re: first

Way to take one for the team. Thanks.

Woodcock in Philadelphia raised to 145 for first years effective Jan 1, 2008. The rest of the years are very compressed. No sure why they are being so cheap when the partners supposedly are saving so much money in tax breaks by relocating across town. They got the same deal dechert got.

I have to say, Lat, that is one proper graphic - makes me proud to be in IP. I'm pretty sure I saw that robot on an episode of Twilight Zone when I was a wee lad. Seems to have incurred something of a weight problem in the interim.

What about the California IP firms? Fish, Knobbe, Finnegan...

Don't some firms pay patent lawyers above the lock-step? I think J&G did this before going under. Do other associates get upset if their IP classmates make more? Just curious.

Don't some firms pay patent lawyers above the lock-step? I think J&G did this before going under. Do other associates get upset if their IP classmates make more? Just curious.

What can one expect to make if they have passed the patent bar? What are good shops in CA? Who is hiring? What is the starting salary/bonus situation like?

Prosecution or litigation (or both) is fine with me.

Thanks.

Several IP firms in NYC that used to be lockstep a couple years ago are still at 125 and/or 145. My boutique IP shop has 2 partners for every associate, so I don't see the salary going up any time soon. Anyone know of vacancies at 160 IP shops?

I think there is a story here. Some NY IP shops paid above market before the latest raise. Now they are at or below market. Will any of these shops raise to stay above market?

J&G did not pay patent attorneys more, at least not in my (non-Texas) office.

I call for an investigation, ATL! IP lawyers worked twice as hard as other lawyers in undergrad, generally majoring in pre-med/biological sciences, and most of us even went to bio-sciences grad schools before law school. If anything, we should consistently be paid above market...not lag behind! I say 2 paychecks for IP lawyers: one for science knowledge and one for legal!

Woodcock? Did you make that up? Is it unprofessional to say you work for Woodcock?

What is MBHB bonus structure? Is it based on hours over goal, is cut time a factor?

11:45
Fish & Finn. in CA are at mkt rate in all offices (160k). As for Knobbe, Ive heard they are going up but can't confirm. Can anyone confirm?

IP Mutiny - get a real undergrad degree before you demand a raise. Bio? You better have a PhD...

12:17...a PhD is not an undergrad degree dumba$$

Since you brought it up, my undergrad major was Organic Chem, which is a bio-science (which I'm sure you know, unless you lost brain cells majoring in poetry and beer pong). My post grad degree was an MD, so no PhD was needed.

No I do not work for Woodcock; I've moved on to Steelcock

12:19 - You're right, a PhD is not an undergrad degree, but I never said it was. I just said he better get a real one - the implication being that bio does not qualify. Because it's a lesser undergrad degree, I further asserted he better have a PhD to go with before he hops on his high horse.

And 12:23 - my undergrad was EE.

I'm glad that you believe that your EE degree rivals one in Orgo, as well as an MD. Congrats, kiddo. You must be a pleasure to work with!

One more thing, before you respond with links to pictures of yourself with your diploma and T-square or whatever tools EE people use: no one likes a nerdfight. Can we please get back on topic and get IP shops to raise consistently?!

Nothing good can come from this infighting among us geeks. We must form a united front of nerds if we want to see any meaningful change. Nobody will listen to an unruly bunch of quibbling pocket protectors.

All Townsend offices are at $160K and are hiring.

"Woodcock? Did you make that up? Is it unprofessional to say you work for Woodcock?"

of course not. however, it is unprofessional to say you work for Harness, Dickey, and Pierce. even if you do, in fact, work for HDP.

If you want to do patent litigation, its better not to work for an "IP firm." Go for a big general firm, i.e. Latham, Kirkland, Weil. However these big firms don't do much, if any, prosecution.

I know that some of the firms in the midwest (e.g., shook hardy and bacon; bryan cave) pay a premium for patent attorneys above the lock step - at least for first years.

12:06: MBHB's bonus structure is somewhat arbitrary, but it is based on meeting minimum hours. Generally, it is about $5,000 to every 100 hours over. But the salary lock-step is pretty nice.

Also, the fact that some of us chose hard science undergrads/grads/post-docs/whatever is largely fortunate for us. Rather than boast of degrees, it's better to let the market do the talking. Which it is now. Loudly.

