FIRST?

any info on Thelen's DC office? Culture, environment, etc?

Finnegan Henderson, good work environment, but filled with rejects from other top IP firms. Kirkland, Fish, Irell, et. al.

Thelen's been a sinking ship for several years now. A friend of mine from school works in their NY office... wow, total sh!t show. There a couple of clueless 1st/2nd years and a handful of 8th/9th years desparately hoping for partnership, other than that, everyone else ran screaming for the door about a year and a half ago. I'd be curious to hear if they've turned things around at all.

What about Thelen's NY office? Still bad?

While still actively considering IP work, Finnegan (partners and recruiting folk) actively discouraged me from taking a circuit clerkship. In their opinion, if you weren't going to a Fed. Cir. position, you were wasting their time. Strange reaction. Very generous and nice folks, though.

I've heard good things about Thelen. Does the new Vault ranking take into consideration the merger w/ Brown Raysman? Vault just says Thelen Reid & Priest, but the firm merged awhile.

One thing i've heard is that its as lifestyle of a firm as you can get. Partners are pretty laid back and the associates are people you would want to hang out with.

That's just what I've heard; I can be wrong, but I don't think its as bad as some of the other comments.

Thelen is absolutely a sinking ship. Basically their entire litigation department left about 8 months ago.

In what areas are Arent Fox the strongest?

Katten Muchin is a predominately Jewish firm filled with world class assholes who would trip a little old lady crossing the street if it meant another nickel in their pocket. The tie that binds is that 2/3'rds of the people are having extra-marital affairs.

It is true that a good part of Thelen's lit team left, but no one from Brown Raysman's lit dept left either. Hence, the reason for the merger.

I think the merger was a good thing for both firms. Perhaps both firms were hurting a bit, but the after effects of the merger have been highly positive.

Still an excellent place to practice Tech and Real Estate Finance Law. The Corp Dept is getting much stronger as well.

I had the worst GW-OCI interview possible w/KMR. The partner w/clammy hands reeked of humidity while he asked really abrupt questions all the while avoiding eye contact by staring at my shirt or staring at the floor. He could not be more socially inept and slimy if he tried, but I don't know if that is representative of the firm. Thankfully my prospects aren't so desperate, so I may never know.

I would love to get some first-hand / second-hand information in Arent Fox DC.

Thanks.

I would love to get some first-hand / second-hand information on Arent Fox DC.

Thanks.

gotta love a little anti-Semitism in the comments section... way to raise the level of discourse.

Thelen is definitely on its way up after the merger. The people are great, and the work is interesting.

Thelen's reputation in D.C. has slipped a lot in recent years with no signs of recovery.

First hand: Arent Fox has to be one of the best places to work in DC. The people are absolutely great, and for the most part everyone seems to legitimately care about other people. They also do some really great work, especially in IP, up-and-coming international trade, and contstruction/real estate, and they are stacked in government relations. Their offices are very nice also. I find it very surprising that they are not ranked higher in "Vault," although I guess they have been rising every year. They pay market salaries (160 in NY, DC, LA), and website says 20 for clerkships.
I don't think it's a coincidence that working there is so nice. The people at every level have great personalities, and by the nature of recruitment, they continue to attract that, in addition to grades, law review, etc. This past summer they were specially recognized in DC for their pro bono work...again. They just bought up a firm in LA for entertainment stuff, and one of the lawyers there is Dracula's son (the actor).

Dorsey gives out all kinds of cool freebies at OCI.....

Can't speak to Thelen DC, but Thelen NY is off the charts. Should be ranked much higher than they are following the merger with Brown Raysman. Amazing new office since the merger, and their reputation particularly in IP and Real Estate Finance is superb. Partners are definitely laid back, and overall it's a much less crazy office to work in than some of the other firms around town.

Dracula's son, that would be a Mr. Chaney?

The anti-Semitic comment above is egregious. Please remove it immediately. It is unbecoming and only indicative of the myopic, unreasonable, and irrational viewpoints of those whose viewpoints are undeserving of dissemination or promotion.

