - viz. the poor sods up above who think it's a great idea to live in Center City Philly and commute to Wilmington.

Fortunately our bar exam is still one of the three hardest in the nation, so we can still keep some of the riffraff out. Plus Delaware only offers the exam once a year, so if you fail ... better luck next year, bucko.

And no reciprocity of any kind means no idiot Philly lawyers waiving in. Heh heh.

@ Philadelphia Lawyer, 1:41 - I bet you washed out of Morris Nichols or Potter Anderson and ran screaming back to Philly. Good riddance. Have fun crawling up the Shure-Kill Expressway for your hour commute to work.

3:40, The Delaware bar exam can't be that hard if Widener grads routinely pass it.

Mustache rides are cheaper in Philly.

and can't be that easy if 'Nova, Temple, Penn, etc., grads routinely fail it.

3:49, really? Temple and Nova getting compared to Penn? Are you kidding me? I crap Temple law degrees.

Can we get a Miami thread?

WG, you may crap Temple Law degrees but Temple and Nova are ranked 60th and Widener is Tier 4...not sure there's a comparison between the schools.

Hey 3:55, my school is next to an Applebee's...which last time I checked was a lot more fun to hang out at then the ghetto.

Few Widener grads take the DE bar. Most of them don't have jobs, so they take the PA bar instead.

Fortunately when you live in Wilmington, as opposed to Philly, your chances of being murdered and having your body set ablaze in a park dwindle significantly.

Or the NJ bar... which is even easier

I clerk for a judge in Wilmington and live in Philly. God help me if I have to work here another year. Philly is better than DE, no contest. It's not even a debate.

In a few years the riverfront will be a nice area to live.

Philly is w/o a doubt one of the crappiest towns around... it's a homeless man's version of Boston.

Living in Philly and working in Delaware may attactive to some, but paying for a car and dealing with 95 everyday are factors that can't be ignored. You can survive in Philly without a car, walk to work and pocket a nice chunk of change you'd otherwise be spending on daily transportation to Wilmington and parking. And without that commute, you'd get over an hour extra a day to bill.

This is a joke. I fear for my life when I walk to the only place open in Wilmington after 5 (Joyful Garden) for dinner when I have to work late. In Philly I can walk anywhere in Center City whenever I want and feel safe. I kick myself everytime I get sucked into reading the drivel in comments sections such as this one.

Lat,

It would be much appreciated if you could do one more of these threads on Denver/Phoenix as others have requested. Thanks!

Beyond city issues, how about a comparison of the firms... I think the work you'll get at Morris Nichols or Richards Layton is better, at least for corporate litigation and bankruptcy, than anything in Philly... not to mention the work you'd get at Skadden.

Wilmo is also growing in terms of IP litigation (hence Fish coming) mainly because of the District Court.

Wilmington really is a shithole. The "nice" square in town is teeming with crackheads waiting for buses and looking for handouts. It's basically Hartford-lite.

Wilmington really is a shithole. The "nice" square in town is teeming with crackheads waiting for buses and looking for handouts. It's basically Hartford-lite.

Why go around hating on Philadelphia? Philly isn't hating on you. In any case, law firm life is law firm life, pretty much wherever you go. Just live where you can be done with your loans ASAP and are going to be happy. Stop spending your time getting fat and pasty reading these negative comments and do something worthwhile. No need to reply; I'm done with this.

Dear, uh, Die Philly DIe,

Thanks for demonstrating the provincialism I was attempting to describe. You did a far better job. Now, if by "washed out" you mean "got tired of doing narrow, repetitive research, being expected to work 7 days a week whether we were busy or not, taking every meal at that coffee shop (I've forgotten the name, but it was a damn good coffee shop) and being treated like a second class citizen because I wasn't from Delaware" then you nailed it. Only I take the train to work. I'm glad you (used to?) like your job. I think we both agree on the main point, which is that Wilmington is a great place to practice if you are from Wilmington and fundamentally like Wilmington. People who grew up in Delaware there are extremely fortunate to have such a lucrative legal market a ten minute commute from where they grew up. I wouldn't recommend it to transplants though and, apparently, neither would you.

