First! And not a contract attorney!

First! And not a contract attorney!

Lat, you gotta delete these ridiculous first posts. They are seriously corny.

12:07 - You are a douchbaaiiiiiggggg -guuhhhh

I've heard about contract work, but I have no idea what it is. No, I'm not trolling.

What is it? How do you find it? Anybody care to write a short primer?

The truth is that it is not just non-top tier schools that have employment issues. I do not wish to say it is not worse in some school than others, but outside the T14, the job hunt is less than a guarantee. These schools - GW, BU, BC, Fordham, etc. - represent a purgatory of the legal education community.

Though many are successful, those out side the top 35% are not exactly guaranteed a BigLaw job, and work extremely difficult to find a place to go.

Though a non top tier discussion is certainly warranted, advice for Tier 1, but non T14 would also be helpful.

I would like to hear from anyone who did not have a job offer and waited until the bar results came in and then immediately found their dream job at an AmLaw100 firm. Has that happened.

And what does happen, to about 90 percent or more of law school graduates, is that they do not ever find a job at an amlaw100 firm and they go on to have happy, productive careers, not making multiples of 100, but still doing o.k.

And what happens to the people who went to non-accred. schools is that they realize that they were just scammed.

Comments?

" . . . once bar exam results emerge will be hitting the legal market in search of the dream job."

Get real. Passing the bar isn't going to turn Loyola 2L into a T14 grad.

"I would like to hear from anyone who did not have a job offer and waited until the bar results came in and then immediately found their dream job at an AmLaw100 firm."

Hell no. If you didn't get a summer gig you're not getting a biglaw offer. The person who wrote that comment is living in la-la land.

As a student at one of these Tier 1, non T14 schools I agree w/ GW2L... although I think in this category things are somewhat more school specific. For example, at my school the top 35% generally have no problem getting a biglaw job, those in the top 15% have numerous choices while those in the 15 to 35% category might have fewer choices, or might not get into the best of the V100, but will still get biglaw. I would say from 35 to 50 things depend more on the person, for example a stronger resume other than the class rank gpa might get biglaw... below 50% you're most likely out of luck... although there are always the occasional folks who get biglaw through serious networking or luck etc... which unfortunately leads to the anecdotal evidence that suggests to people in that bracket that they'll be able to get into biglaw.

As a student at one of these Tier 1, non T14 schools I agree w/ GW2L... although I think in this category things are somewhat more school specific. For example, at my school the top 35% generally have no problem getting a biglaw job, those in the top 15% have numerous choices while those in the 15 to 35% category might have fewer choices, or might not get into the best of the V100, but will still get biglaw. I would say from 35 to 50 things depend more on the person, for example a stronger resume other than the class rank gpa might get biglaw... below 50% you're most likely out of luck... although there are always the occasional folks who get biglaw through serious networking or luck etc... which unfortunately leads to the anecdotal evidence that suggests to people in that bracket that they'll be able to get into biglaw.

axiom is a big contract lawyer outfit. anyone have any experience working for them?

I wrote the contract in the picture above. *feels proud*

Top tier school, non T14, top quartile, journal (not law review) = lots of biglaw screening interviews (over 40), some callbacks (7), few offers (1, hoping for a second).

You aren't going to get a lot of posts on this thread until tonight, possibly,

Why? Because contract attnys have no access to internet. Nor can they use their cell phones, or even take a bathroom break, without being docked.

It's hell.

well i guess your a poor interviewer.... my stats up to the screening interviews are the same as yours... but i turned that into about 15 callbacks and 10 offers

As a student at a school ranked 27-36 I can say that falling outside the top 1/3rd really jeopardizes your chances for biglaw, it's possible just much harder. Those who fall outside this top 1/3rd category truly are in a legal purgatory. They attended a Tier 1 school but haven't made biglaw.... and for employers outside of biglaw rank of school/class rank becomes much less important than to the biglaw employers. Therefore, these grads are often competing with lower tier grads on somewhat equal footing because the employer is focusing more on the person and less on the school/rank.

When I applied to law school years ago, I understood the importance of getting into a top law school. I got good grades, was involved in the community, and killed the LSAT. No surprises, but my hard work paid off. If anyone claims they did not understand the importance of getting into a top school, they are idiots.

Who can honestly say that they were ignorant of the importance of going to a top law school when they were applying for law schools....

I barely researched schools when I was applying, but the one thing that immediately shot out at me was that if you want to get a good legal job you need to go to a good school.

Ultimately, law students are consumers, and if you aren't an informed enough consumer to realize that the TTT school is not going to get you a biglaw job then you deserve your crushing debt burden and hellish existence.

Is contract work (or being a staff attorney) as absolutely soul-crushing as it seems?

In my experience, associates are generally very nice to contract/staff attorneys--- to their faces. However, in private, associates make it clear that they would NEVER take such work and that those who do must be either lazy or stupid, (or both) or simply unwilling to accept work as an associate in a smaller form or one located outside of Manhattan. Associates generally agree (implicitly or otherwise) that contract/staff attorneys’ work is incompetent and unreliable. Also, associates tend to agree that working as contract/staff attorney for anything longer than three months destroys a new lawyer’s ability to ever become an associate at any “real” firm.

