L2L: Lat will get around to the toilet firms in approximately ten years after the earth crashes into the sun.

Is it true that if you go to Debevoise you get stuck on really boring internal investigations that involve lots and lots of doc review?

i bet L2L would get a his/her pick of a top job in Atlanta!

dont insult atlanta. I do however know a couple of legal temp agencies that he might do well at...

first

don't know why it's so, but everyone i know at D&P (summer, junior, mid-level and senior associates) is MISERABLE.

I'm surprised that Shearman & Sterling is more prestigious than WilmerHale. I guess this reflects the Vault survey's NYC bias. I've been much more impressed by the WilmerHale people I've met than the S&S people.

I worked at Paul, Weiss in litigation. It was terrible. I did not have my own phone, I had to share 1 phone with 18 other people. Also, I was not given my own office, but sat in a computer terminal room. There was a no-eating policy that was STRICTLY and SWIFTLY enforced. One time, my poor colleague snuck in a pack of M&M's and was FIRED before he even finished! Poor guy, we felt bad for him but were too scared to acknowledge him on his way out. We kept working.

Wilmer can be great experience if you're in an area where the firm is focusing -- government investigations, patent litigation, corporate work. Ask about assignments -- whether you'll do lawyer work or two years of document review. Ask about the culture clash between the two legacy firms, especially in NYC. (If they say there isn't one, then you'll know how honest they are.)

After the top 10 there is a steep drop off. These firms could be ok in a few years but I'd stay away from them for now.

1243: TITCR

What about the DC offices of these firms?

12:22 re: Debevoise: seems true at the moment, but one suspects that case will likely have passed (or at least be in another phase) by the time any rising 2ls become actual attorneys.

Kirkland: they work too damn much. I mean all big firm lawyers do, but K&E-ers seem to work more than their peer firms do.

As a former K&E associate, I can say that yes, it is true, people at K&E work a lot, although I never had the feeling that I was in a sweatshop. They do expect you to be available at nights and weekends on a regular basis. I don't think they are very social-let's all go to happy hour tonight!-kind of place, but they are no assholes either.
They pay really good bonuses based on performance and hours, and they are quite generous with other perks. They have done a really good effort to keep with thhe market.
They also have a culture of education, not only from CLE courses but also at the partner-associate level, which is good. They give you lots of responsibility from day one and expect the best work-product. You will learn a lot.

K&E has a free market assignment system, so it's a self-induced workload.

1:06--"but [K&E] are no assholes either"

Obviously didn't work in the Chicago office. Which is not to say that the Chicago office is full of them, but "none" is not a reasonable position to take.

Odd, I don't know anyone here at D&P who is unhappy, let alone miserable. In my experience, it is pretty ideal.

12:43 - welcome, douchebag, from XOXO.

Aren't most of the posters here just douchebags from XOXO, using our inside voices?

WH DC is a great place to work. Yes, it's a big firm, and people work long hours, but the specialty groups get lots of substantive, hands-on work.

There is conflict from the merger, but otherwise, good.

If you can use your inside voice, then you're not an xoxo regular. It's axiomatic.

12:41 - Yes, there is a culture clash in WilmerHale's NY office, but I think it's becoming less so as people get to know each other better and as new first year classes come in. As for experience, as a first year associate yes, I did document review and legal research, but I also drafted discovery requests and responses as well as some small motions. As a second year associate I took and defended a few depositions, had a lot of responsibility on cases and got a lot of writing experience. As a third year associate I went to trial and had primary drafting responsibility on summary judgment briefs and witness outlines. I can't say what the norm is, but my first few years at WH were pretty good in terms of experience. And I would say that for the most part associates at WilmerHale don't seem unhappy - I know a few who are miserable, but I don't get the feeling that that's the norm.

I summered at K&E DC last year and cannot say enough good things about the people, work, and summer program. I highly recommend this office. Among the high points that come to mind:

* All of the people I came across were generous and modest; no assholes (from what I experienced).

* The free-market system rocks. The summer committee will help you find your first assignment or two. After that, you're free to pick out assignments from a database, or you can call up a senior associate or partner you're interested in working with and get an assignment that way. There were a lot of really interesting projects/cases over the summer, so it was nice to be able to pick what interested me the most.

* Overall, the lawyers lean right of center politically, but not by so much that my liberal co-associates felt uncomfortable or out of place. Political leanings mainly turned up in conversation and some of the work (e.g., on the "church" side of separation of church and state disputes; plaintiffs' work in media/defamation cases).

* I was getting ready to apply for clerkships, and the attorneys were extremely helpful in sharing information about different circuits, judges, etc., and even offering to make calls on my behalf.