3:32 - SO what are the negatives of Arent Fox? All law firms have them....

I'd like to second REMOVE KMZ'S COMMENT IMMEDIATELY. It's tasteless, inappropriate and disgusting that people still think those thoughts.

A third to removing the comment. I have heard Katten is a great place to work and is actually strengthening its NYC office to establish more of a presence after the merger a few years ago.

Add a fourth to removing KMZ's COMMENT. It's pathetic.

Ditto. I would expect such unnecessary/inappropriate comments like this on auto-admit but not atl.

Fifth? Sixth?

Dorsey should not be ranked this high. They are only a presence in Minnesota and even that is now dwindling.

I love how Lat took out my comment criticizing him for ....gasp.....not covering the dewey/lebouef merger but anti-semitic comments are welcomed.

A fourth to removing KMZ's comment. What an obviously bitter scumbag.

I suppose KMZ wouldn't have felt very good about, for instance, Justice Cardozo's NY practice a century ago, or WLRK today.

That's right, KMZ, keep telling yourself that your low station in this world and the world's problems in general are the fault of an ongoing Jewish conspiracy.

On a more civilized note, I know a few people who worked at Katten (Chi), but who left as mid-levels (but for another big firm). They are quite talented and friendly, and all speak highly of Katten. (And, gasp...they aren't Jewish!)

edit: should read "but not for another big firm"

Dorsey is a great firm with good people and solid work. Dorsey's offices in Southern California and Salt Lake City are small but very well respected and busy with top-notch work. Not a player in New York though.

I've heard a lot of good things about Arent Fox too.

is finnegan a sweatshop?

Dorsey has been dropping steadily. I'm sure they'll be off the Vault 100 next year. The Salt Lake City market does not a firm's prestige make.

Dorsey did not match market salaries in NY. That can't be a good sign. On the other hand, I interviewed with the Seattle office and the four attorneys I met with seemed cool and to enjoy their job.

Any info on the following practice groups at Thelen NY: tech, employment, general lit - much thanks!

Katten was ranked above both Schulte and Akin Gump for hedge fund services in 2006 by fund managers in Alpha Magazine:

http://www.sflaw.com/AlphaAwards2006.pdf

Dorsey is well-respected in Seattle, home of its second-largest office.

I don't see what is anti-semitic about KMZ's comment. If he/she had said "ABC is a predominantly WASP firm filled with world-class a**holes," would that be considered anti-WASP? KMZ said nothing about Jews; he made a comment about KMZ lawyers.

I agree with Grow Up--all that is negative isn't necessarily anti-semitic.

I imagine the problem is that Katten is not a predominantly Jewish firm.

I worked at KMR (not KMZ . . . firm dropped "Zavis" a couple of years ago, I think) in NY. Although the time was short, I think I can say that the firm is a pretty good place to work. Low hours requirements (1900-2000, depending who you spoke with), and nobody really complained about anything while I was there. If people leave the firm, they say it's usually to go in-house or other legal field rather to another large firm (though, I can't really confirm this with personal experience). Partners in litigation and corporate departments seemed to be super friendly, funny, and down-to-earth people; those in financial services were (sometimes) slightly awkward to talk to but equally nice and seemed to care for associates' development. I don't have enough insight/experience to comment on those in other departments.

As one of the posts above says, Katten has a very good financial services practice. It also has a top-notch trusts & estates group. My understanding is that while many large firms do t&e, Katten is practically the only one that does the whole gamut of t&e-related services; plus, the managing partner is some super big-time t&e lawyer. As I'm not really up-to-date on my list of who's who in t&e, I'll just leave it at that. Also, solid real estate (one of the partners is the 2-time best real estate attorney in the world according to AmLaw, I think - though, I'm not sure which publication named her this).

It's not a market-leader in compensation and benefits, but it definitely keeps up with the competitors in salary, and my feeling is that it's at least middle of the road if not somewhat better in other benefits. Good office location in NY.