The staff attorneys respond that they have it made: decent pay, easy hours, and plenty of overtime when they need a little extra cash.

I’m not sure if the “benefits” of being a contract/staff attorney outweigh the stigma attached and the psychological damage (acknowledged or not) of being look down upon all the time by peers in your age group.

Thoughts?

Yes! My comment has made it into an article on ATL, now I won't have a problem getting a job with an AM100 firm anymore.

Wrong. My email to Lat, which poignantly was the subject of this article, was not meant to beat the drum of discontent. Rather, it was to galvanize those summer '07 grads like myself who are currently doing contract work with no idea of where the future will take them.

I would tend to believe that contract folk like me represent the majority of '07 grads. So who cares that some new associate at Latham lit his farts on fire yesterday (typical ATL fodder), instead focus on the other 90% of grads who don't work at white shoe firms. After all, we will be representing Joe the Fart Lighter at Latham when he gets his DUI (DWI for those east coasters), so be nice.

Who can honestly say that they were ignorant of the importance of going to a top law school when they were applying for law schools....

I barely researched schools when I was applying, but the one thing that immediately shot out at me was that if you want to get a good legal job you need to go to a good school.

Ultimately, law students are consumers, and if you aren't an informed enough consumer to realize that the TTT school is not going to get you a biglaw job then you deserve your crushing debt burden and hellish existence.

Being a staff attorney is different from (and better than) doing contract attorney work. And quite frankly, as a tier two grad who has managed teams of contract attorneys to do doc review, most contract attorneys are really not the cream of the crop - some are downright clueless about what privilege means (for anyone who is unclear, public documents are not privileged). I've met some very capable staff attorneys and often rely on their expertise in document collection and production and compliance with e-discovery rules

"Because contract attnys have no access to internet."

Contract attorneys can't buy Iphones?

The posts on Top-tier, non-T14 schools are spot on. Outside of the top 25-33%, you are screwed if biglaw is your goal. If you're at AU, then many of the V100 don't even interview at OCI, so I think it gets worse outside of the T25 and probably depends on how many other schools are in your city/region. I really question, however, the claim that people in the bottom 50% at GULC are 'guaranteed' a biglaw job. This 'T14' category is dubious at best.

I don't know what the situation is like now, but a few years back, contract attorneys were heavily used for covering asbestos depositions in states w/ large asbestos dockets (Texas, California, etc.). Firms paid around $50/hr., which could add up to a decent living if the attorney covered 2 depos a day (which wasn't unusual -- a firm like Baron & Budd would often "host" 10 or more depos per day, all involving the same defendants) or had to travel.

Tort reform may have killed this, though, as firms mainly used contract attorneys to cover depos of plaintiffs who weren't really sick.

I'm a BigLaw associate and, frankly, I don't give a crap about prestige or status and would gladly consider contract work if I felt comfortable I could still pay my family's bills. Seems that placement agencies take a decent cut. I'm wondering if, with my background, I could cut out the middleman and take the extra $$/hr for myself (or some portion of it).

why is everyone focused on T14? Is there some type of cutoff at #15 that I don't know about?

I am at a top tier law firm and I have worked with staff attorneys. I don't treat them any differently than regular attorneys at the firm. They just do full time doc review and there is no possibility of partnership. So it is a dead end job. However, they are capable. The work they do is generally "better" than contract attorneys - staff attorneys don't do first cut document review.

"focus on the other 90% of grads who don't work at white shoe firms."

If you think that 10% work for white shoe firms, you are very mistaken. The number is much smaller.

Graduated from BC in the middle of the pack. Top 25% usually make it to biglaw. Otherwise it's up to luck. Didn't get an offer, moved to DC and ended up doing contract work. Say what you will re: bad work conditions, it's not that bad considering the money to perform mindless diligence most of the time. Most people I knew who were happy as contract attorneys didn't care about prestige or recognition, just the wkly paychecks.

However, for those intent on making it to biglaw, it can still happen. The more years you're out the less firms care about your grades/school, so long as you know what you're doing.

I work for a state agency in the southeast as a law clerk. It's temporary work but they let me handle a good bit and everyone in the office is really nice. I am limited to 40 hours per week. I get paid $22.50/hour with no benefits. I landed the job because I summered here last year and they had a lot of work this fall and needed additional help.

I was in the top 40% of a Tier 2 school. Six years of previous work experience before law school with some experience in directly what the agency does so thats how I got the job in the first place.

I am providing this information so that others who are looking for contract work can adjust their expectations accordingly. Please don't ridicule me for going to a Tier 2, being only in the top 40%, not having a permanent biglaw job at graduation, etc. I've read all the comments and posts this week so I know how you (T-14) feel about us (non T-14). I feel pretty lucky that this opportunity came about and that it's enough to make ends meet until bar results come out.

