Should have gone to a real firm.

How about no-interview factories?

Patton Boggs in DC didn't give offers to half of their summer associates.

I'd be interested to hear about "no offer" factories, but I would be equally up for hearing about any "no offers," even if just one or two, with the firm specified and, if available, the reason for the "no offer."

Venable in DC pulled this last summer, and informed those who did not get offers via e-mail.

I'd like to hear about the "shady stuff" that occurred.

For real, I want to hear the dirty little stories as well.

My firm only hired 50%, but then again, there were only two of us. HAHAHAHA. To the victor goes the spoils.

4:14: if you are practicing "law" in a firm that hires only 2 summer associates, well son let me break it to you - you're not really practicing law and what you have can hardly be claimed to be a legal "job."

Count Kilpatrick Stockton among those no-offer factories...

Which Kilpatrick Office? Or was it firm wide?

Kilpatrick Atlanta gives a lot of soft offers, which aren't as bad.

Ricky, I'm awfully tired of you impersonating a Big Lawyer. Your ignorance proves time and again that you are utterly clueless about BigLaw. There are many top firms that have satellite offices that might only hire one or two SAs a summer. Not every branch office supports huge summer classes. The firm is not less top notch because it has smaller offices scattered around. Please get back to getting ready for interviews. Maybe this year you'll make it . . .

Doesn't Kilpatrick Atlanta give "guaranteed offers" to all summer associates (they used to)? If so, that is probably why they have to "soft offer" a number of SAs.

1. Patton Boggs
2. Venable
3. Kilpatrick Stockton
4. Some crappy IP firm in Chicago
5. ?

For instance, perhaps said individual was a summer at S&C in Palo Alto.
Note only two Summer Associates:
http://nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_results.asp

Gosh, what a TTT firm! Oh wait . . .

Kirkland DC gave offers to 100% of their summers.

King and Spalding Houston no-offered a bunch of top school kids who ostensibly did good work.

Apparently they over hired

Not Kirkland Chicago, though, apparently!

Pillsbury Winthrop NoVa gave out several no-offers. Not sure about the other offices, but I think the too-many-summers not-enough-slots problem permeated all offices.

1. Patton Boggs (DC)
2. Venable (DC)
3. Kilpatrick Stockton (DC)
4. Some crappy IP firm in Chicago
5. King & Spalding (Houston)
6. ?

A couple of summers ago Ward & Smith in North Carolina screwed ALL of their summers when they hired their biggest summer class in years (7 or 8, it is a small town) and "no offered" everyone. When potential summers asked about the large size of the class, they were told that if they did a good job and "fit in" they had nothing to worry about and were assured that the firm only hired based on defined needs and could take up to the all of them. The result was that no one got an offer and they said "Sorry we overestimated our needs". They did not even offer to help write recommendation letters for them. All people were very competent. Unfortunately some did not split with another firm. Pretty unprofessional on the firm's part.

Any firm that gives no-offers because it over estimated its hiring needs deserves to be on a special "extra shame" list.

I heard about King & Spaulding Houston as well. A friend of mine got no-offered there along with a few other summers who were told they all did good work.

1. Patton Boggs (DC)
2. Venable (DC)
3. Kilpatrick Stockton (DC)
4. Some crappy IP firm in Chicago
5. King & Spalding (Houston)
6. Pillsbury Winthrop (NoVa)
7. ?

What's up with DC/NoVa?

Does anyone know of or personally have had their offers suspended/pulled similar to IBanking analyst offers?

If you're unaware, lots of banks are "suspending" the offers given to their incoming analyst class so they don't have a class full of people with nothing to do. I'm wondering if any law firms have either told any incoming first years that they don't need them, or have pushed back their starting dates because they don't have the work right now

1. Patton Boggs (DC)
2. Venable (DC)
3. Kilpatrick Stockton (DC)
4. Some crappy IP firm in Chicago
5. King & Spalding (Houston)
6. Pillsbury Winthrop (NoVa)
7. Some crappy firm in NC
8. ?

This is obviously off topic, but this thread has me wondering:

If you received a gift during the winter preceding your 2L summer (from the firm), and you received and accepted an offer to return after graduation, did you receive a give during your 3L winter?

Apparently Baker Botts in Houston no offered a bunch of Summers for bad 2L grades.

Watt Tieder (NoVa) gave out a lot of no offers in 2005. Most summers had no idea it was coming.

Skadden Chicago gave offers to everyone in their summer class.

Baker Hostetler no-offered 2 out of 3 2L summer associates in one of their offices this year.

everyone is interested

Either there are no University of Chicago students at Skadden or Kirkland (Chicago), or they make offers before one's summer is over. (Or do they announce that "everyone is getting an offer"?)

I was a summer at Harris Beach in Rochester, NY a couple of years ago. About 200 lawyers firm-wide, hired a summer class of three, and no-offered everybody because they "overestimated their needs." All very competent; I went on to clerk for a federal court of appeals judge and the other two landed jobs with Harter Secrest & Emery and Nixon Peabody in Rochester.

So everyone, in the end, was indeed a winner...

indeed, everyone's a winner at Nixon Pea-bo-dy

Which Baker Hostetler Office? Cleveland and DC gave offers to everyone.

worst part is, who is going to hire you as a 3L?

L2L will love this. I actually summered and then they told me they don't usually hire from my school. This was after they led me to believe I had nothing to worry about all summer.

I would like to hear of any success stories of 2Ls that got no offered.

Baker Hostetler no offered 2 out of 4 summers in one office.

Baker and McDonald's?

Fragomen Del Rey Bernsen & Loewy AGAIN made 50% no-offers...last year 4/9

Fragomen doesn't work like most law firms though, so I'm not sure they really count. They basically just process immigration docs more than anything, only 20 partners, but PPP is over $2.0MM, associates are nothing to them, it's all about the processing equipment.

Fraggle and Rock, LLP no offered four of its summers, and told the other three to go down in the hole.

5:16, that's a bummer, and doesn't say much for that firm. I don't know of any success stories (though I'm sure there are many), but were I in your shoes, I would change (intended) cities, and try to frame the issue as a change of heart on your part (as to where you want to live): "Well, I enjoyed working at that firm, and received praise all summer, but the powers-that-be caught wind of the fact that I actually have no intention of staying that city, because I really want to settle in (insert target firms' city here)."

Lots of people get hired as 3Ls. I'm a 2002 graduate and a lot of my class was no offered (or offer rescinded). Most ended up getting biglaw jobs and a few clerked or went to the government.

Re: pushing back the start date: if a firm offers you a choice between pushing back the start date or three months or more of severance, take the severance. 2002 was also the year of pushbacks. I have a friend who opted for a delayed start date and when that date came around was told nevermind. Take the money and run!

Frango Mints?

1. Patton Boggs (DC)
2. Venable (DC)
3. Kilpatrick Stockton (DC)
4. Some crappy IP firm in Chicago
5. King & Spalding (Houston)
6. Pillsbury Winthrop (NoVa)
7. Some crappy firm in NC
8. Reed Smith (Oakland/SF)
9. ?

