That is complete crap that K&S raised to $160k in Houston and made it effective 8/1/07 but made their Atlanta raise effective 1/1/08. K&S, you are an example of the main reason so many Atlanta associates are so pissed!

First of all, there are firms in Atlanta that pay $160k as well, you should be matching them if you are really committed to getting top tier talent to best serve your clients. Second, how much did you save by screwing your Atlanta associates for a few extra months? There was no good reason not to make the raise in Atlanta effective 8/1/07.

Is Laurie Lin in a wgwag? Or just ambiguous surname? Someone said this was her pic? Anyone got more info on her???

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4204/4049/320/110_1035.jpg

The "news" you received about Hunton is a hoax. Hunton has NOT raised to $160k in D.C.; you were not provided a copy of the alleged memo that is "floating around" for the simple reason that no such memo has been issued.

Hunton's own website still lists compensation in D.C. for starting associates at $145k.

3:30: Hunton's NALP form indicates a starting salary of $160,000 for its Washington, DC office (although they still pay the summer associates at the old, $2800/week rate).

Go here: http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

Enter Hunton, select the D.C. office, and scroll down to "Compensation and Employment Data."

What was the K&S scale in Houston before it went to 160?

Given that there has been no announcement as to other associates, is 1st year compensation now greater than / equal to that of later classes?

Allen Matkins S.F. also pays for parking.

Allen Matkins is a TTT regional firm, like Kliendinst, Buchalter Nemer, Luce Forward, Gordon & Rees, and Lewis Brisbois.

K&S Sucks!!, I think K&S is supremely confident that their "King of Atlanta" image will pull them through a 4-month delay in raises on ATL associates v. HOU associates, and a similar delay v. other ATL shops.

Having interviewed in (but not gone to) ATL with K&S and others, I was struck at how much everyone in that town has a K&S complex. A&B is up there, but the people who want to be with the King are not going to jump ship over a 4-month delay, and K&S knows it.

It may suck if you're a K&S associate (and I assume you are), but you're not quitting over it.

Point K&S partners.

K&S -- that is some serious WTF right there. Way to give your Atlanta associates a totally unnecessary slap in the face. There is zero justification for different effective dates for the raises.

Can anyone provide an updated DC list of shame? Any firms remaining on this list deserve to be utterly humiliated before OCI begins, given that they are now behind Texas firms and on par with the big firms in ATL.

3:37p.m. -- "Hunton's NALP form indicates a starting salary of $160,000 for its Washington, DC office (although they still pay the summer associates at the old, $2800/week rate)."

I don't know where NALP is getting its "information," but it isn't from any memo circulated at Hunton in D.C. THAT I can promise you.

Jimbo Rich...

I'm fairly certain that NALP didn't obtain the information they used to update their Hunton DC profile from ATL, so the information must have come from somewhere relatively reputable.

I'll admit that your vigorous opposition to this news makes me think that you may be in the employ of H&W DC (or elsewhere). If that is the case, then I will defer to you.

Otherwise, I have personally been informed by a H&W senior lawyer that DC 1st year salaries were increased to 160k. If he's wrong, he's wrong. But I tend to believe him, and Lat, before a random commenter.

8:44 p.m. -- Fair enough. As a random (and anonymous) commenter, I recognize that nobody need take what I'm asserting at face value.

I'll put it this way; I hope your "H&W senior lawyer" source knows what he's talking about, and the absence of a verifying memo will soon be remedied. For I find it curious (even given Hunton's communicative abilities) that the firm would bite the bullet, raise to $160k in D.C., and then hide that particular light under a bushel.

I must agree with Jimbo. Hunton hasn't historically been silent about these kinds of things. My guess is that NALP is mistaken or, less likely, that they were given some premature information that hasn't been formally announced yet.

6:59 -- Justification? How about the fact that in Houston K&S is a small office and must follow the lead of the big firms that made their salary increase effective immediately, while in Atlanta A&B set the precedent for delaying the pay increase until Jan. 1. It's the market, dummy.

What a bunch of greedy self-absorbed fucks. It is your true calling in life to herd this sorry lot, David Lat? I pity you.

4:50; you must be in NY and have never touched real estate. AM is a real estate boutique on steroids. It has over 240 attorneys all in California and almost all in real estate. AM (not Latham, not Sidley, and not Gibson Dunn) does all of the big real deals in the West (oh wait, you don't own a car and have never left Manhattan). They are not aspiring to be a national firm like Bryan Cave, Snell or Luce; but rather are dominating real estate in CA. Thanks for your informed input.