12:53 - its a precipitous drop from Gtown to UCLA

Top 10 is what matters. The bottom third of GULC and Northwestern are screwed.

I'm always stunned when my colleagues treat contract attorneys like crap and then expect 110% from them.

12:50 is full of it. AU gets more OCI stops than most other comparably ranked schools. Maybe you should pay attention in class. If you're top 15, on a journal and interview well you have a biglaw job in DC. Go to class more often.

I've gotta say - I'm really surprised that B.C. grads fare so poorly, even outside of Boston. That sucks.

This is getting to be a bit much. 2nd tier grads are humans too and this whole 2nd tier grad week bs is degrading. Why don't you have a black persons job prospects week while you are at it. (yes, i am a tier 2 grad, though i work biglaw - yes its possible!)

The problem w/ the non T-14 tier 1s is that essentially everyone who goes there was a good student in undergrad, had a good lsat score etc. I go to BC, and there are numerous Harvard/Yale/other Ivy league grads here. The average lsat score was 165, meaning that a significant number of people here had scores in the high 160s. So although not a T-14, everyone here has had a high degree of academic success up until law school.

As such, everyone comes in expecting to be in the top 3rd, because their entire lives have been spent in the top 10 to top 25%... But the numbers are numbers, and 2/3 of those people will end up outside the biglaw sphere

12:40 = douche

At my school, which is solidly in the t40, we have less than 5 firms in the Vault 100 interview at OCI. NONE of these pay 160. Simply put there is NO WAY to get a 160k job no matter what your rank without hitting the streets from my school. It doesn't matter if you are in the top 5% or the top 33%. To make it worse, to get the top instate jobs coming out of my school (which only pay ~100k), you have to either be in the top 10%, have a nice rack, or have a parent at one of the other big local firms. Our CSO is worse than most any TTT and we are solidly first tier (and rising every year).

I was solidly in the top 1/3 and either just in or just out of the top 25% all the way through law school at my T35 and depsite grades (and even much better than that UG grades) I never even got a single BigLaw OCI. Not only were there only a few regional-at-best V100 firms, but the ones there wouldn't even look at a resume that wasn't top 10% and wouldn't hire any non-smoking-hot chick that wasn't top 5%.

Well the top 1/3 of BC have no problems generally getting biglaw... from 1/3 to top 50 it becomes more sporadic, particularly for boston firms they have a lot of other options... but it's really only outside the top 50% that is an automatic death knell for biglaw (barring the occasional person w/ significant contacts, etc)

I think schools like GW in many ways have the worst of both worlds -- (a) you have to do really well to be guaranteed a BigLaw job, but (b) you also spend three years in a super-competitive environment of people stepping all over each other to ensure they are among the folks falling into category (a).

"the ones there wouldn't ... hire any non-smoking-hot chick that wasn't top 5%."

Lat - can we have a series of posts on this topic next week? Perhaps an entire week dedicated to the poor job prospects of the ugly?

most girls in law school are not good looking... and honestly lats definition of what is "hot" in a girl is pitiful

Honestly, the information is out there. If you went to a non-T14 and didn't get BIGLAW due to median grades its your own fault.

You guys at BC/BU/GW/Fordamn that can't get jobs are doing something wrong. I'm BC, middle of the pack, no law review/journal, no moot court, no extra curricuulars at all really (unless you count softball) and I had about 50 interviews opportunities through OCI (applied to a lot because of my weak class standing; didn't think I'd do so hot), turned down 30 or so off the bat, did 20, got 11 callbacks, 6 offers.

Maybe you guys should read a book like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" or something similar, because apparently lack character and personality to the point of making you utterly unemployable.

And to those that didn't do well in OCI: BC/BU/GW/Fordham, et al. aren't Harvard, et al. You aren't going to get the job by just putting your name in the hat. Those of you at these schools without jobs are lazy. I know the type. You submit your resume to OCI and just sit back and wait. You don't write cover letters. You don't network. You don't have any follow-through in you.

So stop posting on ATL and actually APPLY yourself to something. If you're in the jobless situation, it's obvious you didn't apply yourself well enough in undergrad, on the LSAT, or in law school. So you'd better start now and at least apply yourself to your job search.

"Perhaps an entire week dedicated to the poor job prospects of the ugly?"

The supreme court loves the ugly.

1:13: Absolutely. I had the same experience at Brooklyn Law School which, contrary to popular belief, had a lot of very intelligent and, equally important, very hard-working students. Not everybody, of course, but enough to make it tough.

When I was a summer associate, one day one of the contract attorneys got "promoted?" to staff attorney. At some point I saw him and said congratulations, and he shot me the dirtiest look I've ever seen! Must have some kinda resentment for summers . . .

Sorry, 12:50, we (Bottom 50 at GULC) really are guaranteed biglaw jobs. Mostly because people have actually heard of our school in cities like Denver, Phoenix and Minneapolis. Our junk either floats up to NYC (where they hire DEEP into the class) or slips off to St. Louis or someplace not on the coast. But they all get hired, and NOT as staff attorneys or contract attorneys.