Best regard,

PL.

please do a minneapolis thread!

Although there is a D.C. thread how about a Baltimore one?

the point about work in wilmington might be a good one, although i wonder how much of it is acting as local counsel for out-of-town firms litigating in Del. just wondering...i don't know.

as far as the work being better than "anything in philly," well...that's a broad generalization.

you're not seeing many comments about firms b/c most people on here are new yorkers who have no idea what they're talking about.

"taking every meal at that coffee shop (I've forgotten the name, but it was a damn good coffee shop)"

Libby's is the name you are looking for.

I am a transplant to Wilmington and I enjoy it. Yes, the city isn't much... but if you don't really care about having lots of museums, etc.. then who cares. You can have a short commute from your large home in DuPont Country or Chadds Ford/Westchester to a parking garage underneath, or right next to, your office building.

In terms of the work, yes some of the firms are primarily local counsel, but some aren't, if you are at one of those firms and you are doing corporate litigation, then you are doing cutting edge stuff.

I am a transplant to Wilmington and I enjoy it. Yes, the city isn't much... but if you don't really care about having lots of museums, etc.. then who cares. You can have a short commute from your large home in DuPont Country or Chadds Ford/Westchester to a parking garage underneath, or right next to, your office building.

In terms of the work, yes some of the firms are primarily local counsel, but some aren't, if you are at one of those firms and you are doing corporate litigation, then you are doing cutting edge stuff.

You guys are sad.

I do transactional work at a large regional firm based in philly, and while I may not get all of the mega-sized deals that NY gets, I still get good national work (and billion dollar deals, just not dozens of them). By way of example, opposing counsel in my current deals are DLA (DC), Goodwin Procter (NY), DLA (Chicago), Morgan (Philly), Dechert (Philly), Dewey (NY)...you get the picture. Those firms don't do shit work, and neither does mine. I also own an awesome house in the city, have my weekends, and have a lot of responsibility at a younger level than you get in NYC. AND, I'm not from here and didn't go to school here.

I do transactional work at a large regional firm based in philly, and while I may not get all of the mega-sized deals that NY gets, I still get good national work (and billion dollar deals, just not dozens of them). By way of example, opposing counsel in my current deals are DLA (DC), Goodwin Procter (NY), DLA (Chicago), Morgan (Philly), Dechert (Philly), Dewey (NY)...you get the picture. Those firms don't do shit work, and neither does mine. I also own an awesome house in the city, have my weekends, and have a lot of responsibility at a younger level than you get in NYC. AND, I'm not from here and didn't go to school here.

Libby's is pretty dope, I must say.

The only law students interested in Philly are those that don't have any other options because they were born, raised and went to school in Philly. I am from Philly, and if you're not from Philly, you would NOT like it here. It is TOO Local and provincial minded. And starting next month, everyone has to walk around in Green Eagles Jerseys. Its annoying.

Libby's is pretty dope, I must say.

The only law students interested in Philly are those that don't have any other options because they were born, raised and went to school in Philly. I am from Philly, and if you're not from Philly, you would NOT like it here. It is TOO Local and provincial minded. And starting next month, everyone has to walk around in Green Eagles Jerseys. Its annoying.

There has been a significant amount of Cozen bashing in these posts. What's wrong with Cozen?

The only law students interested in Philly are those that don't have any other options because they were born, raised and went to school in Philly. I am from Philly, and if you're not from Philly, you would NOT like it here. It is TOO Local and provincial minded. And starting next month, everyone has to walk around in Green Eagles Jerseys. Its annoying.

Although there is a D.C. thread how about a Baltimore one?

The only law students interested in Philly are those that don't have any other options because they were born, raised and went to school in Philly. I am from Philly, and if you're not from Philly, you would NOT like it here. It is TOO Local and provincial minded. And starting next month, everyone has to walk around in Green Eagles Jerseys. Its annoying.

There has been a significant amount of Cozen bashing in these posts. What's wrong with Cozen?

That's right. Law review editors from Penn have no other options. You are brilliant.