5:28, what firms were rescinding offers? (Or at least give a city and a Vault rung.) Any idea how your firm (or others) made the decision as to who survived?

Scott, Douglass, McConnico (Austin, TX), has no offered a class of 9. That's 9 kids (7-8 2Ls 1-2 1Ls) and only one 1L was invited back for the next summer.

Please forgive the slightly off-topic post, but I have also shared my clerking story at the bottom of it.

If you were no-offered from your summer clerkship, I provide career coaching and career search assistance for lawyers and law students. I am a licensed attorney, went to a top 25 law school, and spent six years practicing law for different sized firms, including one mentioned on this thread.

p.s. I didn't get an offer from my summer clerkship either, seven years ago (not at a firm mentioned on this thread, and because it was so long ago, I won't name the firm, because they may have changed their practices since then). I was in a group of six clerks, half of which were no-offered, with no explanation given. The firm assured me both at callbacks and the first week on the job that "we're not the kind of firm to hire six clerks and give only a few offers; if you do good work, you've got nothing to worry about; in fact, last year we gave everyone offers." I had three performance reviews during the summer, all of which were good. I was told that performance reviews actually meant something, because in previous years when a clerk had performed poorly, the firm was good about telling them so, and still giving an offer when work improved. Having gotten good reviews, I didn't think I had anything to worry about. Half way through the summer, someone at the firm took the clerks to lunch and slipped that the previous year was unusual in everyone getting offers, and in fact, the firm had been known to give 1 or 0 offers to groups of four to six clerks. The implication was a deliberate tendency to overhire. As soon as I got back to school, I checked their NALP form, which was dated the first week of JULY, and it said they were only giving 2-3 offers to their 6-clerk class. They knew what they were doing before the summer was half way over.

That being said, yes, it is hard to interview as a 3L. It's hard to go back to school and hear everyone else talking about their offers, especially the ones who got two offers from splitting. But you will recover from it. You might not get your first choice job, but it is possible to work your way up to a big firm if that's what you want.

I met an attorney who was a SA at Mintz Levin in Boston in 2001. They had a huge summer class, and then the bubble burst...
So half the class started in 2002, half the class in 2003. Those starting later were paid a reduced salary for the year they were out of work. And the 2002 summer class was of course much smaller.

5:26

yeah, that is what I was thinking but the sad part is that Loyola 2L goes to a much much more prestigious school than I. (Went here for family reasons, not because it was all I could get into). Looking into govt now as well.

didn't skadden-dc make staff atty offers to a bunch of SAs a few years back?

The worst kept secret in the legal industry is that IP boutiques are a dying breed. Brinks Hofer did these summer associates a favor by not offering them so they could be passenger on a sinking ship.

"The worst kept secret in the legal industry is that IP boutiques are a dying breed. Brinks Hofer did these summer associates a favor by not offering them so they could be passenger on a sinking ship. "

Mike, Please elaborate!

Baker & Hostetler LA, I believe, for those of you wondering.

LA has so many "big" firms that suck, are shady, are ID firms in disguise, it is sickening. But it explains the high no-offer rate.

what is an ID firm?

Yes Mike, do. Very interesting!

That's weird about LA. I think Baker Hostetler only had two out there. Maybe they took on some extras.

Insurance defense

re. King & Spalding in Houston--three summers from the same top-ten school (the only three from that school) were no-offered. All three were told during the summer that they were doing great work--not a word of criticism until the no-offer came.

Mike, just because "Biglaw" is now doing "IP litigation" doesn't mean IP boutiques are drying up. This only means that the world now has too many wannabe IP attorneys out there without the proper training and background!!

Fragomen really f__ed over its summers. You could substitute "Fragomen" for Briggs" and publish the exact same story.

"Baker & Hostetler LA, I believe, for those of you wondering."

"That's weird about LA. I think Baker Hostetler only had two out there. Maybe they took on some extras. "

I'm an associate at Baker Hostetler in Orlando. I can confirm that 2 of our 2L summers (out of 3) did not get offers.

I don't know anything about the L.A. office and their offers. I do know that we acquired the Jenkins Gilchrist L.A. office, so maybe that accounts for the discrepency in the summer associate humbers.

The real crime is not no-offering but failing to inform the summers. Chicago firms like Jenner and Bell Boyd were especially guilty of this (a few years ago, at least) -- summers who had received no criticism during the summer just never heard from the firms at all, sometimes even after calling to inquire.

a buddy of mine summered at thelen reid (NYC) and he told me they explicitly told the class they over-hired (due to the merger) and werent giving offers to half of them. He got one but worked like a dog.

IP botiques are indeed a dying breed. They lack economies of scale to keep up with the big firms, who can easily "cross-pollinate" to snag the IP work of the corporate clients they already service.

And since most botiques are local with one or two offices (e.g. Brinks Hofer, Knobbe), they can't offer the global or even national platform that big patent litigations demand. Even Fish can't keep up, see for example their recent huge loss for Microsoft in the z4 case in Texas.

So increasingly, the botiques are relying on prosecution and opinion work to pay the bills. Problem is, prosecution is commodtized with extreme downward rate pressure, and opinions are no longer necessary in view of the Sup. Ct's recent Seagate decision.

So yes, the IP trend is towards big law or lit botiques. Oh, and India for the rest of the commody prosecution work.

For the Skadden DC -- no, that is not true. The staff atty program has only been around a few years (since late '04), but it's completely separate. You wouldnt get an offer to be a staff atty coming out of the summer class.

I got "no-offered" by a mid-size in DC in 2002, even after they gave me a glowing (and written) review. About 1/3 of the summers got no-offered that year. Bad economy = way to screw up my career.

Ended up at some small firms for a few years, then decided to change fields and got back into the big firm pool. It was very difficult. That "no-offer" is quite a stigma.

I don't understand the economics of the situation. How can firms be expected to hire so many summer associates? Do that many lawyers retire each year? Is the legal market expanding so rapidly that the firms can take on junior associates at $165 a pop without consideration of overhead costs, especially when the first few years the firm is just paying for the associate's hands-on experience that he didn't get in law school?

Seriously, someone explain.

thelen summers got screwed by the brown raysman merger. both firms had already hired summers before the mergers, so the class was essentially double its normal size.

career services is advising students not to go to thelen because of their bad record of no-offers

Most new hires only stick around for 2-4 years at most. Many firms have a dearth of mid-level associates.

Big Law IP,

Prosecution is not going to India. Last time I checked, a Patent Bar was required to prosecute.

Second,
Although Biglaw can snag a lot of the IP work from their corporate clients, for the most part (not all), they still lack the expertise in the art areas.

Third,
I think you are about 20 years behind on understanding IP Boutiques such as Brinks and Knobbe. From Knobbe's website it appears that they service every corner of the globe with MDs, PhDs, etc. in every art area speaking numerous languages. Also, I believe I counted six offices all across california (State of some of the best technology and IP work in the world). Not quite what I would call local!

need I go on...

I can see it in your eyes.You don't have a single fucking offer.