@ Not 12:50

1. I don't go to AU, but I do know about who interviews there because of friends who go there and have good stats

2. There are many V100 firms that do not interview there...period. I notice you didn't contest that

3. The reality is that, within DC, AU is for those that don't make it into GULC, GW, and [maybe] GMU. The only school you're better than is Catholic. Just face it, you're last in line for the 'biglaw' jobs and, as such, many of the best firms simply skip you.

4. AU = TOT (Tier-One-Toilet)

LOL! This is all really amusing. It ultimately comes down to what you want to do and how hard you want to work for it.

I went to a TTT LS and have a biglaw job once I graduate.

Considering I posted about BC, I wasn't complaining, I'm in the top 15% and on a journal, I've done fine for myself and was able to submit to OCI and sit back and wait and let the offers roll in... I was merely commenting on the general situation at BC and, I imagine, schools like it... But you are obviously a super-star... and unfortunately it's superstars like you who make the masses think that by reading books on how to be personable they will be able to get a job.

The fact of the matter is, outside the T14, you can be the most personable, friendly, dedicated person in the world... but if you are outside the Top 1/3 at a Tier 1 or the Top 15% at a Tier 2 and not a journal... it's an uphill battle.

GULC 2007 grad here. Top 60%. Doing contract work. 2L year: 30 OCI interviews, 12 callbacks, no offers. I know many in my same boat who won't admit it to anyone who has a biglaw job.

For what it's worth, CDO here claims that 50% of 2Ls find a job through OCI, though this doesn't mean all got a biglaw position

Let's get a thread going on the plight of the non-T14 Tier 1 folks, especially those in the 15-30 range... these are the poor souls who were so close to T14 but just missed out.. unlike they TTT losers they are actually generally intelligent people who had high prospects but are now always forced to live w/ the sad knowledge that they were just a miniscule few lsat questions away from legal utopia...

I go to GMU and I want to say a good chunk of this year's graduating class did not have any type of job at graduation. I am scared. Very scared.

prospects seem better at fordham than what is being presented on this board. as a 3l i am now about median gpa, though finished 1l just making top third. i summered at a vault 20 and had several offers. I have friends who finished 1l well below the median but got their gpas up as 2ls and now have several offers as 3ls at big law firms. seems like about half of fordham students will end up in big law and not everyone even wants it.

1:22, I believe you just coined a new phrase to describe schools like American U and G[eorgetown]W[aitlist].

TOTs.

1:31--You are pathetic. Quit feeling sorry for yourself.

... these are the poor souls who were so close to T14 but just missed out.. unlike they TTT losers they are actually generally intelligent people who had high prospects but are now always forced to live w/ the sad knowledge that they were just a miniscule few lsat questions away from legal utopia...

You clearly have no clue if you think the mindless paper shuffling drudgery ALL BIGLAW associates do is Legal utopia... Utopia my friend is being a solo trial lawyer, sought after because of demonstrated skills, working 9-5 and earning 250K plus... STOP DRINKING THE KOOL_AID it will KILL YOU!

3L in the bottom quarter at NYU (and an URM to boot), and I have no job lined up after graduation, biglaw or otherwise.

I almost completely struck out at OCI and wound up with only 1 summer associate offer, which did not result in a permanent offer.

Do geography and alumni play a bigger role than we all seem to be indicating here? Brooklyn seems to be a good example of a school that does way better at biglaw placement than its rank would indicate it should. It's proximity to Manhattan and the fact that it's been around long enough to have a deep alumni pool it what I would attribute that to.

Middle of the pack 2007 grad from top 8 school with no job. It's rare, but it happens. We fall through the cracks, then are treated like pariahs, and the future is very uncertain.

Top 60%??? I didn't know the "top" extended down that far...

If you are graduating NYU at any spot and you don;t have a job you must drool on yourself during interviews.. or give off a malodorous offensive stench...

1:38, it's not your fault. You were never good enough for NYU or even T14, and your school let you in anyway. That was very irresponsible of them. You're not actually competitive with your classmates and that's why no one will hire you.

OHHHHH No I get what URM means---- right, probably should not have been there in the first place..

I went to a lower end T1 school and they reported to us that only 15% of all jobs were receieved through OCI. At OCI, no biglaw came, had to travel to off-campus interviewing consortiums for any chance at biglaw - though I know of precious few getting that chance.

The way this whole "non-elite" thing is framed is just silly, and it draws once again on the underlying assumption that all ATL readers are dying to work 100 hours a week as an associate douchebag at a corporate firm.

I didn't go to a top tier school, I have no desire to spend my days sucking ass at some "biglaw" firm, and I'm perfectly happy. There is a big world out there, and lots of interesting jobs. There are plenty of ways to make a living without going through the same monotonous, elitist corporate grind that this blog pretends is the apex of the legal profession.

GW2L et al.: I graduated from GW in '04, top third of the class (barely), and I worked a contract attorney job for a year and a half. It sucked, but it paid the bills.