The only law students interested in Philly are those that don't have any other options because they were born, raised and went to school in Philly. I am from Philly, and if you're not from Philly, you would NOT like it here. It is TOO Local and provincial minded. And starting next month, everyone has to walk around in Green Eagles Jerseys. Its annoying.

I do the Philly-to-Wilmington commute everyday and, while it's worth it if you're at the right firm in Del., I agree with the comments about the distrust of out-of-towners and the general crapulence of Wilmington as a city. Trolley Square seems like a nice place to live, but as for downtown Wilmington, it leaves much to be desired and I miss everything about working in Philly, except for the actual work.

Although the work in Philly is not as hot as in other East Coast cities, Philly is a great place to live -- Center City is thriving, the restaurant scene is awesome and, when Nutter takes office in January, we'll have a competent mayor who is committed to reducing the onerous wage tax and is at least willing to take steps to tackle the crime problem.

i know plenty of people, both from law school and from work, who are not from philly yet love it here. i know a lot of people from my philly-area law school who decided to stay and work here even though they were from other places and could have returned there. just b/c you don't like philly doesn't mean others won't.

What about Denver? There are several firms there paying NY salaries, but the cost of living is maybe half what it is in NY. Plus, SKIING and FRESH AIR. I'm genuinely considering looking into the market there and would be interested in a post dedicated to it...

philly stinks worse than the undigested remnants of that Jim's steak that just came out of my butt

P.S. I ate said steak on Saturday

There has been a significant amount of Cozen bashing in these posts. What's wrong with Cozen?

Most people I know who are from Philly come back to Philly b/c they want to be here.

I attended a T14 and chose to come back here and I absolutely made the right decision.

5:32 - "my Philly-area law school" = I'm too embarassed to just say I went to Nova. Notice UPenn always identifies as such.

Lets get an Alaska thread going!

Philadelphia, and I say this as a non-native who lived here randomly after years in NYC, is amazing in terms of 1) live music and 2) food.

The restaurants in Philadelphia have blown my mind. I'm not sure if it's the easy access to farmland or what, but if you are into great restaurants, come here. Same thing with the music scene. Very diverse.

Also, young lawyers live like kings here.

Will firms hire you without having passed the PA bar or will they let you take it once employed there?

Ballard Spahr did wonderful work in a messy lawsuit that a businessman I know was involved in. And I mean wonderful.

Don't know what it's like to work there, tho.

A young lawyer in Philadelphia can live in a gorgeous spacious doorman building with a pool, below-ground parking,and in-unit washer/dryer for like $1300-$1600 a month.

You really live "like a pimp" as the kids say in Philly. And there's lots of fun stuff to blow your cash on.

It's not like NYC, where you might be working 14 hr days ... with a roommate.

Jason 3:45 - extremely uninformed comment. The DE bar has an extraordinarily low pass rate, and it has nothing to do with a 4th tier law school in the neighborhood (and yes, most Widener grads take PA). BTW, does your comment hold for the NY bar? Touro and NY Law grads routinely pass that one.

Where's Miami? It's a freakin' top ten legal market with more BigLaw than Philly or the Northwest.

5:58: not Nova; Rutgers-Camden. and proud of it.

The obsessive Eagles fandom does get tiresome.

Philadelphia has what I would like to call "soul."

You know how NYC is soulless? All gleaming and clean and full of clone-like yuppies?

Philadelphia is gritty and lively and kind of scary and arty. Which means that you, as a secretly soulless yuppie lawyer, can just slip on your jeans and tee shirt and soak up the soul on your weekends. It's got diners full of people of every color of the rainbow, interesting music performances, a vibrant gay neighborhood.

The only issue I have with the philly firms (and I mean Dechert and Morgan) is compared to NYC, tyhe mid-level comp just sucks. Yes, when your starting out, a 15k difference is not a allot, but when your a fifth year and your making 180k at Morgan or Dechert, the same guys in NYC are making 100k more then that (when you factor in bonuses as well).