I see you every time you walk down the halls. You recover from your zombie-like trance just long enough to avert your eyes away from mine. The semester has worn you down and what do you have to show for it? You are a stump of a man.

You hope I don't start up a conversation with you because you know it will lead to the inevitable. That talk and pitter patter about plans for the summer. Great summer plans of getting wined and dined in some far off city. Great plans of meeting new people and getting paid to do nothing. Because you didn't get a single fucking offer. And I can see the pain in your eyes.

I had more callbacks than you had first-interviews. I had more offers than the number of firms who would even deign to look at you twice. I've been to more cities in 4 weeks than you or your grandchildren will ever set foot in during their entire lives. Chicago, New York, LA. I can tell you which airlines fly from which terminals and how many feet you have to walk to get to the 6:50 flight to LaGuardia from the 5:30 flight from O'Hare. I've had more money thrown at me on a single dinner than you spent on food in an entire month. Because you had heard about the stories of excess. And they wouldn't even let you glance inside the window.

For me, normalcy begins again when I write my last exam for my last final of this semester. But for you, it never begins. I see you in the library paging through your casebook. I see you rush to each of your classes: a sense of urgency in the way you move. Because you lost the 1L race, and you'd like to move just a little faster for the 2L one.

6:46 You will never be normal.

Any word on the IP shops in NY (Kenyon, Fitzpatrick, Frommer, Darby, et al.)?

6:50: 6:46 is quoting a classic XO schtick.

Although the IP shops are apparently doomed, as of today, who is the best IP shop in the US and who is the best in the west? Thanks.

6:26, Fish actually got the trial judge to set aside the damage award. hmmmm...maybe they can compete?
Check your facts. (no, I don't work there)

All IP boutiques are TTT's.

I noticed that a law firm in town is hiring staff attorneys for patent work. And I saw that 6:27 mentioned a staff attorney program. What is a staff attorney? And how does that differ from a regular attorney?

I understand how it works in a court (ie 11th circuit has clerks and then staff attorneys) but I didn't realize law firms had a separate title of staff attorney rather than associate. Can someone explain? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Frommer and Darby have had a lot of turnover the past couple of years. Some of the associates have bolted for Cohen Pontani and Axinn Veltrop.

I would not say IP boutiques are gonna go away anytime soon. Many IP clients prefer specialized and smaller firms.

Lots of turnover means they'll be more likely to "dig deep" this OCI season, correct?

Also I'd like to throw MoFi into the discussion, forgot about them.

Sakes alive! I have a callback there. Would it doom my chances at an offer to bring this up?

6:33/34 brown raysman themselves no-offered a bunch of summers back in 2001. (And it was before 9/11.)

I'd think they wouldn't like it too much if they knew you read ATL. They'd know that you have all of the dirt on everyone.

6:41
Though you do have pass the registration examination to prosecute patents, I don't think you necessarily have to be a US Citizen. I think so long as you are registered in good standing to prosecute patents before your own country's patent office and meet the US requirements you can sit for the Patent Agent's exam. See page 1 titled Foreigners at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/grb.pdf

7:05 said, "All IP boutiques are TTT's."

Quite frankly, some of the IP boutiques are harder to get into than many Vault 50 GP firms.

read on another site that Dickstein Shapiro NY no-offered half their 2L class this year

Hiring at the IP firms seems to depend more on your background than your law school credentials. If they need EE's, they're going to hire EE's regardless of whether or not they made law review. Same goes for chemists, etc. depending on what they have coming down the pipeline.

As someone who's going through the interview process at most of these firms now, I think it's pretty frustrating to see people with crappier credentials get the callbacks based on their background, but thems the breaks (I also got 2 callbacks that I'm convinced that I am not qualified for, so I'm not exactly crying on my keyboard.)

As far as no-offering, it looks like they're all pretty good about offers (by their NALP forms) but I bet that the volatility in their work leads to some volatility in their SA offers.

Fish (dallas) two summers ago to a 1L - you just didnt catch on as quickly as the rest of your summer class. This after she was a 1L (from a top 5 law school)!! and never got any real feedback.

Also from Dallas - Locke Liddell & Sapp - merged with a firm this summer and denied offers to several people.

Their reasons - your overall work product did not meet expectations (after little to no feedback, even when asked).

And to another summer - "you failed to catch on to texas citation rules until your last memo, and we didnt understand some of your arguments in TWO of your SIX memos. Your arguments werent fully developed in those." This also after the summer got little to no feedback, got great reviews from other attys and came from a Top 5 law school.

Lawyers from another Dallas firm werent surprised by LLS's actions, which speaks to how they treat summers in past years.

Future Dallas lawyers beware!

I wonder, has there ever been a case of NALP fraud? Like a firm no offers a bunch of 2Ls, but "forgets" to make that clear on the form. Has that ever happened, and would anybody notice?

hey 7:17 - re: Dickstein NY--

That is simply not true. There were two no offers, and both were very unique situations.

I didn't get an offer my 2L year. I OCI'd during the fall for different cities and got a couple of nibbles but no offer. I ended up sending out resumes all winter and spring and got a job a boutique firm in my practice area in a different city.

I have switched jobs since then and no one has ever asked if I got an offer from my summer firm. I think my accomplishments since then help considerably.

Bottom line: if you don't get an offer, you aren't screwed. Get on a journal, do moot court, try to write an article, do part time work for a local attorney, if possible. Make yourself as attractive as possible, both for your first job, and for your next job, which you will leapfrog to based on your credentials and experience.

FYI, once you get your job, you know how lucky you are and you will work your butt off.

7:29 -- I have a friend who got no offered from LLS a couple of years back, again from an out-of-state school. Apparently, if you don't catch onto the Texas way of doing things within your six weeks, they have no trouble telling you to take a hike, even after good reviews.

I think part of the problem is that they know everyone in Texas splits summers, so they feel confident if they no offer you, your other firm will probably give you a spot. I heard those rumblings during my split summer last year.

7:30

Isn't it convenient that a firm can make a cold offer and that constitutes an offer for the purposes of NALP.

"Hey, we made offers to all our SA's (with the caveat that they not accept it)

@ 7:33 - I think you are thinking of OCI while we are talking about getting an offer for a full-time position after graduation because of your summer associateship.

But, your point is well taken. If you can't get into BigLaw, go public interest for a year or two (despite the salary). Makes it look less like you couldn't get a good gig after law school and more like you chose a different route. I know lots of laterals big government agencies... also, though competitive, you can usually find someplace where you are needed.

Another Dallas firm with a sizeable no-offer was Hunton. Had a class of 20+ and no-offered a sizable portion (around half) and the only reasons given were vague platitudes of having to make tough choices given a competitive summer class, despite saying that they had room for everyone at the beginning of the summer.

When I summered with LLS, they only no-offered the clearly socially retarded. One of them was from an ivy league school. Same story at the other Dallas firm I split with. Your work product is an excuse they use, because they don't want to hurt your feelings that your personality sucks.

I am not a native Texan--just not a freak--and I had no problem getting an offer from LLS and another BigTex firm.

"When I summered with LLS, they only no-offered the clearly socially retarded."

