Dean Spieler from Northeastern Law -- quoted in the article -- is a complete moron and hates the fact that many of her graduates go on to work at big firms. No wonder she cant raise any money -- she despises the people who have it.

I graduated in the top ten percent of my non-elite law school, member of law revew editorial board, moot court participate, etc...I couldn't even get an interview with what passes for biglaw in the midwest. I am now a junior associate at a firm where I have to bill 2000 hours a year to take home $71K.

4:24 - Perhaps this signifies that there are too many law schools.

BC, Middle of the class, top 100 firm. You don't need an elite school to get a top job without law review.

Thank you for posting this.

4:28 -- I agree. I wish someone would have told me before I spent the money and the time.

4:24

4:30 - the real problem is that the ABA has encouraged the creation of more and more law schools, but at the same time sanctioned incredibly high tuitions for those schools. If your JD cost you $30k instead of $150k you wouldn't be doing so badly. It's a scam.

I graduated in the top 10 percent of my non-elite law school, member of law revew editorial board, moot court participant, etc... and I got offers from two Big Law firms in NY. Did I simply interview better than 4:24?

All the big law firms in NYC (even the ones lower in the ranks) won't hire you if you're not top 10-15% at one of the local schools. And they talk about a shortage of associates...just because we don't have the grades does not mean we're not as good, if not better, than the always high bottom feeder at the "elite" schools

Who ever said that going to law school guaranteed you anything? You still have to be able to interview well, handle yourself socially, etc. The fact that the woman from Ohio State got interviews and couldn't land a job shows that she lacks interviewing skills, nothing more and nothing less. It's not a comment on the legal profession as such.

In general, this is not a tale of woe at all. If you choose to borrow thousands of dollars for a tier 3 or 4 school, thinking that it will pay off with a top-shelf starting salary, you're just stupid. It is evident to anyone who does any research that people from those schools do not populate the large corporate firms. So the fact that those folks are making relatively little money is hardly surprising.

It would be newsworthy if top 20 graduates were not getting jobs. That people at Ohio State aren't getting them is news to no one.

4:32
I couldn't get an interview...that's the point. The only interview I landed was with the firm I'm with now.

4:24

For what it's worth, I attend a third tier, nearly unknown law school. I also got in to two first tier law schools, but decided to go where I would be paying next to nothing. I am currently a Summer Associate with one of the biggest of the big law firms, as are about six or seven other people from my school (though I am alone at my particular firm). The people who got these jobs are pretty much the ones anyone would guess. Just throwing my experiences out there - I think perhaps the Third Tier is just less prone to luring people on the basis of these biglaw jobs.

I graduated in the top 20% of my class from a lower tier 1 law school. I am now clerking at a state trial court. It is very hard to get interviews in my city.

I finally got a job at a 14 attorney firm doing products liability, insurance coverage and professional liability. Many of my fellow clerks do not have jobs for September.

I start at $55,000. I am required to bill 1800 per year. My loan repayment is $1100 a month. It is tough out there! But I am optimistic that it will get better.

4:35,
At what point is a degree a fraud? When it charges $60,000 for $10/hour jobs?
You simply have no idea how bad it is in tier 2 law schools. Half of my school graduates unemployed!
Outside the top 10%, the only jobs available to us are awful $10-$20/hour jobs which work you death by dangling the promise of an offer in front of you.
Sure you can work hard, excel and do well eventually, but that's true of any job. The reason I went to law school was to get a leg up over the average citizen. People who go to good law schools get this advantage, people like me just get a $150,000 Sallie Mae rock on our backs.

Any knucklehead can get a job at any firm. Its just like any industry - if you can sell yourself (and you have something worthwhile to sell), you can sell yourself. Why else do we see a smattering of Tier 3 and Tier 4 graduates at pretty much every major firm? Do you really think that every associate at every major firm was top 10-15%? Yes it's a harder road to hoe from a Tier 3 or Tier 4 or with a lower GPA, but it can be done. Cry me a river, Loyola 2L....

All these people read the US News rankings that show employed-at-graduation rates, median salaries, and employment sectors. The only people to blame are students who're barely literate enough to take the LSAT but incapable of performing independent research.

So does anyone have any idea where the drop-off in big law jobs begins? I'm at a public law school ranked US News 10-20; when I did fall OCI I was at about 60th percentile in my class, and (barely) got an offer from a BigLaw Vault Top 50 firm (one of 3 offers in the Top 100). Is that normal?

I always assumed that Tier 3 and Tier 4 graduates at biglaw are there because they knew someone to get in the door.

Why does the ABA continue to accredit law schools like crazy? There's already a glut of attorneys, and the ABA seems to be making the problem a lot worse by letting these schools get away with it.

Here's the deal- not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up. Not everyone gets to be a big-firm lawyer either. If that's what you want out of law school, the glamour (who cares?) and the money (which, I admit, is sweet), go to the schools that get you there. If you can't get into the schools that plug you in to the big firm pipeline, don't be shocked when you don't get a big firm job.

This article is totally on point. It's all about dashed *expectations*. If everyone had realistic expecations, they wouldn't be dashed.

I went to law school to get exactly the job I've got now. If the law schools I got into couldn't get me into this job (or a reasonable facsimile), I wouldn't have gone to law school.

Manage your expectations and you won't be disappointed.

P.S.- I'm not a tierist. There are great folks at every tier. The problem is that some folks expect top tier employability from non-top tier schools.

I guess you can see why those of us making $55,000 find it a little galling when biglaw associates complain that they are "only" making $160,000 instead of the $175,000 the other big firms is paying....or the huge bonus isn't up to snuff. You should be grateful you have those jobs! Yes I am jealous!!

4:40,
Watch this video. Fast forward to 23:18 and listen to the grade cutoffs for 1. A public defender, 2. A large firm and 3. A small firm.
Loyola 2L
http://av.lls.edu/ramgen/classes/f2005/rv-ocs-eip2005-08-23.rm

4:42 (the second) - I knew nobody at the firm I work at before I got my summer position. I still might not get an offer - but I'm just saying.

We live in a country where some huge fraction of Americans habitually lives beyond their means. The percentage of people carrying thousands of dollars in credit card debt and the subprime lending crisis are but two examples of this. Why is anyone surprised to see that lawyers, like all too many in the rest of society, make poor financial decisions (e.g. evaluating their job/salary prospects coming out of law school). As 4:40 points out, this information is readily available, so there's no good excuse for taking on ~100K or more in debt without doing one's homework first.

Why are all of these people in Oklahoma and Ohio going to law school right after college? I have no sympathy for their debt problems when they are that irresponsible to begin with.

The kids don't want to work after college, tack on an additional $80K in debt, then complain when no one will hire them except at $45K. That is all they are worth at 24-26 years old with no real experience.

Even though there are firms out there that hire 24 year old with no experience at $160K, a little bit of good old fashioned common sense would at a minimum lead you to conclude that that is not common.

$50 bet that 4:35 (third posting) works at Skadden, which basically hires from all schools these days.

In response to 4:42

Law firms are bright enough to interview at a local Tier 3 or a Tier 4 school and grab the top student. Quite often, this is a person who is bright enough to be at a Tier 1 school, but isn't due to some factor like stupidity during freshman year in undergrad, or sickness during LSAT, or inability to afford a top school (basically something that won't affect his effectiveness as an associate).

Furthermore, often people go to big law after being 2-3 years out of law school. There are plenty of opportunities, if you are good at what you do. The burn out rate at biglaw firms is huge, and if you worked at a small or midsize firm and got enough exposure (and can interview well), you can get a biglaw firm job easily enough.

4:47,
How did you even get an interview? If you weren't top 5% why did your resume survive where as others got thrown into the waste bin?
Loyola 2L

200k in student loans, 3 degrees, JD from Third Tier-- Doing just fine, it takes a while but it will come. Hang in there.

low tier 1 grad, right in the middle of my class and am now at AmLaw top 50 firm. I'll be the first to tell you that I think I interview well and that my academic resume wasn't opening a ton of doors just by itself.

Although I am happy with my decision to get my JD, I agree that I had higher hopes (MUCH higher) of getting a biglaw job before I completed the process of on-campus recruiting during the fall of my 2L year. I am fortunate in that I was able to get an offer and will be working for a biglaw firm this fall, but I know how hard it can be for "non-elite" students to get similar positions. For instance, during the on-campus recruiting process, I secured interviews with 2 of the larger NY firms through what my school called the "lottery" system (employers must reserve a certain number of interview slots regardless of GPA, etc.). The FIRST question of the interviewer from firm 1, after he looked at my mediocre top 1/3 GPA, was "how did you get this interview"? And at the end of the interview with firm 2, the interviewer told me that "because of my GPA," I probably "wouldn't be a good fit" with the firm.
Of course, not all of my on-campus interviews were this terrible and I suppose they could have simply had an immediate distaste for me, but it does show what us "non-elite" students have to put up with.

yes, in debt, but i'm working my ass off until 4am to keep my firm's clients happy and to assuage the unmanageable egos of my very wealthy partners, who make my earnings look like chump change. no offense, but i don't know anyone working shit hours like mine who gets paid $55k.

also, i went to a 2nd tier school and worked my ass off and wound up at a v10 firm, as did my best friend. honestly, most of the people who are complaining about not having big firm jobs are the ones who would make fun of me first year for not going out. but i knew that if i didn't finish high, i wouldn't be able to earn the money i wanted. so i did, and i did, and now they're bitching about it? i know very few people who could actually hack it at a big firm who didn't get a job at one.

not trying to be cruel, but i think a lot of the people bitching about the unfairness of the system should take some responsibility 1) and do research on their job prospects before shouldering the amount of debt that law school requires and 2) for their work ethic during law school that landed them in the portion of the class that doesn't get recruited by the big boy firms.

"you can get a biglaw firm job easily enough."

What part of reality don't you people understand? Is there any limit on what you think is possible?

"Easily" implies a likely, or non-trivial probability. Something with a 5% chance of occuring isn't "easy" in any way, and you would be a fool to base your future on that outcome.

Loyola 2L

Am I the only one who finds the pic attached to this article just a little offensive? C'mon, Lat.

Loyola - My grades were up in that range. And I am definitely not getting an offer if I watch ATL this closely!

L2L - Sorry, no time for that. why don't you just tell us? Besides, who's "grade cutoffs" are you talking about? Most employers will find away to ignore their "grade cutoffs" if they can...

also, i'm complaining about my 160k salary because (i) the partners pull down more than 2 million a year and they never had the debt that i have and never worked the hours that i do; (ii) associate compensation, when adjusted for inflation, has NOT increased over the previous 125k salary; and (iii) it's a hell of a lot more expensive for me to live here than DC or Charlotte.

Actually, to update my earlier stat sheet - I just realized we are actually in the AMLaw Top 25. Woohoo!

If you are keeping score here, thats: barely tier 1 school, average grades, AmLaw Top 25.

Then watch the video later 4:40.

What firm ignores their grade cutoffs for tier 2 law schools? I want to know so I can send them my resume.

I got a job at a litigation boutique that employees about 13 attorneys with salaries starting in the six figures. Had I not done an externship (for school credit) and then volunteered to work for an additional month for *free* to finish up my projects, I probably wouldn't have this job. I was top 1/3 at a middle of the road tier-1 school.

The market is tough. You do what you have to do to land the job you want. Create opportunities for yourself and don't wait around for biglaw to come calling. That was my approach and it worked for me.

I went to a top 10 school. Pretty much everyone could get a bigfirm job if they wanted one.

Why not get an LLM from a real school? The rest of the world knows this.

No one at a tier 2 law school wants biglaw. Biglaw is a pipe dream and we know it. We just want a job which will pay off our student loans and leave us a little to live on.

But the only jobs the market offers us are at small firms paying $50,000 or so, and that's only if they like you during the $15/hour trial period.

Is the nation's economy this bad? It's not. I had a higher paying job BEFORE I attended law school, and that was in a small town!

Why is surprising that you can only land a 2d tier job after attending a 2d tier school? Stop whining.

Loyola 2L

"easily" means that I know quite a few people that accomplished this feat (finish low 2nd tier/3rd tier, work small/midsize firm, end up at larger firm). This was meant to encourage you not to give up hope, not to convince people to go to 4th tier schools (I doubt pre-lawschool people go to this blog)

People that end up at lower tiers have reasons as to why they are there. If the reason is stupidity, then yeah, they probably won't get a job. If there are other reasons, and the person is bright (and good at interviewing), that usually carries that person through to their goal, regardless the starting point.

Fraud. Here is what I propose. There should be about 50 fewer law schools in the US (to get rid of schools that will only serve to give salaries to wannabe professors - Harvard JD's from teh bottom of their class). It should be harder to get into law school (to prevent ppl from mindlessly drifting into obscene amounts of debt and to improve the quality of eventual members of the bar). The ABA should cap tuition for lawschool and lower interest rates for law school loans (b/c education is important for society and it should be enouraged). And a strong culture of local lawyer track and biglaw track depending on the school you go to should be established IN THE RECRUITMENT LITERATURE OF LAW SCHOOLS. Every law school is not equal and every law school should make a disclaimer as to this fact.

4:48(4)
I hope you're right. I'm coming up on two years now.

I have to agree with 4:48 (in response to 4:42). I got my biglaw job because I started off in a small firm and made a name for myself in the courtroom. The firm I work for now wouldn't even give me an interview when I graduated from law school. But they hired me instantly when I called and said I was looking for a job six years out of school. It just takes time...a proven track record will overshadow your resume any day of the week.

As someone pointed out in that Barta thread, in some cases, going to a local private school or a state school is more advantageous for getting a job in a large local firm than going to a higher ranked school with no local recognition. However, if you aren't hoping to practice in that local market, or your lower tier school's placement is weak all around, it's hard for me to feel sorry for you because you borrowed a bunch of money and your bet didn't pay off. Loyola 2L, even if I assume that your school is engaging in fraud, I'm not sure that it matters since you clearly have the internet skills to have posted on message boards 2 years ago and try to talk to Loyola LA students about their career prospects, etc. Did it occur to you at that point in time that you were taking a risk by borrowing that much money to go to school anywhere other than an Ivy League, or were you aware that it would be hard, but just assumed that you would be one of the few who would make it? I'm actually not trying to be an ass to you, but I'd like to hear more about what process you used in deciding to attend Loyola. Thanks.

Here is my question. Big firm lawyers sit on their butts and write papers. This is similar to getting good grades in college, and doing well on the LSAT. If you get a 3.3 in some bs major, what makes you think that you are going to be really good at sitting on your butt and writing papers?

I am not a math guy, so I didn't decide to be an engineer. And don't give me the "I am going to be a rainmaker or trial lawyer crap." The fact that big shot plaintiff's lawyers usually come from crap schools does not mean that you are going to be the next big shot plaintiff's lawyer.

I didn't know anyone to get my job here. I went to school to supplement my prior work experience (which was in entertainment with high profile clients) and I interviewed with one BigLaw on a whim. I never considered working for any other kind of firm than a small boutique entertainment firm, yet they woo'ed me into coming here (in NYC no less! I am from Los Angeles originally) so here I am.

When I interviewed with people at the firm, they brought up my extensive experience manging clients and other employees. It became clear to me that it was this that made me an attractive candidate.

I would recommend that people get real jobs for 3-4 years before going to law school. After that, as long as you have good job experience (and you actually prepare for your freaking interview) you can get your foot in the door just about anywhere.

I guess what I am supposed to say is... umm.. NYC to 190!

(was that right?)

What a bunch of babies. I graduated in the top 25% of my Tier 2 school (#65-#80) with journal (Non-Law Review) experience and moot court membership. Clerked for state judge for a year. Now, I work at a AM Law Top 200 firm in a secondary market. I make about $160K as mid-level, not the big law $210K, but it's more than liveable.

If you go to law school, accumulate over $75K in debt and do not start out making more than $100K, you are a moron, who is now an indentured servant. You are spending 3 years of your life on something, you should at least know the financials involved. It's not like overspending on the AMEX for a flat screen TV or a pair of shoes.

A little bit of reality, from our job board:

--------------------

#1 - A MINIMUM WAGE job.
Employer Name:
More about Employer: Law Offices of
Contact Name: XXX
Address: XXX
City: Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Telephone: 310-XXX
Facsimile: 310-XXX
E-Mail: XXX
Description: HOURS: Part-time. DURATION: Permanent. SALARY: Minimum wage. STUDENT LEVEL: 1L, 2L, 3L, Grads awaiting results, Grads admitted to bar. QUALIFICATIONS: Excellent analytical and organizational skills required. JOB DESCRIPTION: NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY! A young, aggressive Beverly Hills litigation Entertainment Law Firm seeks law students (any year) to work at least 25+ hours per week. You will, act as a law clerk, perform administrative duties (answer client phone calls, etc.), and assist in all phases of general substantive civil litigation (i.e. filing law suits, etc.). The Law Firm also does litigation in the following areas: Business, Corporate, Real Estate, Employment, and Personal Injury litigation (see our website at XXX for details). This is a great opportunity to possibly continue on as an attorney with the law firm upon Bar passage, gain useful hands on legal and law firm management skills to start your own practice that can not be gained at a large law firm, gain experience to possibly get a large law firm six figure job that requires prior work experience, and build your resume in general. This is also a great opportunity to learn how the rainmakers generate business and turn a profit. You will be assigned cases and supervised. You may directly observe the Senior Attorney. You may obtain a letter of recommendation upon satisfactory completion of the job. HOW TO APPLY: Fax resume to XXX
Date Entered: 07/09/07

-----------------

#2 - A $9/hour job.

Employer Name:
Contact Name: xxx
Address: xxx
City: Studio City, CA xxx
Telephone: xxx
Facsimile: xxx
E-Mail: xxx
Description: HOURS: Part-time. DURATION: Contract. SALARY: $9.00/hour. QUALIFICATIONS: Previous law firm experience is preferred but not required. JOB DESCRIPTION: Candidate will assist attorneys with various legal tasks, including preparing correspondence, filing, preparing memoranda, drafting pleadings, interviewing clients, responding to discovery, etc. EMPLOYER PRACTICE/DESCRIPTION: Litigation and Transactional Real Estate, Probate, Financial Planning, Landlord-Tenant Law and Tax. FIRM SIZE: 3 lawyers. NOTES: Flexible hours HOW TO APPLY: Submit resume and cover letter via email to xxx or fax to xxx.

------------

#3 - $20/hour - a high salary for Loyola's job board, but note how it requires top 50%.

Employer Name:
Contact Name: xxx
Address: xxx
City: xxx
Telephone: No Phone Specified
Facsimile: xxx
E-Mail: xxx
Description: HOURS: Part-time. DURATION: Permanent. SALARY: $20.00/hour. STUDENT LEVEL: 1L, 2L, 3L QUALIFICATIONS: Candidate must finish in top 50% of class and pay attention to detail with good research and writing skills. JOB DESCRIPTION: Law clerk will assist litigation attorney in discovery, investigation, and trial preparation, as well as legal research. EMPLOYER PRACTICE/DESCRIPTION: Trust and estate litigation. FIRM SIZE: 5 attorneys & 3 paralegals. NOTES: Candidate will also be expected to work during the school year. HOW TO APPLY: Submit resume, cover letter and transcript via email to xxx. No calls please.