The only issue I have with the philly firms (and I mean Dechert and Morgan) is compared to NYC, the mid-level comp just sucks. Yes, when your starting out, a 15k difference is not a allot, but when your a fifth year and your making 180k at Morgan or Dechert, the same guys in NYC are making 100k more then that (when you factor in bonuses as well).

How are the hours in Philly compared to NYC?

Noticeably less? Or no.

Answer to Stradley Q: Go there if you are good at '40 Act work. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

On COL: I'm paying $1500 for 700+ sq ft apt. w/ pool, doorman, gym, etc. Sweat & cheap.

Meanwhile, more important Q: Why are Lexis Ultimate rewards and Westlaw sites both down?

What about Fox Rothschild? Good place to work, interesting work?

Can anyone comment on their experience at Montgomery McCracken? Thanks.

Anything about Wolf Block?

4:57--where do you work?

I'm renting a 3,000 sq. foot house with a two-car garage and a backyard in Dallas for $1550 a month. 15 minute drive to work too. :)

Fox is a good firm that does good work. A lot of very well-respected lawyers. They seem to be eschewing the "bigger is better, gotta-be-national" mania, and focusing on picking up solid regional work that other firms are pricing themselves out of. strikes me as a smart strategy, unless one really gets a lot of satisfaction from working for the biggerest firm ever.

hours at dechert/morgan: probably not too much different than NYC. a little less, maybe. at others, definitely less.

how does the general quality of litigation work (biglaw or otherwise) compare between philadelphia and pittsburgh?

I have live in philly for 2 years. moved here so my wife could do a fellowship at CHOP. I lived in NYC for law school, palo alto for UG and 2 years in chicago in between.

all I can say is philly is a great city. all-in-all my favorite out of all the cities Ive lived in. people that bash it generally have no idea what theyre talking about.

I bought a 3BR, 3Bath rowhome in a very cool area off center city, with a large roofdeck with city views. i walk to amazing BYOs 3 nights a week, grill out on my patio, and get along well with the diverse group of young professionals on my block.

was originally planning on just being here for 2-3 years. but Im here to stay.

HTH

I should add that, as much as I do like Philly, it is true that pay and especially pay compression here are bad. Skadden in Delaware pays NY market and bonus. Fish there pays something like that, I think, but the office is so small as to be hardly worth mentioning. Dechert, Morgan, MNAT, RLF, Potter and I think YC are paying 145 plus approximately 5% raises every year (NY is 160 plus more like 10%) and bonuses, if you bill NY hours amount to between 1/3 and 1/2 NY bonuses. Other firms pay significantly less (I have trouble keeping track of Drinker's wacky pay arrangements, and Pepper may or may not pay 145, otherwise...10K is significant to me and the compression at some local firms is closer to 2% annual bumps). As far as whether we might get another bump...well, some of the higher-paying firms may not have the scratch to do better. Delaware firms are not highly leveraged (which is a good thing for long-term career prospects but makes raises expensive for the partners). Morgan and even moreso Dechert (both of which pay market in NY and bill Philly associates out at the same rate as their NY associates) could afford to pay better but have made it pretty clear that they (i) do not care to be market leaders in this regard and (ii) are happy with the recruits they get at 145. Also, firms here are not facing much threat of big local business stealing all the midlevels for plum in-house gigs (just not many big local businesses).

Skadden!!!

11:32 I think you have mentioned the one job worth shooting for in the philly metro market. Of course, if you are not top 2% at Nova or anywhere else outside the the T14 or Penn Law Review at top 10% you can forget about working there.

it's a little broader than that... but not by much

Is Skadden in Philly or just DE?

Wilmo... Philly is too small a market to deserve a Skadden office. (although they do some work in Philly out of the wilmo office of course..)

god I love Philly. so much. and with NUTTER maybe some stuff will get done around here next year vis a vis taxes. get into philly while you can, before it gentrifies all to hell.

