bat signal, lat.

If I were a Heller partner, I would be happy to see this SA go somewhere else.

What a baby. Trying paying off your loans on $55,000 a year with a monthly payment of $1100.

He's crying about paying off loans? Please

1:51 --

Maybe you shouldn't have gotten such a crappy job.

As a matter of contract law, they accepted the job at the salary they are being paid.

They are being paid the absurd sum of $2800 to do little to no work.

They will get the increase when they work full time.
Paying off loans on $2800 should be pretty darn doable.

The summer associate has a point. And you know what, if you are a 2L and you even consider working for Heller after this crap you are a dumbass and you deserve to get shortchanged in the future. Know who the top firms are and stick to them.

1:51: nobody cares about your low-paying law job. congratulations on being a trooper though!
the issue is only whether heller erred to pay summer associates below the rate they pay first year associates (the practice at almost every single biglaw firm). the question is about whether it will hurt its chances of being competitive in the biglaw world, not whether 2800/wk is objectively a lot of money.

I am pretty surprised they would bring this up at a meeting. The balls on these youngsters these days.

Heller Ehrman is on its way down. When firms do chintzy stuff like this, it's a signal of poor management or poor financials.

Is $300/week for 10-12 weeks really worth the bad PR? It never is...unless you really can't afford the $300/week.

2:14 calls it - once they start jerking you around and not meeting market comp., the best associates are looking to leave pretty quick, and everyone knows the ones that stay behind are the ones who couldn't find a better gig.

2.02pm

I would hardly call a state appeals court clerkship "crappy".....unless you happen to judge the value of a legal job by how much you are paid...you sad person.
I guess the DAs in this state have crappy jobs as well...since I make more than they do!

Did that pathetic bonus quote cited above apply to the NY office also? That is LAUGHABLE. Hell, NJ firms with 25 lawyer offices in the city pay more at 2100 billables!

In the words of one of one Texas Law School professor, "Nobody gives a shit about state court clerkships." I would call a state appellate court clerkship crappy. Of course, I go to Michigan. If a went to a T4, for example, I might be impressed with myself if I got a state court clerkship.

Sure...state clerkships are not "prestigious" or portable like a Federal clerkship. However, I am staying in this state.

Michigan = the state court clerkship of law schools

I didn't see anything in that last post that denied that state court clerkships are crappy.

1:51 -- You sound just like what L2L will sound like if he/she ever gets a job.

Heller is hardly the only firm in SF/SV that didn't apply the raises to summers.

Dear Law Students,
Stop kidding yourselves: you are not worth $1000 a week, much less $3100 a week. All of your time is written off because your work, almost without exception, sucks. It's not because you are dumb, it's because you are inexperienced. That's all fine and well, and it's part of the law firm recruiting reality that all attorneys accept. But it's one thing when associates, who are actual lawyers, grub for money, but another when it's recent college grad with 2 years of law school under their belt bitching about not making over 3G's a week. Have your two hour lunch, sip your free cocktail, and go to happy hour after you leave work at 5:30, but don't bitch about your pay.

There is nothing wrong with State Appellate Clerkships for T3 and T4 students who are at the top of their class and can't land a Federal District.

2:47, re: complaining about pay ... I don't think summers actually think they're worth the money they get at the 145 rate or should get at the 160 rate. Perhaps more concerned about the fiscal health and status of their firms. Not giving summers the raises is a bad sign.

Yeah the pay is "crappy" at my state court clerkship....but that is the same with all clerkships. I like the job and I have learned alot. Patrick, you sound like a real conceited asshole

The sense of entitlement amongst summers is astounding (and I'm a summer). I wouldn't extend an offer to that summer. If he's bitching now, he'll only bitch more as an associate....

2:51: I would say making the decision not to piss MORE money away on summers is a sign of fiscal responsibility. Making bottom line expense decisions (and that's what summers are: overhead) is not an overall indicator of a firm's financial health.

You may be right, anon.

Summer associates are not worth $100 a day....what a whiny fuck that summer is.

The issue is one of staying competitive. Who cares if $3,100/week is objectively a lot of money for a student. It is.

The issue is these kids were recruited by a Firm that doubtless touted itself a being "market" in terms of salary, and now they're not living up to that.

I think it's foolish, because such a small amount of $$ for the Firm will likely cause rising 2Ls to not even consider them if they have another offer from a Firm that paid its SAs "market" this summer.

Maybe the Firm doesn't care, or maybe they plan to pay next year's SAs $3,100 to avoid the above from happening. The 2007 SAs really won't be looking elsewhere because they'll still be getting paid "market" when they start full-time anyway.