I think Minnesota is due for a restructuring. Dorsey and Faegre have ruled Minnesota for too long, and they are unlikely to survive in their current position as law firms nationwide continue to consolidate. Unless they find a big partner.

Thelen NY? Are you kidding me? I know several associates there and the atmosphere is pitiful. Back when Thelen was a much better firm (pre-merger) they had bright futures, now their firm is on the cusp of becoming "second rate"

I know a couple of Thelen Associates, both in DC and NY. Atmosphere post merger is great there, and they agree its more laid back. Tech, Real Estate are strong. The DC office is growing fast, especially in corporate work.

I agree with 5:01 on Thelen. The merger was helpful for both Brown Raysman and Thelen. A success all around.

Jews are responsible for all war.. Can I have another drink? (burp).. Come see my next movie..

I worked at Arent Fox in DC as a legal assistant before becoming a lawyer. They treat their staff well, and the place was generally empty by 7pm every night. From what I understood, there was no facetime requirement, and people were genuinely happy. That having been said, if I were a client in serious trouble, I'd rather go to a dozen other firms to save my ass- the attys I worked for were unimpressive.

4:53- Is right about Katten, it's a good, solid, middle of the road firm. Their not going to be a leader in paying you, but their also not going to extract a pound of flesh. The great T&E guy, I think is just the Managing Director of the New York office, probably among the highest paid T&E attorneys I've ever seen.

Guys trolling for Thelen are obviously recruiters there. Like I said, I know a ton of associates (more than 10), and everyone agrees the merger went awfully.

I have a few friends that work at KMR. All seem genuinely to like it, although at least one has expressed concerns that he might not be able to advance as he would like because he is not jewish. Another friend that works there seems to have no problems advancing though, and he's not jewish so the fear may be entirely ungrounded. I really hope these comments don't come across as anti-semitic. That is certainly not how I mean them. I do think its important though, for people to opening be aware that, at least for a few, the perception of favoritism is out there. How KMR chooses to deal with it is there prerogative, but its important information for associates coming in, as well as for there management if they intend on fighting the reputation.

maybe 535 worked with the wrong people at Arent Fox. have friends who work there and they seem to be doing impressive stuff. just a couple weeks ago the white collar group helped keep ney's former chief of staff out of jail in the abramoff scandal.... and he was the only one. and the RE group just closed the deal for the wedding crashers house. sounds like good lawyers to me.

Things in the Thelen SF office are really good - we're all busy, we have a better compensation structure (well, better for some of us), and the merger didn't absolutely kill the lifestyle aspect of the place - it's still better than 90% of the other biglaws in town.

Can anyone give me a good run-down of Katten Chicago? Specifically, the Real Estate dep't. What is life/hours like? What about perks/bonuses?

I have heard that Katten's bonuses rival any other firm (except maybe Kirkland) in Chicago. Is this true?

the positive thelen posts (for the NY office) are clearly recruiters.

I agree with 6:00 that fears of not advancing at KMR because a person isn't jewish is unfounded and imaginary. I know of several non-jewish attorneys at KMR who are associates and partners, including 2 Catholic lateral associates who became partners. Maybe KMR used to be a "jewish firm" but I don't see it now.

6:02, I have several friends who are happy at Katten - lots of client contact, interesting work, good hours and opportunities for advancement, etc.

Some of the most recent partners at Katten aren't Jewish and I seriously doubt that if your friend doesn't advance there, it's because he isn't Jewish. He's probably just a subpar associate who will never make partner anywhere and needs to make some excuse for it that doesn't relate to his own incompetence.

Also, I don't see how your friend's story amounts to the firm having a reputation for favoritism that management should combat. As far as I know, Katten actually has a reputation for taking diversity pretty seriously as well as for being a great place for women to work.

Dorsey & Whitney is the king of small markets with offices in such places as Fargo, Anchorage, Des Moines, Missoula, and Salt Lake City. In New York and DC however, Dorsey is a total joke. Dorsey isn't even the best firm in its home market - Faegre left it in the dusty 4 or 5 years ago. The fact that Vault even included Dorsey in this years list calls all of its rankings into question.