If it was so clear that these people were "socially retarded," how did they make it through the call back process? It is mighty toolish of a firm to hire a person (largely based on his or her personality) and then reject that same person for his personality.

If the only reason a person is rejected is personality, then the least the firm could do is give a cold offer.

King and spalding atlanta rumored to have no-offered at least 30% of their summers. This from an associate with a friend at K&S, though. Same as Houston- they overhired last summer.

What will also suck is the summers for 08, who will be competiting for increasingly small summer classes plus concerns about no-offers at the end of it all.

What is a cold offer?

BASICALLY 2LS SHOULD NOT GO TO ANY KING AND SPALDING OFFICE UNLESS THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE....

6:31 -- The problem is with the typical law firm hiring calendar. Recruiting committees and practice group leaders are asked to decide -- based on today's workload -- how much additional help will be needed in 2-1/2 years' time.

Those associates starting work this month began as a glimmer in the recruiting committee's eye in Spring 2005, then interviewed as 2Ls in Fall 2005 for summer jobs in 2006, for offers to come to work in 2007.

A lot can happen (economy, firm mergers, loss of a major client, defection of major rainmaker partner, etc.) in that time to change a firm's hiring needs.

5:32,
Too many (top) firms to mention. [You must be in law school.]
I was at a Top 10 law school, and I would guess that at least 25%-33% (maybe far more, of the large-firm associates) of my graduating class had either no offer at graduation, was told to come 6 months late, was offered severance not to come, was told not to come (and not offered severance), was told to come late (and then told not to come at all), etc.
I luckily went to a largish regional firm that was not big into tech work, so it weathered the storm better. Everyone at my firm kept their jobs. But I didn't have too much work for a year, and neither did most of classmates who had been lucky enough to keep their jobs.

Everyone eventually landed fairly softly, but it took a long few months for some, and others didn't find Biglaw but never went back. It's certainly a nerve-racking experience to go from an offer with a huge firm to no job at all.

anything in the top 50 or so firms like what was outlined above?

7:06 -- a staff attorney is someone who graduated from law school and passed the bar but is not on the partnership track. You do the work assigned to you by the "real" attorneys (some staff attorneys have a ton of responsibility), but there are no client development expectations and your hours are usually more tolerable.

It's not a bad use of your JD degree if you don't mind being treated as a second-class citizen.

Socially retarded people get through callbacks at firms all the time.

Are staff attorneys paid at BigLaw rates? I was under the impression that they were not and were more like permanent contract attorneys.

Thank God.

Big surprise that Pillsbury is on the list. the firm itself is a TTT.

7:55 - isnt it possible that its not the personality and it could be the firm, like so many other stories are telling us? One summer is not indicative of the next. How is it then that these people go on to get offers at other texas firms they split with that loved their personality?

I lobbied for a couple of no offers in my firm, but we gave them all offers, even the one who was a total freak. I'm told it was soft, but I'll find out in a few months.

We have a hard limit of only one no-offer a year to avoid scaring future summer associates away.

I haven't heard about Thelen NYC, but it's my understanding that on the West Coast, over the past three years, every summer, or, in the smaller offices, every summer "but one" (there's always one, right) in each office's class have received offers. Maybe because the West Coast didn't get the influx of Brown Raysman attorneys, but generally Thelen out west is careful to take only as many summers as they can give offers. And NO I am not a thelen troll, recruter or partner. Just a lowly associate.

NALP says that Thelen NYC gave 17 offers to 17 summers.

The comment about Hunton in Dallas is credited. They told the summers on their first day that basically they had too many summers because they took on all the Jenkens & Gilchrist students. I imagine it would have been nice for the J&G summers to know that BEFORE they had accepted their Hunton offer.

the NALP forms are from 2006. i think we should petition for updated NALP forms before summer offers start going out. it is really quite deceptive to post updated information after people have already made their decisions.

8:26, Thanks for the information. I assume staff attorneys make less but if the hours are tolerable and the work is interesting, who cares. Especially, since law is second career I was never really thinking partnership track.

8:18, I haven't heard any stories of significant no-offering from the DC office of K&S. Have you? It pretty much runs its own hiring operation, separate from Atlanta, so I don't think there's any reason to avoid it.

8:03 -- Totally False B.S.

K&S Atlanta gave offers of almost every summer associate, just as in prior years.

Clearly another competitor trying to make havoc because you cannot out-recruit A&B on the merits.

Sorry, should have said cannot out-recruit K&S on the merits, you A&B spy.

man there is some blatant autoadmit trolling on ATL lately. that place is a cancer.

In the summer of 2002, Weil didn't give offers to 12 of its summers in its NYC office.

I heard that Hunton & Williams' Richmond office considered not giving offers to a number of SAs last year. They gave offers to some SAs and then waited a few weeks before telling the others (hoping they would get offers elsewhere and the firm wouldn't get a bad rep for not giving everyone offers).

Baker's LA office probably no offered its summers because Ballard Spahr acquired several of their top earning partners for its new LA office.

Covington DC made offers to everyone in their summer class.

Are ATL firms other than K&S no-offering?

5:06, the U of C kids are done working at every single firm I know of, firms don't generally let summers stay this far into the next year's recruiting cycle. All the U of C kids at Skadden and Kirkland have offers and are getting ready to go back to school.

I guess we are beginning to see no-offers as a way for firms to trim the fat off their big summer classes when the economy starts heading bad. If the economy and finance markets continue going downhill, gunners at Tier II schools aren't going to have much luck anymore. Loyola 2L will have company.

11:02, where'd u hear that?

This is a really lame thread - kind of like watching a table full of fat chicks talking about the guys who fucked them in a drunken stupor and blew them off in the morning.

Not sure what motivates the King and Spalding disinformation on this topic, but to set the record straight: this past summer at K&S Atlanta there were 41 summer associates and 40 got offers. (Don't know about Houston, so I can't comment.) Call the recruiting department for confirmation if you wish. But be wary about believe everything you see posted anon. ESPECIALLY IF IT'S IN ALLCAPS.

12:48 -- Well said. Sour grapes for everyone.

SAs who got good work evaluations but didn't get an offer might want to rethink how they behave socially. Remember that work product isn't everything. Partners also look to see whether you can be trusted to be left alone in a room with a client.

Big Law IP,

Seagate was CAFC (en banc), not Supremes (at least not yet).

Harvey, you are wrong if you think the Sup Ct won't grant cert on Seagate. It's as good as denied. Not going to happen. The fed cir is finally getting the clue, thanks to the Roberts court. Bad for the botiques though.

I meant you are wrong if you think the cup ct *will* grant cert

damn i'm getting sloppy

Everything said about King and Spalding Houston on this thread is true.

The place should be avoided if you have options.

I wonder if this drop in offers had anything to do with the raise to 160?

the ks info about houston is wrong. the summers that didn't get offers were socially retarded, making racist comments and all sorts of other inappropriate remarks. several of them also really did have awful work product.

geeze, i wonder if the raise to 160 had anything to do with the no offers? hmm, ks partners make more than any other firm in houston (one or two small NY firm exceptions), but you're right, i'm sure it was the raises and not your crappy performance.

and finally, nearly every summer that got an offer has accepted (for those not in texas, generally the acceptance rate in tx is between 33-50%, depending on whether your summers clerked at two or three places).