You should post a thread on relocation expenses. What firms pay for brokerage fees, and so forth. What firms offer salary advances? Everyone knows that NYC rents are steadily rising while salaries are on par with the Texas market and that the south enjoys a lower cost of living so why has NY firms not raised above 160K?

6:59 -- Justification? How about the fact that in Houston K&S is a small office and must follow the lead of the big firms that made their salary increase effective immediately, while in Atlanta A&B set the precedent for delaying the pay increase until Jan. 1. It's the market, dummy.

=====================

Small? It's over 100 lawyers. And your "precedent" is highly selective. Sure, A&B went effective 1/08, but several Atlanta firms did not. Hunton has been paying $145 for months.

I believe K&S Atlanta is the only office of an AmLaw 30 firm that will not have raised salaries in 2007. The. Only. One. Practicing at K&S Atlanta is now truly a badge of distinction.

This is another screw-job, plain and simple. Will I leave over it? Maybe not. Inertia and all that. But had I known this years ago, I would not be here now. And I will never have any role in attempting to convince someone to come here ever again.

K&S Atlanta has reached a new all-time low. Why hang on to a couple thousand dollars and totally screw your Atlanta associates? Hint: You already have an image problem guys. See AmLaw survey in which your associates told you you that there are only 6 crappier law firms in the entire country. It's like you want to be last. Well, come next year, you will be. Unless, of course, the sub-par people who stick around and put up with this crap are so happy to have a job that they sing your praises. Just dumb.

When looking at the salary charts, does one become a second year associate at the end of the calendar year they started in or after they've been with the firm for one year?

9:28 -- you say "I believe K&S Atlanta is the only office of an AmLaw 30 firm that will not have raised salaries in 2007."

This is wrong. K&S Atlanta raised salaries earlier this year. We are now debating a second salary increase in the same calendar year. Please keep up.

This is wrong. K&S Atlanta raised salaries earlier this year. We are now debating a second salary increase in the same calendar year. Please keep up.

======================

Well that's right, forgive me if I forgot all about the earlier $15k raise. The issue, of course, is that the most recent wave of market increases has reached every Am Law 30 firm but the Atlanta office of K&S.

That said, your post is also wrong. The raise is not being "debated." It's been announced. The issue is why is Houston's raise effective 5 months before Atlanta's?

If you are going to defend paying Houston associates thousands more, and months ahead of Atlanta, please do so on the merits (if any). Quibbling about these little details is getting you nowhere.

That K&S and other Atlanta firms raised in April (after NYC went to 160) and that subsequent raises have caused the firm to have to raise again (because they tried to low-ball the first time around)matters not. Every firm that has raised has made their raise effective IN THIS CALENDAR YEAR. While K&S's first "raise" (to 130) was effective immediately, the second (to 145) was not. So the firm gets to screw associates because it low-balled the first raise and national markets have since exposed that low-balling?

12:06 -- good points. But I note that even this:

"While K&S's first "raise" (to 130) was effective immediately, the second (to 145) was not."

is not accurate. That raise was announced in early Feb, and was effective March 1, even though the DC office's raise was retroactive to Jan. 1. So you see, there is a long history of giving the short stick to Atlanta.

12:13 is correct--K&S Atlanta even shafted associates on the timing of the first (low-ball) raise.

What's the excuse for that? Still all shook up about having raised to 115 a couple years earlier? Give me a break.

Ok, what firms in Atlanta are paying $160k? That's news to me.

Dow Lohnes and Sciff Hardin

How many associates does Schiff Hardin have in Atlanta -- more than 10?

Wow . . . Feels pretty good to be a 5th year at K&S Atlanta about now. Running deals, trying cases, typically roaming the country sleeping in hotel rooms away from family, all to be paid less than Johny Know Nothing first year in Houston. Oh, he was "top 10%" at University of Texas though - I bet he can write a brilliant legal memo on the concept of traditional notions of fair play and substantial justice. Wait is that about jurisdiction or associate salaries?

Congrats to the Houston associates on their raise. I wish them well. But as of 9/1/07, unlicensed, freshly minted grads in Houston will be making more than 5th years in Atlanta. They may as well place that in the dictionary next to the word "outrageous."

3:56 -- Outrageous because you think you are worth more? Clue in -- Atlanta associates are dime a dozen. You can be easily replaced.

