first!

Firsty McFirsterson

K&E offers a $20K bonus for JD/MBA's, but no year's credit.

Latham giving a bonus? I didn't know Latham and bonus could be written together in a sentence other than: "Why is Latham being so cheap and not increasing clerkship bonuses from $35K to $50K?"

Yes. Absolutely yes. Especially if you are a lawyer with leadership skills and ambitions. The biggest dilemma facing most firms in crisis in strategic leadership. Somebody with b-school training to go along with their JD and prerequisite leadership qualities can go very far in law firm management. And if leadership isn't your bag, then possession of a MBA will invariably help you interrelate to the issues facing your corporate clientele.

wouldn't that be a great combination.

Any law school with LLM/MBA to offer?

How about info on a Tax LLM in regards to bonus and track credit

I believe Skadden bumps you a year.

MBAs. I just don't get 'em.

Of course it would be helpful, but often law firm hiring usually isn't that insightful. It might give a junior associate a leg up on his/her peers, and it might make a lateral candidate more attractive. However, plenty of associates join or lateral in without an MBA, so while it's a benefit, it's not a huge benefit.

And certainly associates with JD/MBA's aren't hired for the contributions that they could make to law firm management 10-15 years down the line.

It's great if a JD/MBA is rewarded with a small bonus, and it would help an associate relate to a corporate client better, but does it get a stock purchase agreement done more quickly or better? Probably not.

Pursue a JD/MBA if you have an interest in having the degree or if you have non-law firm aspirations down the road. If all you want is to work for a firm, the cost benefit analysis doesn't work (an extra 2 years of school and $100k in educational expense).

I dunno, 10:57, I think maybe the MBA is what made you write phrases like "interrelate to the issues facing your corporate clientele." I don't want any lawyers on my team talking about prioritizing action items. And if you think that an MBA gives you "prerequisite leadership qualities," you may want to look into what was in that Koolaid you drank.

I had an MBA prior to going to law school, and when I was going through interviews as a law student, it seemed about a 50/50 split between firms that embraced my business education, and firms that were skeptical of my motives in wanting to work for their firms when I already had a business education. The firm I eventually selected did pay a bonus for my MBA and gave me a year of advancement credit.

we mostly mock MBA/JDs, first because they've wasted an extra year of their life in school, and second because they invariably leave law as midlevel associates to go into business. Not a good recipe for bonus paying.

Do any firms out there assist with costs of continuing education (MBA or otherwise)? I've heard of corporations picking up the tab for employees' (or future employees') educational costs, but I haven't heard much in this arena about law firms.

10:57 - LOLZ. Are you for real or is this a joke? First off, can anyone really make the claim with a straight face that an MBA gives you "leadership qualities"?

Totes.

I read 10:57 as saying that if you have prerequisite leadership abilities (read: are already a leader) AND a JD/MBA, THEN you can go far. Not that you get one simply by having the other.

Keep laughing. The corporate world is growing angry and wary of our industry. Name one other profession in the world that is stupid enough to pay freshly minted professionals the same rate of pay, regardless of practice. The accounting and consulting firms are running circles around 99% of the world's law firms. Not because lawyers are inferior to MBAs, but because they realize they operate a business.

MBAs in law firms are going to prosper greatly because clients are insisting that the rules of engagement change. The profession is in for metamorphic change. And it can only help to have b-school training in one's hip pocket. This ain't a bloody "profession" as so many clueless, underproductive and overpaid partners like to insist. It's a bloody "business."

11:51: How many accounting firms have $2M ppp?

That's exactly what 10:57 said. Maybe 11:15 and 11:36 need to make "reading comprehension" one of their action items.

"The accounting and consulting firms are running circles around 99% of the world's law firms."

Evidence? Thank you.

I'm not saying that law firms aren't businesses, nor am I saying that having business smarts isn't a great benefit to our chosen profession (indeed, couldn't you make the same argument about any profession?). I am saying that the notion that an MBA automaticaly bespeaks business savvy is preposterous. Or for that matter, that someone with an MBA is any more qualified to run a law firm than anyone else with business smarts.

I can confirm that Latham gives a $20k JD/MBA bonus. But I can also confirm that it gives only a $35k clerkship bonus.