5:38 knows 10 attorneys from Thelen? Out of over 200 in the NY office? 5:38 is obviously very knowledgeable about the firm. Someone is always going to be disappointed anytime you have a merger. New people come in, power gets shifted, egos are hurt. The NY office is different today than it was this time last year, and almost all changes are for the good. It’s a great place to work with friendly people and reasonable (for NY) hours.

There is a white female 2nd year associate at Katten in NYC who is trying to fuck her way up the Biglaw legal ladder. If you are a Partner maybe u can get some. She is hot but crazy.....and she went to a tier 2 school!!

I worked at Dorsey for 5 years. Left it for life style reasons. I now litigate against it.

Totally disagree with any perception that it is tanking locally. The idea that Faegre surpassed it is just idiotic. If you actually litigate here, you'd know that this was a really stupid statement.

I don't know much about its rep nationwide. I haven't paid much attention actually since I jumped board.

What I did like about Dorsey was the amount of time that they put into associate training. I personally took that training and moved on. They invested heavily in associate training, and in the trial department (my department), their efforts to get you experience were unbelievable.

I can't imagine it better elsewhere. Seriously, I can't. And I didn't even particularly like the place.

5:38 is more believable. Anyone who is that "gung ho" about a firm is obviously someone who summered there and is faced with the unhappy prospect of returning or someone seriously vested with the firm (partner/recruiter). Let's face it. Thelen is second tier in just about everything it did. Firms don't go through mergers and screw around with everything unless theres a compelling reason.

First year bonuses at Katten Chicago started at $22k. RE group is generally regarded as one of the top 3 of Chicago-based firms and very high nationally. National department head, Nina Matis, recently named top RE lawyer in the US.

Thelen deserves to be higher than #90. I think the Vault ranking doesnt take into consideration the merger.

From what i hear, the merger happened too late for the surveys/rankings to take everything into consideration.

Like all big laws, there are downsides. But Thelen seems like a good place to work. Definitely strong work in Corp, RE, and Tech. Expanding internationally as well.

I know who that girl at Katten is. She is a pretty hot Jewish girl, but kind of short.

The partners at KMR in NY are mainly Jewish, but the more junior associates are not. This may indicate that KMR is trying to change the perception of the firm.

8:37 - you want to be a bit more telling?

THOSE OF YOU WHO BELIEVE THE COMMENT ABOVE WAS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC ARE MISSING THE BOAT:

1) WHETHER A LAW FIRM IS COMPRISED MAINLY OF OBSERVERS OF THE JEWISH FAITH IS IRRELEVANT TO THE QUALITY OF WORK OR QUALITY OF LIFE OF THAT FIRM.

2) THE FACT THAT THE POSTER ADDED A 'JEWISH' ELEMENT TO THE FIRM'S DESCRIPTION IS IPSO FACTO AN ANTI-SEMITIC DIG.

3) THE 'W-A-S-P' COMMENT IS SIMILARLY INAPPROPRIATE. AN INDIVIDUAL'S RELIGIOUS PRACTICE SHOULD NOT, AND DOES NOT, ACCURATELY REFLECT OR REPRESENT THE QUALITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR THE FIRM OF WHICH S/HE IS A PART.

4) MAKING A STATEMENT SUCH AS THE ONE MADE BY THE POSTER WAS DESIGNED TO CAST ASPERSIONS ON THE LAW FIRM AND LEAD PEOPLE TO MAKE ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE BASELESS. THE COMMENT WOULD BE EQUALLY OFFENSIVE IF ANOTHER RELIGIOUS FAITH WERE SIMILARLY REFERENCED. WERE THAT THE CASE, ALL OF YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THE COMMENT IS RIDICULOUS, E.G., "[FIRM] IS COMPRISED MAINLY OF BUDDHIST MONKS." RELEVANCE???

5) THE JEWISH COMMENT WAS A DELIBERATE DIG UPON THE FIRM AND MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH FAITH. THE COMMENT MUST BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY.