L2L - If there is something else on your resume that makes it worthwhile, and your grades are still respectable, any employer will overlook a grade cutoff. Trust me. I'm actually on a biglaw hiring committee FYI.

And no, you can't send me your resume.

Can someone clarify what is tier 1 and what is tier 2, 3 and 4? Is this a reference to US News rankings, and tier 1 essentially the top 20 schools?

5:03,
To put it simply, I just didn't know it was this bad. Everyone seemed to talk about the high salaries of lawyers. They made it seem like an $80,000 salary was the worst case scenario. I don't want to go over everything I was told, but not one person presented the possibility of the awful small salary jobs we're now forced to take.
This is what needs to change. Schools need to give prospective students realistic employment figures.
Loyola 2L

Low Tier 2 school. Worked my ass off first year, got good grades, law review, all that... barely pushed into big law, but had to go through a secondary office, it wasn't easy.

One thing about interviews, having worked before law school (and been through a lot of interviews), I found that most lawyers have no clue how to interview or what to look for. It took me a while to catch on, but you can't be too aggressive or show that you're a go-getter (other than on paper) and close them, unless it's a certain type of interviewer.
Most can't handle it. OCIs are more of a beauty contest, do they like the way you look in person and on paper, just don't do anything to rock the boat.

But let's be honest, the drop off from big law to everything else is huge in terms of dollars and small in terms of (relative) expectations.

I don't know of another industry that has that kind of disparity.

It can be a 3x-4x difference for first year associates. That's a huge difference.

And law schools ain't exactly honest about that.

Tier 1 is top 50

Top 10 = Top 10, which is all that really matters

T1 = top 50
T2 = 51-100

Some think "T1" means more like top 25. Others think top 14. Others top 6. Others top 3. But common use dictates "top 50." That's how the US News used to do it until they eliminated the top two tiers for a "top 100" list.

"And no, you can't send me your resume."

Well announce your grade flexible firm so other tier 2 students can send you their resume. If you're telling the truth that is . . .

well, it sucks to be you guys. Everybody at Penn gets biglaw jobs, unless they don't want them. I was in the middle of my class and got 5 offers from vault top 20 firms (the only ones I bothered to interviewed with on campus). But I'm a smart guy who could get into an elite law school, so I think I deserve it.

Dear L2L: "All these people read the US News rankings that show employed-at-graduation rates, median salaries, and employment sectors. The only people to blame are students who're barely literate enough to take the LSAT but incapable of performing independent research."

Yes, my school is tied for #47. Like I said, that makes me barely Tier 1.

I love rankings.

4:52 (First),
"How did you get this interview"?
SO TRUE! I had a similar experience, although I am barely in the top 50% of a non-elite NYC school.

Here's my situation. I just graduated near the top (not *at* the top) of my non-elite Midwestern law school. My school does pretty well locally and nationally (4 circuit court clerks in my graduating class, several district courts, and a number of classmates heading for top firms in NYC (Cravath, S&C, Shearman)).

But I am ranked just low enough that I didn't get one of the top jobs, and yet I'm ranked high enough that employers assume I'm damaged goods because I don't have an offer. Last fall I interviewed for 5 federal clerkships and at 11 top Midwestern firms (geographically bound by my spouse's career), and here I am two weeks from the bar exam without a job.

Wah.

Penn Law: I believe I speak for most of the ATL readers in saying fuck off douche.

"Well announce your grade flexible firm so other tier 2 students can send you their resume. If you're telling the truth that is . . ."

No I will not. But if you honestly think that resumes get automatically tossed in the trash if they are in the top 17% and the "cutoff" is at 15%, then I can't help you.

"Everybody at Penn gets biglaw jobs, unless they don't want them. I was in the middle of my class and got 5 offers from vault top 20 firms."

This is my point. Your school was worth the tuition. Your school opened doors which otherwise would not have been open to you.

Of course not everyone needs to make $200k starting out, so there are plenty of other worthwhile schools.

But at some point a school turns into a ripoff. It turns into a scam by which top school grads make fat salaries by charging you $36,000 a year for a degree with very poor market value. These are the schools to avoid.

5:17 - Shearman troll

5:13 - classic and true.

i'm fellow penn grad and biglaw firms were handing out jobs like candy to anyone who wanted one.

Gallion OUT!

5:17,
Wow, I thought being top 25% and shut out was bad. That sounds awful. Hope you land on your feet.
Loyola 2L

Just FYI to whoever posted the comments, "In general, this is not a tale of woe at all. If you choose to borrow thousands of dollars for a tier 3 or 4 school, thinking that it will pay off with a top-shelf starting salary, you're just stupid....That people at Ohio State aren't getting them is news to no one."

Ohio State is top tier, ranked highest of the I believe seven law schools in Ohio. (I believe it is 32 or 33). So it should be news to you.

Loyola 2L, get some personal responsibility and shut up. You knew the stats coming into your school, you knew the cost of loans, and you took that risk. Next thing you'll want regulations of how much you can use on your credit card, or how much fat McDonald's puts into their fries. You made an economically poor decision, and you're the only one responsible for that. Graduate schools are for-profit businesses, and you're just contributing to an inefficient marketplace by refusing to research or investigate. The US News ratings were there, the school's Web site was there, and you just rushed blindly in with your lousy LSAT score and your pie-in-the-sky dreams. Sorry that someone found a way to make money off of you, but it's not their fault that they're more intelligent than you. Next, sue Coke for failing to put a smile on your face.

"ranked highest of the I believe seven law schools in Ohio"

Yeah, and we all know that the top law firms in Ohio are paying amazing salaries in that 7% unemployed wasteland.

9 law schools in Ohio. OSU is Tier 1, CWRU and Cincinnati Tier 2, the rest (Akron, Cleveland State, Capital, Dayton, Ohio Northern, Toledo) much farther down.

Too bad Penn was ranked 12 a few years ago, and is a relative newcomer to the top 10.

Lat - Thank you sooo much for shining the light on the rest of us.

I worked my rear off in law school, but didn't fall in the top 10% after first year - so I missed out on a lot of the OCI by the big firms. My grades went way up thereafter and I graduated top 15% from a very solid tier 2 school in metro NY. I was also law review. The big firms wouldnt have me, so i ended up doing insurance covergae (note: not insurance defense - there is a BIG difference).

Now I am billing 2500+ hours per year as a fourth year associate and bringing home about 130k pre-tax. Amazingly, this feels like living just above the poverty line in NYC - can buy real estate - can barely pay bills for a modest lifestyle. I'm very scared by the fact that I will have to fund a college education in about 18 years.

The firm I am at is great - I love the people and the work is interesting. However, the economics of this firm are that of an insurance coverage shop. Senior partner rates are ~$300/hr and my rate is just over 200.

There are big law shops which have insurance coverage practice groups and those associates make twice what I do. It is very frustrating.

My only hope is to make a name for myself and grow my resume beyond the education section.

Hopefully, I can lateral to a job that will put food on my table.

5:24,
So at what point is anything a fraud? Or do you think all fraud laws should be repealed? Does the word "fraud" raise any concern in you?
Loyola 2L

Loyola2L is exactly right. Penn (or any other top 20 school) is worth 200 grand because it gives you, in return, access to a fantastically high paying job. Paying 200 grand for a school that can't do that (and, indeed, can only get me a job that pays 50K) is UTTERLY MORONIC. Like everything else in life, only pay for it if it's worth it. I learned that when I was 3 years old. If you pay 200K for a 20 carat cubic zirconia, don't come complaining to me when you find it it isn't worth 50 bucks when you try to sell it. Who pays 200K to a bottom of the barrel law school and expects to get a cushy elite bigfirm job? Fools, that's who. Everyone in the middle, make a decision whether it is worth it to you and live by it. Don't come whining when you realize you made an awful mistake.

Gallion OUT!

Now I remember why Loyola 2L is the hugest tool out there.

Amen shut it. Get off your ass and quit complaining Loyola 2L. I've never gotten a job by bitching about not having one on line, and neither will you.

You know what's funny? A lot of the biglaw people bemoaning the use of the word "fraud" probably work in securities law!
They spend every minute at work helping clients comply with disclosure and fraud laws, but for some reason are unable to appreciate the same concept applied to a different space.
Loyola 2L

5:28
I was just thinking the same thing.

Tier two grad here. Lower tier two, in fact, although I wasn't even aware of that until I was a 2L. I, mean, I was vaguely aware that law schools were ranked somehow, but I hadn't bothered to actually do any research.

In fact, I had never even heard the term "biglaw" until -after- I graduated and I was shocked to find out that first year associates could make $145K or $160K. Making that much money was simply not in my realm of thought; as a 1L I genuinely expected to make $60K or $65K first year out, assuming I ended up in the top 25%. For me, that would've been amazing success.

Where I went to school, I think my expectations were pretty average. There was pretty much nobody I knew of who thought they were going to make $160K, or even $120K, or at least they didn't say it out loud.

I SA'd at a firm that paid, I estimate, $80-$90K for first years, and I literally could not believe how much money I was making. Nor could I believe how much money I was paid when I got an offer (for six figures) post-bar passage at a different firm. I'm still pinching myself, and I am dumbfounded at the people on this site who are bitching at making $145,000 their first year out.

Why does it matter what school you go to and what grades you get? One of the reasons is so that hiring partners and committees can cover their own butts. When a new associate flames out after 2 years because he or she can't handle 2100 billables a year, the real "partners" are going to want to know why. The answer? "How was I supposed to know? He or she was top 10% at a tier 1 school!" Is it fair? No. Is that how it works? Probably, to a certain degree.

Hey 5:26 - check what Penn is ranked now, numbnuts. Regardless, from your tone I am 100% sure it is ranked higher than your school.

Gallion OUT!

"I've never gotten a job by bitching about not having one on line, and neither will you."
I have a job. An awful, low paying sweatshop job.

5:24

I would disagree, what law schools often due amounts to false advertising. U.S. News is no better. Not everyone has insight into the legal world. Some people just want to be attorneys. So when they see average salary, they think it's like the rest of the fields. They don't realize that there's a huge disparity between biglaw and the rest of the field, and exactly how the entire process works.

E.g. as an undergrad I was a programmer, I went to relatively crappy school, but I had excellent grades and did a lot of side projects. Huge companies would interview me and offer or not based on my knowledge. The whole school prestige thing was secondary.

With law, prestige is everything since law school teaches almost nothing with respect to the actual practice of law. Not everyone knows this.

Get some real-world experience and seasoning now if you didn't get in between undergrad and law school. Best bets are JAG, DA/PD, Legal Aid, Peace Corps. My 4 years active duty in the Army out of college before law school opened doors that I wouldn't have even been able knock on. Buddies of mine who did JAG got priceless experience that played well later, getting them places that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to apply for.

Don't despair, but realize that you've got to pay your dues if you don't have the golden pedigree.

I have to go, so excuse me if I don't respond to any other comments, but thanks again for highlighting this article. Had I seen this article two years ago I would be debt free and making more money.
Loyola 2L

4:24 - BC is a pretty elite school. I'd say if you're not top 50 you're going to have a difficult time.

Look folks, its really quite simple. I got into a Tier 3 school, who offered me a scholarship. Would have cost me 50K. I also got into a number of Top 20s that offered me nothing. Being a person of moderate intelligence, I did my brief homework and found out that the Tier 3 school would likely get me a job that paid crap. So I said to myself, I'm not paying 50K (or any amount higher than that) for crap. The top 20s could get me an obscenely high paying job in return for 200K. So I said to myself, I will pay 200K to buy that job and a high paying future if I want one. It is a simple decision as to how much you are willing to pay and what you will get in return - like ALMOST EVERY OTHER DECISION IN LIFE. You do not get a free pass because you were ignorant or turned a blind eye to reality just like you do not get a free pass when you do that for ANY OTHER DECISION IN LIFE. If you need to make a certain amount of money to stay afloat and you invest in something that cannot give you the necessary return, it is your own fault plain and simple. A lot of people who go to Top 20 schools look at it as buying a bigfirm job and no more. They are, of course, correct - it is an excellent investment generally speaking for that desired result. While I may feel sorry for people who make bad investments, SUCH IS LIFE. You live by the decisions you make. It isn't fraud, you fools. 30 minutes of homework would have told you all you needed to know. It is no different than resale value for a car. Some 25K cars have very high resale value and some have very low. You can figure this out with about 10 minutes on the internet. If you buy one with low resale value out of ignorance or blind hope, you pay the price later. So shut the hell up.

Gallion OUT!

If you didn't get that big law job right out of law school you can still get it.

In my smaller firm I will get court experience that those in big law jobs will simply not get.

I plan to take 2 additional bar exams of neighboring states in Feb 2008 to make myself more marketable.

I interview pretty well. I have no doubt I will get a big law job in the next 2 to 3 years. In the meantime I will live frugally. You have to take a long term view.

Hey Penn guy....I hope you enjoy your douchebaggery.

I also went to a top 10 school, and had 25 offers from BigLaw firms. So I poop on your 5 offers.

poop poop poop.

(i really did have 25 offers...but i want to say, even i think that was wrong...if one person gets the same 25 offers, it makes life for the tier 3 and 4 difficult, when there are really a great bunch of people down there who are totally capable of doing the work.)

the managing partners of both Weil and Cadwalader went to tier 2 schools

Having been at firms characterized as "BIGLAW" I can say with certainty that if you are coming out of law school (at any tier) and truly want to develop real lawyering skills stay far away from "BIGLAW" You will do nothing there but paralegal work and be criticized to no end when your paragraphs are not properly justified. I honestly spent three years in a "BIG LAW" shop and practiced virtually no law whatsoever. Suck it up and develop real skills- Don't be the type of guy who at 50 years old still touts the law school he went to. By that time you should have real cases and victories to refer to- not just an ancient law degree and years of paper pushing.

"the managing partners of both Weil and Cadwalader went to tier 2 schools"

And even *they* don't recruit non top-10% tier 2s!

I am a 3rd tier grad who is now a 3rd year at a top 5 NY BigLaw. It can be done, but I worked very hard to get here.

Today I was having related conversation with a paralegal who is toying with the idea of going to law school. My question is how culpable are 3rd tier schools like mine for things like the "LEO" program, where academically unequiped students are given a two-week intensive "primer" on the law and then accepted into law school because they are under-represented in the profession?

My own observation was that these same students did not get into the top 20%, or on journals, or in many cases pass the bar the first time. So they get $150k in debt on the promise of having a chance, even though any reasonable mesure would suggest that they shouldn't have ever been admited to school. This doesn't improve their lives and certainly doesn't create a bunch of well prepared lawyers to serve their communities, especially when they can't pay their bills.

I agree with the comments above; too many schools, offering places to students who are not qualified and then leaving them high and dry.

Have any of you people heard of supply and demand? Do u think u have some "right" to a job? Boo hoo u cant get a job and u went to law school. Work a little harder and get a side job and ull make just as much money.

When I'm running a firm, I'm not going to hire any 3rd tier bottom of class people either. Why would I pay same salary to a person with lesser qualities?

Step it up people...Going to law school doesnt mean you should be a lawyer.

Enough with the "I went here, with GPA X and now I make Y". It's all anecdotal.

Recruiting is all about profiling. Folks assume things about me because of where I went to school. They assume those things because of general experience with my fellow students and alumni.

There's no question going to one of a select group of schools is a boon come recruiting time.

It's totally incredible that some people had "no idea" it could be tough to get a job in a big time legal market coming out of a small time school outside the market.

I knew I'd look better to employers coming out of the school I chose than if I'd gone somewhere else, regardless of my grades.

Oh, and one more thing- I worked my ass off in college to get into my law school, I worked my ass off to get the job I've got, and I'll continue working my ass off until I retire. *That*, my friends, is how you make the bucks.

Regardless of where you went to law school and what it is ranked, I think the point of the story is that majority of lawyers and law students struggle to get a good job, and after putting in the extra work and obtaining a JD from whatever school, it is just sad that this is the case.

So congrats to Penn guy for being so successful, but you aren't the reality for most. Educated people who worked hard should not have such a difficult time. The end.

1st tier ivy

I think the issue is that people feel that they have a right to the job because law schools, borderline, promise them a job and extract 30k+ a year in payment. The issue is that lawschools should be a little more forthcoming in tempering their students' expectations. Perhaps then there would be fewer lawshools and fewer people attempting to become lawyers.

To 5:57:

Hard work + education does not always equal having an easy time, nor should it (necessarily)

Elementary school teachers are educated and work damn hard, and get paid in peanuts and aggravation. That's bad.

Medieval History professors are educated and work hard, and have a tough time finding work. I find that less troubling.

You have the time you have, whether you "should" or not.

Some of the most succesful trial lawyers attended tier 2 and 3 and never participated in the race to the bottom A.K.A. "BIGLAW", See, Johnnie Cochran, Roy Black, Joseph Tacopina, Melvin Beli (deceased), F. Lee Bailey (Disbarred) to name but a few..

I go to a 2nd tier school "out west" and landed a summer assoc. gig w/ an east coast BigLaw. It's possible (def. need to be top of class, journals, luck), but difficult. If you are thinking about entering a Tier 2 but banking on a top salary, you better have reason to believe that you will be in the top 5%. Unless you are getting a (mostly) free-ride from a Tier 2, go to a Tier 1 if you have a choice.

any bets on what type of law 1st tier ivy practices?

9 law schools in Ohio. OSU is Tier 1, CWRU and Cincinnati Tier 2, the rest (Akron, Cleveland State, Capital, Dayton, Ohio Northern, Toledo) much farther down.

---------------------------

Here it is in black and white, proof that there are too many damn law schools. Why a rust belt shithole like Ohio needs NINE friggin law schools is a mystery to me.

it's a big state. but i agree, way too many law schools. they should cut out half of them.

to second "BIG LAW SUCKS ASS"

Big law sucks ass, there's a reason for the 80% attrition rate at the 5 year point. People are generally unhappy at biglaw firms, but it's the fastest way to pay off the debts, so people do it, and then usually go to smaller firms or in-house.

6.04

Melvin Belli went to BOALT.
F Lee Bailey went to BU.

both Tier 1

chapter two

Elementary school teachers are educated and work damn hard, and get paid in peanuts and aggravation. That's bad.

------------------------

"Work damn hard?" Like hell. 8-3 and summer off is easy street. Stop letting these whiny ass teachers brainwash you. They are generally morons who majored in education, assiduously avoiding any real classes, and now keep hours that are essentially part time. $0k is generous for that job.

And don't give me crap about time spent with lesson plans, grading papers, etc. These are fourth graders they are teaching. You slap an A on their Crayola mess, tape it to the wall for parents day, and its back to more coloring and 3+6=9.

Stick your average elementary school teacher in a serious white collar private-sector job, and they'd have a meltdown.

Johnnie Cochran is dead too.

I finished first year ranked 1 from bottom tier 2 school and interviewed at BigLaw in DC and NYC.