* They gave us the latest model Blackberry to use during the summer. After the summer, they let us keep the phones, no strings attached.

* The usual wining & dining.

Feel free to leave questions.

There are assholes in the Kirkland DC office. If you want to work there, you should plan to work constantly and have a miserable, lonely personal life.

Its funny how much these firms SUCK compared to the Top 10 let alone the Top 5. Its Top 10 or bust b*tches...

1:41 - I'm sure there are, just as there are at every other firm. My point is that they do a good job insulating the summers.

As for the workload (which is really a different issue): (1) Summers aren't expected or required to work that much. (2) Lawyers work a lot, and I met several--especially some of the young associates--who hated their lives because of it and were openly looking for the first available exit. But still, the summer program was great, and most of the lawyers I met seemed to enjoy their work and life.

The stuff about K and E is completely nonsense. having worked there and gotten the hell out, I know first ahnd it sucks..Also, I know for a fact that KandE's HR department gets on this website and posts good stuff about K&E. And to those who think that some (if not most) of the positive comments are not being posted by the firms' HR department, you're CLUELESS about how the Big law system really works...

K&E SA--

Who are the main appellate people at Kirkland right now?

Also who are the main GOP in/out of govt types?

tyia.

I've always been skeptical of "free market" assignment systems.

Very insightful comment, 1:42.

DP's reputation for being a relatively nice firm amongst the elite is actually pretty accurate. We work like everyone else, but I've always been treated really well.

1:51 -

Landau is the appellate heavyweight in DC. From what I understand, Starr's departure left a vacuum in the supreme court & appellate staff, and Landau is in the process of rebuilding it.

Given the short time I was there, I didn't pick up on nearly all of the GOP connections, but I know of a couple. Steve Engel is one. From what I understand, he was involved in Bush v. Gore in 2000. While I was at Kirkland, he left to work for the DOJ. He's since made a name for himself. (e.g., http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/musical_chairs_the_doj_and_the.php). At his going away party, people made it clear that he was welcome back at any time, and he seemed interested in returning in the future. Elizabeth Papez, also mentioned in the link above, seems to be on effective leave of absence as well. Also, I recall conversations in which associates said there are a half dozen or so K&E associates doing something or another in the DOJ, all planning to return post GWB.

1:49 - I assure you, I am not employed by K&E, HR or otherwise. People can be so skeptical...

Thats great info, ty.

How do you think K&E compares to Gibson, Wiley, etc in terms of govt connections/revolving doorishness?

Thanks again.

1:38--- did you even bother to read my cover letter? Why can't i get a brake?

L2L

Its interesting to note that if you look at the bonuses at KE compared to schutle or any other firm, there is only one firm that beats KE's bonuses, and that is Watchell.

Its pretty much the 2nd highest paying firm out there

I'm not sure. Gibson clearly has the edge in terms of conservative litigation (Landau is impressive, but his experience and reputation don't compare to those of Olson or Estrada). I'd assume Gibson's political connections are equally impressive, but I just don't know. I have even less information on Wiley. Most of my Gibson information comes from friends who have summered there, and I don't know anyone who has spent time at Wiley.

STB gets great capital markets and corporate work in general, sometimes soo good that I wonder they are not V5. I hear from my friends there though that they are being worked to death, although I'm sure that is true everywhere of the same caliber.

I've heard that Shearman's D.C. tax group is fantastic. Great people, a New York-style practice, and fascinating work.

2:14, that's a good point. K&E's bonus structure is a well-kept secret - the individualized determinations reduce transparency. But if I were them, I would try to get the word out.

As an addition to 2:14's point - K&E's bonus structure is firmwide (not limited to its NY office). NY pay - Chi COL.

What is the K&E bonus structure?

2:24 -- It's discretionary, and it varies from year to year, but the last few years it has been something like "Beat the top NY firms and embarrass Sidley and Mayer."

2:26 - it's discretionary - within a range.

http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0035YN

2:26 - it's discretionary - within a range.

http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0035YN

K&E's bonus structure varies based upon hours, seniority and review status. The same grid is used firmwide. There is a meeting every year with associates that shows the grid that was used for the preceding bonus season. Frankly, I'm not sure why K&E doesn't publish the grid everywhere, because any associate "with the class" (i.e., with a pulse) that bills around 2100 hours is beating the crap out of the NY market. And if you are at K&E, and you have a pulse, you're definitely billing 2100.

By the way, the free market system exists and it is real.

How big are bonuses for first (and subsequent) year associates at K&E? In other words, what does it take to embarass Sidley and Mayer?