One part of the problem is that GW, like all law schools, tells you when you're applying that 92% of graduates are employed at graduation, and most are in big firms. Sounds great, let's take of lots of loans! Not 'til you get there does the word reach your ears that it's 92% of those who responded, as in, not including pissed off grads who through away the worthless CDO's survey.

Whatev. Now I'm at a large firm making bank, so all's well that ends well, suckas.

I worked on a case doing second level doc review after a contract attorney did the first level review. They were basically told to get rid of the absolutely irrelevant and if anything was even remotely related, to keep it. It seems my firm does not have much faith in these contract attorneys! Is this common at other firms???

What does "T14" stand for?

I started off doing contract work. Now I'm in BigLaw. Tier IV grad.

:P

I think the more interesting question is the plight of BigLaw associates who "manage" these contractors. Can those folks ever make partner? (I'm not one of those folks - I am on partnership track at my firm (not the one where I did contract work))

Has anyone tried the new Adams Pro Idea hybrid. It's pretty awesome. Took 5 strokes off my average last Saturday.

Let's all agree to ignore the second level doc reviewer and that question.

The lawschools need to do a better job of realizing that most graduates do not work at 100+ lawfirms and are never going to work at 100+ lawfirms. Has any law school ever tried to help graduates secure job with smaller firms? Or is the problem that law school professors and deans are all themselves big law drop outs and so as clueless as the elitist posters we see here.

1:21: Perhaps it's the "promoted" being in quotes, you asshole.

"2nd tier grads are humans too and this whole 2nd tier grad week bs is degrading. Why don't you have a black persons job prospects week while you are at it."

Because black + decent grades at any law school = easy street in the diversity-starved job market.

It stands for "Top 14." That designation is used because the elitist, east coast snobs who populate this board can't come to terms with the fact that Los Angeles has two first tier law schools that serve as feeders to all the large firms in California.

What, California? Never heard of it. Uh huh, you NY douchebacks. Check it out, it is the 7th largest economy in the world.

What is a "doucheback?" Go Bruins!

Isn't California next to Hollywood and Beverly Hills were all the movie stars live?

1:50
... or they were no-offered by their summer firm and 3l hiring is a crapshoot, even if you have bad grades at nyu. completely believable.

RE:it's not just the non-T14
That NYU degree will always get your resume read, so dont dispair. Since when did they start even ranking people?

I'm a USC grad on my second top-tier firm. Both on the 160 pay scale. Anyone who doubts UCLA's or USC's ability to produce grads who work in BigLaw is mistaken.

I'm no doucheback, though. Nice.

2:24:
"Douchebacks?" That paints a pretty picture...

In response to 1:39 - I think location and alumni can play a HUGE role in landing Biglaw out of anything lower than the T14. I work in a biglaw NYC firm with a couple of NYLS partners and we routinely fill the ranks with 3L hires from NYLS/Brooklyn etc - and from what i know these aren't just the top 5%.

As for the GULC '07 grad without a job- he just didn't play the cards right. EVERYONE i know in my class who wanted a biglaw job got one, maybe not all in the NYC/DC $160k markets, but most of us would rather work for $125k (or whatever it is these days) in Atlanta or Miami than $55k as a contract lawyer in Manhattan. And I'm talking about some people who didn't even have a 3.0 GPA going into OCI - most of my friends were in the middle third of the class. The trick was to apply to the firms that routinely take people from the middle and bottom of GULC - and if you go into Career Services with your OCI bid list they will point you in the right direction (i think there are rules about being able to outright say it, but they strongly hint). You just have to listen. The only person I know of who didn't get the Biglaw job was the tool who was at best top third but ONLY applied to the likes of wachtell and cravath.

I was middle of the class at best, on one of the crappy journals and got several offers - sure from firms in the bottom of the V100, but they pay the bills (top of the market in NYC/Boston where the firms were located).

"Has any law school ever tried to help graduates secure job with smaller firms? "

Small firms don't hire en mass. What do you want the law school to do, call every little firm in town on behalf of every crappy 3L and see if they can squeeze open one extra spot for someone with a great personality?

For the record, I'm at a tier-2 and I loathe the CDO, but you have to be realistic and understand that those people really can't do anything for you other than help with your resume or give a "how to interview" seminar.

I'm graduating from GMU next semester. OCI on campus is decent if you're top 5-10% besides that, other students struggle. Even within the top 5-10% you need to venture outside OCI if you want to get into Vault top-20 firms.

That being said, I have an offer to join a Vault top-20 firm upon graduation and know a few other students as well. Summer recruiting was great, with tons of callbacks and offers to join many vault top-100 firms in DC.

The bottom line is at a school like GMU, you need to be highly ranked, fairly personable and looking to stay within the DC area. If you have those attributes, getting a biglaw job is not too tough. If you don't contract work may be the best you can hope for.

this is ridiculous, obviously people in the bottom of the class at gulc who want biglaw will be disappointed. gulc people dont need to defend their school like this, there is no shame in saying that NOT EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PERSON AT A T14 WHO WANTS BIGLAW WILL GET IT

Doucheback? Is that a douchebag from Mexico?