Some of the firms said - in a need for more associates - they were branching out to top students in lower ranked schools rather than bottom of the class students at Ivy Schools.

use Google

use Google

6:12 - classic line "0K is generous for that job".

Gallion OUT!

use google

Don't buy into the BIG LAW Farce- Only truly demented individuals survive in that environment for any length of time. Most regret the decision when they wake up to find themselves in their 40's with a $6,000 per month mortgage, $3,000 per month in child support, an additional 2K in Alimony and no money left to buy the bullets to end it all.

At the end of the law school app process, I had the choice of going to a Top-35 state school for virtually nothing (probably $40K total, including living costs) or a Top-12 school for a ton of money ($140K). A minimal amount of research, including talking with officials at both schools, led me to the conclusion that the top school would offer me opportunities the lesser-ranked school would not, especially on a nationwide scale. I would have to be the very top of the class at the Top-35 school in order to even approach the opportunities given middle of the pack students at the top-12 school. Ultimately, I opted for the more expensive, higher-ranked route and it has paid off immensely. I'm currently clerking for a federal appellate judge and will be heading to BigLaw and the big salaries this fall. I have little doubt that these opportunities would not have been available to me had I opted for the lower-ranked school. It's just the way it goes. And the effort I had to expend to make an informed choice was truly minimal. Anyone who hopes to make the obscene sums of money BigLaw pays should be willing to expend such minimal effort before jumping into an overpriced, underranked law school with your eyes shut.

Big Law is good for one thing. Paying off huge student loan debt in 3 to 4 years. Then you have the freedom to do what you want.

That's the only reason I want the job.

I am a middle aged lawyer with both big firm and law teaching experience. I have seen the work product of a lot of law students and recent law graduates. My experience is that there are wide disparities in ability between students with different credentials and from different schools.

Some young lawyers can't write while others write beautifully. Some have terrible organization skills while others could manage a complex transaction with ease. Some would make an awful impression on a client while others are polished and articulate. Some are just a lot smarter than others.

Grades and school reputation are imperfect proxies for ability, but they are proxies nonetheless. In my experience there is a rough correlation between the reputation of a school and the skill of its graduates. Generally, a young lawyer just graduated from Columbia or Michigan will produce better work than one recently graduated from a lesser known local school.

Moreover, given the kinds of fees that big firms charge their clients they justifiably want to hire smartest and most talented people they can. That is why they concentrate their offers at the more selective schools.

Smaller firms and government ages that charge lower fees and/or don't charge fees at all can better afford to take a risk on a less talented employee and to offer that employee on the job training. But a consequence is that they cannot afford to pay six figure starting salaries.

The bottom line is that we do not live in Lake Woebegone. We are not all above average. Those who are below average can find meaningful work, make a respectable living and pay off their loans. But they shouldn't be either surprised or resentful when they cannot score a top-paying job.

I will give my 2 cents.

I know you all expect to make tons of money being lawyers, however, being right out of law school you really don't bring much to the table. A big law firm has unlimited resources, and can afford to give 160,000 to a new asscoiate. It took me and my partners years to get to the point that we could make that kind of money. However, we did put our sweat and risk our homes to build this practice. To expect us to then hand over big money, the fruits of our labor, to someone right out of law school seems like a waste. Particularly in light of the fact that you really don't know much yet. To a firm like Skadden, you are being paid out of an endless pot of money that belongs to a faceless corporation. The money we pay associates is real money, that we really feel when we pay our associates. Most small firms do not have an endless supply of money. Also, if you do not bring in business, no matter how hard you work, you will never make big bucks at a small firm. That is because with smaller firms, the clients don't have unlimited funds. If your client is GM, you can bill thousands of hours and keep billing them, and they will likely not question the bill. With a small firm, the money is essentially made when they pay the retainer. The 20,000 they give out the outset may be the only money we see, and it may be like pulling teeth to get a replenishment. We happen to be doing well, and me and my partners would like to spend more time bringining in business. Having a couple of associates would hopefully free up some time to do that. That doesn't mean we are not also doing legal work. Trust me it will be a while before any new associate is handling our trial work. It will be a while before you draft a motion that doesn't have to be revised and gone over with a fine toothed comb.

The bottom line is this, you can take the job and make the most of it, learn something about running a business, learn how to litigate a case, meet nice people, make some connections. Or you can wallow about how people tricked you into going to law school.

I worked for a small firm for 5 years and didn't get past 55,000. A few years it was a bit higher because I brought in some business. However, despite not making much, I observed how the partners ran the business, learned how to rope in clients, learned how to do trial work and transfer real estate, and made a lot of contacts. Instead of waiting around to see if my bosses would make me partner I decided to use what I learned and start my own business with friends. In fact my partners and i met in court while we were all associates for different firms. We used our contacts and acquired knowledge to go out on our own and start our own business. Which now has 4 employees. We each drive nice cars, own homes. None of us went to Harvard, or top schools, but we all look back at our prior jobs as great learning experiences.

http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=2482

There are a number of routes to BigLaw, if that is your goal. It certainly helps to be a top student at a top 5 school.

But it can be achieved in other ways. I graduated from a bottom Tier 1 school towards the middle of the class. I took a job in government, which got me three years of great litigation experience (depositions, motions & trials). I was paid in magic beans (translation: the salary sucked - approx. $50k to start), which made it difficult to pay anything more than the minimum on my $85k in debt.

Then I got a good job at a small firm (not an ID toilet) that essentially doubled my salary. Within six months of working there I had several calls from recruiters who offered the prospect of doubling my salary again with a move to BigLaw. I turned the offer down because I am happy where I am and am not looking (for now) to make the jump to BigLaw. With my present salary, by the end of this year, I will have paid off all of my private loans (the Federal loans are at 2% interest, so I'm in no rush).

The point of this long ramble: that it can happen without going through OCI or getting the job directly out of school.

Listen, it's a stupid, stupid thing to do to go to a crap regional school, unless you have a burning passion to be a lawyer.

If you are doing it for the money, like most people, you have to be at the top of your class. And you don't know that coming in.

The rule is "Always go to the best law school you can get into."

Everyone knows that.

6:23 - thank god for someone else with common sense.

Here's the problem 6:01--the "Lake Wobegon Effect". Most people tends to thinks that they're better than average in a whole range of activities (which is statistically impossible in the aggregate). Remember that first week of law school where the speaker at orientation pointed out that 90% of 1Ls expect to be in the top 10% of the class? People contemplating going to law school are (typically) going to compare themselves to the class stars, not to the people graduating at the bottom of the class. And the academic stars (the top 5-10% of the class, say) do pretty well for themselves, employment-wise, at just about every law school. For example, Mayer Brown makes a practice of seeking out the top students from tier 2/3/4 schools. In economic terms, then, the lower-ranked law schools are essentially running tournements. People pay $30K/year (or whatever) for a chance at being in that small group that gets offers from big firms. On average, this isn't a very good gamble, but again, most people tend to think they're better than average.

Georgetown.

BOTTOM 25% (not a minority). 30+ Interviews, offers at Vault 50 firms in NY and LA.

Anybody stupid enough to attend a non T-25ish school with biglaw expectations deserves their fate.

"...and I said to myself, this is the business we've chosen!" -Hyman Roth

Question: What's big law?

Amlaw 50, 100, or 200?

I feel for the (Apologies!) idiots who made a bad choice, maybe because they didn't do their research. (Social darwinism at its finest.)

At the same time, Amen to 6:36 and 6:23 and the others that remarked that you should have done your homework and maybe some cost-benefit analysis.

I earn 160K, and I have 200K in debt. There are those at my firm who have the same salary and a hell of a lot less in debt, coming from a middle or lower tier 1 school. I sometimes regret not taking a scholarship at a lower ranked school. But you know what? I did jack shit at my top 10 school, and was guaranteed a BIGLAW job. The gamble (and the effort) at a middle tier school just isn't worth it (unless you have a full ride and NO EXPECTATIONS of a high-paying job).

A simple equation explains this.

Satisfaction = what you actually get - what you expect

If your expectation is too high in comparison to what you get, it will lead to negative satisfaction (dissatisfaction)

I think there is a lot of grief when information flows as freely as it does nowadays. When you read or hear about others doing so well, it is only natural that such information begins to shape and form your expectations, frequently inflating it.

The imbalance between the two leads to feelings of inferiority and it is worsened by the fact that we tend to overestimate ourselves, i.e. we think we deserve more. (95% of people think that they are smarter than a person of median/average intellect) Feelings of equality, "justice" and other emotions cloud our sense of place in the world. Unfortunately, reality is harsh (and objective), and more likely than not, you deserve what you are getting.

So how do we cure this? We need more information regarding mediocrity or at least more emphasis on it. We need to de-emphasize the sensationalism attached to the elite group. That would help people form more accurate expectations. But the problem is that such strategy flows against our natural curiosities. Mundane information is not newsworthy and has hard time getting people's attention despite being easily available and most readily applicable.

Loyola 2L, none of this is "fraud." That implies something was concealed from you. Nothing was concealed. Law schools engage in "mere puffery" promoting themselves, but the cold facts and data are easily and readily available to everybody. Your laughable claim that "if only I'd seen this article two years ago" is as foolish as the rich man begging Christ for Lazarus to tell his family about the perils of hell--no one would heed him. Had the late Chief Justice William Rehnquist visited you and implored you to consider other options, you wouldn't have listened.

Yeah, I mean, spending shitloads to go to a shitty law school is like buying a flat screen tv off the back of a truck.

Buyer beware. L2L explain how information was "concealed" from you.

I have a biglaw job;

Ur responses blow; you went to law school, u took CONTRACTS 101. You dont get the luxury of "relying" on what law schools tell you.

This is an ECONOMY the last time i checked. SUPPLY AND FREGEN DEMAND. NO ONE OWES YOU SHIT.

Pull yourself up on your own bootstraps and stop complaining. No one made you go to law school.

yeah pull yourself up by your bootstraps....like Emily Pataki who got a job at White and Case in NYC based on pure merit.....and then failed the NY bar exam!!! Her father's connections had nothing to do with her getting into CLS either

1st tier ivy ... is English your first language?

I don't mean that as a slam; I really want to know. Because your posts are so ... stilted. I can practically hear your accent.

To back up L2L, you realize paralegals and secretaries at biglaw make more than 80% of law school grads.

Nice to see some people busting out with a "puffing" jury instruction in response to the fraud claims. Litigators at work. Always.

This entry's picture should be: http://www.southparkx.net/gallery/data/media/1/toilet.jpg

What I find hard to believe is that a crowd of such (supposedly) intelligent people are so willing to accept all the anecdotal evidence that gets posted on this and other boards as the gospel truth. Anyone dumb enough to bank their future on stories about a guy who knows a guy who went to a T3 where the top third of the class landed biglaw jobs probably deserves the bankruptcy that's currently looming over their head.

During John Roberts confirmation hearing there was a senator who asked him what his views on international law were. His response was something to the effect that using international law to support your opinions is like looking at a big crowd of people; if you look long enough, eventually you'll find a friendly face. It's the same way with all the stories about T3 & T4 students landing biglaw jobs. There's a frickin' boatload of them out there, and if you look hard enough you'll find a story you like.

Maybe if you all had been smart enough to take some math and science as an undergrad you would have had the sense of mind to look at some real numbers before you went to law school. Try taking a look at http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/ Anyone crazy enough to drop 150K on a T3 school after looking at those probably doesn't have the mental capacity to make it at the firms they're trying to get into anyway.

I wonder how important undergrad education is for people who went to lower-ranked schools. I am a summer at one of the biggest NYC firms and we have quite a bit of people from places like Cardozo or New York Law School. However, they all seem to have gone to rather good undergraduate institutions - Cornell, Penn, Boston College, Vanderbilt, etc. Any thoughts? Is that normal for tier3 people (I don't mean to sound condescending, it's just a figure of speech).

Here's my story....from a boston tier 3 school, top 15%, trial/appellate team, with great work experience while in school....and landed a job with a NYbiglaw firm. Show energy and a work ethic and us little guys can make it. Admittingly, very few of my classmates got biglaw jobs in ny although many did in boston. It doesn't look good for most of us.

7:28 - Boston College UG troll, subtle Fordham troll

7:36 - TITCR

I stopped going to XO a month ago, I gotta get my kicks somehow.

7:28: I'm Ivy, bitch.

7:36: I'm Ivy, bitch.

And i'll take out every little ivy league brat on my way to partnership

-7:32

From 7:32 "Here's my story...."

Anyone with a brain should stop reading there. Unless you're just strangely interested in hearing about some stranger's live story there's no value to be had in what comes next. People lie, numbers don't.

Yeah. If you are so fucking dumb that hearing about the two or three people a year who graduate your shit law school with a job means YOU will get a job for sure, you kind of deserve your fate.

7:47 sounds like an ivy league brat who has never done his own laundry in his life.

and 7:47 punk, numbers or stats are the worst indicators of all. Ever read Twain or are you too busy being punk?

Took the scholarship @ T2, and now I have no debt and a federal clerkship at a competitive west coast, big city court. I am laughing at all the suckers that went to T1. IF they really had what it takes to be a good lawyer, they would have been at the top of their T2 class just like me. Now they have to face 100k in debt and can't clerk - they can't afford it. They are also still struggling to land big law, or if they are in big law, they are burning out on doc review (all anyone will put them on). Had they only gone T2, they would be debt free - still sucking - but at least not worried about how to pay off 100k.

P.S. This post does not apply to snotty little rich kids that need not worry about money anyhow. They should continue going ivy so that their parents don't lose face with their colleagues (who are more important than their families anyway).

7:52, Actually, no I'm not an ivy leaguer. I'm just a physics major at a mediocre state school who somehow wound up here. And sure, there are times when numbers can be used to misrepresent facts, but would you like to suggest a better method? Since you claim that numbers are the worst method of all it shouldn't be hard for you to give us an example of a better method. Perhaps we should all just believe the guy who said that he went to a T3 and the top third of his class went big law.

And yes, I have read twain. My question is whether you've ever cracked a math book or are just too busy with your weak sauce English Lit degree to learn how to analyze numbers?

I graduated from a school ranked in the 20s (US News), went into OCI just outside the top 1/3, graduated just outside of the top 20%. I SAd at a midsized firm. Before offers came, I jumped at a chance to interview with a BigLaw (Vault top 20) and got it.

When I interviewed, I focused on the value I could bring THEM, NOT the value they could bring ME. It sounds to me like the L2Ls of the world have a sense of entitlement that is totally unwarranted. You are only entitled to what you earn. If you get into a top 5 or 10 law school, you have earned something and will most likely be rewarded for it with BigLaw (if you want it). If you go to a tier 2 or lower, efficiency requires that firms assume you didn't earn a top 5 or 10 school. Is that so surprising?

What does that mean for the non-top 5 or 10? You have to earn it in other ways. Some earn it by having work experience before law school. Some do it with work experience after law school. Some do it by being fantastic interviewees. Some do it by being in the right place at the right time.

Bottom line: You have to earn everything in life, either directly or indirectly. The real world uses objective criteria to evaluate those earnings. If you haven't build up positive objective criteria, you are out of luck. Going to law school, of itself, is NOT positive objective criteria.

Focus on creating value and you will get value in return. Cry like a baby about how your law school or someone else screwed you (repleat with throwing around words like "fraud") is not going to create value.

Blaming the ABA for accrediting too many law schools is absurd. The ABA is a business. As with any business, they supply the demand. It is not their fault that a portion of those demanding a legal education are ignorant. It is not their job to sheild you from mistakes. Take some personal responsibility for your own decisions. Your current situation is an accumulation all of the decisions you've made in life. Why should the ABA or anyone else for that matter be blamed for your dissatisfaction that resulted from those decisions?

Although this is harsh, it is the truth: I wouldn't hire L2L because he sounds like someone who doesn't have what it takes to succeed. Entitlement issues. Lack of objective results. Lamenting his plight.

Suck it up and start creating value.

responding to 7:52- graduate of a top Liberal arts school, # 1 in economics major class with concentration in econometrics and politcal economy, jackoff...

clerky - you forgot to sign with, "Thanks, Ken Starr!"

ABA plans to tighten accreditation

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1183971980829

Judging by my V50 firm, the only non-T14 grads that have a shot at V100 firms with mediocre grades are BC, GW, ND and Vandy grads. Otherwise, rely on law review and great grades. If you arent at one of these schools OR do not have a top 20% GPA, you are going to have to justify taking a smaller firm job (100-200).

Wow -- we're in the biggest hiring boom in history, and you're all whining.
Firms are dipping deeper into lower tier schools than ever before, so stop complaining. You've got a better deal right now than you should have expected when you applied two years ago.

I was a 2L in 1992, and as a Penn student with good grades, I came through OCI with no summer offers -- 35 interviews on campus, 3 call backs, 0 offers. I worked in a five lawyer suburban office making $15 per hour, and they hired me as an independent contractor so I wouldn't be eligible for overtime (that's how illegitimate the place was).

And fifteen years later, I make more than $1 million per year.

Keep at it Loyola 2L, the fat lady hasn't sung.

The pomp that goes into some of these comments is downright hilarious. I'll bite my tongue and just say this - the suggestions made by the article and by comments here are wildly inaccurate with regards to Ohio State. Ohio State is great law school. It is currently ranked 31st in the country by US News, and has climbed about 4 spots per year over the last 3 years. Give it a few more years and Ohio State will be in the top half of the Top Tier.

leo, what field of law are you in? If I go into a $15/hour job, I want something with a future.

Why do people always list "moot court participant" as a credential? Maybe it's just my law school, but can't anyone participate in moot court? If you *win* moot court, that's another thing entirely.

PROTIP: LOYOLA 2L IS FLAME, HE IS NOT REALPROTIP: LOYOLA 2L IS FLAME, HE IS NOT REAL
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The second tier has state schools like both Rutgers and Temple. All three schools have excellent record for jobs for the top 3rd of their class (in Philly and NY markets) in addition to being 1/3 of the cost of private Tier 1. I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with recommending Tier 1 over those state schools (assuming you know you are smart enough to be in the top 3rd).

I got a job with a top specialty firm, making top dollar.

Oh, but wait, I didn't wait for someone to come to me and hand it to me. I worked for it.

Some of you people need to take your plastic spoons out of you mouths and figure out what it means to work. Mommy and Daddy clearly spent way too much time coddling your asses (L2L, etc). You are not owed shit just because you took a standardized test that got you into "the best law school you could get into."

I'm living proof that your grades/school on't get you your job or interview for that matter. Work gets it for you.

The $15 per hour job had no future in itself -- it was a waypoint. I took that job because I needed to do something, and used it as a bridge to the next job, which was a bridge to the next job, and so on . . . .

"Rutgers and Temple are three schools have excellent record for jobs for the top 3rd of their class (in Philly and NY markets)"

How do you define an excellent job? No chance in hell top 1/3 out of those schools is getting six figures.

Please tell me a little more Leo. I would like something tangible upon which to attach my imagination and hope.

Its not your law school that decides where you work its who you are. I came out of a tier 2 school top 5% yada yada ... From my limited experieince I'd say that most of the kids coming out of these lower schools at the top of the class getting big jobs are the kids that turned down 1st tier schools for free rides or kids that did nothing in college and had bad grades.