Does anyone have any opinion on Finnegan Henderson. Only IP, but hardly a boutique. Is it difficult to get a position there? I hear their Cali office is nice and possibly growing. Any opinions?

poo

J&G did give patent lawyers 10k over lock step in TX.

I'm an EE considering Patent Law. Are there places that pay less (say $120k) in return for billable hour requirements of around 1600? I'm much more concerned about quality of life than amount paid.

Too many articles focus on the salary and not on quality of life at the firm.

622...
According to NALP Knobbe Martens pays 140k (according to Feb. 2007 NALP) for 1700 hours.

Thanks anon- How do I search for other firms with low billable hours?

I don't think the IP guys should be making above market. 160? Sure, but the advantage to having a technical degree is that firms are willing to slide on your gpa a little bit to get you in the door.

For example, I'm a middle of the road student at a tier 2 school, and I'm racking up interviews because of my EE degree from a good undergraduate institution. People in my law school class with similar grades and liberal arts backgrounds aren't able to touch these firms. That's the difference.

However, if someone went to MIT and Harvard law, you could probably make the case that they're worth above market, but hey, that's what discretionary bonuses are for, right?

I agree. I am a middle-of-the-class student (no studying, no reading, cram for the finals, and rely on my wits) at a tier 3 school in the evening program. My top undergraduate engineering degree got me a job as a tech. spec at a nice midsize Boston firm while I am in school. They pay my entire tuition and have a lower (1600) billable requirement for tech. specs than associates. The nice thing about IP prosecution work is that the workflow is steady and predictable. Also, the technology is interesting and my colleagues like what they are doing.

I've heard that Banner & Witcoff will be raising to 165k? Has this happened yet?

I seriously doubt Banner & Witcoff is raising to $165k. I used to work there
as an associate and there were always behind the curve when it came to salary. Perhaps at the 2000 mark you get "deferred compensation" that brings you to $165k. But that means you base would be $145-150k. Just my $0.02.

I seriously doubt Banner & Witcoff is raising to $165k. I used to work there
as an associate and there were always behind the curve when it came to salary. Perhaps at the 2000 mark you get "deferred compensation" that brings you to $165k. But that means your base would be $145-150k. Just my $0.02.

I heard today that they have raised to $165, but, as noted, that is most likely not a base, but a post-bonus number.

Regarding lower pay and lower hourly requirements, I would look to smaller markets (e.g., Portland). The reason most folks head to smaller markets to do IP work is precisely for the lower hourly requirements. However, as one working at a Chicago boutique, I don't think the hourly commitment is bad at all. And I have a family (wife and son).

9:43-

That is really dumb. The reason patent attorneys make more is that there is less supply. The work is valuable to companies and the PTO requirements for becoming licensed prevent most people from doing the work. Low supply + high demand = higher salaries.

Re: Finnegan - if you can get a job at Finnegan Henderson or Fish & Richardson, either one will make your career - those two firms are pretty far ahead of everybody else. I did a callback w/ Fish though and I must say that I didn't connect with anybody there AT ALL!! I guess you could say they were nerds, but I'm pretty much a nerd too....I'd say it's more that they didn't have any social skills.

If you're looking for a lifestyle firm, Knobbe Martens is about as good as it gets. Their requirement is 7 hrs billed per day (which is probably 9 hoursish worked). They have lots of other lifestyle-esque things about them, but their pay is less than market...something like 140 or 145. It's actually very good when looking at pay per hour....however as a senior associate/junior partner their pay is supposed to be really bad - but I've heard that's changing soon.

Workman Nydegger up in Salt lake is an IP-only firm with about 70ish attorneys. You don't hear much about them but they have some good clients (e.g. Microsoft & they just won $120M for Finisar a year ago). They just bumped up to $130k which is ~$270k in NY and ~$200k in Orange County (where Knobbe is based). WN's billables are 1920 but realistically more like 2100. High compared to Knobbe, but low compared to biglaw.

SA at Knobbe a couple years ago. Remember, it is not billable hours but billed. Some partners are notorious for cutting time, which makes it hard to get billed hours. No bonus, but you must get the work done for the clients. If you don't rock the boat you make partner in 5 years which can be cool, but lots of partners and some slackers as partners.

I have friends in SLC who say Workman is really working their attorneys hard. Bickering in partnership ranks, yada yada. But SLC is a great place to live.

Townsend has a reduced billable track. Less hours, less pay.

Any thoughts on Sughrue Mion in DC?