No Clue, you're spot on. I went to a top-20 school and am well aware of the salary/prestige propaganda associated with the largest firms. After some exposure to the realities of law firm life, what percentage of law students actually are dead-set on going to NYC, DC, etc., and working crazy hours to earn a salary that, while facially high, simply puts the recipient into the same general position relative to the rest of the local economy as one would be earning significantly less in a smaller market with significantly lower costs of living? From my experience, significant numbers of my classmates were more interested in specific smaller or regional markets for reasons such as quality of life, proximity to family and the like. I don't begrudge anyone who makes the whole biglaw thing their goal, but it certainly is not everyone's goal.

Bump to 1:06.

Are a lot of the readers of this blog law STUDENTS? I work in BIGLAW as a legal secretary. Before you make fun of me, I make more than most attys in SMALL LAW.

You all make BIGLAW sound like some unattainable nirvana. Many people in BIGLAW are clamoring to get out, or trapped by the golden handcuffs. When it is super busy it can be a miserable existence with no sleep and no life.

When it is slow people are extremely nervous waiting for the shoe to drop hard.

More people on the inside are concerned about getting OUT. Summer Associate lunches and baseball aside it can be a HARD grinding atmosphere.

"Top 10 is what matters. The bottom third of GULC and Northwestern are screwed."

No, not screwed - just running the chances of not getting BigLaw (but it does happen - one of my friends at GULC got hired by LeBoeuf with a 2.8 = btm 1/3).

"If you are graduating NYU at any spot and you don;t have a job you must drool on yourself during interviews.. or give off a malodorous offensive stench... "

This, however, I'm inclined to agree with, in possibly different (and more civil) words. An NYU grad is ALMOST ALWAYS guaranteed a BigLaw job. That being said, I knew a Columbia grad who didn't get a BigLaw job - but then again, he was something of a freak.

Don't you think you are perpetuating the stigma of tier 2 grads with these types of posts?

This is all so insane. On the one hand, the posts and comments on this site bemoan the life of biglaw associates -- how much it totally sucks, how everyone wants out, how addicted to the money and scared people are to leave. On the other hand, so many of the comments here have the attitude that anyone is lucky to get a biglaw job and that's the whole point of going to law school. I think it's all illustrative of the self-loathing of so many lawyers. It's like, I hate my life, but at least I'm not YOU! And that might make people feel just a little better about their misery. Sad, just sad.

People need to learn how to use "me" and "I" and stop using "myself". Stop saying "people like myself" and start using the more proper "people like me". You sound like Michael Vick trying to speak proper English.

I agree, 2:46. It reminds me of an old song..."Nice work if you can get it; if you can get it, won't you tell me how?"

Google to 600!

BTW what does URM stand for?

2:56: Huzzah!

Lat can we have a thread on the relative prestige of government jobs... I realize that DOJ and SEC are tops... but what about after that IRS? other agencies? state attorney generals...

since this is where many of the non-top tier folks will end up I think this would be a valuable thread

Lat can we have a thread on the relative prestige of government jobs... I realize that DOJ and SEC are tops... but what about after that IRS? other agencies? state attorney generals...

since this is where many of the non-top tier folks will end up I think this would be a valuable thread

I object to the title of this post. The NYU 3l is no outlier. I went to a law school that was more highly ranked than NYU, and a fair number of people graduated without jobs. The contract attorney pool is well populated by graduates of BU, Georgetown and many other top schools. Many have multiple graduate degrees and can talk and write circles around associates. People do this work for many reasons, including as a transition between careers, while starting one's own business/firm on the side. During the last recession, laid off associates from top ten firms were fighting each other for $19 / hr jobs.

To the commenter who thinks contract attorneys make $55 k, you are way off base. They can easily make double that.
The work that contract attorneys do is not dramatically different from what junior associates do, and if you do the math, the $/hr breakdown is not that much better for associates.

Lat can we have a thread on the relative prestige of government jobs... I realize that DOJ and SEC are tops... but what about after that IRS? other agencies? state attorney generals...

since this is where many of the non-top tier folks will end up I think this would be a valuable thread

Lat can we have a thread on the relative prestige of government jobs... I realize that DOJ and SEC are tops... but what about after that IRS? other agencies? state attorney generals...

since this is where many of the non-top tier folks will end up I think this would be a valuable thread

Lat can we have a thread on the relative prestige of government jobs... I realize that DOJ and SEC are tops... but what about after that IRS? other agencies? state attorney generals...

since this is where many of the non-top tier folks will end up I think this would be a valuable thread

It's interesting to see these numbers, but no one is giving a historical perspective. The economy is relatively good right now, at least for law firms. I graduated about 00 from a t25 school, and the halls still echoed with horror stories from the dreaded late eighties/ early nineties. This period was especially bad for grads from my ls (in the midwest). Top 10% were settling, top 25% were scrambling, and everyone else was hopeless.
If it's bad for you now, it can get a lot worse all up and down the ranks.

Most government agencies require top 25%, maybe 30% in some cases, to just get an interview. So those jobs are almost as competitive as biglaw. It matters less which school you go to, though.