The only thing outrageous is the gaul of you incompetent southern lawyers thinking you are in a big city - if you really had any sense you'd have gone to NY or LA. Your cost of living is a good 25% lower (you can buy a parking space in Manhattan for the same price as a 2000 sqft house in Atlanta) and all you do is bitch and moan when you should be billing.

Cost of Living is not a factor in compensation. Cost of Labor is the only COL that any business looks at when determining salaries. You don't get raises because housing prices go up or down or gas prices fluctuate, you get raises because other companies in your city are paying more for people that do the kind of work that you do, period.

interesting that H&W raised to the same salary for their DC and their Nova offices. There is one AmLaw 100 firm that pays drastically different salaries for the two offices that are about 15 minutes apart. Any guesses as to which firm?

7:51 - But what about GOOD Atlanta associates? In my experience, good associates, no matter where you practice, are not a dime a dozen. I agree that as a general matter average associates in Atlanta do not have much market leverage, but good ones are in demand, giving them leverage. They make your life as a partner easier, and keep your clients happy. It is therefore in the firm's and client's best interests to keep them around. Money is not necessarily the only way to keep the good associates around. The good possibility of partnership and/or a reasonable work/life balance are options at some places. But if it is not an option at your shop, money is really what you are left with to keep them around. If money is the controlling factor, well, they will go where the money is, I would believe. And another law firm is not the only place where the money is, as there is a lot of money for JDs with personality to make in other industries, of course.

Atlanta List of Shame:

Sutherland Asbill
Kilpatrick Stockton
Morris Manning
McKenna Long
Arnall Golden
Smith Gambrell
Powell Goldstein
Paul Hastings***
Jones Day
Holland + Knight
Womble Carlyle
Nelson Mullins
Greenberg
Carlton Fields
DLA

*** Rumor that they raised first years to $145k a la K&S... anyone confirm?

There is no over-supply of associates in Atlanta. In fact, there several articles and studies out now demostrating that there is a shortage of qualified associates and law students given the numbers big firms expect to hire over the next few years and the credentials they require.

My guess is...Reed Smith. I have never heard one good thing about that firm (in terms of management not lawyers).

Generally, an associate's class year changes (from first-year to second-year, etc.) at the beginning of the firm's fiscal year. When I was at a firm, this was February 1, so first-years switched to second-years about a year and a half after starting with the firm.

DC List of Shame:

Holland and Knight (145,000) (Lowest Mid-Level Associate Satisfaction for the Region)

Hunton did raise in DC. No clue why they have not updated the website, but it is true.

Not sure how someone legitimately compares Allen Matkins (280 attys, salary $160k, PPP $800k) to joke firms like Klinedinst (salary $70k/yr, PPP $124k) or Lewis Brisbois (salary $135k/yr, PPP $245k).

Allen Matkins' competitors are the Sheppard Mullins of the world; except in RE, where it dominates and competes directly with PH, OMM, LW, etc.

Admittedly their focus is real estate, but a friend there tells me that they are rapidly growing their litigation group, and are hiring laterals from the top national firms at an unprecedented level.

12:44, you're close. We remain tops in RE, and lit, like most other departments, is gaining ground.

Recent laterals have come from Mayer Brown, Gibson, Milbank, O'Melveny, and the U.S. Attorneys Office (sigh).

We've still got a ways to go, but the firm intends to compete, forcefully, with the most elite firms our market. The salary hike is simply further evidence of that.

AM Insider-

How's your bonus? I've heard that Allen Matkins' sucks terribly compared to the local top firms.

First years get $15k, $20-25k for Third Years. Don't know abot more senior classes, as I believe that is changing.

Allen Matkins is probably the best kept secret in LA biglaw. Such a better work environment than the bigger firms, and the same pay. Who could complain?

Large institutional clients in RE and Litigation, and an associate class whose make-up is improving all the time.

I wouldn't be surprised to see AM break the Vault 100 in the next few years. Something I doubt Sheppard will do, by the way, 12:44.

$15k? That puts AM at the middle of the pack, at best. I guess the $160k pay scale makes it bearable, if many competitors still pay $145.

I'm considering interviewing, though I'm told only top 10-15% need apply. How strictly is this enforced?

Thanks for the info.

The grade cut-off is strict for schools in the second tier (e.g. Loyola). For Boalt/USC/UCLA/Stanford (AM's largest feeders), you're looking at top 20-30% depending on the school. HLS and Yale grads likely need to worry even less...

$15k is really low, and most firms in LA are at $160k already.