I am a summer associate at a big firm, and it's hard to imagine having anything to complain about. Then again, I've been in the real world for more than 15 years before law school and I know what it's like to try and earn a living. Try paying undergrad loans on a 40K salary. Besides, law school loans aren't due until after law school when we are making 1st year associate salaries. If this summer is so unhappy, I have a lot of friends in my law school who would love to trade places this summer.

I'm getting ready for Early Interview Week. If I receive offers from two firms that both pay 160K, and one pays its summers an extra 300 bucks a week, that is about the last thing I'm going to consider in looking at these two firms. If the $2800 place is a better fit, only an absolute fuckstick would pick a firm because it's paying him an extra $3600 for the summer (or close to $2,000 after taxes).

It's not just about the $300, it's about the firm's position in the market. Potential recruits need to realize that cheap law firms are cheap across the board -- if they're not raising for summers, it reflects a terrible attitude toward compensation and suggests that the firm may have underlying financial troubles.

If you go to a firm that doesn't pay market, don't be surprised when you have problems with bar dues, the technology allowance drops, they cut back on other things, etc. You were warned.

I'll bet anything that the complaining summers are douchebags who went stragith from undergrad to law school and have never held down a real job in their lives. Go cry to mommy.

I'll bet anything that the complaining summers are douchebags who went straight from undergrad to law school and have never held down a real job in their lives. Go cry to mommy.

2:29: The answer to your question is yes. Huge bone of contention, too.

3:22: thanks for using the word "fuckstick". That made my afternoon.

p.s. I agree that "fit" is woefully underweighted by most of the folks commenting at ATL. But since the large majority of these people apparently do not plan to stay in their first job more than 2 or 3 years, maybe it makes sense, even if it's stupid.

Free marketer has it. This isn't really about whether or not summers are "worth" the increase (I think everyone pretty much agrees that they weren't even "worth" the old salary) but whether the firm is going to stay even with the market. The firm that refuses to pay its SAs the same as its first years is the same firm that is going to try to not pay market bonuses, not pay market salaries at the higher associate ranks, etc.

They're seriously only paying out 5k bonuses for 2100 hours?!? In NYC?!?
This is a firm that is having financial problems.

3:43: Correction - you get a bonus at 2000 hours. As to "fit", "fit" changes from year to year. You may love who you work with during your summer and then get stuck with people you hate when you show up the following fall. Money is static. If you think you wouldn't resent those $300/week when you're working just as hard as peers at other firms, you're mistaken.

Two things:

(1) It is one thing to ask for a raise for your already grossly overpaid job, not get it, and decide to work for a different employer because you could find a higher-paying job somewhere else. It is another thing altogether to be so ungrateful that you write to David Lat, asking him to start a thread on his blog about how terrible this is. If I were an associate or a partner at Heller Ehrman, I would fire you for poor judgment.

(2) People use such foul language in the comments to this blog. Settle down, people!

Not only do the Heller east coast offices get paid market, but they don't go cry to David Lat every time something doesn't go their way.

Asian Guys With White Under-Paid Heller Ehrman Summer Associate Girls

Heller East Coast offices pay market salaries, but not market bonuses.

Well, as a rising 2L f@#%stick, I was interested in a west coast Heller office that apparently decided to 1) not pay its summers market and 2) not pay its associates market bonuses (or raise to the real 160 market scale, if you prefer). Suprisingly, this same office just lost a couple of partners and a bunch of its associates to another firm.

Maybe these things are related and maybe they're not, but the combination does not speak well of the place at all.

The economy is done. I say enjoy the gravy train while it lasts.

So at my bay area firm they raised the summers the same time as the associates.

And to whomever said someone had a contract as to how much they were getting paid over the summer- at my firm they stated they did not know the compensation yet, but they have a policy of paying the same as a first year. Also Heller would have been at 135 (2600 a week) back when they got the offer in all likelihood (that was "market" in the bay area in November) so they got one raise that is different from their "contracted" rate.

And the truth is, I know someone at Heller- and they are perfectly happy making their money and love the firm. But it's hard when they're told that it's one of the best firms in the bay area (and judging by the quality of people working there from my school, I thought it was), and then find out they don't pay their summers the same as others around here, when they did pay the same when they accepted the job. (Including Orrick, Latham, and Cooley to name ones I specifically know are paying at 3100 a week.)

I personally chose my firm based on fit- not on reputation- and I'm glad to have done so, and I happen to have gotten lucky that it decided to raise. But it would suck to have believed that my firm was not only a good fit but near the top of the market in a city and then have them not even explain why they won't pay their summers what those down the street are making. Or why the associates are getting screwed on bonuses.