2:31 - very little.

2:31 - Good to see K&E is still producing high quality d-bags.

I think the range of bonuses on the chart are from 35 to 100k...but the chart is confidential.

and a first year could be rated well and his bonus will be on par with a 2nd year...

i've got a callback at shearman....any tips (aside from hating on S&S)?

Anyone who is skeptical of the free-market system either hasn't worked in a firm using the system or simply doesn't have the shnutz to say no.

If you're asked to do work at K&E, and you don't want it, you say "no." That's it. The only time I've heard of this being an issue was when a first year associate was turning down work and his billable hours were quite low, indicating he wasn't turning it down because he was busy, but because he just didn't want to do anything.

Informally, the free-market system reinforces civility, because partners act kinder and more reasonably when they know it is important that they keep a positive reputation among the lower ranks. There are a few partners here who really struggle to find associates for their projects due to the partner's poor rep for assholishness.

Will someone from K&E throw out a bonus number? Thank you.

You can find the bonus info on GA Chi.

Tip on S&S: not to hate, but the only information I have is from a friend that I respect greatly who summered there. He said he wished he hadn't taken the job, is not accepting their offer, and feels like they are trying to position themselves as a better QOL firm than the V10 firms as a smokescreen for their slipping reputation.

1:49 - bitter and a conspiracy theorist. Many associates who work at Kirkland are very happy. Of course, just like any big firm, it is not for everyone and sometimes you work more than you want to.

Last year I think the bonus kicked in around 1800, and the minimum for first year associates was $25k.

It will be interesting to see if bonuses remain that high this year, given that we've had two salary hikes since our last bonus season. I can say, though, that I've heard K&E bonuses have not fallen from the previous year for 12 straight years, and this is something many here are proud of. I don't think the bonuses will go up this year, but I think the firm will try hard to keep them the same.

Absolutely, K&E has blown the doors off in '05 & '06, but it's not correct to count on that being constant. BUT . . .

KE Ass2: "The same grid is used firmwide."

Except when it's not really--e.g. 1999 (or maybe earlier) thru 2004. Each of those years the NY office had a floor equal to NYC market and the rest of the offices had no floor. In several of those years, Sidley and Mayer had higher bonuses at certain hours marks, K&E at others.

Also, never forget that K&E's bonus year is July to June, but bonus is paid in December. So, if you leave, no matter when you do, you leave 5+ months of "earned bonus" on the table. You think this doesn't matter to you, but it most likely will.

2:44--

thanks, that's what i'm hearing all over the place. but i'm also hearing "its dependent upon practice group/who you work for"....

anyone else have any tips for a callback at S&S?

I thought the bonus year was Sept to August at kirkland?

2:47 - Most of the folks I know in Chicago made better than NY market before the grid was the same firmwide. The caterwauling that was done was as a result of not making as much as K&E NYC, not about not making NY Market.

BTW, the billable year has been switched from July-June to September-August. Not perfect, but better than the previous set-up.

2:53 - you're correct. Sept 1 - Aug 31.

2:53 - you're correct. Sept 1 - Aug 31.

When do the K&E bonuses actually get paid?

At the end of December.

Here's a link to the 2006 NY comp grid, which includes Kirkland: http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0035kz

I can verify that this is accurate for Kirkland.

2:57--Yes, the caterwauling in the past three years was w/r/t KE-NYC. Before that, the NYC office had a little discussed floor that was not applicable to other offices. Ask a class of '99 now-NSP what their first bonus was--$1500 bonuses were common in October 2000--justified by the $35k (or was it $38k) raise in base pay that kicked off the year.

The real problem then was that NYC was grossed up to match NYC market, but not other offices. Now, something like that may never happen again, but it did happen.

2:46--" I've heard K&E bonuses have not fallen from the previous year for 12 straight years"

That's more like the typical K&E BS we're all used to hearing. That simply is not true. It's not true anywhere--even Wachtell had a dip in bonus from 2000 to 2001. What hasn't fallen for 12 straight years is one of (or both, probably) distribution per share or PPP. Associate bonuses were MOST DEFINITELY lower in 2000 than in 99 and likely were lower for most in 2001 than in 2000.

Someone may well demonstrate the "accuracy" of the statement by asserting that the associate bonus pool went up every year--so what, so did associate head count. The bonus of the "typical" similarly-situated associate simply has not gone up for 12 straight years at ANY biglaw firm. 5 years, sure. Anything more is a total lie.

Can someone post a friggin bonus number?!?! ONE said a 1st year billing 1800 was 25K. What about for a 4th year billing 2200?