Maybe you people complaining about not having jobs should have worked harder in law school and if you did your best maybe it wasn't good enough.

Do a few people get lost in the cracks? Probably, but thats life.

4:24 - BC is an elite school. We're talking about schools outside of the top tier

I'm sure there's no formula to this, but I realized I had no future at the $15 per hour job, but I could put it on my resume as a law firm job, and even built a story around it -- how I liked their different approach, etc., but found I didn't fit in once I got there.

In the meanwhile, I built a relationship with a prof whose class I excelled in, and he recommended me to a clerkship with a state court judge.

I worked hard for the judge and impressed him, and he helped me make a lot of contacts in the local legal community.

I eventually got a good job, worked my ass off again, and I was rewarded for it.

Focus on someone who thinks you're good -- a professor, someone you've worked for, etc., and branch out from there. You've made your choice of going to law school -- no point in dropping out now, you're already stuck with huge debt. So make it work.

8:22 - I got my 6 figures

"How do you define an excellent job? No chance in hell top 1/3 out of those schools is getting six figures."

I may have exaggerated a bit. From personal knowledge Rutgers - top 20% was getting six figures, the next 5% is getting in the 90s, the next 10% have really good clerkships. The bottom half are fairly screwed though.

Not all of the 20% are in big law, some are getting in the lower 100s from large NJ firms

The crux of the matter is that for law school graduates there really is no middle ground. Six years ago in NYC you either had a job with $125,000 first year salary or were interviewing for jobs that paid less than $50,000 with minimal benefits. The was no middle ground. My expectation was that if I couldn't get a Biglaw job that I would at least find something in the $75K - $100K range. Those jobs did not exist for first years. I know because I was one of those people without a Biglaw job out of law school (bottom first tier) and ended taking one of those sub $50K jobs. I guessing the situation has not changed much since then.

This disparity between top level salaries and other entry level law jobs (3:1) doesn't always show through when looking at average and median salaries of recent graduates.

Just to be clear, I worked my ass off and am now at Biglaw in NYC.

Leo, what area are you in now?

hey 8:16 - I was on a moot court team that competed in national competitions with other schools (semi-finalist and best brief), not some weak internal school competition. Get with it, punk.

"I was on a moot court team that competed in national competitions with other schools (semi-finalist and best brief), not some weak internal school competition. Get with it, punk."

I've never been to law school, and I don't know much about interviews with big firms, but I'm guessing that's about as cool as being able to say that you were voted most likely to succeed by your high school class. It's neat, and it sounds prestigious to people that are still in high school or just out of it. But, two years down the road I bet people just don't even care about it anymore.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but that's just the impression I get.

I teach at a tier 3 school. Our top students go to Biglaw, some to good clerkships, others to nice regional firms. Sure, we give scholarships to some who could have gone to Tier 1 and 2 schools. No matter how they got here, these top students work their butts off. They are not the ones taking advantage of our classroom wireless network to post to this site during class. They are not the ones who, when called on, look up from their computer screens to ask "can you repeat the question?"

The bottom line is that the young lawyers making pots of money worked like dogs at some point. Some worked really hard as kids, had great high school grades and SATs and then went to grade-inflated Ivies and on to elite law schools where everyone gets top jobs. Others didn't do so well as kids, worked hard and excelled at non-elite state schools, had great LSATs, went to Tier 1 law schools and on to Biglaw. Still others didn't have top undergrad records, ended up at places like mine, worked really hard, and on to Biglaw.

My advice to folks like L2L is: get off this site (at least during the school year). Prepare for class. Yes, it's tougher to get big money with a degree from a lower ranked school, but that's life. You have to put in the work at some point.

You can always lateral to CWT, or summer there from Pitt and treat them like your ho.

Tier 3 Prof,

I'd be really interested in hearing about how you became a law professor and what kind of credentials you need to get a job in academia these days. I know it's off topic, but if you wouldn't mind indulging my question I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Sure, being at a top tier school, or even better a top 10 school, is great and will open doors for you. But - and not to sound campy - the only thing that truly closes a door for you is YOU. I'm at a top tier school with a good reputation, but it's not a top 10 school (not even close) and I'm not anywhere near the top of my class (closer to middle). I'm also not on a law review or journal, did not participate in moot court, and had no "real" work experience before law school (went straight through).

During 2L fall OCI, I applied to any firm with a good reputation and a good starting salary. I ended up with a bunch of callbacks, a few of which turned into offers. The most attractive offer and the one I took was from a "top" firm that had stated in their OCI literature: "top 10% & law review required." Compare this to a close friend with a similar pre-law school background (e.g. no experience, young, etc.), who though he got top 5%, was on law review and a moot court team, did not get a "top" job.

What was the difference? I sold myself. I never went to an on- or off-campus interview day where I was not the best dressed and best prepared student there. I kissed ass (artfully). I schmoozed (also, artfully). I even turned around an interview where the first thing the guy said to me after looking at the GPA and school on my resume: "We don't hire from outside of the top 5 or 10% from your school." My instinct and what most people do (I suppose) was to say "well, I guess we're both wasting our time." Instead I said "I know and that's why I'm so grateful for this opportunity. I hope when we're through you won't consider it to have been a waste of time." I got a callback. Then an offer. I was the only person at my school to get an offer from that firm and the only person at their offer dinner not at a top 15 school and/or on law review.

Suffice to say, you have to wow people. After a full day of looking at basically identical resumes, faces, suits, and personalities, you have to be someone the interviewer remembers. Because that interviewer is going back to the firm and he or she is going to get to pick a list of 3 or 5 people that the firm will invite back. In most everyone's list is that person that shouldn't really be there, but that made an "impression." Sure the firm will haircut most people's lists - especially if it was a junior associate doing your OCI interview - but if you're always the guy making the impression, it's going to pay off at some point.

Bottom line is: If you're like me you're not better than everyone else because of your grades, your extracurriculars, or your law school. It's cheesy as hell to say, but you have to find another way to stand out.

Oh that's nice.
You con me out of a fortune I can't pay back, accuse me of laziness because I dare post my experiences on the net, inflate your school's career prospects and then have the nerve to accuse me of not working hard, because I’m working a sweatship hourly summer job, rather than attending parties at a biglaw firm.
Listen carefully you fucking dirtbag. Fuck you. Fuck your family. Fuck your parents. Fuck your children. Fuck your school, and fuck every thing you buy with the salary you earn by conning people like me. Got it, asshole? You are the most vile piece of fraudster scum I have ever met. You should be ashamed of yourself every time you look your victims in the face. If you had an ounce of decency you would be here warning people not to waste their lives on your scam, instead you wish to promote it. Go to hell.
Loyola 2L

Litigation -- judges tend to know litigators, and my key contact was a judge.

You should also remember that in the long run, the best paying jobs aren't all at big law. Impress some successful plaintiffs lawyer and get him to take you under his wing. Do something.

You were expecting to follow a tried and true path that isn't there for you. OK, cry a little, but not publicly. Now pick yourself up and set out on another path.

Thanks Leo. The more I investigate the more I realize plaintiff's law is the way to go.

9:03: Academia is one area of law that is still extraordinarily snotty about credentials. Best route is top 10 school, law review, federal clerkship, biglaw for a couple of years. It also helps if you write a law review article before going on the market.

That said, there are other ways to get in. For instance, if you are genuinely interested in teaching and writing about tax or commercial law, you can make it in with less traditional credentials. If you don't have the traditionally sterling credentials, you also have to be willing to move to a place you might never have imagined living, like Toledo, Ohio. That said, there are lots of surprisingly nice smaller cities, and let's face it, you're not living in NY on a professor's salary without a wealthy spouse or a trust fund.

Lots of law professors blog about the hiring process. One place to look is PrawfsBlawg. Good luck!

"9:03: Academia is one area of law that is still extraordinarily snotty about credentials."

What a total fucking asshole.

"let's face it, you're not living in NY on a professor's salary without a wealthy spouse or a trust fund."

Does anything but BS come out of your mouth? Now you're claiming to be poor? We know what you make.

Texas: $185,037
Hofstra: $179,000
Touro: $172,125
Ohio State: $164,774
Houston: $157,301
George Washington: $154,900
Illinois: $153,829
Pace: $153,352
Florida State: $152,990
Connecticut: $151,500

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/02/how_many_law_pr.html

Nice mouth, L2L. I'm not accusing you of laziness, I'm suggesting that you spend your time and energy on the wrong things.

A few hours a week warning people about schools like yours is time well spent. Some of us care about our peers, and don't want to see them ripped off like we were.

But Tier 3 prof is right. Academia is a lot like Biglaw that way. Credentials get you in.

[though I do take exception to the comment about Toledo, which is not a totally horrible place. University of Toledo's law school is, however, a tough place to be. Why a low tier 3 school further shoots itself in the foot by using a C curve is totally beyond me].

well considering tier 3 professor is at a tier 3 law school, he obviously was the idiot at HLS and couldn't cut it at biglaw and couldn't be productive enough to write a few articles before trying to get a position at a decent school

as for L2L, i dont understand what the fuss is about. L2L is simply asking for $75K per year for 7 years of education and $200(K) worth of debt just for 3 years of education at a law school.

considering if you just went straight to work after u/grad or even a high school drop could earn WAY more than minimum wage for the hours that a law student has to put in studying

frankly i know people who are college dropouts making 60k.

in fact, police officers in suburbs of NY make over 100K.

indeed, garbage men in suburbs of NY make $60K with full benefits

the only people pissed at L2L are the fraudsters who rip people off

and this is coming from a person top 10% at top 5 university working at a big law top 5 whose sick of dirt bag lawyers and wannabes who flame a poor law student whose making minimum wage after 7 years of education and top 25% at a tier 2 law school

"But Tier 3 prof is right. Academia is a lot like Biglaw that way. Credentials get you in. "
Of course he's right. I objected to his "this is one area of the law" line, as if academia is different than other areas.
He knows how people from top schools get all the opportunities, and he knows the product he sells is worth jack shit, yet he still sells it.
I'm going for a jog.

9:21: supply and demand, buddy. There are a limited supply of clients dumb enough to pay big firm rates, which generate big firm salaries (and big firm ppp). Therefore, limited biglaw jobs.

And as discussed at length in this thread, there ARE an oversupply of law schools and an oversupply of lawyers. What do you think that does to salaries at the low end?

PSA: pensive = Loyola 2L = Tier 3 prof = leo = 90% of the anonymous posts, HTH

My 2 cents:

I took time off before and after undergrad, graduated top of a western tier 2 law school, law review, worked during my third year and got a state supreme court clerkship. I Always thought I would stay in my regional market, never thinking I would entertain a biglaw job. Then, I started getting serious about post-clerkship life and became disenchanted with my local market's seeming inability to reward excellent credentials.

I did some research and found the ONE dream firm I thought I actually might like to work at. After forwarding my resume blindly through their website, I got an interview - and ultimately the dream job at a very prestigious east coast firm.

I count my lucky stars all the time, yet at the same time I know I worked my ass off. I also think the firm appreciated my "life experiences" and my "nontraditional" approach to what I've done (although I've done it well) and was not some stamp from a cookie cutter.

My advice would be to follow your passions in life - if you're doing it for the $$, your fu**ink yourself in the long run.

9:25, if you've been reading this thread, you'd understand that L2L is stating that the oversuppy of law students is due to a lack of disclosure of the meaningful job opportunities and the puffery of law schools employment rates, which is tantamount to fraud.

As for the argument "I didn't get tricked" from the misrepresentation, L2L is asking for more disclosure. The fact that you didn't get tricked is irrelevant. I know many persons who did get tricked and don't have jobs.

As for "work harder," I'm sure they are trying to work harder and may eventually succeed, but that begs the question of law school fraud.

I only hang out with the kids at law school whose parents, like mine, are paying for it! Suckerz! We have biglaw jobs but dont care!
I hope mommy and daddy buy me a loft in brooklyn soon.

Yawn. A lot of whining out there from people who have no concept of dues-paying.

4:24 is complaining about making $35.50/hr. But she's learning the tools of her trade. How to write motions, take depositions, and the like. And in six or seven years, after she learns how to practice law, she'll figure out that $71k is less than 500 hours at the $150-$200/hr she's being billed out. And she'll have the names of a lot of clients in her rolodex. And she'll realize that fixed costs (malpractice and health insurance, office leases, copiers and the like) aren't so monumental -- probably less than $30k/yr in non-New York markets, less if she splits costs with others.

THAT's a recipe for ulcers for us (partners in mid-sized firms in big markets) who face increasing client resistance to our quoted hourly rates.

And "quoted" is the operative word. Don't think for a second that the hours you bill are the hours the client sees. Part of my job is to take your hours and run them through the reality filter. The 1,800 hours you "bill" get reduced with metronomic regularity at the partner/invoice level, where I slice time becaue my clients shouldn't pay $392 for the drafting of a motion to appoint a special process server (you laugh, but an associate tried to bill 1.4 hours for just that...). Of course, he may have spent that amount of time (yeah, right), but part of my job is also to have a pragmatic assessment of what the client will tolerate.

There are precious few junior attorneys (<4 yrs) who are worth a damn as they are, but we pay reasonable rates because we see potential. And, oddly enough, my partners and I actually like many of the kids we work with, and want to teach them about the practice of law. Fools, us.

So, L2L, STFU. Let the flyspecking begin.

-- ET!

If anybody got tricked, they have only themselves to blame. [and I think you mean "high paying" opportunities, not "meaningful", which to rational people means something a lot different].

Does anybody really go to Ohio Northern's law school thinking they have a chance at a big firm job? didn't think so. Big Ohio firms won't even look at the top 5% from that school.

9:46

You're once again missing the point. L2L isn't asking for a high paying job, more like one that pays more than minimum wage.

I would expect if I go to a tier 2 law school to make more than my garbage man who makes $60K + benefits and didn't graduate high school and works only 3 hours a day.

A few random observations:

(1) I'm not so sure that law is so different from many other industries and professions. It's highly competitive. A limited number of people make the highest salaries. Many others make very small salaries. In what industry are you guaranteed to make a lot of money simply by virtue of having gotten a degree? Look at nearly every industry and job out there -- from baseball players, to journalists, to actors, to architects -- a small percentage get the big bucks, and a large majority make quite little money.

Note that there are some exceptions in the realm of industries requiring a professional degree -- namely, certain areas of science and medicine, engineering, and similar such fields. I'd venture to say that in certain of these areas, you're almost assured of making pretty good money. Why? Because demand is high, and supply of qualified applicants is relatively low. On the other hand, pretty much anyone can get a law degree, and in recent years, pretty much everyone DOES get a law degree.

(2) Moot court. Not sure why this topic came up, but there are a few reasons why it's smart to list law school moot court on your resume. First, while anyone can compete in an internal competition, not everyone does. So simply showing that you had the initiative to do it looks better than not doing it. Second, there are pretty limited activities you can list under your law school; there's law review or another journal, academic awards, moot court, and other organizations. Moot court certainly shows more substance than saying you were a member of the "International Law Association" or some other organization that anyone can join by going to the first meeting (and getting the slice if pizza they give you at that intro meeting). Third, no one (aside from I guess the person who raised this issue) is going to hold it against you for listing moot court; someone might actually count it in your favor. If you're gunning for a high-paying job, why the heck wouldn't you list it?

"L2L is asking for more disclosure."

How much more can they do? They give average salaries. They give bar passage rates. They give employment rates at graduation and at 9 months. They divide up employment among private practice, public practice, clerkships, etc. There are US News reports, ABA official data, LSAC guides, and scores of independent resources. It would impossible to perform more disclosure without being self-defeating by drawing attention to negative elements of the school. Anyone with the ability to see should be able to find this information; apparently, L2L lacks sight.

How much debt do you guys carry coming out of law school?

Much has been said about wages but nearly nothing on the debt load (w/ specific numbers), even though that is the other side of the equation.

9:56: And the garbage man spends those 3 hours handling other people's garbage and goes home smelling like it.

Come to think of it, that's a lot like practicing law some days. Except we can't do it in 3 hours.

there are way too many law schools out there. where I practice, a certain fourth-tier school is known for flooding the market with hundreds of barely-qualified students every year, which results in depressed salaries and a glut of job applicants. the graduates from the better schools sometimes get lost in the shuffle of all the grads from Crummy U. School of Law. hence our state has a markedly lower bar passage rate than is the norm.

the problem is that too many people go to law school because they can't think of anything else to do, and the schools are more than happy to admit them and accept their money instead of perhaps thinking that society is not served well by casting unqualified J.D.s out into the world.

110K after graduating from UCLA+public interest job lined up at 40K=debt for life

lower tier 1, top 1/3 of class. ivy undergrad, though. am now going to biglaw nyc.

i got a decent amount of OCI interviews, but i also sent at at least 100 resumes on my own. i got interviews through OCI, i got interviews through cold resume dropping.

and i learned, by fucking it up MANY times in early interviews, how to say exactly what partners want to hear in interviews.

i don't know what got my foot in the door, but i do know, through personal experience, that interviewing is what keeps it there.

What kinda school isn't going to get you biglaw? From what I understand it's almost guaranteed to T14 grads, maybe even T25 grads if you are around the median. Am I wrong?

10:20

How badly did you do @ UCLA to not get biglaw?? It's arguably the best school in a major legal market.

IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, CAN I GET A JOB FASTER?

L2L IF YOU ARE SO UPSET START A LAWSUIT. IF YOU ARE REMOTELY DECENT LAWYER THEY'LL OFFER TO SETTLE WITHIN 1 YEAR.

10:20

How badly did you do @ UCLA to not get biglaw?? It's arguably the best school in a major legal market.

This is depressing. Over 200 posts and many of them are actually trying to be substantive.

What the hell happened to the WGWAG guy?

White Girls With Asian Guys

I just graduated this May from a third tier law school. I just missed making the top third of the class (34%), and I am starting a job after the bar at 70k with a performance bonus of 10-20k at a 30 attorney firm. Guaranteed 100+ by second year. I never thought I would get a job before I graduated, but I think I did because I clerked for a federal judge during my third year. (Don't know how I got that either). I also had a job during my first and second year, and did moot court. clerk and work my friends. Plus, I seem to have a knack for interviewing.

What about LRAP 10:20?

5:40 and 8:29 (likely the same BC troll)

A school that isn't even second best in a particular market is hardly "elite". Elite is top 14. Super elite is top 6 minus Penn.

Suffolk
150-200 attorney law firm
$125,000

Also:
8% of class
no journal/moot court

Also:
live at home
no girlfriend

OMG LOL! U TOTALLY BURND mE#!!!

Ass hat.

Those of you who think a top tier law school is a golden ticket are retarded. I went to a top five law school and can name more people than I can count on two hands who NEVER got firm jobs, and a couple who still don't have ANY job (these are people who graduated anywhere between three years and one year ago). They're by and large a normal, likable group whose grades were average-y, nothing spectacular, but certainly nothing shameful. At, again, a TOP FIVE school.