Add in the very worrisome "associate class that is improving all the time" - as in, your superiors will suck and not be as smart as you. Yes, they'll have more experience, but do you want to be learning from the ground up from some mediocre attorney?

Look for a better deal, unless you want to work for a regional player in the bush leagues.

"Allen Matkins is probably the best kept secret in LA biglaw. Such a better work environment than the bigger firms, and the same pay. Who could complain?"

This is hilarious. Allen Matkins is, indeed, a REALLY well-kept secret: Nobody's heard of them. The only time I've ever encountered Allen Matkins was when I played their team in a lawyer's league basketball game once.

AM grows by laterals, not by bringing in juniors. If you start at AM, odds are good that your superiors will be far better than you, because they had top grades coming out of law school and started somewhere huge. They just had one too many partners at somewhere huge yell at them for not responding to that 3 AM Sunday morning email within 5 minutes and realized that they hated their lives, and AM told them it didn't have to be that way.

I think the "associate class that is improving all the time" is an issue at Allen Matkins. They have, as 2:16 rightly observes, recently brought in a significant number of laterals from the biggest national firms. Those laterals will have different ways of doing things, and may clash with their superiors.

At the same time, the new blood isn't limited to associates. A number of high-profile hires at the partner level are transforming the firm, presumably for the better.

At this point, Allen Matkins represents one of the *riskier* biglaw choices: associates will have greater longevity at the firm, and better partnership prospects, but will face a firm in transition from a respected (but not famous) regional player to a large firm that hasn't "made its bones."

Nonetheless, the firm remains attractive (and can thus enforce grade cut-offs that many similar firms could never even dream of) because it represents a firm in transition, where a driven associate might genuinely contribute to the firm's development.

i heard that a firm in nyc went to 185k for first years, as summers also got the bump on their paychecks. is this true?

3:56 -- Outrageous because you think you are worth more? Clue in -- Atlanta associates are dime a dozen. You can be easily replaced.

=====================

As opposed to associates in Houston? Give me a break.

So, enjoying your time at Munger? The haughtiness comes through loud and clear. I've worked in LA biglaw (some bigger, some smaller) for years, and have dealt with Allen Matkins as co-counsel or lender's counsel on countless large deals. They are very good attorneys, and I respect every Allen Matkins partner and associate with whom I've worked. I can only wish that some of my own junior associates were as capable as theirs.

I have been a civil servant in the federal world since law school, but I'm making the move to private practice soon. Mayer Brown (an office other than DC, NYC or Chicago) has thus far shown the most interest in my services, but I am very naive about big firm life. You could also say that I've become a bit spoiled by my cushy government hours. I would appreciate any insight on both Mayer Brown and what a newbie like me can expect as I move out into the real world. Am I just fresh meat for the grinder, or is there some semblance of hope for professional success and pesonal happiness?

I have been a civil servant in the federal world since law school, but I'm making the move to private practice soon. Mayer Brown (an office other than DC, NYC or Chicago) has thus far shown the most interest in my services, but I am very naive about big firm life. You could also say that I've become a bit spoiled by my cushy government hours. I would appreciate any insight on both Mayer Brown and what a newbie like me can expect as I move out into the real world. Am I just fresh meat for the grinder, or is there some semblance of hope for professional success and pesonal happiness?

I have been a civil servant in the federal world since law school, but I'm making the move to private practice soon. Mayer Brown (an office other than DC, NYC or Chicago) has thus far shown the most interest in my services, but I am very naive about big firm life. You could also say that I've become a bit spoiled by my cushy government hours. I would appreciate any insight on both Mayer Brown and what a newbie like me can expect as I move out into the real world. Am I just fresh meat for the grinder, or is there some semblance of hope for professional success and pesonal happiness?

Dude, wanna be associate, lay of with the "post" button, will ya?

your padding skills seem strong

sorry about the triple post. Your tax dollars at work on this wonderful gov't computer system.

wanna be -- the mistake/transitional issue that I have seen with a few government attorneys when they switch over to Biglaw is not really understanding how law firm culture works in terms of expectations and how partners go about communicating their expectations (in most cases, very poorly). For example, we had an ex-government mid-level at my firm who would turn down assignments just because she had enough work to keep her busy for a few days or if the new project would require her to work over a weekend or to work long hours the week before she went on vacation, etc. If she didn't have work to do, she just sat in her office without seeking anything out. She honestly seemed surprised when this behavior didn't meet the firm's expectations.