3:27--Read the grid that was posted by 3:14. That has plenty of actual numbers on it. Since it isn't lock-step, there is no way to know exactly how much a 4th year billing 2200 hrs will make, but you can guess a range based on the numbers in the grid.

Yeah, I saw that after I posted. If I understood correctly, Chicago KE paid the same bonus as NY?

My resume is out the door as I type this...

3:27-- I can't speak about the Chi office. I only know about the NYC office. I'm betting that K&E Chi Assoc1 can answer your question.

According to this grid, which is consistent with what I know to be correct, a 4th year billing 2200 would get a 72K bonus:
http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?topic=Greedy%20Chicago&msg_id=0035YN

More info and discussion here: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2006/12/associate_bonus_watch_kirkland_1.php

3:27 - Would you be willing to say what firm you are at currently? At the very least, are you at a close competitor (Sidley, Mayer, Latham)? What are the bonuses there?

Yes, same bonus.

As I understand it, Chicago associates were pretty much told that the firm policy going forward would be to keep the same bonus grid firmwide.

I have classmates that salary LESS that the median bonus for a 4th year KE assoc. That is just makes me sick. I've also heard Skadden's boni are pretty good too, but apparently not as good as KE.

And to the one poster, I'm not at Sidley, Mayer or Latham.

But crap, I billed ~2200 (which I realize is not THAT much) and got a bonus that pales in comparison to KE.

Bonues in biglaw range from 15k (low end) to 40k (top end) for 1st years. Nationally. So shut the fuck up - I am getting SOOOOOO TIRED of the bullshit "prestige" fight. Anyone who is at a firm that pays $160k to a dipshit kid straight out of school should consider their place within "biglaw" secure, and shoud SHUT THE FUCK UP.

3:52--Your range is not accurate. Check the grid posted earlier. Also, please just settle down. There is no need to get all upset or to start cursing. No one here is being rude to you, so please don't be rude to us.

It's crazy to me that someone could be so annoyed at a conversation that (a) apparently doesn't involve him, and (b) can be ended by closing the window.

Also, you're just wrong. Kirkland MEDIAN bonus last year was higher than the upper range you gave.

Enough about KE -- is Paul, Weiss really as bad as folks say? Is it any worse than other top NYC firms?

(Thinking litigation, quality of work, hours, work/life balance, if any).

All you folks do is post on ATL, when do you do all of this work and get good experiences like you say you do. . .

Use your law degree for some good instead of making the rich richer . . .

talk about S&S vs. PW please, any tips would be appreciated.

What's the bonus if I bill 3000 hours as a Sixth Year at one of these firms?

@4:42 - an escort out of the building, because you're clearly not partner material

4:31 - I'm using my law degree for good. Corporations drive our economy, fund social programs through the taxes they pay, create jobs, bring innovative products to market, research medicines and diseases...I could go on and on.

Meanwhile, I have classmates helping the scum of the earth--terrorists, criminals, gang members, even abortionists--and thinking they're doing the right thing. I'll never understand that mentality.

4:49- Why would 4:42 not be partnership material? Was that a joke?

4:34: Go to Paul Weiss over Shearman, definitely. Paul Weiss is more prestigious, has higher PPP (by about $1 million), and does not have a history of LAYING OFF ASSOCIATES.

(Yes, that happened many years ago. But in light of stock market, credit market, and real estate market problems, who knows what S&S will do if things go south...)

4:34, if you want to do litigation, go to PW over S&S. PW has some real stars who bring in great cases.

KE does pay higher bonuses. They do great work. They have lots of of a--holes though. Their firm culture is that whole type-A, we don't settle thing. It attracts gunner associates.

1st years billing 1800 = $25k 2000 = 37 2200 = 41 2400 = 49

2nd years billing 1800 = 25 2000 = 42 2200 = 46 2400 = 55

3rd years billing 1800 = 41.5 2000 = 60.5 2200 = 64.5 2400 = 72.5

4th years billing 1800 = 48 2000 = 68 2200 = 72 2400 = 81

5th years billing 1800 = 54.5 2000 = 76.5 2200 = 79.5 2400 = 87.5

6th years billing 1800 = 75 2000 = 99 2200 = 102 2400 = 110

does that K&E bonus apply to all offices?

I have to wait till we get into the V70s before I can comment about my firm...sadness

thanks for the tips, however i want to do corporate and PW isn't terribly well known for that is it? though the offices are nice and the bathrooms were very spiffy when i had my interview. is it true they have bunk beds somewhere for associates to get a few ZZZZzz's?