4:58 - I dont think this is accurate.

Here is my question, wouldn't it be in the firm's best interest to give no offers rather than cold offers? Isn't there some kind of statistic that measures how many summers that received offers actually took them for each firm? Or is the fact that pretty much every firm is like the other mean that nobody cares about that statistic?

Spencer Fane in KC has a reputation for no-offering about 25% of its class.

I've heard two definitions of what a "cold offer" is: one, that the firm makes the offer but tempers it by saying that it would behoove the SA to look elsewhere; two, that the SA doesn't actually have an offer, but the firm will tell places where the SA interviews that it did.

If it's the former and you can't find anything during 3L, there's no harm in showing up for the job, even if you're not wanted. You get the name on your resume, get a paycheck, and leave as soon as you can. You may only get staffed to doc reviews, but who cares? That happens to lots of associates anyway.

10:47 - Very good point! I would also be curious to hear if anyone knows the answer about if you can return after a cold offer. I was under the impression that they "could" come back but were urged not to. So while you may feel like a second class citizen when you return, it may be ok in a really large office. Even so, at least you are getting paid, have it on your resume, and can keep looking while you are working there. Much better in my opinion than joining the ranks of L2L in the unemployment line!

Fragomen sounds too much like "frogmen" to be a real law firm

Does anyone know how many WilmerHale (DC) summers got offers? And how many accepted?

I go to the top ten school where three people go no-offered at K & S Houston and the ones I know are not socially retarded and were specifically told that there work was good. If it wasw bad then the firm should say that and not lie. So either way K&S screwed them.

Fragomen is the 800 lb. gorilla in immigration law, and Austin Fragomen is probably the most well-respected immigration lawyer in the country, but Fragomen isn't like a real law firm, I've always thought if it more like an H&R Block. The partners leverage the processing equipment and paralegals more than associates, so they are not as valued.

Apparently, Kilpatrick Stockton in Atlanta made several "cold offers" or no offers to summers who did great work without any warning...

I need to correct the false representations about King & Spalding in Houston. I worked there this last summer, got an offer, but didn't accept (only because I'm interested in a practice area specific to Washington, DC). So I'd like to think that I am an informed and relatively unbiased source of information about K&S-Houston. The fact that I'm willing to put my name on my post should also tell you something about its authenticity.

I can't tell you that EVERYONE who got no-offered was undeserving. But I can tell you that, judging from my interactions with some members of K&S-Houston's summer class, some of the no-offers didn't deserve to get jobs. Their behavior in social settings was bizarre. Their work product was, as they described it, sub-par.

People should have NO concerns whatsoever about summering at K&S-Houston. If you have normal social and work abilities, you should have no problem getting an offer. I had a fantastic and educational time this last summer, and think that K&S-Houston would've been a nice place to start my career.

Gallion & Spievogel is the 800lb gorilla in international networks of prestige

good ol' G&S is now known as: www.internalinvestigationlaw.com

When the Stakes are High …
At Gallion & Spielvogel, we have the experience required to launch a thorough and discreet independent investigation of any suspected questionable activities within your company. We know how to ensure an investigation is discreet and independent. If you are a director or general counsel of a company and you see a need for an investigation, talk to the attorneys at the Gallion & Spielvogel law firm in New York

Mr. Spielvogel also serves as the President and Chairman of the Board of Directors of the International Network of Boutique Law Firms (INBLF), an association of highly credentialed/highly pedigreed boutique law firms.

highly pedigreed???

I place a summered at in Philly this summer had roughly 10 summers and only no-offered one of them. She was an asshole. We were all pleased.

Everyone remember the Chicago recruiting thread a month or so ago? Remember the guy who ranted and raved about having heard directly from the hiring partner that not all SAs at Skadden-Chicago were getting offers?

I posted then that he was wrong and...he was wrong. Skadden-Chicago's policy is that they don't invite people to be summers if they don't expect them to be full time associates. If they did otherwise, I think a lot of associates would jump ship. We like the security of working at a firm that always makes money, no matter where we are in the cycle. Skadden can afford the people it hires.

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out because it is clear proof that disgruntled d-bags can and do provide all kinds of misinformation on websites like this that is difficult to counter. Kids, don't believe everything you read.

If those K&S summers were doing such a bad job, the firm should have been honest with them during midclerk and final interviews...not string them along. That's the real problem I see with K&S. One of the many.

I agree with 12:56.

I know one of the summers who was no-offered. He didn't schedule any 3L interviews based on what he was told by the hiring partner throughout the summer. He was really surprised he didn't get an offer since he was told he was well-liked and did great work.

That's what makes me think it was a purely economical decision.

7:29, at LLS at least, you were given feedback as were the others. Some people were given a chance to re-do memos several times. Blame it on the merger if you like, but the fact is we don't hire people who can't write. Even if they're from great schools (and trust me, that pedigree will convince people to overlook quite a few lapses). There have always been a couple of people each summer who don't receive offers.
I'm not sure what the second poster means re the "Texas way of doing things." I'm from an out of state school and not knowing the green book right off the bat wasn't held against me. There's quite a few non-natives here.

My understanding of a "cold offer" is one where you are made an offer to join the firm, but it's a job you wouldn't want to take -- e.g. contract attorney, or maybe even paralegal, usually for a very small sum. That way you can say you were made an "offer" but not as a partner-track associate.

1:02, if it helps your no-offered classmate feel better, go ahead and keep saying that it was a "purely"
economic decision. But do you really think K&S-Houston would've raised salaries if it meant leaving 3 or more quality summers without an offer?

12:56, maybe I'm wrong but I always thought of midclerk and summer reviews as an occasion to correct only SEVERE problems that are disruptive to the summer program itself (i.e. blowing off assignments, etc.). Just because no severe problems were flagged in the interview, didn't entitle someone to a job. Only after the firm sits down with everyone to review a person are they able to get a full evaluation and really figure out if they want to give a person an offer.

[Here's a repost of my earlier comments--they were kind of hidden because of the off-topic Gallion comments made after it]

I need to correct the false representations about King & Spalding in Houston. I worked there this last summer, got an offer, but didn't accept (only because I'm interested in a practice area specific to Washington, DC). So I'd like to think that I am an informed and relatively unbiased source of information about K&S-Houston. The fact that I'm willing to put my name on my post should also tell you something about its authenticity.

I can't tell you that EVERYONE who got no-offered was undeserving of an offer. But I can tell you that, judging from my interactions with some members of K&S-Houston's summer class, some of the no-offers didn't deserve to get jobs. Their behavior in social settings was bizarre. Their work product was, as they described it, sub-par.

People should have NO concerns whatsoever about summering at K&S-Houston. If you have normal social and work abilities, you should have no problem getting an offer. I had a fantastic and educational time this last summer, and think that K&S-Houston would've been a nice place to start my career.

if it's reason enough not to get an offer, it's worthy of pointing out in the mid-summer and final meetings. K&S's actions are pretty shady and worthy of criticism.