Clerkship Bonuses (as of 8/8/07)

The $50k Club (* = $50k/$70k):
2. Cravath*
3. SullCrom*
4. Skadden*
5. Davis Polk
6. STB
7. Cleary
9. Weil*
10. Covington (NY only)
11. Kirkland
12. Debevoise*
13. Paul Weiss*
19. OMM
20. White & Case
23. MoFo
29. Fried Frank
30. Ropes & Gray (NY only)*
31. Paul Hastings*
32. Wilkie Farr
33. Akin Gump (NY only)
35. Dewey Ballantine
52. LeBoeuf*
55. Cahill
NR. Patterson Belknap

The Vault 20 LIST OF SHAME:
1. Wachtell ($0)
8. Latham ($35k)
14. Shearman ($15k)
15. Wilmer ($35k)
16. Williams & Connolly ($35k)
17. Sidley ($35k)
18. Gibson ($35k)

Come on - I don't buy for a second that anyone getting a JD/MBA is looking for a long term career in Biglaw. Talking about how much it will help you understand the business of a law firm, or whether its worth the extra ONE year for lateral hiring totally misses the point.

JD/MBAs are going to get a couple years of law firm training, and then have opportunities in finance that they couldn't have (or at least not until several years down the line) with only an MBA. It's no secret that law firms don't like JD/MBAs for exactly this reason - but ibanks and hedge funds LOVE em.

So while most of you are getting 10% raises per annum and debating the attractiveness of JD/MBAs to LAW FIRMS, those kids are making moves...and twice what you make.

Anyone know if you can do a part-time MBA while you're clerking in federal court??

i'm a JD/CPA.
Do you think most firms will look positively on this? And if so in practice groups other than tax?
thanks

10:57 should have spent that extra year learning how to write in plain English, rather than picking up an MBA.

Regarding the intro sentence, does it really take an MBA to know that an associate is going to be p.o'd about getting work at 5:00 p.m. that's due the next day? C'mon, they do that on purpose and enjoy watching.

What many posters here fail to realize is that some firms, particularly those with large, "Wall Street"-centric practices, may hire MBA/JDs exactly BECAUSE they will leave as midlevels for investment banking. If they are leaving on excellent terms, they may be likely to give business to their former law firms, or the partners with which they used to work. At the firm where I work (practice area is structured finance), nearly every partner gets at least some of their business from former associates/colleagues who have "crossed over". For some of those partners, especially junior ones, nearly ALL of their business comes from associates with whom they once worked.

How do you people think partners get their clients, anyway?

What about other degrees? For example I have a Master of Arts degree in International Relations from NYU. Just curious.

Enough back and forth already about the merits of actually getting a JD/MBA. I wan't to know what kind of bonus opportunities exist for the dual degree...

In other words, please post known bonus amounts.

Do judicial clerks who are also JD/MBAs receive two bonuses or one?

12:20: I considered it, but decided that it would be way too difficult, scheduling issues, etc. As far as I know, though, there is no bar against it, ethics rules or otherwise.

I used to think that JD/MBAs were useless. The two degrees lead you into totally different careers. With a JD you become an associate at a law firm and with an MBA you become a consultant, an associate at an investment bank or something else in business. You only need one degree or the other to get these jobs. You don't need both for any of them.

But if you become an associate at a law firm, and you decide after two years that you hate it and you never want to anything remotely similar ever again, having an MBA would give you a lot of flexibility. It's only one more year of grad school.

Mitt Romney has a JD/MBA, and he's doing great!

Skadden gives a year of seniority for having a MBA. If you clerk, you come in as a 3rd year.

Also, the Duke Law website has a page listing some of the law firms that pay bonuses and/or give seniority for having an MBA, but I am too lazy to find the link.

http://mbaa.fuqua.duke.edu/jdmba/jdmba/JDMBABonuses.htm

I am in the process of earning an LL.M. in Tax and my firm is not paying for it.

Is this unusual? Do most firms pay for their tax or estates attorneys to get LL.M.s?

I'm a JD/MBA/LLM in Tax/CPA (the JD with honors and MBA from top 10 schools and the BBA in Accting with honors from a top 20 school). I left the law firm after 1-1/2 years to go in-house to go to a Fortune 250 company because they would pay for the MBA at night from U of Chicago and because the big law firm immediately thought I was suspect because I wanted it). I also got the LLM in Tax at night paid for by another Fortune 250 company.

I'm now the GC at a large, multi-national private company, although I've previously practiced corp/securities/M&A and international/transnational law at two other Fortune 250 companies and overseen IP and managed litigation.

Bottom line: If you want to go in-house, having a MBA gives you a great advantage as a candidate and when you're working in the company because you understand concepts that you otherwise wouldn't. And having a CPA (or an accounting degree) is great to understanding what's going on with the business. The CPA is a particularly big help if you're practicing securities or corporate law in a company, especially in these SOX days.

That's a great link for JD/MBA bonus and credit info. So I second 12:47 - What about other joint degrees?