Difference is, lower-tier grads only have maybe 100K in debt (probably less, unless you got into your second-tier school by the skin of your teeth, in which case, be grateful anyone took you -- though you might've been better off looking to a job more suited to your intelligence level. Like waiting tables, which can actually make you pretty good money). These people are looking at closer to 200 or even 300K in total debt. So thank your lucky stars you didn't waste money on a top tier degree only to wind up with NO job and WAY more debt than you could ever hope to pay.

Give me a fucking break - that's because NYU isn't a "top five school."

rofl @ 11:08's attempt at flame.

THE TRANSFORMERS!!
ROBOTS IN DISGUISE

THE TRANSFORMERS!!
MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE!

If you can't get a biglaw job from a T25 you are retarded. Anything around the median, in this legal market, will get you biglaw SOMEWHERE in the country.

Also, BC may not be elite, but one should be able to get biglaw w/o a problem.

It's all about who you know. I graduated middle of my class from a shite school and I work for the government for little pay. Once you get a pretty high-profile gig going, work hard, and impress the right people, it's easier to get a job at a big law firm. Of course, I love my job now and have no intention of leaving although I get offers from firms. It's all about networking and getting that hook up. Once I stopped worrying about everyone else and got confident, it all fell into place. Stuart Smalley said it best, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."

2nd tier; no law review; moot court (and a champ, too); summer associate at decent (okay, booty) national firm; great clerkship/s (so lucky); now at a top ten NYC firm.

Big money, yes. but working right now.

ouch.

HATE BIGLAW BUT LUV THE CHEDDA...

Law school sucks. While 2nd, 3rd, and definitely 4th tier schools often have a larger amount of dumb people, there are plenty of reasons why extremely smart people may end up there.

Unlike a lot of other fields, where school actually teaches practical skills (see any tech or medical field) law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer and not much else (LRW is grossly inadequate). At graduation, most students still don't know their ass from their elbow in terms of actual legal practice. This is why it's next to impossible for brilliant students in the lower tiers to prove themselves to a potential employer....employers don't have anything substantive they can ask.

Students at top schools will get biglaw offers because they proved themselves by getting into the top schools. Students at the lower ranked schools, even if they are brilliant, will end up getting shafted (unless they are top of their class) until they get some legal experience or some other way to show a big firm that they are worth the investment. Problem is...it's a vicious circle, because they have too many loans to take a small firm job, but a big firm won't take them without experience.

It sucks extra hard for those that went to a lower ranked school because it was closer to home, or because it was cheaper, without realizing quite how much benefit a top school confers. (there are a few people at my tier 2 state school who were accepted into the top schools, but decided not to go because of financial constraints, most have succeeded regardless, but a few are still very bitter).

Ha!! Coming from a tier 2 state school, and comparing my peers to the average biglaw associate from some snooty ass expensive tier 1 school, I say with confidence that there are plenty of "dumb" people everywhere...

And remember, just because one might be a "brilliant" student, certainly does not mean he or she will be a "brilliant" lawyer.

by brilliant student i mean brilliant person (with potential to be a great lawyer) who is a student

ropes and gray has 2 summers from UB. weil hired 2 UB kids last year. throw in skadden, s & c, etc.

networking people

UB? WTF does that mean?

ub = "ttt" university at buffalo

240th!

Seriously I don't see what people get. If you can get into a T25 LS it's worth the 200k investment...cuz you can get biglaw if you want it. If you don't then you're taking a gamble...don't bitch when the results don't come.

Correction: Seriously I don't see what people get. If you can get into a T14 LS it's worth the 200k investment...cuz you can get biglaw if you want it. If you don't then you're taking a gamble...don't bitch when the results don't come.

Where do you get T25? I'm guessing Fordham troll.

went to a tier 2 school. graduated in the bottom half on my class. spent 3 years listening to a bunch of whiney little spoiled bitches talk about thier articles being due, and the moot court competition. Now I listen to them bitch about school not getting them jobs and what BS it is. I took my bottom half ranking, no journal, no moot court and talked to anyone who would listen.

I have my nice six-figure salary starting in the next couple of months.

rofl @ 11:51

Too many apologists in this thread for the government sanctioned fraud that is the law school tuition rip off.

The Federal Government should not be subsidizing loans for ultimately fraudulent ends.

These lower tier schools keep raising tuition as high as they can up to the maximum debt that can be borne by unsuspecting law students for something which has limited value.

This scam by the government, law schools, and bankers leaves the young person as the conned bagholder. It's really sad to see the strong prey on the weak and the cheerleaders for these economic predators so vocal on this site. Shame on you.

And some of those "whiney little spoiled bitches" make more per week in the summers after 1L year than you'll make in a week in "the next couple of months".

i'm studying for the bar dumbass. that's why i'm not working

Didn't ask. Makes no difference. Thanks for playing.

studd shouldying for the bar

You are an exception to the rule, and luck probably had quite a bit to do with whatever job you got (especially judging by your credentials).

I also went to a T2 and also at a biglaw firm, but there were plenty of my classmates, some of whom were insanely competent, who didn't get good jobs. My own job search was an exercise in frustration and I sent out more resumes than I can count, before lucking out and being in the right place at the right time to get an interview (which I nailed to get the job).

Yes you can get a good job from T2, but it is infinitely more difficult, and a lot of competent people get screwed over because they didn't realize it when they were picking schools.

Haha. Dude, english is my first language and so if your mother.

You dont know dick about Emily Pataki, and you dont know dick about going to a top 1-5 law school.

The people that are bitching are those that go to TTT law schools and do poorly. They are angry at the world and spiteful at those who got into better schools, do better, and get better jobs.

Emily Pataki may have failed the bar, but she is a brilliant girl. Passing the bar and remembering the difference b/w the MAD FIFI 4 and encumberances means shit.

Like I said before, no one made you be a lawyer, perhaps fry cook would be a better job for all you whiners out there.

Law School is a business, not a public service. If you dont climb up the ranks, DO SOMETHING ELSE. Stop whining on a message board.

Common sense and real work experience are the 2 most underrated characteristics that most law students lack. Unless you went to T10 school (in which case you pass GO and collect $160,000) you have to show that you are more than just a cookie cutter kid out of law school.

I took 4 years off between u/grad and Law school and it was the best investment I ever made. I look back now and shudder to think of what my "people skills" were like fresh out of undergrad. If I were a biglaw recruiter, I wouldn't have hired me at that point. It was good for me to have that time to grow up, mature and learn a thing or two about personal interactions. This lesson became crystal clear during OCI. I went to a lower tier 1 school and was in top 15% after 1st year...not a lock to get biglaw, but I had more interviews, call backs, and offers for biglaw than some friends of mine who were top 10% or 5% because I can carry a conversation, look people in the eye, answer questions not recite a script, and I even made a guy laugh once. The point is, getting an interview can be a bit arbitrary, but the path you take from there is not.

P.S.-for all the law students who have been told (like I was) that a joint degree is pointless...that is nonsense! Anything you can do to stand out is helpful and it drastically improves your marketability. It shows that you have a particular focus, direction, or interest which biglaw likes, if not for the degree itself, then for the statement it makes about your work ethic, attitude, and drive.

10:1 1st tier Ivy=Penn or Cornell

Don't kid yourself. Both are safety schools for top applicants.

I went to Cornell. Ever heard of it?

"a lot of competent people get screwed over because they didn't realize it when they were picking schools."

Conventional wisdom say that you go to the best law school you can get into, and thes "competent people" do. That doesn't screw them, their work ethic does. Yes, they are competent and smart (with the books anyway), but many of them enter law school w/ a chip b/c they didn't get into their 1st choice. Instead of dealing with it, they piss and moan, and wait for the job fairy to come. They're are lazy, and think the world owes them.

Maybe luck played a part in it, but mostly it was me going out there and geting the job. I agree that it wasn't easy, but why should it be easy? I wasn't owed anything, lied to, or screwed over. I made the decisions. No one held a gun to my head or anyone elses.

(that's why all hippies should have been sterilized - look at what their kids have become.)

Weren't you on my disc golf team?

11:58

There is no diff between job prospects of a cornell/nw graduate as opposed to a ucla/tx/vandy grad. Maybe I should have said T20...

Yes, I live to Frolf!

12:24

T14

12:17 obviously didn't get into Penn.

What is this T-5 nonsense? We have a T, T-3, T-6, and T-14. Within those groupings, the schools bounce around through the ranks with each new edition of USNews, making the difference in any single year pretty meaningless.

This is how it works:

Yale

Stanford/Harvard

Columbia/NYU/Chicago

Boalt/Penn/Cornell/Duke/Michigan/UVa/Northwestern/Georgetown

I graduated from a T-14 where I received a great education. For the record, I'm also convinced that -- jobwise, not necessarily clerkship wise -- I had pretty much the same opportunities I would have had if I had come out of Columbia, NYU, or Chicago (but, as luck would have it, took out about $50,000 fewer in loans because the cost of living was a lot less than it would have been in NYC). I might have had a few different options had I been a top student coming out of Stanford or Harvard. And Yale probably would have opened some doors/fields I'm not even aware exist. But, for the most part, I think BigLaw firms hire heavily from throughout the T-14.

"There is no diff between job prospects of a cornell/nw graduate as opposed to a ucla/tx/vandy grad."

Disagree.

(1) Cornell and NW have more of a national reputation than UCLA, TX, or Vandy (although those are certainly good schools). Most from Cornell or NW won't have any problems getting an NYC/Chi/DC/SF/LA/etc Big Law offer.

(2) Firms are willing to go deeper into the rankings for a Cornell or NW student than they would for a Vandy, UCLA, or TX student.

However, if you want to work in the South, TX or Vandy can take you exactly where you need to go, no problem; same for UCLA and So. Cal. (Cornell and NW could get you there, too, but it might make sense to save the cash if you knew you wanted to stay in those areas.)

I just feel that the law recruiting process is one that may inevitably overlook qualified candidates purely based on the ranking of the school. Some of the rankings (especially outside the T25) are insanely subjective and often don't say anything about the quality of the school. One of the things USNews looks at is the size of the library. REALLY? Library size? When 90% of students due research via lexis and westlaw? The other thing they look at is the donations, so some schools ask for donations of $1 and then report 100% of people as having donated.

/dean asked my graduating class to donate books to bring up rankings

12:59

"students due research"

Someone should have spent more time in his tiny library.

01:02
or gotten more sleep whichever. (kan't beleev I rote "due")

Everyone knows a T6 is worth paying for.
But what about a "barely out of T14" school (UCLA, USC, Vandy, GW) vs. a tier 2 on full scholarship? That's a tough call.

My stats: Top 50% of Top 10 school; Biglaw job at graduation, Biglaw job now

1. There are too many law schools. Too many law students simply are not academically qualified for the practice of law. Reducing the number of schools and law students would solve some lawyer under-employment issues and also would solve some of the bar passage problems. Shame on low tier law schools for trying to convince applicants that they offer a realistic chance at certain legal jobs.

2. A lot of the anecdotes here completely depend on when you came out of law school. I came out the year the market started to slow, and I have many friends who could not find Biglaw jobs for over a year post-graduation. It is entirely possible for Top 10 grads not to be hired by Biglaw, esp. in a down market. In the last couple of years, firms are having to rebuild the junior associate ranks, so job offers are now being thrown around. But the market will over-correct again, there will be lay-offs, and hiring will slow considerably. All of the "anecdotes" here need some context.

3. Law schools focus on the positive and skew their hire rates to make their schools look good. But any 21 y.o. college senior who can't see through the glossy brochure's hyperbole to understand that "top-paying jobs" don't go to all grads, esp. at lower tier schools, is not smart enough to be a lawyer. Any student considering law school who isn't diligent enough to research the field (if a "top-paying job" is the individual's reason for going to law school), the job market, and the realities of law school and placement is not diligent enough to be a lawyer.

4. I'm on my Biglaw firm's recruiting committee. If a non-Top 14 summer associate candidate isn't top 30% (and top 10% outside of Tier 1) or is not diverse (hey, I don't make the rules), I take note - and the candidate has to prove to me in the interview that they are more than just their grades and that they really are bright enough and diligent enough to do the work. And I'm only looking at resumes of students who already have callbacks - I can count on two hands the number of tier 2 and 3 resumes I've ever seen.

Why do I perpetuate this elitism? Well, it makes my own diploma look that much better, but more importably it's because I know how hard I worked in college to get into my Top 10 law school - which was not very hard at all (and I didn't go to a grade-inflated undergrad school, and I don't have some touchy-feely, everyone gets an A liberal arts degree). So, I can only imagine how little those from lower tier schools worked in college (or how unnaturally gifted they are). The ONLY reasons for going to a tier 3 or 4 law school and expecting a large law firm job are because the school is local and you can't relocate or because you can't afford law school any other way. And even then, you attend the tier 3 or 4 school at your own peril, knowing that you have to be at the very top of your class to secure a job. Attending a lower ranked school, except for very specific reasons (geographic limitations or money), shows poor judgment and foresight.

Always go to the best school you get into, and if you don't get into a sufficiently highly ranked school, reconsider altogether.

"4. I'm on my Biglaw firm's recruiting committee. If a non-Top 14 summer associate candidate isn't top 30% (and top 10% outside of Tier 1) or is not diverse (hey, I don't make the rules), I take note - and the candidate has to prove to me in the interview that they are more than just their grades and that they really are bright enough and diligent enough to do the work. And I'm only looking at resumes of students who already have callbacks - I can count on two hands the number of tier 2 and 3 resumes I've ever seen."
Thanks for the insight dood.

From the Loyola Law School web site:

Most students face a major decision when they complete their legal education-what next?? Loyola students are supported throughout law school by career services professionals committed to vigorously pursuing employment opportunities for graduates.

So take heed and take heart Loyola 2L. As Kevin Federline might say, "[Nationwide] Loyola is on your side."

LRAP is a joke at a public law school. UCLA is making changes, but I wish I would have known that before I said no to Northwestern and U Penn.

What is this LRAP you speak of?

Just did a search on Cravath's webpage.

The results:

Syracuse has 5 grads working at Cravath. That's one more than Duke (with 4), one less than Michigan (with 6) and only two less than UVa (with 7). Granted, two of Syracuse's grads working at Cravath are "discovery attorneys" (the equivalent of a contract attorney?) but two of them are associates and one a partner.

Beating out Cornell's 15 Cravath attorneys (two of which are discovery attorneys) at Cravath is Fordham which has 31 grads (5 of which are discovery attorneys) working at Cravath.

My point? You CAN make it to the top from a lower-ranked school.

"1. There are too many law schools. Too many law students simply are not academically qualified for the practice of law. Reducing the number of schools and law students would solve some lawyer under-employment issues and also would solve some of the bar passage problems. Shame on low tier law schools for trying to convince applicants that they offer a realistic chance at certain legal jobs."

It goes beyond merely tier three and four schools, I can think of at least 20 schools in the top tier that shouldn't be accredited, and even more in the second tier. Unless you're in a major market, you shouldn't even think about Biglaw jobs. I'm talking to you, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Illinois, Washington and Lee, William and Mary, WUSTL, BU, and BC. And if I didn't include you, it's because you're even worse than those schools.

You provide lawyers in legal markets that either don't offer BIGLAW jobs, or in markets that are already saturated by better schools. Where the hell is an Iowa grad going to go in BIGLAW, for example? or even if they're from Wisconsin, the Milwaulkee market will be filled by those from NU or Chicago who couldn't get jobs in Chicago/NYC/DC/LA.

Really, we only need maybe 50-60 law schools in this country, and it's economically foolish to have more than that. If you don't get into Vanderbilt/USC or better, you're better off not going. Even that political science degree will pay better than the crap job you'll get coming out of Minnesota.

All of the people using "fraud" so loosely on this page deserve to fail the bar the inevitable 4 times that they take it.

I take great pleasure in saying that Georgetown, BU, and BC suck ass. I applied to all three and got rejected.

Instead, I got into a top 10 school, did very well, and got offers from every one of the top 10 Vault firms except Davis Polk and Wachtell (firms I didn't interview with).

The more I'm in the profession of law, the more I realize that this is all a game. Don't try to fight it; just accept it. Sure, there are anomolies where a W&L grad goes to Sullivan or a Tulane grad heads to Simpson. But the operative word: anomolies. Those folks have to grind a way for that chance. More power to them, but if you can take a better road, why not take it?

The other thing is this. Generally speaking, graduates coming out of Boston University are not the same as those coming out of Cornell. That's a rough cut of things, but pretty accurate in the larger sense. Firms are factories which hire a shitload of students every year. At a minimum, they want two things: (i) to showcase to clients they have a great bench of talent and (ii) to get as much productivity out of these associates as possible without having to teach the average student at Villanova how to write (something that they should have learned while a undergrad).

I don't mean to lump Georgetown in with BU and BC, but they kind of deserve it. They're a factory, maybe one that's better located than Boston, but they still suck.

I still remember a man by the name of Andy Cornblatt (https://www.law.georgetown.edu/alumni/publications/2004/magazine/spring04/images/adminiatrationspring2004_1.jpg).

He's a graduate of BC Law. What is this stellar graduate doing now?

Why, he's dean of admissions at Georgetown Law, and he wouldn't give me the time of day when I applied there. He, and almost every other idiotic bureucrat in the law school admissions industry, probably couldn't survive outside the world of "administration." But Andy sure is comfortable. He serves on things like the Student and Faculty Life Committee and is advisor to G-town "Student Ambassadors."

Anyway, back to my point. Students who are dumb (or, more precisely, desperate) enough to pay $100K+ to go to U-Conn, W&L, St. Johns, or Emory (no particular order there) can't expect to be in the same league as someone at Penn, Yale, Cornell, Duke, Harvard, or Columbia (no particular order there). Is this elitist? Yes. Is this unfair? Yes. But you can still have a terrific career in law and can still make a difference in the profession. Remember this.

Then again, if things get tough or you just want a more comfortable gig, become an admissions officer. Any openings, Andy?

5:19 - Putting Fordham in the same category as Syracuse? LOL!!!!

Georgetown is a factory. I go there. I hate it.

Ok I'll give in and give my story.
I graduated top 2% from Tier 2 lawschool in the southeast (just ranked inside the Top 100, which is Tier 2 under the USNEWS rankings, but not according to some on here). I was on law review, moot court, etc. etc. I had plenty of opportunities to interview for BIGLAW jobs in the ATL after my first year b/c I did not want to. When I went to law school, I had no intention of working in BIGLAW. Sure, the money would be nice, but it wasn't for me. Also, I could have gone to much better law schools, but I chose not too b/c I got a scholly to my school and instead of spending an extra 100K, decided to go to the lower ranked school. Now, I did have a hard time looking for a job my third year b/c I did not "summer" at a big firm. Instead, i clerked a well respected small firm in the city where my law school is located. Didn't make much money but got a lot of experience. So, come 3L fall, it was a little stressful to find the job that I wanted, but I could have found it. I had several callback interviews. I eventually landed a federal district court clerkship. After that, I don't know what I'll do. I would like to start my own firm in about 3 to 5 years after my clerkship ends. As far was what type of firm to work at in the interim, I am not really sure.