MAtt - how are you familiar with their "sub-par" work product? Just curious -

"how are you familiar with their "sub-par" work product? Just curious"

You might want to check out the phrase in between "work product" and "sub-par."

sorry guess i missed that - it was a really long rant. kinda just skimmed it.

either way, i won't be going near K&S in the future. why take that chance...

skadden associate: nobody on this thread gives a damn whether you were right or not

Alston & Bird in Atlanta gave 7-10 no-offers

I heard them describe their efforts and methods and it definitely sounded sub-par to me.

I don't mean this as an attack against any one person. Like I said, I'm not saying that everyone who got no-offered was undeserving. I'm just saying that some of the people who got no-offered should think twice before blaming K&S-Houston rather than themselves. K&S is not full of impossible-to-please people. If someone didn't get an offer, I think they should accept responsibility for their shortcomings rather than anonymously and unfairly smear the firm's reputation.

I don't think it's "unfairly smearing" K&S's rep to point out that they no-offered an unusually high number of summer associates (compared to most firms) without giving them adequate notice (and in fact affirmatively telling them they were doing fine).

While it's not unusual for a firm to realize that a particular summer associate is just not up to par at the end of the summer, when that happens to over a quarter of the class (which is supposedly the case), that speaks to a problem with the firm in my opinion.

This conversation is great. The latest (and greatest) class of law school punks convinced that their careers will be made in the next six weeks.

How dare a firm decide that some summers are asswipes and no offer them?!?

How dare a firm reevaluate its needs and no offer summers?!?

It's going to be fun to read the comments as the economy slows down and $175,000 no-nothings start getting fired. Law firms are businesses, and neither jobs nor salaries are entitlements.

hey for better or worse, this is the system. that's fine if firms want to reevaluate and no-offer...just don't bitch when we don't want to go to your cheap-ass firm

2:00, perhaps in the abstract you are correct. If I had no experience with the firm, these outcomes would give me pause. BUT that is exactly why I spoke up. I have interacted with K&S-Houston and with their 2007 summer class, and I can tell you that some of the no-offers were because of a problem with the summer associate, NOT the firm.

K&S has been throttled with such frequency on this board that I can not help but suspect the firm is employing "damage control" elements on this board.

What sort of summer could possibly have the insight of Matt, especially given the diversity of experiece summers face, even within a small office. How does a summer even know what "par" is? Or what may not "entitle" someone to a job (as well as the processes behind it)?

And what sane individual would admit to other summers efforts so shoddy that a pre-3L can pick it up?

Matt has, at best, 24 weeks of experience in a firm under his belt -- Nothing near enough to smooth over the negative comments King and Spalding is again receiving on this board.

Law students beware -- of this firm and their methods.

Good Luck

Law Students should beware of all comments on this board. Read them and then investigate for yourself. Much of what is said is untrue, either intentionally or mistakenly. Anyone who relies on this board solely or mostly for career advice is a fool.

I want to respond to two of "Not a K&S Troll's" comments.

1. "I can not help but suspect the firm is employing "damage control" elements on this board."

I did not post at the request or suggestion of anyone at K&S. Again, I have no dog in this fight (I didn't accept my offer from K&S-Houston because of my interest in a DC-specific practice area) other than preventing a few disgruntled summers from soothing their egos through unfair anonymous posts about K&S-Houston.

2. "How does a summer even know what 'par' is?"

I'm not an infant. I've worked at a lot of different places in many types of situations. You don't need law-specific experience to spot poor effort or methods. I heard about sub-par work product from some members of K&S-Houston's 2007 summer class.

When a firm tells people all summer long that they are doing good work, and they get a no-offer for "sub-par" work, the firm is the problem. Let's all agree that firms should be honest with summers or they are screwing people. They won't sign up for interviews because they expect to get an offer.

I summered at a firm that no-offered just one person. He was completely blind sided by the no-offer and it was not deserved. That was a screw job by the firm, but at least it was only one. I can't imagine three people from a top ten school plus others surviving the interview process and being that bad socially or doing that bad of work. I mean probably 5 percent of less of students from a top ten school get no-offered at the end of 2l summer.

If K&S had 3 which would equal probably 1 percent of most top 10 law school classes, then they must SUCK at hiring.

My firm and many others seem to give offers to every SA, even if they were universally despised and/or their work product was sub-par, to avoid screwing up the NALP forms. Although I agree with the comments that firms should be more careful about determining "personality issues" before someone is offered an SA position and that firms need to be better about giving SAs feedback if they are doing a terrible job, I'm not sure how much it helps people to be given an offer only for PR purposes. It's hard to survive in a law firm, particularly if no one wants you to be there in the first place. Someone who is still in law school will typically have an easier time finding another job (perhaps not the exact job that they wanted) than a very junior associate with no work assignments.

Just playing devil's advocate a bit, but I would encourage law students not to shy away from a firm just because it no-offered one or two people out of a decent sized SA class. Sometimes SAs just do not turn out to be a good fit with the firm or their work product is not what it was expected to be, even when they are at a t10 school.

King and Spalding DC pulled this last year (2006) too. Sounds like 2Ls should be wary of them.

Anyone know if MWE Chicago gave all its SAs offers this year?

Wow, Matt Sanderson, I'm not affiliated with K&S-Houston or its SA class in any way (in fact, your posts caught my attention because I work in a DC-specific regulatory practice in a DC firm), but if you are still in the process of looking for a job in DC, I would quit being K&S' biggest champion on this message board and mind your own business. What you are saying may be true, but by repeatedly posting insulting comments about other K&S SAs, you don't paint the most flattering picture of yourself. That's certainly not the type of person I would want in my practice group. I can only hope for your sake that you don't ever change your mind about going to Houston or need help from any of your fellow SAs. In other words, the legal world is small, no need to be an ass . . .

boult cummings in nashville only gave offers 5 of its 8 summers.

3:45-

I don't think he's being an ass. The point is that maybe, just maybe, when a firm no-offers an SA it's because the SA isn't associate material. Considering how superficial the hiring process is, I'm surprised mistakes like this don't happen more often. I suspect there is a lot of NALP game-playing going on behind the scenes.

That's not to defend a firm that says "greatjobgreatjobDING!", of course. Happened to a buddy of mine and it made his life very difficult.

Is there anywhere where you can find previous-year NALP firms to look for historical data?

1:03

From what I heard from these summers, they DIDNT get any feedback from LLS. ANd they were told it was their offer to lose and they had to skrew up big to not get an offer, like sleep with another summer associate. I dont believe turning in work consistently throughout the summer, trying their best on what little feedback they were given, and trying to be a nice person meant losing the offer. or meant they could not write, especially when told by several people they had clear and concise writing, good enough as a real associate there. If the writing was that bad, then they should have been told that from the start, or at least along the way. Smart people can fix mistakes.

"DC Lawyer":

I apologize if I came off as an "ass" in my most-recent post. It certainly was my not my intent. Perhaps you are correct that I was not quite as polite as I should have been.