You sound like you are a lot more clued in to reality than the woman I am describing. I guess the best advice that I can give you is that Biglaw will likely be a more fast-paced, stressful environment than what you have encountered in the government, even ignoring the hours expectations. Due to client demands and the fact that many Biglaw attorneys are Type A, there is often a false sense of urgency attached to many Biglaw projects. I have several friends who have said even in light of all the recent Biglaw salary increases that it was worth it to leave Biglaw for a government job, because they actually have a life and hobbies, etc. I think that Mayer Brown would be more demanding than some Biglaw firms, but not based on my personal experience -- just word of mouth and some of the prior threads on ATL.

How can anyone consider going TO Mayer Brown at a time when they are firing partners and associates are fleeing the firm?

2:12 sounds bitter because a bunch of associates at another firm he has never heard of are getting paid more (or slightly less), work less, work on bigger deal, and enjoy their jobs more than he does.

3:01:

Wrong member of the good L.A. area midsized crowd.

I wouldn't compare Allen Matkins unfavorably to Munger, anyway- Allen Matkins, though being an also-ran in terms of talent, etc., manages to pull in a higher PPP than Munger, the land of geniuses and aspergers sufferers.

Both firms suck. Just in different ways.

Allen Matkins insiders sure are sensitive about their firm, aren't they?

A little insecure, guys?

1:58 (Munger Dude)? It was I who called you out - and no, I am not an AM associate. Alas, I work for one of your direct competitors. Some might say your ONLY direct competitors. Irelliaze you may not know who I'm referencing, but I'm sure you're smart enough to figure it out.

I come to AM's defense because I know them. Worked with/against some of them, work right by 'em (geographically), and my experiences with them have been uniformly positive. I don't think any LA biglaw attorney with a realistic view of the market would consider AM an "also ran." They are a niche player, to be sure, but they represent large national clients, and recruit from the same pool of talent as we.

4:35 is right, of course. It appears they DO work less, or at least enjoy their jobs more than associates at other firms. A first year associate joining AM at $160,000/yr is really quite fortunate.

I don't think Allen Matkins' PPP are the same as Munger - wasn't Munger in the $1 mil plus range?

Don't get me wrong, Munger Dude is a douche, but Allen Matkins is a Loeb, Greenberg, Alschuler, Sheppard competitor in all but real estate. Not saying that is bad. Wish my firm were that respectable. They aren't Munger though. Too bad, maybe there would be less Munger Dudes.

I am so bored with your Allen Matkins debate. I live/work in LA. Let me make it clear.

Allen Matkins is one of the best mid-size firms in California. 300 attorneys is not a large firm. They are well respected, earn tons of money, and have first tier clients. But, again, they are not a large firm.

Munger is one of the best mid-size firms in the country. It is a lit-centered firm, as opposed to Allen Matkins' longstanding real estate specialty.

Between Allen Matkins and Munger, for the same salary and bonus, the "quality of life" crew will choose Allen Matkins, and the "prestige" crew will choose Munger.

Drop it already. Nobody cares.

What about the "I just wanna get paid more than my friend" crew?

SKADDEN!!!!!

Have Alston or Sutherland raised to 160 in DC?

Alston has NOT raised to 160 in DC. They're one of the last firms still at 145.

What is all this Alston posting about? Don't you people see that this tread is devoted to the discussion of where Allen Matkins belongs in the heirarchy of California firms?

Of course, for those who can read the AmLaw 200, it is fairly clear that Allen Matkins is a top California firm.

Greedy South is reporting that Jones Day in Atlanta announced $150k for first years with a new merit based bonus plan effective 1/1/08. No information about compression or senior associate compensation.

To "Wanna Be":

Mayer Brown has an excellent reputation for its government practice group, and every lawyer I've met is high-quality. However, the firm is in a time of major (and very public) transition, and I would suggest that you do your homework (read the news, the blogs, and ATL posts, among other things) before you accept an offer here. See, e.g. Anonymous at 4:30. Think carefully about what you want your life to be like.

The hours and expectations here are largely in line with other Biglaw firms. But there are other issues to consider (assuming you are OK with Biglaw lifestyle issues). I would suggest after you do your homework, you look each associate you meet in the eye (when the office door is closed) and ask them, "If you were in my shoes, would you accept an offer to come and work here?" The responses you hear and see may be very revealing.

Best of luck with your transition.

-A Mayer Associate

I don't know what Jimbo is talking about... Hunton clearly states on their website that the starting pay is $160 in D.C. and NY and $145 everywhere else.