I am a former Finnegan associate in the DC office and summered there as well. Is it a sweatshop? No, not really, but that's all in the eye of the beholder. OTH, to make inroads with the junior to mid level partners who are taking over the place be ready to exceed 2000 billable routinely to make a good impression (and then add 200 plus of nonbillable to look good ... too). As you may know FH has revamped (sort of) their partnership track and making equity first time up is very very hard - most are offered non-equity or the new category "Of counsel." Also, the firm has done a lot of lateral partner hires recently which is a big departure from the past (with a few noted exceptions). Word from inside is that morale is OK but there is a lot of chatter about the number of associates leaving while the partners ignore the implications. Do not belive the hype found in the rags about "best place to work" because the recruiting machine there HOUNDS the associates to respond and then respond very high ... they are very prestige conscious - which says something. The firm tries to be "laid back" but if you spend enough time there you will see that it's very competitive and folks are anxious to get in front of the "right" partner. Kind of sad but not unlike a lot of other firms either. They are also very PhD conscious - perhaps motivated by the senior leadership's desire to impress certain big name foreign clients. The work flow depends on the group and the partner(s) - and whether it's lit or pros. Some partners are nice and do mentor, others are mean SOB's that are in it for thier own gain and could care less. Yet, all will say in recruiting that they "train" and are very proud of their programs - again, do not believe the hype. If you interview, ask very pointed questions - especially of the senior associate(s) - do not give them a pass by asking "will I get real work" or "will I get client contact." These questions are useless and they are using standard required responses ... trust me. Maybe ask who is taking over the reigns when Dunner et al. leave, and how will that impact that persons decision to accept non-equity partnership (or more likely of counsel). I'll bet you get a blank stare.

Last word - there is a lot to the statement that "stay at FH for 2-3 years then go to a place where you want to make partner and be a lawyer."

It's better to leave anti-semitic comments up rather than censor them. It's better to know that idiots like that exist than to have them in the shadows.

I suspect our initial poster is the disgruntled Chicago summer associate who was asked to leave due to his racist comments and his frisky hands...continuing to insult the firm won't help your reputation, dear.

Hey Louis Brandeis 9:20 AM,

Just because Deshowitz posts anti-Semitic hate mail to expose the irrationality of those sending the messages doesn't mean ATL should condone those types of posts. It's also disconcerting that you call yourself Louis Brandeis, but that is far less egregious than the racist comment that instigated this entire diatribe.

I work at Katten, so this is biased, but I am happy, well paid, work with interesting clients in Real Estate, get to meet and interact with clients and prospects, have had support of partners from my own office and others in networking and working on inter-office projects, I have meetable and reachable hours requirements, nice bonus and work with great people. Katten was also named one of the top 50 law firms for working mothers.

Not sure what people are looking for in a firm, but if you are anything like me than getting all of the above is pretty sweet.

As for Katten being a "Jewish Firm", a lot of that is based on history and one should respect a firms roots, but not being Jewish has not hindered my career, my prospects or my work. Making negative jewish remarks, or slandering our female associates, is beyond classless. They reflect the posters own ignorance, and make me happy that we do not work with such dolts.

To 2:47 PM:

Many law firms in NYC employ a large number of people who happen to be members of the Jewish faith. That characteristic is not particular to Katten. Although members of the Jewish faith frequently work in sophisticated fields such as law, banking, and medicine, and you may notice it more in NYC than other places with smaller Jewish populations, these people did not attain those positions by tripping old ladies for nickels.

Moreover, I am not Jewish and if I thought that tripping old ladies for nickels would be a profitable endeavor, I would go into business doing it.

Welcome to New York you neo-nazi prick.

Hey 08/30 8:37

Any such accusation is unplausible and unfounded as it would become an immediate concern as possible sexual harassment. Additionally, in case you didn't know, becoming partner requires a vote by the partners (you should consider this as you do what you can to get "ahead"). Maybe you are just jealous b/c if you had a chance to suck dick to get to the top you would. Go ahead and try to be more classy b/c your accusations are not constructive.