4:42, at the New York firms on this list, bonuses are lockstep. So your 3000 hours won't matter.

Last year, NYC Biglaw bonuses for sixth years were around $55,000 to $60,000. Who knows what they'll be this year? The first half of the year was great, but now it looks like the economy is tanking.

Last year at K&E NY, 1st year bonuses ranged from about $30,000 to $76,000. The median and average were around $52,000, which blows the market out of the water. The disparity between average K&E bonuses and NY market only grows with seniority.

Does anyone have any information on life in the Corporate Department at Paul Weiss?

8:56: This probably won't help much because it's so generic, but...

I had a friend who worked in Corporate at Paul Weiss. He worked like a dog and didn't enjoy it very much (the work, which he found boring - I think he liked the people he worked with).

But now he is at a hedge fund. So all's well that ends well.

WH associate (or anyone else who knows): Is it true that Wilmer in DC is a pretty "lefty" firm?

They seem to have a lot of heavy hitters from Democratic circles, like Jamie Gorelick and Seth Waxman.

If you go there and aren't that left-leaning, will you feel out of place (like a liberal going to Wiley or Gibson in DC)?

I've been at Shearman for almost a year and I've really enjoyed it. I work very hard, but I still enjoy it more and find it less pressure-filled than law school.

Advice for Shearman callbacks: Just relax, show some interest, and try not to come off as a backstabbing competitive type. Callbacks are usually very similar to the screening interviews, no games, no surprises. The attorneys really make an effort to get to know you on the callback. The firm is extremely diverse and seem to look for something quirky or different on your resume. They also seem to take a higher percentage of summer associates who've had work experience prior to law school. You might want to highlight those types of things in your interviews. Most importantly, the associates and partners are really looking for someone they 1) can count on to do a good job for them and 2) will actually enjoy working with and socializing with on the floor. I think the above advice would apply to lots of firms, not just S&S.

As for Shearman vs Paul Weiss, I cannot imagine a significant "prestige" difference. Anyone who thinks there is a major difference between two such great firms truly has either no life or no self-confidence and needs to spread rumors and throw insults at people who are very nice and dedicated to their profession. I've found my work at Shearman to be very rewarding and I like the people very much. I know people at Paul Weiss who really enjoy it - and work very hard, just like all big firms. I also know some unhappy people at both firms, who joined only for the money and didn't like the work in the first place - not even as a summer associate. The hours are also long. It's definitely not as bad as I imagined (I heard lots of war stories), but the hours are long at all big firms. At least we don't have minimum billables. If you have a callback, try to go on a lunch - as annoying as it is to have to worry about your table manners, it's a good way for YOU to interview THEM - to get more of a feel for what the place is like, whether you mgiht want to work on a project with those people, or have a beer after work.

12:39:

S&S does have an "expected" billable, though, and it's 2050. A partner told me (I work for S&S as well) so I'm confident that it exists. I'm not sure what the effects of it are, though. Bonus-wise, it seems to make no difference.

Thanks so much for the replies. Hopefully I'll interview with you for my callback, and of course I'm having S&S buy me dinner!

One-hundredth commenter!

Anything else on Debevoise?

as a K&E first year last year billing 2200 hours, got 43k

PW corporate - great people, interesting work. Long hours, yes, but good luck finding "lifestyle" hours at a top NY firm.

11:14-

WH DC is fairly far to the left. There isn't a ton of policy work (like at W&C), but the number of special investigations are definitely on the rise. Most associates I've worked with haven't been quick to bring their personal political leanings in to discussions thought.

What's the litigation department at Debevoise like?

Or how about the clerkship bonus at debevoise?

Re WH DC - the dominant political outlook, by far, is moderate on economic and national security issues (taxes, intervention, Iraq, Gitmo), liberal on social issues (gay rights, abortion, affirmative action).

Whether you think that's "fairly far to the left" depends on what issues you care about.

What is WilmerHale's (DC) bonus structure like?

How many hours do associates at WilmerHale (DC) typically work?

Its true WilmerHale is still experiencing merger issues and culture clashes. The real problem is that management doesn't do anything to mitigate the issues. Its also true there are great practice groups you can get into and insulate yourself ( I'm in one). The problem is that management seems to be leaving merger issues to attrition - which, in this case, is not healthy. WH is all about the money! Its integrity has suffered immensely.

K&E-LA is not a good place to be right now. We've lost 50 lawyers in the last two years. Overly dependent on a small group of aging rainmakers, soon to be retired. Younger, ambitious partners bailing left and right. Best associates leaving for competitor firms.

A wonderful place in its hayday, however. Going through a major hiccup now.