DLA Piper offers full tuition to associates who pursue an MBA, but it's not for everyone -- there is an application process and I believe applicants have to demonstrate why the MBA will be beneficial to the firm and your practice. My understanding is you have to have been with the firm already and the approval process is competitive. It essentially is geared to be given to people who have exhibited a strong likelihood to remain with the firm. Also, you continue working while you are in school -- at a somewhat reduced level, but I've heard it's not reduced that much. So it's probably not for the faint of heart (and not for someone who is looking to pick up an MBA so he can get a new job). Recent people who've gone through the program went to Northwestern (Kellog) and Columbia and are still with the firm.

I have had an MBA for 14 years in addition to being licensed in 3 states. I am a former defense litigator with 10+ years experience, who now works in-house.

I can truthfully say that my MBA is worth nothing as far as additional compensation, but I guess it looks good on a resume (and to prospective employers).

I can't really say an MBA increases "worth" in litigation, unless it is heavily-oriented business / corporate litigation.

Agree with 12:33 about dump and runs. Sometimes dump and runs are unavoidable. Most of the time they are due to the total lack of thought partners give to managing associate work on their projects. Law firms need something to help them learn to better manage work flow. I don't think more MBAs will help the problem though. The guy I used to work for was the worst, and he was a JD/MBA.

I have a two-year MBA and a three-year JD from separate institutions. If you're doing M & A work and/or are looking to go in-house, it's enormously useful. If not, it's good for bragging rights and client development (i.e., alumni group mixers and impressing the client if your practice brings you into contact with upper management), but absolutely nothing else. Am I sad I did it? No; it made me a better JD student and gave me some time to think about what I wanted out of my career before I got too far into it. But I doubt I would do it again with the benefit of hindsight.

True that MBA students are not as smart as law students?

What about credit for an LL.M? I know that some firms count it as a year on the partnership track, but others don't. Also, LL.M in tax is treated differently than other LL.Ms. What gives?

03:51 - since you got your mba first then did your jd (6 years), were you eligible for a bonus?

I've heard that most firms only give bonuses to joint jd/mba's (4-year). My guess is that the rationale for such a policy is that firms want to avoid giving bonuses for 2nd tier bschools.

Oh yeah, accounting firms are just a-runnin' circles around law firms. Andersen (oops, I mean PWC), E&Y and Deloitte are just killing Cravath, S&C and Skadden. It's like the rings of Saturn out here.

Are you crazy? The revenue per consultant at Mck -- the mremier MC firm -- is only $450k! They're competing w/ Troutman and Sanders ($441k rev per lawyer).

Law firms can afford to be managed suboptimally. The ABA acts as a great barrier to entry and quasi collusive arrangement. And swingin' d**k can be a consultant.

Can you also ask about LLM's (not for non-US lawyers so much, but for specialties, e.g., tax, corporate, etc.) Thanks!

Can you also ask about LLM's (not for non-US lawyers so much, but for specialties, e.g., tax, corporate, etc.) Thanks!

12:36 is nuts. Junior associates who go into banking do not new clients make. These are long-standing relationships the big Wall Street firms (law and banking) have had with each other for decades. Not to mention that such decisions are made at much higher levels. Though I agree that a good working relationship w/ ex-associates now doing the grunt work at the bank/client is always a plus in terms of maintaining that relationship and facilitating daily work.

11:14... Are you serious when you say that associates "do not new clients make"? A JD/MBA leaving after practicing for 3 years, especially assuming a couple years of pre-JD/MBA business experience, is likely to come in as a 3rd year associate (a one year demotion). Sometimes the lateral may enter on par... A junior VP or senior associate at an investment bank is more likely to deal with partners at the law firm side and will have some say on who appears competent and who is not. Alternatively, a JD/MBA may enter as in-house counsel and again have a direct impact on what firms are brought to handle what matters. If you think these positions are irrelevant to making new clients you are simply reinforcing the general perception that lawyers have poor business sense and a lack of non-legal COMMON sense. MBA programs do a much better job at screening for this (and generally require better all-round performance on standardized tests... quantitative AND verbal). You would do well in getting an MBA IF you could get into a decent program.

I am a current corporate 1L at NYC Biglaw. What are my chances if I want to forego law completely and move into I-banking? Is there any chance I can come in as an associate at a major I-bank after doing 2 years at Biglaw, or will I have to start off as an analyst?

goodwin procter gives out bonuses for lawyers with MBAs

I find it amusing how emotional some straight JDs get about dissing out the JD/MBA.

There are valid reasons for and against the combo., but some people skip the reasoning and go straight into emotional attack mode.

Relax. It is going to be OK that you didn't get an MBA. Either way, you can make lots of money and learn many great things along the way.