It is not my goal to be K&S's "biggest champion". I only think it unfair that a few anonymous posters are taking out their frustrations at the expense of a good firm's reputation.

I think that I would be much more of an "ass" if I stood by and didn't defend people who I think are good and fair.

"DC Lawyer":

I apologize if I came off as an "ass" in my most-recent post. It certainly was my not my intent. Perhaps you are correct that I was not quite as polite as I should have been.

It is not my goal to be K&S's "biggest champion". I only think it unfair that a few anonymous posters are taking out their frustrations at the expense of a good firm's reputation.

I think that I would be much more of an "ass" if I stood by and didn't defend people who I think are good and fair.

Didn't mean to double-post, sorry.

1:50: How big was the class? Why did A&B no-offer so many people?

Matt,

There is nothing unfair about people posting about a firm that no-offered summers in a thread about firms that no-offered summers. You have bashed people who said nothing negative about you in order to praise a firm that would have likely treated you like just another disposable associate (if you went to work there). This just makes you come across as an ass kissing super-gunner.

Matt:

You have an offer. The people you're bashing are looking for jobs. Their careers are over now that they're no-offered, and you're hammering the nails in their coffins.

The people from top law schools who get no-offered are quite often AA admits who are so atrociously dumb that the firm can't even risk hiring them for the diversity bump.

Has a worse decision ever been made on this board than Matt Sanderson's decision to post here under his real name?

Matt, surely you didn't expect this to go well.

JJ -

The two K&S SAs I know of who got no-offered were both white males.

Nice try.

7:29/4:07,
Offers are "yours to lose" but that's not to say it can't be done. I'm quite certain you weren't told that all you had to avoid was colossal social no-no's like sleeping w/ fellow summers and/or associates. The bar just ain't that low.
(also, it's pretty clear from the first post who you are)

J

Venable DC was definitely in the no offer category last year. I believe 1/2 did not get offers. Personally, my favorite part was the way they NEVER updated their website, so for future SAs it still said "offers given to 15 out of 16 ppl."

Arent Fox DC did not give 100% offers in 2007.

foley made the same offer to me in a major market

ip boutique lerner david in NJ no offered 2/5

A few responses to others' comments that were directed at me and then I've said my peace.

5:02 said: "You have an offer. The people you're bashing are looking for jobs. Their careers are over now that they're no-offered, and you're hammering the nails in their coffins."

I didn't post to add insult to these people's injury. I posted ONLY to rebut claims that K&S-Houston is a "no offer factory". I NEVER would have posted otherwise. I feel genuinely sorry that some of these people didn't end up getting offers. But just because they feel bad doesn't mean they get to blame a firm for something that was their fault without someone calling them on it.

5:17 said: "Has a worse decision ever been made on this board than Matt Sanderson's decision to post here under his real name?"

Why would it be a bad decision to post under my real name? I have said nothing over-the-top or incorrect. I don't fear any negative consequences that might result from my remarks. (If there are any.) I felt that it was important to back-up my claims with my name. That's more than can be said for the bitter and anonymous few who've been responding to my posts.

Many Texas firms generally offer only 75-85% of clerks (I believe Hayboo's offer rate is actually much lower - they always have a ton of clerks). However, since most clerks split summers, probably 90% or more get an offer somewhere, so it is not as bad as it sounds. The reasons for non-offers can range from bad work to stupid actions to lack of need to poor fit/personality.

I was a 1L last summer (2006) in atlanta -- mckenna long -- did not get an offer, it was not updated on the firm website. They did this to another 1L and one 2L the same number. I did get a job as a 2L at a V100 firm. I have an offer.

I don't know if they pulled the same crap this year or not.

to be clear, I got a no offer after my 1L year. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as after a 2L year.

kudos to Matt Sanderson ... it is perfectly reasonable to correct incorrect statements...there are a lot of individuals who use this board to make decisions

I would not post under my real name while describing colleagues work as sub-par. First, you look like a jerk whether it is true or not. You have no dog in this fight, but you act like you do. I would not want to hire someone who is willing to so openly criticize colleagues on the internet just because you would probably be willing to do it again.

Second, what did it accomplish. King & Spalding gave no offers to a sizable portion of the class. When I was in law school I summered at three firms. I saw about 6 people get no offered at these firms. No one that got no offered at my firms deserved it. I know for a fact that several of them didn't deserve it for work based reasons because we would review each other's work before we handed it in. That is not saying that I believe there is never a reason for someone getting a no offer. There most certainly are circumstances where that is the best idea, but when a sizable portion of summer associates get no-offers who were told they were doing good work there are only two options and both make the firm look bad.

First, they suck at hiring and then lie to the summers about it as they go on. I don't want to work for a firm that is dishonest with me and with my colleagues. If they say you have nothing to worry about in your mid-term review, you should get an offer if nothing dramatically changes.

Second option is that they don't have the work to support the summers. They overhired or had a downturn. It makes them look like a sinking ship.

From what your arguments say (assuming that they really did get good feedback throughout the summer), it is the first option. I would rather have a firm that mistakenly overhired and admitted it and offers to provide references and recommendations for summers than a firm that lies to me throughout the summer and doesn't give me a chance to correct my mistakes. If a firm lies to you throughout the summer and hten won't help you find another job, they are screwing people over and deserve to get any bad press they get.

So which is it Matt? Is K & S's Houston office (screw firm wide profits) a sinking ship? Are certain practice areas failing (corporate for example)? Or is King and Spalding a firm that is dishonest with employees and potential recruits?

Either way, I think we can all agree that King & Spalding should have a black eye during the subsequent recruiting season.

When I was in law school I turned down an offer from a firm that was a better fit for me because of an offer percentage around 67 percent. I recommend that others do the same.

Getting a no-offer is not a death sentence. If the firm no-offered at summer's end with no feedback along the way, it's remiss in doing so. I know it's the firm's prerogative, but it is 100% their responsibility to let a summer associate know if he or she is screwing up. Everybody knows that a summer associate gig is nothing like a job - it's more like an audition. To not give a summer associate a heads-up that he or she should probably go through OCI again is pretty shitty. Not surprising, though, seeing as most BIGLAW lawyers are incredibly critical and non-confrontational. They're the most cowardly bullies I've ever met.

I probably wouldn't have known to do this at the time had I been no-offered, but now that I'm on the other side of things, here's my advice if you don't get an offer if you haven't gotten any feedback along the way. First, don't be shamed into silence - challenge it and ask questions about it in a professional way. What's done is done, so you can't really alienate anybody at the firm at this point (provided you're not pissed-off and crazy about the whole thing). Even if it's not a "cold offer", ask the firm if you can say that you got an offer from them that you turned down when you're interviewing. You could also ask if you could tell firms you're interviewing with that you didn't get an offer, but get a letter saying that it wasn't for performance reasons - especially if that's what the firm told you. Your work product may not have been great or you may have said something inappropriate, but that doesn't mean that not getting an offer should be an eternal black mark. Most firms don't want to screw their summer associates over and agonize over giving no-offers because they know damn well word will get out.