I would like to say that I think its truly ridiculous for some people to think you HAVE to go the highest ranked law school and take the MOST prestigious highest paying BIGLAW job. This simply reinforces my belief that the law is filled with insecure people who are hypercompetitive, arrogant elitists. Did any of you all ever think that some people make decisions in life based on decisions other than prestige and money. Some people make lifestyle decisions. For example, I am not interested in BIGLAW because I don't want that lifestyle AND I want to actually practice law. I have respect for people who choose BIGLAW if thats what they want to do, but I want more hands on experience than I would receive in a BIGLAW shop. Some people also choose their lawschool based on lifestyle decisions, such as location, money, costs, etc. My decisions was based on those reasons b/c I could have gone to a higher ranked school. So not everybody at the Tier 2 schools is a worthless bottom feeder. And not everybody at a small firm is a worthless bottom feeder either. Sure there are some small firms who have incompetent lawyers, and I agree that on the whole, BIGLAW shops have higher quality attorneys b/c thats just the economics of it--more money equals better talent. But to pigeon hole everybody at a lower ranked school and smaller less prestigious firm is stupid and elitist. I have seen all sorts of elitism here. Every regional elitism. "If you don't live in NYC, you are an incompetent lawyer" etc. etc.

So, just to summarize. I am happy with my decision. Maybe I would have done things a little different, but I'm sure most people would. The legal community does not revolve around BIGLAW. There are all sorts of other types of firms out there. The law is very, very diverse and many people on here don't appreciate that diversity.

Ist Tier Ivey wrote:"Emily Pataki may have failed the bar, but she is a brilliant girl. Passing the bar and remembering the difference b/w the MAD FIFI 4 and encumberances means shit."

what a load of crap. I worked with Emily Pataki at Blommberg LP and she was not the brightest bulb in the bunch. In fact she also got that job because her daddy knew Mike Bloomberg.

Isn't it interesting that when she is anonymous candidate #363547 rather than a Pataki, she can't make the cut.

The bar exam is not simply a memory test as you claim. It is a memory test that applies law to facts to reach the correct conclusion, under time pressure. The fact that she failed it shows you that she certainly took a more deserving applicant's place at CLS....and probably a position at white and Case. That's what I call affirmative action for rich white people.

"I graduated top 2% from Tier 2 lawschool in the southeast"

You have a 1 in 50 story. Tell us how the kids below the median did.

Also, Emory does your schools job for providing that region with lawyers. Your school should be contracted.

8:30: I'm not disagreeing with you. The "kids below the median" are having a hard time. I'm sure that kids below the median at some better law schools are even having a better time. If you want a job in BIGLAW, the safest road is a Top 14 law school b/c you can finish just about anywhere and still have reasonably good chances at landing a BIGLAW job unless you are a constant drooler.

But why the comment about "Emory does your schools job for providing that region with lawyers." First of all, the region--the "southeast" has plenty of great law schools, including Duke (though most lawyers go to NY), UNC, Vandy, etc. But your comment is based on this notion that you HAVE to go the best law school. Sorry man but there are plenty of other good law schools in the southeast, even in GA for that matter. UGA has had 2 or 3 Supreme Court clerks the past few years. How many has Emory had? Again, Emory is not the only law school in the south and not the only law school in GA. My school is in GA, but everybody on law review who wanted a BIGLAW job in ATL got a BIGLAW job and about a dozen people not on law review got the same. I'm not saying that my school is better than Emory b/c I'm sure Emory gets more qualified applicants and the students, as a whole, have better job prospects, but to suggest that Emory is the supplier of lawyers is stupid.

I'm not saying that's how it is. I'm saying that's how it should be. The best way to end this glut of lawyers is to close most law schools and up the standards for being a lawyer. We have one of the most permissive bar associations in the world, and as such have far too many lawyers per capita. We simply don't need 40,000 law graduates each year.

That doesn't mean only top tier schools will stay open. I could see a strong argument for a school such as Texas Tech or Wyoming staying open due to it's regional nature. But lets not kid ourselves, if it's going to cost people more than they'll get back to go to Denver, close it and let the Colorado lawyers needs be handled by UC-Boulder.

10:55
LOL at the BU Troll.

8:42: your comment would hold more weight if every law graduate not only became a lawyer but was also a lawyer 10 years after graduation. I think something like 40% of law graduates are not practicing law after 10 years. But, I do agree to a certain extent. There should be fewer law schools, I just don't think I'd be willing to go as far as you would. But surely, 9 law schools in OH is ludicrous. And FL? They have 10 and the number will keep growing.

8:45am: I wonder how many of those 40% come from which circumstances. If it's true that the higher the class rank/higher ranked schools tend to have a greater rate of retention in the field, I think that'd only strengthen my point.

Regardless, it's a pipe dream on my part.

After summering at BigLaw, I think it's funny that you think that you need a Harvard law degree to do some of the things first and second year associates do.

I'm pretty sure I could have done some of this stuff when I was in high school...

8:50: I was thinking the same thing, and I'm not sure if that 40% is evenly distributed based on class ranking/law school ranking. There may be some correlation, but I think a fair share are people who went to good law schools and had good jobs but wanted out. For example, many people go to top law schools like Harvard, Yale, etc. to teach or for other academic reasons. Many Top 14 grads also have significantly greater opportunities in the business world and may go to work at Fortune 500s, hedge funds, etc. So, I think it may be pretty even.

Choosing schools is a calculated gamble. I wanted to go back to the midwest. I was all set to go to Michigan [over the free ride I had to Wash U in St. Louis]. Then I came off of Harvard's wait list. What to do?

Law school is an investment. I went to Harvard. I hated it. But I wasn't there to have fun -- that degree is still worth more than the Michigan degree would have been.

I clerk a large east coast city. My judge had a ten day civil trial involving a mega firm. All the 2nd year associate did was hit the space bar on the laptop hundreds of times on the direction of the partner to display the exhibits on the projector. At least he should be thankful he got in the courtroom.

I have friends who work for the city making 1/3 of the money but are actually in court arguing motions right out of the gate. They are getting far more valuable experience. A monkey could do most 1st and 2nd year associate work.

The only reason to take a big law job would be to pay of your debts quickly. Or should could be a moron like my ex and take home $9,000 a month and pay $4,000 a month in rent on a swanky NYC apartment.

Emily Pataki is a nice gal and she's satisfactorily competent. "[B]rilliant," I would not describe her.

The best post in this thread is the transformers post.

I concede that I have been bested.

"There is no diff between job prospects of a cornell/nw graduate as opposed to a ucla/tx/vandy grad."

UCLA is nowhere near the same league as Cornell (or as Jules from Pulp Fiction would say, "it's not even the same f*ckin' sport"). Your overall point is well-taken but you embarass yourself when making statements such as this.

It's simply not true that there is no middle ground as far as starting salaries. In addition to small & mid-size firms, there are tons of jobs in government. Club Fed starts most attorneys at about 55K now, but with just about automatic career ladder promotions you'd be at about 80K in 2 years with a decent chance at 95 in 3 years, plus whatever yearly raises are made to the overall payscale. While not comparable to biglaw bonuses, there are also awards that may add another 1% or so. As others have noted, government jobs can be a springboard to better paying jobs for those who do well and are motivated in that direction.

NJ market has a lot of midsize firms (50-100 attys) that start associates anywhere from 80-110k a year with the added benefit of being lifestyle firms. Is this an exception to the rest of the country, or are people not looking outside OCI?

6:12, I pray you never reproduce.

Douchebags. All of you. Huge douchebags.

All law schools are factories. They're professional schools. Get over yourself if you think that your school is not a factory. I'm at a top 10 school, my girlfriend is at one of the ones the guy above mentioned as being a factory. Both are factories. One just turns out a more desirable product because of the elitist scumbags who run the legal world.

If you think you're special and not a product just because you went to a top law school, you're even more delusional than the 3rd tier folks expecting to get BigLaw jobs with ease. Your branding stamp just says "Made in Germany" instead of "Made in China." And like anyone knows, stuff that's made in Germany is subject to defects and falls apart too. It may be at a much lesser rate than the stuff they churn out in China, but it's not perfect. My sense is that the asshat windbag ranting about law school factories above is one of those "Made in Germany" guys with a defect. Or at the very least, he's conceit is clouding his judgment.

"Alpha children wear grey They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfuly glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"

I don't have time to read all these comments, so excuse me if I'm off whatever the recent topic is or if I'm repeating comment number 99, etc.

As context for my views: I went to a tier 2 (at least when I was there, I don't keep track anymore) school. Because I was aware of the risk, I made sure I was at the top of the class, law review, all that. That earned me interviews at the local biglaw shops, and I landed at a Vault 20 firm (which I have since departed). I'd say about 15-20% class did the same.

In my opinion, the important point here is not the opportunities available to tier 2-4 law grads, but the increasingly out of proportion cost of law school. You'd be an idiot not to pay whatever Harvard wants you to pay. Harvard grads have the legal world at their fingertips. You are paying for access, be it at biglaw or wherever your interests take you. The problem is, there are schools in the lower tiers that cost as much or more than some of the ivy schools. My tier 2 school was no bargain, though I got some scholarship money. Now I guess you can say that the students of these schools have only themselves to blame because the information is out there. But I think its fair to criticize this system. Certainly, the schools do their best to market the success stories and they prey on the naive. The vast majority of their graduates are not going to get their money's worth. It shouldn't take you 10 to 20 years to get out of the hole they dig for you.

Fordham, Median, Secondary Journal, Vault 20 NYC

There are barely any temp jobs left - like those document reviews. They export the work to India now I have heard.

10:15: brilliant. [as is Brave New World generally].

I’m not a very smart person and I slacked off in college big time. With no options for a real job after college, I went to the only law school that would take me (Brooklyn). This was at the height of the dot com boom, so all the smart people were at jobs with start ups-- these days, I would not have gotten in to Brooklyn). I worked my ass off first year- for the first time in my life, I actually studied, hard, and showed up to my morning classes without a hangover. Made the top 10% and a journal (but not law review and moot court dissed me). Got a summer spot at a pretty good NYC firm that paid market (a whopping 125K at the time), managed not to do anything stupid (by shear luck), and got an offer. 2nd and 3rd year, I took it easy but kept my grades up. I left the firm after 3 years (after three years, the firm stopped paying market) with a manageable debt and a new apartment. If I told you what I do now, you would laugh. Was I lucky? Maybe. But I think its more all the work I put in first year. Let that be a lesson to any aspiring law students: WORK HARD FIRST YEAR.

>>"the managing partners of both Weil and Cadwalader went to tier 2 schools"

And even *they* don't recruit non top-10% tier 2s!<<

If you can't finish top 10% at Pitt law you should just put the glock in your mouth and pull the trigger. CWT is dipping into tier 4; they have no use for Yale.

Why is this news? Didn't anyone look at avg. employment and avg salary upon graduation from these $60K/yr schools BEFORE paying them?

Why is this a big deal now? Maybe if people and spent a little time and looked at the prospects of the future before committing tons of money to a Tier 2 or Tier 3 school there wouldn't be this complaint.

Law school and biglaw are not for everyone. Why are people assuming that it is a travesty that Tier 2 or Tier 3 schools are not succeeding?

Do we complain about the jobs Community College students get post-college???

graduated below the median at cls and as a result couldn't find work in the V10 and had to settle for V25. =(

"UCLA is nowhere near the same league as Cornell (or as Jules from Pulp Fiction would say, "it's not even the same f*ckin' sport"). Your overall point is well-taken but you embarass yourself when making statements such as this. "

Please, Cornell lets in everyone with a pulse. For being T14, and an ivy league school, it's embarassing how easy it is to get in. It's GPA/LSAT are on par with UCLA's. Cornell will have the edge in nyc biglaw, but wont hold a tune to ucla when it comes to west coast biglaw.

I interview for a West Coast Biglaw firm and this is false. Cornell's grade cut-off is significantly lower than UCLA's. We only recruit from top 20% at UCLA, Cornell is top 33%.

L2L,

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/median.php

And FYI, yes, many of us are practicing securities lawyers who spend our boring days crafting risk disclosure. However, I just looked at the Loyola website and it appears that that they fully and fairly disclose their employment statistics.

http://www.lls.edu/career/stats.html

If you read this, you'll realize that not everyone gets a job and some of the people working there get jobs in the private sector making $40,000.

In short you unjustifiably relied (think the 1st circuit's Kennedy opinion).

Does anyone actually go to Cornell?

In the DC biglaw culture and DC clerkship scene (including SCOTUS), Cornell's not even on the radar screen.

Maybe the jump from Ithaca to NYC is more popular.

Law students are such douchebags. They all clamour for a spot at these huge law firms, usually without a clue of what type of law they want to do or what their lives will mean. They are in it for the paycheck, and that is the saddest explanation of human existence I have ever seen.

That said, I will be in biglaw 08!

i graduated top 25% from my tier 1 law school and couldn't get a single NYC Biglaw firm to take me!

Our generation sucks at life. People posting here talk as if their $200k investment into a legal education entitles them to some six-figure salary. Since when is a return on an investment guaranteed? Did you really think that once you got your diploma you'd be set for life? I though we all learned that wasn't true after realizing how worthless our B.A.s were. If you really want to make money, take a risk and start your own practice. Instead, you sit and wait to suck the tit of BIGLAW. Chumps

The last 3 biglaw lawyers I have talked to were all attempting to leave biglaw.

9:56, you embarass yourself by quoting Pulp Fiction. What's your next, Holy Grail?

I knew a Cornell grad at my DC biglaw shop, and I was not particularly impressed. I think it's true that there aren't many in DC. I think there were more Stanford people than Cornell.

This article is absolute crap---I graduated from a tier 2/3 school, and got into biglaw. My fellow classmates who didn't do as well were making on average better than $55, most better than $60. I am fairly confident that I am working a lot longer hours than they are too---these articles always neglect the lifestyle factor. With the bucks come the hours. And the bucks outside of biglaw are still a lot better than most other professional careers, even for starting attorneys.

NO other profession has to resort to such pedantic prestige-whoring for the source of self-worth and image.

LSAT-T14-GPA-V5 Jesus law is the most pathetic combination of conservation and elitism I have ever encountered.

"making on average better than $55, most better than $60"

I think the article proves the point.

TTTers,

You all know law schools are ranked, right? All you had to do is look on the US News list and pick the highest one you got into. The LSAT is the roulette wheel that told you if your number comes up. Think of it as a Briggs-Meyers for law.

If you go to a top school, you generally get a top job. If you go with the TTT, you generally don't. Don't make it worse for yourselves by whining about your plight and wallowing.

HTH

"The last 3 biglaw lawyers I have talked to were all attempting to leave biglaw. "

These are people who see the writing on the wall and are trying to land on their feet. Biglaw is ultra competitive.

Yeah, Cornell doesnt have many grads in DC for two big reasons:

1) It is incredibly small (180?) and therefore has a small presence everywhere. On a side note, this is relevant to the poster above who said there are more people at Cravath from Fordham than Cornell. Yeah, of course there are b/c Fordham is three times the size and none of their grads leave NYC.

2) I dont think many people want to go to DC. If you had DC in mind before law school, you probably would have gone to GULC.

Anyone ever listen to the Pearl Jam song "Soon Forget"?

First! FUCK YEAH.

Get back to work!!!!!!!!!!

Loyola 2L to 35K!

some of these posts display precisely the reason people hate attorneys. Stop thinking you are so much better than everyone else just because you went to a better school, and especially if your inflated sense of self-worth comes from the fact that you ended up at a V10 firm as opposed to V50, or V80 (they are all practically the same). You go outside the legal field and no one will know the name of a V10 from the name of their local 2 person PI shop. The only people that'll be impressed by your firm name are other attorneys, big freaking whoop. You can start being pretentious when you actually start winning cases for your clients, and actually contributing something worthwhile to society.

To those at V10, I don't mean to belittle your accomplishments, but realize that in the beginning of your career you are nothing more than a cog in a machine...a very replaceable cog - get off your high horse.

PS: This isn't a bitter rant, I too am a cog, I just hate the uncalled-for eliticism of my co-cogs. The post about the teachers made me angry. In addition to a few people that become teachers because they fail at life, there are a majority who do so because they feel that they can contribute better to society by making subjects like calculus and chemistry actually enjoyable to students. If we had more of those, perhaps lawyers wouldn't be known for their inability to do math.

I date a teacher. Her life is much more rewarding, interesting, and entertaining than my life is by far. I may make three times (NYC to 190!) than she does, but when we go to parties everyone wants to hear stories about her job, not mine.

Law firm prestige is stupid. A fifteen year attorney at a two man shop in a mid-sized city is likely 100 times the attorney at 3rd year associate at Cravath is, yet the 3rd year at Cravath is viewed as part of the "legal elite."

We all make less money than bankers. If you want to make money without taking any risk, then you should become a banker.

Law firm prestige is stupid. A fifteen year attorney at a two man shop in a mid-sized city is likely 100 times the attorney at 3rd year associate at Cravath is, yet the 3rd year at Cravath is viewed as part of the "legal elite."

We all make less money than bankers. If you want to make money without taking any risk, then you should become a banker.

11:29- Bravo... best posting i read in a while

CHEER UP!

A girl I know who graduated from Fordham Law '06 is now a 1st year associate at Sullivan & Cromwell in NY(probably making $145K per year, plus a $40K bonus).

And there's another girl who graduated from Albany Law School '06 and currently is working at Jones Day, NYC Office, probably pulling in $125K per year, and maybe a $20K bonus.

Yay for Albany Law School!

The only voices of reason here are the non-elitists and the non-whiners. The rest of you are all failures as human beings.

Sorry, Susan, JD doesn't pay bonuses. Nice try to cheer the folks here up. And there's no question that the isolated case may result in $$$; it's just that it's only the ISOLATED case, which is the problem of these TTTs.

Huzzah for 11:55!

the unwashed just say yippee or hooray

Thanks Susan that makes me feel better! *rolls eyes*

Sorry, just watched a history channel show about the American Revolution.

11:18 - You can't possibly work in Biglaw. Some firms are competitive, but nobody is being forced out of a firm in this recruiting climate. You have to be an incredible screw up to have a firm even consider forcing you out.

I get calls from recruiters every single day asking me to go to another Biglaw firm. The Biglaw lateral market is so tight, that if I got forced out, I could get another job in about two weeks.

The reason those people were looking to get out is because it sucks working in Biglaw.

1. You have to bill constantly. You have to keep track of everything you do in six-minute increments. You could get away with billing at a 2000 pace before. Now, there is even more push back from partners about workloads. It's only a matter of time before the official minimum jumps to 2100.

2. Clients are paying ridiculous amounts of money for your time, so they expect instant responses. Partners are bitter about your wages, so they feel fully justified in making outrageous demands on your time. (Who knew it could get worse?) This means your free time is never really your own. I've yet to take a vacation where I didn't bill at least a few hours and didn't have to respond to e-mail.