Im sick of everyone saying youre going to get shot on philly. TWO people were murdered in center city all of last year. if youre not buying crack on 65th and market, philly is perfectly safe. Ive been to philly 20+ times to visit friends over the years and have never felt like i was in any danger. Center city and university city are the relevant areas of philly. unless the people on this blog plan on working for firms in kensington

well, where the hell am i going to get my crack, if not 65th and market? dammit man, do you expect me to smoke that garbage they're pushing over in north philly? i got standards, ya know.

kensington to 9mm!

1:20

good point. just make sure you wear a bullet proof vest if you plan on trying to bargain with them.

"what if they shot you in the face man?"

Part of the problem with philly firms is they are full of temple and Nova grads who think the best hires are Temple and Nova grads. This goes all the way up to the best firms in town. They don't pay more because they don't think they need the Col./NYU/Chicago (to say nothing of HYS) grads that they could get for a little more money. Although I've known many good lawyers from worse schools than Nova it is naive to think that there is not a correlation between school rank and overall intelligence. Philly firms won't recognize it so they won't pay for it so...

Miami thread???

Miami thread???

My understanding is that the larger Philly firms, and large firms in general, hire mainly from their summer associate class - true/false? Any chance they would hire a 3L for a first-year position?

What other firms are comparable to Hangley?

Lots of firms have 3L programs. They basically pay you to study for the bar. You don't have as much fun as the 2Ls, but you can definitely get an offer afterwards.

Ok, well, that's encouraging. I don't even need a summer program, I just want an offer at a decent place, and I'm trying to prepare myself for the worst. You say "lots of firms" -- can you give me a for instance?

Law interns find firm footing.

Summer parties of the first part

By Chris Mondics
Inquirer Staff Writer

They've sipped and supped with partners at their homes. They've been feted at restaurants, wine tastings and museum tours. They've written their first briefs, chatted up well-heeled clients, and dug deeply into billion-dollar transactions.

Some even have traveled abroad and been paid well for doing it - as much as $2,800 a week, the going rate at the city's largest law firms.

But now the three-month mating dance between summer interns and dozens of Philadelphia law firms is coming to its poignant, if inescapable, conclusion. Soon, if they haven't already, the summer interns - or summers, as they call themselves - will say fond goodbyes, mentally file memories of a magical summer, and return to the grind of their third and final year of law school.

And the hope for both parties - young law students and law firms hungry for top talent in a booming legal economy - is that their summer fling will blossom into a long-term commitment.

"This has really been like an 11-week date," said Muhammad At-Tauhidi, a third-year Temple law school student working at Ballard, Spahr, Andrews & Ingersoll, a 456-lawyer firm based in Philadelphia.

For the law firms, there's a lot at stake in this professional dating game.

According to Altman Weil, the Newtown Square legal consulting firm, revenue at law firms nationwide is on an upward arc, with revenue per partner up 5.3 percent last year. At the largest firms, the numbers are even better, it said.

But to keep that trend in motion, law firms need a steady supply of new hires to staff the ever-burgeoning amount of work. Although young lawyers are paid well - annual salaries for first-year lawyers at Philadelphia's largest firms rose this year to $145,000 - firms make much of their money on associates, who put in long hours but aren't paid as much as partners earning hundreds of thousands of dollars more.

That makes competition for young lawyers very sharp, with intense pressure on firms to keep salaries for top summer associates high, and to continue to court them after they return to law school.

"We want to get the best law students in the country to work for us, and we have to be competitive," said Paul Lantieri, one of two lawyers at Ballard who coordinate the summer-associate program there. He said Ballard paid summer associates $2,788 a week because "that is the going rate."

Many students and first-year associates need to earn a lot because they took out tens of thousands of dollars in loans to pay for their education, Lantieri said. He himself graduated from Harvard Law School several years ago with $100,000 in loans.

For Sarah Davies, the hiring partner at Cozen O'Connor, a 546-lawyer firm based in Center City, the summer programs give firms a chance to evaluate not only the legal skills of young law students but also their ability to fit in.

"We want to get to know each of our summer associates on a personal level, not just on a work level," she said. "We want to see what skills the person has, and that means the writing skills, their oral-communication skills, and their getting-along-with-people skills."