Don't forget, too, that you may not even have to address this in an interview. "Why aren't you going back to firm X next year?" "I learned a lot, but it's really not for me because...." You're not lying and the chances of their getting the whole story are pretty slim.

do SA's at NYC biglaw firms need to worry about cold or no-offers for the 2008 summer?

Okay, so I do think it ironic (and am undecided about the actual connection) that K&S was the first to raise 1L salaries while simultaneously no-offering prospective 1Ls. I would not be surprised to find a fewer number of 1Ls expected to do more work. Maybe the partners are thinking, "Rather than hire 10 associates at $140,000, we can hire 7 associates at $160,000 and make them work more and save money...!" You know the first 1L class to make the "new money" will be guilted and derided into putting in more hours than the class before them.

ok, so i got a position as a SA. the thing is, that was my only callback. i'm 1 for 1. my grades suck. i do have some good work experience, but does anyone ever get an offer that they really think they didnt deserve? at this point, i really feel as though they didnt check my transcript. i felt that way when i got the callback and still feel this way. how unusual is this?

1:44: take the position and run. Don't worry about it and make sure you get the offer on paper.

maaaaaaaat sanderson!!!!!!!

@ 10:08 - i agree, i will take it and run and bank the $3k/week....and i'm thrilled about it....but i'm wondering if thats unusual. my career services says many people only get one offer (i'm not at a highly ranked school) and they take that. but i would have thought that normally, getting 1 offer atleast means getting several callbacks (ie if you are good enough to get an offer, then you're at least good enough to get multiple callbacks.) in my case, i have 1 cb and one offer out of 16-20 screening interviews. so did they not check my transcript?? (i know, i'm paranoid)

9:21, you are spot-on. BigLaw attorneys can be totally passive-aggressive, and that is often the case when they dole out rejection - you don't even see it coming. I also agree with your comment about not being shamed into silence. Hold them accountable for their decision.

johnnyman, it varies pretty widely, but don't jump to the conclusion that the firm made a mistake. Maybe someone you interviewed with really enjoyed talking with you or something on your resume (such as your past work experience) really appealed to someone important at that particular firm. You are probably just feeling overwhelmed by the people who talk non-stop about how many callbacks and offers they have and how overwhelming it is. If I were you, I would use the time not spent on callbacks and haggling over which firm to select to try to bring your grades up, if you aren't sure whether you'll want to work for that firm permanently (or if you are really that concerned that they will discover their "mistake"). Best of luck to you!

Greenbaum, Rowe Smith & Davis in Woodbridge, NJ is also a no-offer factory.

I would caution against taking a summer job with Arnold and Porter, LLP, at least in the Denver office.

A&P did not give me an offer. They said "everyone liked you" and "you fit in well." Their excuse was that they were "concerned" about two of the assignments I did this summer. This is a totally bogus excuse.

1) I got great feedback on my work this summer. When I asked for constructive criticism I got some comments about areas to improve, but nothing major at all.

2) I'm a good writer. In fact, writing is my biggest strength. I received two writing awards in my first year of law school. I'm at a top ten law school, and I have top grades here. I worked hard this summer and did good work, just like I always do. I'm not saying that to brag AT all but simply to prove that their reason for not hiring me had absolutely NO merit at all.

I'm pretty sure the real reason I didn't get an offer was that they knew I was interested in doing public interest work.

I'm also thinking there might have been financial reasons. The Denver office only had 22 attorneys at the beginning of the summer. During the summer alone, three partners (one third of the practicing partners in the Denver office) left. So they may have decided that someone in the summer class had to go, and if someone has to go, why not boot the one we think might just pay off her loans and leave (which, ironically, is what most attorneys at law firms do ... regardless of whether they want to go into public interest work or not).

Either way, is that the kind of firm you want to work for and a risk you want to take? There are plenty of firms (ranked better than A&P) where you are pretty much guaranteed to get an offer unless you screw up REALLY badly (aka bring prostitutes to a firm event or sleep with a partner's wife). Don't waste your summer at one where you have a chance of not getting an offer no matter how well you do. It's just not worth the risk.

h

does anyone know whether Thompson & Knight is a no offer factory? 10 of their 36 summers did not get an offer one year

Hunton's Dallas no-offers this summer made no sense. Nothing was said to the SA's prior to the summer about limiting offers and nothing was said to the J&G SA's absorbed into the program or I am sure they would have gone elsewhere instead. It seems the hiring partner was rude when asked by the cut SA's why they were no-offered and gave lame reasons of "lots of good candidates and hard decisions had to be made." The SA I know that was no-offered got glowing feedback at mid-program and constant feedback that work product was excellent and what a young attorney should be doing. Yeah...sounds like that SA should have been cut...

Hunton also went against its own stated policy to the SA's and had groups recruiting and offering positions to SA's in areas they didn't even work in (and did not want to work in) passing over others that got excellent feedback.

Definitely shady business and something up there. Questions were rebuffed by those no-offered, no ability to get letters of recommendation from those worked for (directed to the rude hiring partner), and they notified the SA's with offers on a Tuesday and waited until Friday the same week to tell the no-offers. This caused the no-offers to miss OCI which they could have taken advantage of.

A few of the offered SA's from that class were so disgusted that they took their first half offers and wouldn't consider Hunton becuase of the way they treated the other SA's.

Avoid Hunton in Dallas as an SA. They expect SA's to act like professionals, but clearly have a problem doing so themselves.

I got burned in Dallas, Texas too my 1L summer. I think the Texas firms think they are exceptional in that they can no-offer large percentages of their summer classes and get away with it.

Baker & McKenzie dinged me after giving me nothing but good feedback all summer. And they were cruel about it. Told me over the phone that there were "issues" with my work product and "you didn't impress us." Those are fighting words! For all they knew, I would continue to practice in Dallas and see them on a regular basis so I am surprised they were so cold.

Then I went to Sidley Austin and got good feedback all summer only to be dinged because supposedly too many 2Ls from the previous years accepted. I mean, they could have at least given me a cold offer, right? It wasn't just me too, out of 4 1Ls, they only offered 1.

So I marched into 2L OCI with TWO no-offers in hand. Miraculously, most interviewers never thought to ask whether I got offers, but I definitely lost out on two offers from top firms when it came out I got two no-offers during my 1L summer.

I work for an international Biglaw firm in HK now and my bosses are crazy about the work I do, so I know I am not a social misfit or a moron.

I went to Michigan and 99% of Michigan students don't go to Texas so I never had a chance to warn anyone about these two firms, but here is my global warning: Avoid Sidley and Baker & McKenzie Dallas like the plague. Not cool people.

HK = Hong Kong by the way.

Holland & Knight in D.C. non offered 2 out of 7 in 2007, even though they NEVER gave the slightest indication that the work by these associates was anything other than extraordinary

What about K&S DC?

Is it safe to assume that top 20 firms probably won't have the same problems/no-offers as top 80 firms?

kilpatrick and stockton atlanta screwed over so many summer associates...if you want an offier, don't go there