Something about "minorities", I think.

Which firms are considered BigLaw?

And what does the "V" in V100 stand for?

And the "t" in t14?

And I know "OCI", but what's "CDO"?

One more: "GULC"?

Oh, and one last one: "stfu"?

"FB" of course, stands for Fat Bitch. I'm the SA (whatever that means) who slugged that guy. I think I was an SA, anyways. I have a distinct memory of being told that I was by some guy at the Pasadena Ritz.

What about that federal judge in Florida with the great tits? How does she fit in to all of this? Her tits are tier 1 all the way...

Law schools rank? That's just mean.

I went to AU and all my friends ended up at AM100 firms or other large firms. Did they all go through OCI? No.

And while a lot of us didn't apply to GULC or GM, no one ever applied to GMU. You've got to be kidding me that, even with its ranking, you think GMU has the type of goodwill in DC or NYC that AU has. Not even close.

What's a troll?

AU is junk... I'd rather go to GMU or William and Mary (but no one looking at AU would get into W&M)...

I am a 2L at NYU. I have multiple 160 offers from NY, San Fran, DC, LA, and Bos. I am having a tough time deciding which one to accept as the pressure to accept from the firms is racheting. I feel sad for those posting here who can't get real jobs. The best advice i can give is to try to be positive and upbeat. As they say, when life hands you a lemon, just make lemonade! Best of luck to all.

12:50

AU, Catholic and UDC are Washington's safety schools. They place well in government, but I wouldn't bet my career on a degree from these schools.

GULC is the absolute leader when it comes to DC law schools and likelihood of professional success.

GW is a distant second, with great placement within DC for the top 25% of its class.

GMU is third, not as distant from GW as it once was. Definitely within the same class as GW (though again, GULC is in another league, i.e. T-14).

I am a1L at NYU and I have multiple offers for 190 but I'm also a d-bag. There is no point to this post. Ijust wanted to say it.

i am at a school ranked in the 70's, got a summer gig with biglaw, got an offer with big law. in the top 20%, law review, published, littel pre lawschool experience.

I think it depends on where you are. My state ahs two law schools. One is OK, mine is pretty bad. But the big firms want to keep appearances with the local schools, all two of them, so they regularly hire, regardless of the schools ranking.

Another anecdote - my dad graduated top ten from boalt in the 70's. wanted to some to my current state to work, got a few interviews, but all of them said, "we like to hire from the local schools." So he went back to california and secured a big law job there.

Just saying that where you are really matters. Third tier in new york, good luck. Third teir in Montana, looking allright...

GULC is Georgetown University Law Center.

3:37 - while you might not have considered applying to GMU, the school is gaining quite the reputation among conservatives.

I am former biglaw and currently a career federal law clerk. I agree with the comments of the legal secretary above. When I was at my old firm I spent much of my free time fantasizing about somehow getting OUT of that incredibly tedious and pretentious organization. I will clerk for a magistrate judge before I go back to biglaw again.

So it's kind of funny seeing all these bright-eyed and bushy-tailed law students clamoring to get INTO biglaw. Watch what you wish for- you just might get it.

OK, I teach at a school that is more often than not ranked in the 3rd tier by US News, although we have cracked into 2nd tier a few times since those rankings began - but not recently, despite significant improvements recently in our bar passage rate.

Anyway, our Career Services director presented statistics to the faculty recently based on an aggressive outreach campaign to reach as many recent alumni as possible to attempt to give us a realistic picture of where our grads are ending up, and the results are quite interesting.

The last class for which we have nearly complete figures is the class of 2006. They were able to get enough info on employment to classify 92% of that class. Out of all the graduates (not just out of the 92%), 52%, just over half, were employed in "private law firms". of whom at least 15% of the class were working in firms of 100+ lawyers, and most of those were in Biglaw firms (i.e., over 250 lawyers). There was a group that were determined to be in private firms but we could not ascertain the size of the firm in order to classify it - which to me suggests they were undoubtedly smaller firms.

Another 12% were in government jobs, 5% in clerkships, 6% in public interest, and 18% in "business" jobs. We were told that contract attorneys were classified as being in "business" jobs because they were employees of businesses rather than of law firms. Nobody in the class of 2006 group reported being in a solo practice. Because we have an evening division, we frequently have the phenomenon of people coming to school to get a JD who don't plan to practice law, but who value the JD for the job they are doing, such as investment banking, law enforcement, or upper-level management in a corporation.

So - here is a statistical picture of the employment distribution of a recent graduating class of a third-tier school.

What lessons to draw from it? For a small percentage of the graduating class of a third-tier school, located in a major metropolitan area (one of the really big ones), it is possible for students at the top of the class to land positions at the big firms, and it is possible for most of the class to find a job practicing law either in a private firm or a government agency within a year and a half of graduation. The proportion of those employed at Biglaw firms earning the kind of dough necessary to pay off student loans while living reasonably well is, unfortunately, much smaller than we would like it to be.