That means a steady flow of social events, where the summer interns mingle with partners and peers, building relationships they hope will help them move through the grid of institutional obstacles when they begin working full time. Chad Kurtz, a Temple law student interning at Cozen O'Connor, said the mix of legal work and social events had exposed him to not only the day-to-day practice of law but also top management.

Contrary to popular lore, most extracurricular events are modest. Firms hosted events at the Lucky Strike bowling alley in Center City this summer, tours of the Philadelphia Museum of Art, dinners and lunches all over town, and evenings at Phillies games.

But a few are over the top. Mega-firm Dechert took all 99 of its summer associates - including the 50 here - to London this summer to get a sense of how law is practiced in Britain and elsewhere in Europe. Dechert, which has 934 lawyers overall, has a 112-lawyer office in London.

"It gave us a holistic view of the firm and the international work that we do, and how the domestic work we do plays into that," said Shevon Rockett, a Dechert summer associate from Washington.

Summer interns at Philadelphia's Morgan, Lewis & Bockius - also a behemoth, ranking among the nation's largest firms with 1,252 lawyers - began their program with a two-day firmwide conclave in Santa Monica, Calif.

And in May, with a full moon overhead, a dozen or so WolfBlock interns shared cocktails and dinner with partners and local judges on the terrace of partner Jerome Shestack's duplex overlooking the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, City Hall, and the office towers of Center City. Shestack is a former head of the American Bar Association.

The big recruitment pitch, with campus visits, interviews, and highly orchestrated social routines for squadrons of summer associates, is largely the province of firms with several hundred or more lawyers. So, too, are the high salaries. Only a relative handful of graduates from top law schools can hope to earn that much straight out of school.

According to the National Association for Law Placement, a trade organization that focuses on recruitment and placement of lawyers, only 14 percent of all first-year lawyers hired in 2006 had salaries in the range of $135,000 to $145,000. Since, on a weekly basis, first-year salaries correspond with compensation for interns, the NALP statistics give an idea of how rarefied is the high-end market for summer internships.

Far more lawyers earn at the lower end of the scale. Forty-two percent of first-year lawyers in NALP's survey earned $55,000 or less, with most of those at smaller firms and in government jobs.

Jim Leipold, head of NALP, said the focus on salaries for interns and associates at the biggest firms had given many law students "an inflated expectation of their salaries."

Far more typical is the situation at Flaster Greenberg, a 70-lawyer firm with offices in Cherry Hill and Philadelphia. Peter Spirgel, head of the firm, said firms the size of Flaster Greenberg didn't need the huge number of entry-level hires that larger firms required to staff their big cases. Instead, the firm tends to hire lawyers with several years' experience.

If anything, the climate for summer associates in big firms has become more sober and work-oriented in recent years, said Lantieri of Ballard.

Most interns said they worked about 50 hours a week. That's less than the 70 or so many full-time lawyers work, but certainly not a schedule for a layabout.

In interviews, most summer associates focused far more on their work experiences than on after-hours activities. The first brush with professional responsibility seemed both thrilling and sobering.

"It was not stunningly different from what you did in law school," said Kathryn Rutigliano, a Boston College Law School student and summer associate at Cozen O'Connor. "It is just that there is so much more riding on it than your personal grade. . . . In law school, when you don't do well on an exam, the only person affected by that is you. It was eye-opening."

Contact staff writer Chris Mondics at 215-854-5957 or cmondics@phillynews.com

Philly absolutely sucks. Go to Philly if you want to litigate slip and falls.

"Mega-firm Dechert took all 99 of its summer associates - including the 50 here - to London this summer to get a sense of how law is practiced in Britain and elsewhere in Europe. Dechert, which has 934 lawyers overall, has a 112-lawyer office in London."

Jesus Christ! Seems a little extravagant, no?

Is this site just for greedy slime? I mean, all you talk about is money. Get a grip, you're junior associates, and pretty much worthless, as any partner worth his salt will tell you.

And by the way, Cozen O'Connor is horrible, a real sexist pigsty, and I hear there's a nasty sex discrimination suit in the pipeline that will show the market just what Steve and Pat are REALLY like.