3. As you rise in the ranks, there is increased pressure to do non-billable writing and speaking and client/business development stuff. They want to see who is willing to really gun for partnership. Who wants that? Those people are even more pathetic than associates. Is having a big house, a couple of German cars and a stay at home spouse worth killing yourself for 20+ years?

For smart people, Biglaw is the easiest way to pay off law school debt, which allows you to do what you want after five years. That is why 80% of the people go to Biglaw. I don't know anyone in my class who of associates who wants to be partner in a Biglaw firm. Most are looking to go in-house, to a boutique and make partner, or get out of law completely.

Albany Law School to tier 2!

What's the record for number of posts on a single ATL thread?

I went to a lower tier two school in my state (it's the only law school in my state, so I pretty much had to go there to practice where I wanted). I graduated top 20%, law review, moot court, etc. I had absolutely no trouble finding a job with a minimum 1200 billables (not a typo) for $70K / year with a teired bonus schedule such that if I put in a 2000 hour year, I will make what the biglaw folks in my state make.

The assumption that "biglaw" is the only place to make money is false, in my opinion. There are a lot of smaller firms that will pay biglaw money for biglaw production. I was fortunate to find a firm that lets me earn a midlaw salary if do not much work and a biglaw salary if I do a lot of work. I bet a lot of smaller firms out there would strike these kinds of deals.

Another problem, and not to put too fine a point on it, but there are a lot of stupid people who can get into law school these days. I would only hire 10% of my class to be my lawyer. The other 90% are either too stupid, too lacking in common sense and judgment, or both. I am not surprised that many of these people, particularly the ones with poor grades, cannot find jobs. They don't need to be lawyers anyway.

"11:18 - You can't possibly work in Biglaw. Some firms are competitive, but nobody is being forced out of a firm in this recruiting climate."

90% of assocites eventually get pushed out. The biglaw curve is brutal, and only the best of the best survive.

Biglaw, by virtue of their enormous salaries, has no problem finding qualified people.

Why doesn't Lat create a new post to foster more discussion on things like (a) the salary tables posted, and (b) the ABA's accreditation changes. I think posting has slowed because it's too cumbersome to use this topic anymore, but I'm sure more would post on a new item.

12:42, You said you were top 20%, which means you didnt make the top 10% cut off at your school. If you would only hire 10% of your class to be your lawyer, does that mean you wouldnt hire yourself?

LOL. I don't know where you work, but nobody gets pushed out in my firm. People leave for better opportunities. You don't even start getting pressure to move until you're a sixth or seventh year, and by that point 75% of the associates have already left.

12:48 - "Biglaw, by virtue of their enormous salaries, has no problem finding qualified people."

You've given yourself away as a clueless law student. Biglaw is only interested in other Biglaw associates. There is no pay difference, which is why I haven't moved. Why should I go from being a cog in one firm to a cog in another firm to make the same money? If they offered me a pile of money to move, I'd do it in a second.

My firm has trouble recruiting for just this reason. Salaries are lock step, so the only way we can recruit is to play up how friendly we are compared to other firms. We get a lot of Skadden castaways. We have a reputation as a sweatshop, but it's better than them.

"nobody gets pushed out in my firm."

No one says they got pushed out. When someone goes from a firm like Latham to a midsize firm, it wasn't "going to a better opportunity" but "going to a smaller pond." If they can't survive there they get pushed down even further.

Don't kid yourselves Skadden (or other top firm) folks, you are replaceable, and there are thousands of qualified candidates jumping at the opportunity to take your job.

1:00 - You're definitely a partner or senior associate gunning for partner.

Firms hate replacing associates. It takes so much time and money to bring someone new in that you've got to be a complete loser and show no hope for improvement to actually get pushed out.

These salary discussions seem to only focus on the first few years out. After 10 years or so though, most lawyers have a shot at making bank. For example, what happens to the BIGLAW associates who don't make partner? They must go somewhere, maybe to smaller firms. The salary focus on the first seven years, while relevant b/c it directly affects our lives, it not that crucial when you are talking about a 30+ year career. By the way, many of you all are forgetting about not only the smaller firms that bill hourly and still pay good, but the small firms that get ENORMOUS contingent fees in PI cases.

1:00 - You're definitely a partner or senior associate gunning for partner.

Firms hate replacing associates. It takes so much time and money to bring someone new in that you've got to be a complete loser and show no hope for improvement to actually get pushed out.

"Firms hate replacing associates."

Absolutely they hate it, but trees need to be pruned or they won't optimally grow.

12:53 - I obviously wouldn't hire you, because you cannot read. I said I would hire only 10% of my class, not the TOP 10% of my class. Plenty of people with good grades are incompetent boobs.

1:20, I've heard this from other partners too. Describe a top 10%er who you didn't want to hire. *whispers: does undesirable top 10%er basically mean asian?*

i make the big money at an NYC firm. associates in big firms typically have no entrepreneurial skills to speak of - they are not go getters when it comes to getting clients, nor do most of them ever want to 'stand up' in court or do the things that real attorneys do. meanwhile lawyers out that making less money at smaller firms and elsewhere have to do real lawyer things, in doing so they have more fun and they become better lawyers, not disposable associates. the sweet irony.

1:21, do Asian associates in the top 10% face a bias when it comes to hiring practices by large firms?

It would not surprise me, but I did not know that it happened often that Asians in top 10% had more trouble finding jobs than persons of other races.

Has that been the case?

No, I am not Asian.

I am at a school ranked 15-20 and lots of people below the median don't have firm jobs. Others have had to travel to podunk cities to secure summer associate positions. If the market is tough for those at top schools with poor grades, imagine what it must be like for those at lower or third tier schools with mediocre or poor grades. If you want to do Biglaw and can't get into a top 20 school, don't go to law school!!! NO ONE can guarantee they'll be top of the class so don't go to XYZ lawschool ranked 61st and be upset that no one is throwing $160,000 grand at you. If you had clients paying you millions upon millions in legal fees and expecting the highest quality of work from your firm, you'd only hire from top schools or the top few students from non-elite schools. It only makes sense.

12:42/1:20/top 20%: If they are incompetent boobs, why did they beat you on the tests? Yes, I'm aware law school exams arent the greatest indicators of success/competence, but dont trash your school and refer to 90% of them as being unfit to represent you when you couldnt beat some of these people on test day. Hiring me is irrelevant as a suspect you could not come close to affording my work.

1:36, I don't know, but it's interesting to compare the number of asians in the top ranks vs. the number of asians in biglaw.

I am a third-year associate at a large, "top-10" NYC firm, and we have roughly 40 summer associates this year. I believe that all except 6 or 7 are from law schools that are roughly top 15-20 in US News. The 6 or 7 not in the top-ranked schools are from Fordham, Cardozo and Brooklyn (and one other that I cannot recall). They are by far the most competent, intelligent and enjoyable of the bunch. I can't say much about the "t2" schools outside of NY, but it is clear to me (not just from this summer) that these schools, particularly Brooklyn and Cardozo, are incredibly underutilized by biglaw in NYC.

10:15(2) + 11:29 = I have nothing to add.

Who said lawyers can't do math?

Actually, add 8:22 (today) to that, too.

Where is Billy Merck on this topic any way? He seems qualified to comment.

1:43, I am going to have to do some follow up research on this. I had no idea such an issue existed.

Are there any Asian law students out there who would like to comment on this?

All of you guys need to shut the fuck up. I went to a Tier 3 school (lucky to get in there) and make 40K in government. You wanna know who's to blame for this? ME, noone else. I knew what I was getting into. I saw the brochures and literature and read between the lines. That said, I'm happy with my choices and position. I get to truly practice law, I live a life outside the law. My job does not define me as a human being, it's merely what I do 9-5. You that would choose to sell your souls and existence for the $ are pathetic.

Government to $45K!

I went to a 50ish law school with 100% tuition scholarship. I graduated with a 4.0, enjoyed a great COA clerkship, and work at a top firm in biglaw. However, if I were to do it again, I would have paid full tuition and gone to a T14 school. According to my profs., judge, and partners I was smart enough to well anywhere. Because of my school, I was locked out of "feeder" judges and the best law firms (W&C, WLRK, MTO, certain DC appealate botiques) and will never get the respect that some of my peers do.

This is whole discussion is giving me a Princeton Review flashback.

[timestamp]

Listen, you just need to [pejorative verb "stop"]. I went to [rancid law school] and got [job title] with [five figures/six figures] of debt paying [60% of market rate], and I know [most/many/some/a few] [friends/classmates] got [similar/comparable/decent] jobs as well. So you don't have to go to [HYS/T6/Texas or Chicago/T14/T1] to get a job paying [$160K/$195K].

2:04, This issue really needs its own thread. Lat can probably offer insight being asian, even though he doesn't seem like the type to complain about something like this.

1:50 -- I don't think so. You're seeing the best that Cardozo has to offer versus a bunch of careless schmucks from Penn and UVA who expect an offer and don't plan on working for it. Its a shame to say but if you dug deeper into what the local schools have to offer you would not find people with the savvy and skills to excel in your environment. Which is not about raw smarts, but getting by in an elitist environment.

Listen, you just need to quit it. I went to Penn and got an SA position with six figures of debt paying $125,000, and I know some classmates got decent jobs as well. So you don't have to go to HYS to get a job paying well.

2:27 - That may be true. The kids from Brooklyn/Cardozo/Fordham, I think, are all on law review or in to 25%. But I also know that the majority of the top-20 school kids are also involved in law review and/or top 50% at their respective schools. From what I've seen this summer, I would take a top 25% or even top 50% Brooklyn/Cardozo/Fordham student over a top 10% student from Columbia or NYU.

8:30 & 8:42--

UGA is better than Emory for students looking to stay South (I don't care what USNews says). Further, Georgia students stay in the South and supply the state and region with lawyers and politicians it needs. If you are from Georgia, and can get into UGA you are crazy to pay $40k/year to go to Emory. Given that, if one law school in Georgia is going to close (as you suggest) it should be Emory.

Just to add to the discussion... I was a paralegal for two years prior to going to law school at a vault top 5 NYC law firm, and the new associates from second tier law schools were so much better at their jobs than the graduates from the top 10. Harder works, more work experience, more confident, etc... You don't need a 175 on your LSATs to do what a young associate does.
So I think most firms would do better to hire more of them. And I think it defeats the logic that tier one graduates get the jobs because they are more qualified.
The problem is that we have all entered a profession that is obsessed with prestige, money and rankings. So it may be time to just accept it.

ok since u guys are being so fucking retarded:

I went to columbia and I took a class with Emily Pataki. Not stupid Cornell and not wannabe penn. In other words, I own you. She is a very smart girl, and the bar IS simply memorization. Like i said before, the haters are the people in the lower law schools who suck at life anyway. They should be shot, then fired, then shot again. In that order.

GO INTO A NEW CAREER, WE DONT WANT YOU.

I graduated Tier 4, 3rd in my class, did not do moot court, did law review just for the heck of it in my third year (after I had gotten and accepted my job offer)... and got a Biglaw position. I summered with the Biglaw firm, and got an offer at the end of the summer. I did not know anyone in the legal community at all, let alone someone at the firm that hired me, so it's not just about who you know.

All that aside, I admit to being the exception, not the rule. It was not the top-of-the-classers that had the easiest time with jobs--it was the group of students that were sort of in the middle of the pack. They got jobs quickly, and most of the folks at the top of the class didn't get jobs until the school year was winding to a close. And there are a lot of my classmates who remain unemployed (in a law-related field, anyway) or who have already changed jobs several times, still searching for something that will compensate them enough to pay their student loan bills and that will also allow for a personal life.

Which is another difference, I suppose... I never assumed that I'd have a personal life for several years after graduation. Helps balance the expectations.

Thank god I retook the LSAT and got into a T14. Its nice knowing that NYC BIGLAW is there as long as I put in a semi-decent amount of work.

2:27 - See 3:01 post for proof...What can I say?
[referencing 2:43 post]

I'm a Brooklyn alum who did very well my first year and got a summer associate gig. I'm in my third year now at a large law firm in NYC. While I'm flattered by the sentiment, I don't understand the logic that I'm somehow going to be a super-associate by virtue of having attended a law school ranked lower than those most of my colleagues attended. The people at the top of the class at BLS were not free of a sense of entitlement and did not necessarily feel grateful for having a shot at BIGLAW. And why should they have, really? Also, many of them were competitive ninnies right out of undergrad.

As a junior associate, I've found that my colleagues who attended lower-ranked law schools are no less likely to be bored as shit, prone to slackerdom, or be complete assholes to junior associates and staff. God knows I have the first two qualities.

3:09 - see 2:34 re: 6:18 concerning 4:41 [which mentions 8:36] because it refutes 5:33's assertion that 2:52 said what 1:10 accused 5:17 of implying.

3:13 Said: "As a junior associate, I've found that my colleagues who attended lower-ranked law schools are no less likely to be bored as shit, prone to slackerdom, or be complete assholes to junior associates and staff. God knows I have the first two qualities."

Laugh-out-loudably... SO true. (I declare as I slack off. Hey, I worked 'til 3 last night.)

The only thing you can reliably tell about someone based on the law school they attended...

...is the law school they attended.

Though I remain amused at the certainty and vehemence with which people will debate that. "C'est law vie."

rofl @ 3:14, well done. Also, your timestamp is pi!

Chances at BIGLAW by School

T6 - 90-100%
T14- 66-80%
T18 - 50%
BC/Fordham/GW/BU - 35%
Everyone else - 5-25% = Probably not worth paying full tuition

Bottom line:

too many law schools
too many lawyers
too many students in too much debt

I'm YHS and always strongly counsel friends who ask me about going to law school against it unless they can get into a T-20 at a very minimum. Otherwise, I really don't think the chance of a "biglaw" job is worth all the debt.

The bottom line is that people like "1st tier ivy" (make sure you emphasize FIRST tier, there) must justify the sacrifices they've made in order to swim the shark-infested waters of top schools and big firms. It just HAS to be worth it. It just HAS to.

Status + money = happiness. Repeat until believed, defend unto death.

Cornell grad here. We are a lot smaller than a number of other T-14 law schools (~170 per class), which might explain our relatively limited presence at Cravath and in DC (and for some reason not many people wanted to go to DC). From my research and personal knowledge, most west coast firms will dig deeper into Cornell's class than UCLA's. Another benefit for me was that Cornell is so small that you can't really get lost in the recruiting shuffle: All the Big Law firms hire there, and interviews are assigned by lottery. Counselors can help you choose what firms to bid on (and encourage you to do some reach, some middle, and some safety picks). The result? Even though it was a competitive market and even though at the end of first year I was only around the median cutoff, I had offers from top V10 Big Law firms and other "prestigious/coveted" firms in NYC, DC, LA, and SF. I also landed a clerkship (I note here that the clerkship frenzy is pretty limited there -- the school/professors don't really develop feeding connections with judges and a lot of really strong applicants don't apply at all for some reason).

Also, for what it is worth, I'm genuinely glad to have spent three years at Cornell and in Ithaca. I think I received a great legal education, had the chance to do journal and moot court stuff, really enjoyed my classmates, and genuinely cherished my time in Ithaca (an entirely delightful little town, despite the cold). I know that there will be some that bash our T-14 status, or some Cornell grads who will complain of the cold or the distance from their beloved NYC, but most of us consider ourselves lucky to have spent time high above Cayuga's waters and are proud to call ourselves Big Red.

a pox on all of your houses, not to mention the houses of all law school admissions offices, first-tier and otherwise.

Out of the top 20 law schools, all schools are regional. Job applicants need to be aware of this. While some schools outside of the top 20 may do well in one or two regions outside of their area, on the whole, they are regional schools. If you go to University of Georgia, you will probably do well in the south. Likewise if you go to Vermont law school you will probably do well in New England (outside of Boston) (As an aside, I also hear Vermont does very well in DC). However, if you choose a lower ranked school that has lots of competition within its region (Think Boston here - Harvard, BC, BU, Northeastern, Suffolk, NE) - good luck, you will have no chance if you are not in the top 10%. In Boston, BC and BU grads do very well, Northeastern - ok. Suffolk and NE Law - good luck!

Too many people think they can go to a third tier school in Virginia and get a job in Boston, LA, or Chicago - not going to happen if you are not in the top of your class.

There are always outliers though. I graduated from a tier 3 school, top 30%, law review, and I will be making 160k outside my region. However, I had to absolutely bust my ass to get this job (met with ~50 alumni to work connections).

I do not blame non-elite schools for this. I new what I was getting into and that is why I busted my ass. The information is out there on the job placement for these schools. The people enrolling in law school are adults and they should do their research before investing over 100k. With that said, it is a travesty how much law schools are charging today. Hopefully more people will do there research and realize that for most people it is just not worth it to go to law school. This would result in a decrease in tuition, or some of these schools shutting down. That would mean less junk lawsuits, and would be better for society as a whole.

I have no idea why the ABA doesn’t regulate its admissions to law school like the AMA does for med. School.

how would people at the top of the class at tier 2/3 schools likely do at top ten schools?

Amen 3:25.

Also as to tier 1 ivy vs. tier 2. Generally speaking, tier 1 ivy is smarter, at least in a academic way (vs. a streets smarts way). But there is baggage with that. Tier 1 ivy also tends to be lacking in social skills due in large part to being a nerd since childhood. Generally speaking, tier 2 tends to have better social skills and/or is more charismatic or likable. Tier 1 ivy will have a tendency to come across as an arrogant loner. Whereas Tier 2 tends to be somebody worth going out to have a drink with.

So in terms of who makes a better overall lawyer in the sense of helping the firm succeed in court and with clients (i.e., who is the best partner material). Probably the person that breaks against the grain (i.e., tier 1 ivy who is actually somewhat cool and tier 2 who is an intellectual equal of tier 1 ivy). But a mixture of both types is probably useful to most firms.

4:01, who knows. Maybe as a result of knowing they don't need to work hard for a good job, they woud slack off.

In response to Reality Jones | July 11, 2007 03:22 PM

"Chances at BIGLAW by School

T6 - 90-100%
T14- 66-80%
T18 - 50%
BC/Fordham/GW/BU - 35%
Everyone else - 5-25% = Probably not worth paying full tuition"

Below is the actual factual situation broken down by school for the first 20 or so schools in the category of "who big firms hire." It's from a National Law Journal Article called "The go-to schools: Where big firms set their sights when they hire."

Obviously other things factor in, such as who actually wants a big law job after graduation. This may explain why Yale is so low. Yale may also be low because some big firms know the reputation of Yale grads as wanting to be on the bench or in academia, so it could be selection from both sides - the law students and the firms. But in any event, it sheds light on the assumed statistics Reality Jones posted. For example, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are all lower than assumed in actual numbers. Schools like Duke, BC, and Fordham seem to be higher than their US News rankings should dictate.

Like I said, with the very top schools, there is some degree of self-elimination from the job market, but there is also that at any top tier school, because not everyone wants to go to BigLaw (you can tell these people - they're the ones who know more than the rest of us who are slaving away at BigLaw).

Here are the numbers for 2006. It's arranged: Name of school - Percentage of grads at BigLaw - Number of total grads for 2006 - Number of grads hired by BigLaw.