Anonymous 11:33 AM,

I don't think ATL is condoning the post by leaving it up.

Anyway, I'd rather see it. I've learned something from seeing it. It exists, and I don't need to be sheltered from it, and I don't know why you do.

btw 08/30 8:37

What top tier school did mommy and daddy pay for you to go to? Maybe you sicked cock to get in? Did you get good grades (maybe you sucked cock to get them, I heard that's how that works)?

Some of the best lawyers I know went to second and third tier schools. Sometimes people end up there b/c they cannot afford a "first tier school" or they cannot afford to go full-time, which is required by most "first tier schools." The same drive that motivates these people to tough it out, makes them great lawyers. That is why sometimes "first tier firms" hire lawyers from "second tier schools."

I would prefer hiring one of them over a pansy from a "first tier school" who uses the shelter of website postings to make slanderous accusations against people and otherwise reputable law firms.

btw 08/30 8:37

What top tier school did mommy and daddy pay for you to go to? Maybe you sicked cock to get in? Did you get good grades (maybe you sucked cock to get them, I heard that's how that works)?

Some of the best lawyers I know went to second and third tier schools. Sometimes people end up there b/c they cannot afford a "first tier school" or they cannot afford to go full-time, which is required by most "first tier schools." The same drive that motivates these people to tough it out, makes them great lawyers. That is why sometimes "first tier firms" hire lawyers from "second tier schools."

I would prefer hiring one of them over a pansy from a "first tier school" who uses the shelter of website postings to make slanderous accusations against people and otherwise reputable law firms.

btw 08/30 8:37

What top tier school did mommy and daddy pay for you to go to? Maybe you sucked cock to get in? Did you get good grades (maybe you sucked cock to get them, I heard that's how that works)?

Some of the best lawyers I know went to second and third tier schools. Sometimes people end up there b/c they cannot afford a "first tier school" or they cannot afford to go full-time, which is required by most "first tier schools." The same drive that motivates these people to tough it out, makes them great lawyers. That is why sometimes "first tier firms" hire lawyers from "second tier schools."

I would prefer hiring one of them over a pansy from a "first tier school" who uses the shelter of website postings to make slanderous accusations against people and otherwise reputable law firms.

I work at Katten. And yes, the firm is mostly Jewish in makeup. And has been dating back to it's roots. So what. I read the original post that generated the stir and take no offense. Saying a firm is predominately Jewish isn't a slap or a compliment. If the person said a bunch of Jewish blankety-blanks, then that would be a different story. Is there a lot of assholes in this firm? Yes. But there are also a lot of even-minded and reasonable people as well. Is this an "aggressive firm"? Oh yeah, in a big way. The DNA of most KMR partners has aggressive in it. Maybe that is why this firm has been uniquely successful despite not being on the map for more than a couple decades. KMR isn't for everybody, but for me it's a great firm. And not simply because I'm an "aggressive 29 year old male of the Jewish faith."

Although it might not be intentional, 2:47 PM's posting is a racial epithet b/c it characterizes Jewish people as money hungry and cheap. Therefore it is anti-semitic.

To 8:34 am poster. Thank you for your insight into Finnegan. Can you elaborate on your last sentence on staying at FH for a few years and then get out? Is there really a benefit to doing that? Does any group (Elec/Comp, Bio/Pharm, Chem, or Mech) exert a bigger influence on the firm's leadership or contribute more to the firm's revenues?

Once, while looking at the attorney directory of the NY office of a large firm, it occurred to me that the ratio of the number of Smiths and Johnsons to the number of Cohens and Greens could be an amusing little rule of thumb as to the diversity of religion, so to speak, at a firm. Of course this is not meant as any sort of a measure of positive or negative qualities, as KMZ and the like may perceive it to be, simply a crude device for looking at one aspect of the firm's employees lives. I did a few quickly just now, Katten (7 Smith/Johnson 8 Cohen/Green) and Weil would be .875, Cravath 1.4, and Sullivan 1.67. Lol Wachtell would be 0, no Smiths or Johnson on the attorney list.