And yeah I'm feeling entitled because I won't be hurting for offers at firms that 1) pay more and 2) seem to have happier associates (for whatever reason). I think I'd be pretty stupid not to look at that when considering "fit".

blah blah blah... this is getting so old... I see this same thread once a week. A bunch of midlevel associates who call the SAs whiny babies. Just drop it. Either you were a SA once and your being hypocritical, or you're just a bitter ass who has a chip on his/her shoulder because you never had the chance to have a sweet SA gig. Get over it!

Also, Skadden actually makes money on their summer associate program from billing out their summers. I'm sick of everyone saying that SAs aren't worth the money... maybe a lot of them aren't, but there are also plenty of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th year and so on who aren't worth the money either.

Finally, to 3:31... why don't you go cry to your mommy... I'm sick of hearing people like you complain about law students straight out of college. Get over it!

I really just think it shows terrible judgment to ask David Lat to start a thread about your summer associate compensation, knowing that your firm will then be cast into the limelight and criticized by people across the country.

It's sort of a "pay me another $300 per week or I will make a big stinking deal about it by making sure that your decision is thoroughly criticized on a website that most summer associates sit around and read all day instead of being productive." That's immature. Whatever Heller summer e-mailed Lat, did you think about what an idiot you are before you pressed send?

I happen to be an associate at Heller Ehrman and can say that the only real issue is the lowering of the bonus and the raising (by 200 hours - one full month of work) of the hours to get one. As for concerns about reimbursement and technology, I can tell you that of the firms I've worked at and firms friends have worked at, the management at Heller actually puts more walk in their talk than any I know of, not to mention I've never been reimbursed so quickly for my expenses before. Not a cheap firm by any stretch, just trying to figure out how to keep clients (who are now having to pay for all of our salary increases) and associates happy. All that being said, I think the management has been clear in-house that it is still figuring out how they will land on the bonus issue. And I have no doubt that this was only an issue because the change happened mid-summer - I can't imagine that Heller wouldn't pay next year's summers whatever the market rate was.

5:21 - we are neither hypocritical nor bitter, we just look back on our summer work and realize how useless we were (and I got stellar reviews as a summer).

5:25, what the fuck are you doing on this blog at all, if not looking for people to complain about their firm's compensation? The entire point of Above the Law is to create an efficient market where everyone knows what everyone else is getting paid, so that people can tell not to go to the crappy firms that pay less than their peers (provided they can get a better offer). You're worth what the market is willing to pay you, and in this environment, that means that you're worth $3100/wk as a summer. If your firm isn't paying you that, it's not a good sign down the road - next thing you know, they'll be asking for half of your $125 BarBRI settlement back.

And this is coming from someone who was quite happy on his $2400/wk as a summer associate, for what it's worth.

C'mon, the whole $3,100/week thing for summer associates is jeoke. Why not just write them a check for $50k and tell them to come back when the pass the bar? That would be much more efficient for the firms as a whole.

The summers at our firm did a lot of useful work. And a bunch of them just got offers today.

LA biglaw, I know who you are, and you are full of shit. Our summers failed to meet deadlines and turned in sub-par work. The employment committee approved their offers because some of you idiots decided someone being "cool" was more important than their skill as a lawyer. Now we're stuck with 'em. Thanks a lot.

What's a 2L going on 3L with an offer going to do? Turn it down because of the $300 difference? I doubt it.

Personally, I think summer associate recruting is a waste of time. The turn over from attorneys starting at a firm is very high, and I bet more than 50% of folks making partner these days are laterals.

SA at PH & LW have told me their bonuses are the following:

Paul Hastings $30k at 2000 billables
Latham: $28k at 1900 billables

that's for their CA offices and for 1st yr associates.

Heller Ehrman is going to crash and burn. They are way over extended, and regularly f-k over their associates as they try to act like a big firm. Do you best to get another job if you can.

get out while you can

check this out:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/heller_ehrman_axes_65_support_staffers/#comments

http://www.abajournal.com/news/heller_ehrman_axes_65_support_staffers/#comments

From that article:
The Recorder reported May 11 that the firm’s corporate group in San Diego lost nearly half its lawyers in the prior six weeks. A source said there was an internal war between new recruits and longer-term lawyers.

Recruiters said they have been seeing more resumes from Heller lawyers as of late.
- Wow, do they know something we don't?

Heller not only lost most of its SD office, but their top notch Employment Law atty (Pat Gillette) took her group to Orrick. Some attorneys and staffers were advised to seek alternative employment. Heller is now, and has always been, top-heavy with partners, and the "merger" with Venture Law has resulted in a marriage made in Hades. But no one there will admit to it.