Columbia Law 69.6% 450 313
U Pennsylvania 68.2% 274 187
University of Chicago 65.1% 192 125
Harvard Law School 59.2% 571 338
Duke Law School 56.8% 220 125
New York University 56.6% 465 263
Cornell University 56.0% 193 108
Stanford Law School 54.9% 175 96
University of Michigan 54.3% 431 234
University of Virginia 54.1% 375 203
Northwestern Law 54.0% 265 143
Georgetown Law 53.0% 626 332
Berkeley 49.0% 300 147
Vanderbilt University 48.0% 202 97
Yale Law School 46.8% 203 95
Boston College 39.1% 284 111
George Washington 38.8% 482 187
Fordham University 38.8% 477 185
University of Texas 38.6% 502 194
USC 36.3% 215 78

It seems like if you're at one of the schools on the list, you're somewhere between a foot in the door and a more-than-sporting chance. My guess is after the schools on this list and a few notable absentees (BU, UCLA, etc.) you're probably hard pressed to get a BigLaw Job.

I take issue with the guy who was saying the Big Ten law schools shouldn't be accredited. Most all of them are top 35, and all of them are state schools. I graduated middle of the class with no law review and no connections from one of them, and had plenty of options on graduation (big law and federal clerkship offers) - and the options were nationally dispersed (I won't be in the Midwest).

I'm not claiming the Big Ten schools bring the same options as the top 14 or so, but they are all damn good schools. Many of the students there stayed there knowing their options after graduation would be similar (though limited in things such as clerking for the Supreme Court or something incredibly prestigious like that) to T14 people if they graduated in the top 1/2, and the debt is significantly less (I'm graduating with $50k).

I take issue with the guy who was saying the Big Ten law schools shouldn't be accredited. Most all of them are top 35, and all of them are state schools. I graduated middle of the class with no law review and no connections from one of them, and had plenty of options on graduation (big law and federal clerkship offers) - and the options were nationally dispersed (I won't be in the Midwest).

I'm not claiming the Big Ten schools bring the same options as the top 14 or so, but they are all damn good schools. Many of the students @ Big Ten schools stayed there knowing their options after graduation would be similar (though limited in things such as clerking for the Supreme Court or something incredibly prestigious like that) to T14 people if they graduated in the top 1/2, and the debt is significantly less (I'm graduating with $50k).

4:40, did you really have multiple federal clerkship offers? I thought it was frowned upon to interview for a clerkship if you weren't really going to accept an offer. But based on your description, you turned down federal judges after they gave you an offer? Really?

But in the end, being a lawyer is much better than being a doctor!

My friend, 28-years-old, a neurologist (Polish by the way and not Asian), graduated from NYU Medical School in 2004 and he is currently a 3rd year resident at a Jewish Medical Hospital in NYC making only $55K, and he's always on call.

4:06: So, getting a higher LSAT score somehow transforms you into an intellectual? Nobody can seriously contend that getting into law school is anything more than a numbers game. You are not getting into a top school with a mediocre LSAT score and great grades. Admission is far more likely if you have a great LSAT score and mediocre grades.

I went to a Tier 2 school with several graduates of Penn, Cornell, Brown, etc. The thought of them as "street smart" is laughable.

4:34,
"chances at biglaw" means chances at biglaw for people WHO WANT biglaw.
For that reason, your statistics are incorrect.

by incorrect I mean they don't represent what they're supposed to represent (the likelihood of getting biglaw, if you want it.)

"I take issue with the guy who was saying the Big Ten law schools shouldn't be accredited."

Agree. Plus, these schools offer real value for those of us who (gasp!) aren't Big Law dreamers: a chance to graduate from law school with a solid education + a low level of debt = a chance to practice low-paying or public interest work. Not to mention that I think there is inherent value to making the law (including a legal education and the academic and other events that come with having a law school) accessible and visible in more communities, not just the urban-Big-Law centers.

400th post!

4:43 - I should say I had multiple clerkship interviews. I took the first clerkship offer I got. You're absolutely right, it's taboo to turn down judges offers (which is why I didn't). Big Law can wait. I had done OCI and summered at a Big Law, and had multiple offers from Big Law people. I misstated there, sorry.

My point simply was that the Big Ten schools are pretty solid schools, and shouldn't be denigrated...the fact that they are shows just how incredibly elitist the law has become.

Re: 4:48 & 4:50

True and I think I admitted as much if you read my post.

Also, they're not "my" statistic. They're from a study done by the National Law Journal.

There is simply now way to control for or measure who wants vs. who gets BigLaw jobs. With exception of maybe Yale and Harvard, I think across top schools you have to assume relatively the same number of people want BigLaw jobs. My guess is it's probably around the numbers you see at Penn and Columbia - rougly 65-70%. If you assume that, then you can safely say that at Penn, Columbia, et al. you're sure of getting a BigLaw job. I.e. 100% of people who want, get. And I think most would agree with that. Compare that to Fordham, BC, GW, et al. and you're looking at about 60% of the people who want big law jobs getting them. And then there's the subjective nature of "want." Some middle-of-the-road students at the lower ranked schools on the list I posted probably don't work so hard (apply, interview, search, etc.) for a BigLaw job once they realize they're not in the top third or on a journal.

Also this is all right out of law school. That's not to say there aren't Yale, Harvard, etc. people and then Fordham, GW, BC, etc. people going into clerkships or other non-BigLaw areas without an offer tied down who later decide to get an offer.

I go to a school toward the bottom of the list (if that makes sense?) am an average (law) student with no journal or moot court to my name and I pretty much walked into a BigLaw job with no resistance. So, anecdotally at least, the numbers are probably not generous enough when it comes to "ease."

4:45,

I thought I put enough "generally speaking" and "tends to" in there to avoid such a response, but I guess not. No, getting a high LSAT score does not "transform" one into an intellect (and I don't think my post even implies that). But at most "tier 1 ivy" schools, the students have a combination of both high LSAT scores and a stellar academic record. At least that's my understanding. I worked for a couple years at one of the top DC shops that had lots of tier 1 ivy. I based my generalizations on that experience. But I also have to say those generalizations are certainly not true across the board.

It sounds like Loyola 2L has a bipolar disorder - inquisitive one post, really pissed off the next post. Also, if he got his grades, he can now write Loyola 3L.

Jealosy is a fact of life. Even those with biglaw firm jobs in NY are jealos of the biglaw people in cities with lower costs (Chicago, Charlotte, Atlanta). Don't compare yourself to anyone - it'll just drive you insane.

I got my job by sending out hundreds of cold call letters (and using spellcheck), and working like crazy in law school. It was well worth the effort, I think...

It's spelled jealousy, and can you please not go around accusing others of possessing your mental illnesses?

lol @ your "(and using spellcheck)" line.

I'm a jackass who slacked off in college and didn't do so well on my LSATs. There are thousands of other jackasses just like me out there looking for jobs. Why won't the most elite firms hire me over people who did well in college and aced the LSATs? Its so unfair!!!

lol, 5:12 misspelled jealous twice

"I pretty much walked into a BigLaw job with no resistance."

Is biglaw as bad as people make it seem?

4:34 and 5:04: Another thing to keep in mind about that chart is it depicts only FIRST YEAR employment out of law school, when many people from the listed schools are doing clerkships for a year or two. The majority of those clerks take a BigLaw job after the clerkship ends. So the BigLaw % -- call it "people who [eventually] want a BigLaw job" or whatever you want -- is probably much closer to 80-90% at all the schools listed. (I know it was from my T3 class.)

big law is for pussies that wouldn't know a hearsay objection if it kicked them in the testicles. In fact I don;t know why Big Law even needs to hire lawyers as opposed to people with business degress (at least for corporate and transactional work). law degrees are utterly unnecessary for those fiields- the proof of that is it is common practice for big law shops to employ "attorneys" to do transactional work in states they are not even licensed to practicve law in! the clear inference is that what they are doing is not practicing law so no license needed. I don't mind all the brainwashed lemmings clamoring for Big Law jobs- I just hate it when they refer to themselves as "Lawyers"!

Re: 5:42 student "Is biglaw as bad as people make it seem?"

Yes and no. I'm a summer right now, so it's hard to say. But I'd say its about 50/50 -- among partners and associates -- as to who actually likes being here and who would leave if they had the balls. I love it so far, but I know the summer is not a realistic look into firm life. You get the impression early on that it's largely a thankless job.

Oh well. Have to go now. Firm dinner. This steak and lobster isn't going to eat itself you know. :)

YES THERE IS A TYPO- IN "Amendement" great work- this is what you do at Big Law

Re: TigerRadio July 11, 2007 05:51 PM

I noted this in the 5:04 follow-up post:

"Also this is all right out of law school. That's not to say there aren't Yale, Harvard, etc. people and then Fordham, GW, BC, etc. people going into clerkships or other non-BigLaw areas without an offer tied down who later decide to get an offer."

"Oh well. Have to go now. Firm dinner. This steak and lobster isn't going to eat itself you know. :)"

Yes, more personal training money for me!

My experience with most Georgetown grads is that they think they graduated from Yale and were on law review.

Blaming the law schools and the ABA is fine but people should think about the research they do before going to law school.

I graduated top 10 in my class at a 2nd tier NY school and I work at a big firm. I knew going in that I needed to be at least top 10% to get a good job and that otherwise I was going to be making 50-60K at most when I graduated. That scenario was unacceptable given that I was making 50k before law school. So I made sure I worked my ass off and did really well. Plenty of people will say that working your ass off isn't enough but everyone I know at my school that worked really hard got a great job. And some people didn't do as well first year but kept working hard and got their grades up during 2L and 3L and wound up at great firms.

The problem is many people don't research the job prospects before going to a law school. That is just stupid. What kind of idiot makes a $150,000 investment without doing research into the potential returns on that investment? The answer is that there are alot of idiots out there.

I think the investment analogy is inaccurate. Few investments will cause you to lose more than the initial amount invested. Going to law school costs much more than just tuition. You have lost wages while in school, interest on that loan, and the stigma of being a lawyer that follows you for the rest of your life.

A more accurate analogy would be what kind of person borrows $150,000 to place it on a bet in Roulette? If you're outside of the top 14 and want to do Biglaw, so you aren't crushed by those debt payments, that's a more realistic analogy.

I'd say anything outside the T20 is a pretty big risk. T20, imho, you can get biglaw if you want it and are top 60% or so....I'd call it this

T6: 100%

T6-T14: 90%

T14-T20: 60%

From there it gets pretty fuckin risky.

While many people have said that you should ALWAYS go to the best school you get accepted to, T2 state schools (or T2 with a big scholarship) have an added benefit of NOT forcing you to go to Biglaw. Without the Lawschool Loan monkey on your back, you are free to do whatever you want after graduation- be it government, public interest, small lifestyle firm, your own firm, clerking, etc...

Additionally, T2 doesn't necessarily preclude going to biglaw. If you could've gone to a T25 school, but then went T2, you are probably capable of being in the top of your class and therefore still getting a biglaw firm (perhaps not v5, but biglaw nonetheless).

Compare 8k/year after scholarship in a T2 vs. 43k per year in a T14 (this was my choice). That's a 105k difference after 3 years (before factoring in the interest that will accrue on the 105k debt). Even without a scholarship, a T2 state school is 16k a year, making the difference, between it and a T14, 81k.

If you are a hard worker and are confident in your abilities, T2 is worth the risk. It is especially worth it if you aren't sure you want to be in biglaw. Worst case scenario, you end up 24k in debt, but with a J.D. behind your belt.

I am not sure I would say the same thing about going to a T3 non-state school without a scholarship. There the worst case scenario is 120k in debt with no job and an even less marketable J.D. There isn't much career changing you can do when you have to pay those sorts of loans.

Ok I just finished reading the comments. Finally I can shower and get to work on this fine Wednesday morning. Wait, what time is it?

I got to a Tier 2 law school and have shit grades. But hey I lined up a decent job for graduation.

And one thing I can guarantee you: I tag more hot ass in a week than any of you Top 10 twinkies will in your entire law school careers. And unlike you, I don't pay for it. That's a distinct advantage of the Tier 2 state school education.

rofl @ 10:57. This is a classic thread.

I am laughing WITH 10:57 and AT all the t14 grads who are $165K in debt, work 80 hour weeks, and just generally SUCK AT LIFE!!!

I don't know what's worse - the T 2-4 schools that rips students off with high tuition and crappy job prospects or the morons stupid enough to go to them.

t2's aren't bad investments :(

12:03am- the t14 grads in 165k in debt, working 60-80hrs, making $160k are still in a better position than most students working 60-80hrs, in 165k debt, making 60k

Get a life. No one forced anyne to go to law school, and no one promised anyone anything. Stop all the whining that its the ABA's fault for making too mnay aw schools, and its the school's fault for charging too much. They charge what they need to cover costs and what the market will bear. Go into business, get a job at a company, whatever. Just don't choose to go to law school thinking the world will be handed to you ona silver platter, and whine when reality hits you.

In debt and others pining for that "BigLaw" job:

I'm a mid- to senior-level associate in the litigation department of a NY firm and make the top dollar salary that so many of you seem to want. But this job is definitely not all about the money. In that respect, I whole-heartedly agree with the comments posted by "Actions Have Consequences," who noted the drudgery and long hours associated with our line of work.

Too many of you are focusing solely on the money and are ignoring the day-to-day sacrifices that "biglaw" lawyers make. Is working at a big firm really something you want? Because even most of the people who accept jobs at such firms out of law school are ill-prepared for the demands it places on them and usually wind up at smaller firms or in other areas of the law. These lawyers may also leave a firm after a year or two still having massive debt and only being competent to review documents and to draft memos.

On the other hand, I would suspect that many of you at smaller firms are getting the type of experience that junior lawyers at big firms can only dream about -- at least those of you in litigation. And while junior lawyers at big NY law firms do make not insignificant salaries, they work for it. It's not unusual for people to have to cancel or postpone vacations, to conduct document review into the wee hours of the morning, or to routinely pull "all-nighters" working on briefs and memos, which, in some cases, may be skimmed once and then tossed in the trash.

But if you really believe that you want the big pay day (because you need to pay off debt or, maybe, just because you like money) and that you're cut out for the big firm life, there are alternative paths outside of on-campus interviews.

You must first decide what it is you want to do. If it's elder law or some such thing, you're probably going to have a hard time. Research the firms you want to work for and find a way to get a job at a smaller firm or to get work from your current employer that is relevant to the practice areas of potential employers. In short, get all the experience you can in your chosen area. If you're a litigator, getting experience in some type of commercial litigation is probably the best way to go -- try to do as much writing as you can (and if you don't get enough writing assignments at work, write articles on relevant legal issues -- even if someone else takes credit for authoring it).

Most importantly, work your rear off. First, there are many average lawyers, and even they work more hours than other non-legal professionals. Yet if you want to work at a "top tier" firm (and get the big pay day), but you didn't go to a "top tier" school, you can't be average. Instead of going out with your friends for happy hour or visiting your family every weekend, write and read about the area of law you want to practice. Second, the more you work, the more experience you'll get, which will result in more responsibility at your current job and more experience to take to the next one.

If this all sounds like too much and you're not willing to put the time into it, you should think twice about wanting to work at that big law firm. Whether you get hired out of law school or get a job afterwards, the big pay check doesn't come without its costs. Make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

In the end, if you wouldn't enjoy the high-intensity, high-stressed lifestyle, the pay probably isn't worth it -- not even if you're badly in debt. On the other hand, if you don't mind the high-expectations, which often include working around the clock and under severe time constraints, the job can be very rewarding -- and, as everyone has already noted, the pay's not bad either.

"Too many of you are focusing solely on the money and are ignoring the day-to-day sacrifices that "biglaw" lawyers make."

I don't know what I could do to dispell you of the notion that small firm life is easy, but let me try. We work on cases just like you, we put in long weeks just like you, we deal with jerk partners just like you and we are stressed just like you. The only difference is you make $100/hour for the work and we make $20-25/hour.

Re: Reality's post, are you serious?

Or are you trying to scare those who want to get into a biglaw?

Are you trying to say that to get a $160K paycheck, most biglaw lawyers have to work 80+ hour weeks, and at all odd hours, in addition to demanding bosses and the work itself?

So, when does a biglaw lawyer sleep or have down time?

I suspect things are different depending on your firm and market.... Reality probably works at a NYC sweatshop, they do work insane hours. Things are better overall in chicago! I work anwhere from 50-75hrs depending on the week.

Great article by Jonathan Foreman in the City Journal --see below.

My Life As A First Year Associate at a Big NYC Law Firm
2007--by Jonathan Foreman

It may seem odd to call someone a wage slave whose starting salary was $165,000 (though broken down per hour it was much less impressive). But the work of a junior associate, in reality, is being a clerk, a checker, the one whose job is on the line to make sure that the decimal points are in the right place. No one with an Ivy League education is going to perform this sort of drudgery for much less than 160 grand.

We were also faced with alienation from the products of our labor. You would work on the tiniest part of a huge transaction. You would never see the big picture, never know if your all-nighter made a difference, if your clauses appeared in the final documents, never even find out if the deal had gone through.

And to make the life bearable, you found yourself spending a lot of money. After a particularly long and dreary project, or a humiliating interaction with someone of higher rank, I would often slip out to buy myself a little present, perhaps another Prada tie. It's a way of reminding yourself that despite your misery you are a highly paid professional: you may feel like a serf, but you can afford to spend $450 on a beautiful strip of silk. This becomes a way of life. Some people eat chocolate to make themselves feel better; lawyers buy stuff. As they claw their way up the ladder, they buy more and more. Before they know it, they cannot imagine living without an enormous salary.

For a young, single associate this means making up for the unpredictability or lack of a social life by spending freely on your few free evenings. I took taxis everywhere without a thought. I dined at the most expensive restaurants in town because, dammit, it was the only real perk of the job. Lawyers pulling 100-hour weeks have more money than time. So, when we got to take our vacations, we just threw down our gold cards in front of the travel agent and didn't even look at the bill.

Most of us had expensive apartments. Again the thinking was, if my life is going to be so awful, at least I'll have a decent place to come home to. I tried not to think about how little time I spent in my pad, with its great views and empty fridge.

I had struck a Faustian bargain, and I was stuck with it. Without considering its implications, I had sold the firm an option on my time. All my time. I could be called at 3am on Saturday and ordered to go to the office for some proofreading. A friend of mine was forced to miss his sister's wedding. Fathers who were up for partnership worked so hard they never saw the children whose private educations they were paying for. I remember seeing sixth-year associates humbly swallow insults like "shithead" and "jerkoff." We may have been professionals to the outside world. But we cringed and scraped like Dickensian factory hands.

It was worse for the married associates. Some of them had spouses whose affections were predicated on an expensive way of life. Many had children or had taken on mortgages on apartments in an elegant part of town. It all gave the firm more leverage. The loss of your salary was such a terrifying prospect that they could do anything they wanted to you, and you would take it, like the fraternity pledges in the movie Animal House who replied to each blow of the paddle with, "Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

Nor was it simply a matter of money. Many were also bound by chains of status. They believed that you were either "on the track" or not. If you weren't