Finnegan IS a sweat shop for some people. Me and my fellow associates in the electrical group did about 2400 hours this billable year.

A friend of mine who summered at Finnegan and who decided to return (for the standard 2-3 years before leaving for a better firm) said that many summers were on the fence about returning. Not a good sign.

The people at Finnegan (mostly) are awesome. Hours depends on which partner you work for and if have partnership aspirations (have to work far more than 2000 to impress the people at the top). Problem is that they don't give associates good work (usually). Their bonuses are pathetic too. Its a good place to start your career if you work for the nice partners (and not the handful of not-so-nice partners).

I posted above about and am a former associate. I think the comment on sweatshop for the electrical group at FH is on overstatement for effect. The hours at FH can get long, but that has a lot to do with the group and the partner(s). The people are "nice" (do you expect a$$es?) but there are cliques everywhere from girl cliques to guy cliques to group cliques .... a lot of the folks need to grow up. The competition for work is fierce and as someone above said, there is a lack of real lawyering for junior associates. The mid levels grab a lot of good work and do not let go ... unless you consider a memo (ooh) to answer a stupid summer level question ... there is a lot of "busy" work by partners simply to drive up numbers (trust me ... I cannot count how many projects were useless but it made the firm profitable). The groups themselves are so different it's hard to generalize, but from my epxerience, avoid electrical, the group leader is a bastard and makes life miserable. The mechanical group is OK, there are some nice folks (avoid the Catepillar prosecution nightmare) and many of the strong litigaitons eminate from the group. The bio group is an oddball, with the group leader a bit of a lark who is not a great leader, perhaps he's simply doing it to move up the ladder, who knows. The chem group is interesting, they have lost a lot of associates from all levels and for many different reasons. There is good work in the chem group if you can get with the right team. I think the statement above about 2-3 years then leave is right on. The problem the junior associates face is that when they compare themeselves, on average, they are behind the curve (of course there are exceptions) with a lot of other DC GP firms.

WHile FH might be seen as the "leader" I think the rest of the IP community is catching up, or has caught up to them and what will be most interesting is how FH deals with the view from somewhere else than the perch. And how will the clients react when the old timers finally decide to leave? Perhaps with the strogn quality found in GP firms companies will start shopping work even more ... only time will tell.

Dorsey's Vault Rankings:

2003: 85
2004: 86
2005: 84
2006: 81
2007: 83
2008: 89

Its demise is greatly exagerated.

Also look at the Chamber's rankings. It still dominates Minnesota. The only people claiming otherwise are local law students that Dorsey didn't hire.

Moral: Talk to local lawyers, not local law students.

In response to ANONAHOLIC:

Your comments were actually pretty accurate. The Mechanical group at Finnegan actually seemed to enjoy themselves, do good work, and have better people (incl partners). I would stay away from the other groups though. Describing Finnegan as a place with lots of busy work is right on - if you want REAL hands-on training in patent litigation, go somewhere else. If all you want to do is patent prosecution (where it is hard to meet your hours) or glorified document review, then Finnegan is decent enough.

I personally think the firm is just too top heavy (previous people have talked about the higher-ups keeping the good work from junior associates). I don't see Finnegan's current business model holding up for much longer - its probably why they are not making many people equity partners anymore.

A lot of these comments about Thelen do not take the recent merger into consideration. Many of the problems Thelen was facing have been alleviated by the merger w/Brown Raysman. It is somewhat less of a lifestyle firm, but things are only getting better compared to what Thelen was going through in the past. Morale is definitely up significantly.

Thelen Reid is a horsesh*t firm. Don't work there. I did, and I regret that I have that horsesh*t on my resume'.

I did not get asked to leave. I bolted. The work is terrible, the training is non-existent, morale is bad, and the "supervising" attorneys are idiots.

And I worked in the D.C. office. Can't really comment on the rest of the firm. I'm at a much better shop now.