The career services office had less definitive data on salaries, but that data seemed to show that those who could not get Biglaw jobs were struggling with salaries that make it difficult to pay off loans while supporting yourself, leaving us to speculate how they are doing it.

Ohh! Ohh! Is 4:03 at Catholic?

So 85% of the 2006 graduates who responded were having trouble paying loans and supporting themselves. And who knows about the 8% who left your school only a year ago but have apparantly fallen off the face of the earth.

Does the school still act as if the world only revolves around big law or has the school and career developement office started to realize that the vast majority of people do not work for large firms.

Go to the Midwest or South and work for 90k, buy a mansion for 120k, spend time with friends and family, and forget about biglaw. You'll come out with more $ and sanity in the end.

4:03 --

You speak the sad truth of less than accurate law school marketing.

Most students go into law school thinking of $160K salaries at prestigious firms. Schools milk these unrealistic expectations through ever-higher tuition.

The result? An ever increasing profession of jaded attorneys living paycheck-to-paycheck and sometimes struggling to make ends meet.

I blame the LSAC and NALP in part for perpetuating the myth that a law degree is a license to print money. The reality is that most lawyers will never rise above your average middle class salary. If expectations reflected that reality, I think we'd see lower tuition, less debt and overall a better profession.

Is it Suffolk? (no haha suffolk is 4th tier silly)

I have found you can significantly supplement your income by selling cocaine to T-14 attorneys.

concur w/ Supplement it:

"In this country,first you get the money, then you get the power,THEN you get the woman."

rush rush to the yayo

Thank you Mr. Montana. Watch out for Frank- he is working against you. Although his wife, the Lady Tiger, is pretty hot. I also think your boy is banging your sister...

Tony's sister is way hotter than his wife.

Curious, you are correct that Biglaw associates may be nice to contract attorneys to their faces, but also 100% right about the perception of many Biglaw associates that contract work is reserved only for lazy and stupid attorneys who couldn't get into Biglaw and wouldn't succeed if they ever did. When I was working with several contract lawyers on a project last year, I was surprised to discover that I was the only associate on the project who even bothered to learn the contract attorneys' names. The quality of the work of the contract attorneys varied, just as it usually does with Biglaw associates. In one case, my firm offered a permanent position to a contract attorney (yes, this actually happened, but I think it's a rare exception and not the rule), while there were recurring problems with the work of some of the "career contract attorney" types who work long hours to get lots of overtime pay, but who don't necessarily care about the quality or accuracy of their work. Most of the contract attorneys seemed reasonably intelligent, but since there's not much of a "learning curve" with contract jobs, someone who has been doing contract work since law school often will not have the practical skills that one usually picks up as a junior associate. In other words, if you aren't exceptionally bright and weren't born with good instincts, you certainly won't pick up good lawyering skills doing contract work, due to the nature of the projects.

Everyone keeps mentioning GULC, GW, GMU, AU and Catholic. But what about William and Mary? How does William and Mary do in terms of OCI and recruiting and placement at biglaw DC and biglaw NY? Do you have to be in the top 25% + journal to even get an on campus interview for biglaw DC? Is biglaw NY even harder? How many biglaw firms even recruit on W&M campus?

WM is certainly worse than GW for DC; stricter requirements and fewer interviewers go there. WM students might have better luck with Richmond firms, but it's slim picking there.

I just got accepted to NYU law and I already have partnership offers from all the top 20 biglaw firms. Life is great!

How are the on campus interviews at WM? I read on this thread that AU only got like 5 V100 firms...pretty similar at WM? And do the firms only look for top 25 or top 1/3rd + journal at W&M?

Note to self:

Don't go to crappy law school (ie non-T14)

4:03:
A key portion of your post caught my eye:
"and it is possible for most of the class to find a job practicing law either in a private firm or a government agency within a year and a half of graduation" A year and a half!!!??!? That is insane. So they've been making NO MONEY AT ALL FOR 18 MONTHS after graduation. That is truly depressing.

Everyone keeps mentioning GULC, GW, GMU, AU and Catholic. But what about William and Mary? How does William and Mary do in terms of OCI and recruiting and placement at biglaw DC and biglaw NY? Do you have to be in the top 25% + journal to even get an on campus interview for biglaw DC? Is biglaw NY even harder? How many biglaw firms even recruit on W&M campus?

I know a few pretty sharp WM grads at DOJ. Don't know anyone in DC biglaw from WM.

Response to curious ( 4:31)--what "practical" / "good" lawyering skills do you pick up doing the same work as or managing contract attorneys? How about when you are cooped up in your office writing memos as a fungible billing unit? Reading blogs doesn't count. I'm sure you are proficient in Blackberry usage, but that's about it.

"In my experience, associates are generally very nice to contract/staff attorneys--- to their faces. However, in private, associates make it clear that they would NEVER take such work and that those who do must be either lazy or stupid, (or both) or simply unwilling to accept work as an associate in a smaller form or one located outside of Manhattan. Associates generally agree (implicitly or otherwise) that contract/staff attorneys’ work is incompetent and unreliable. Also, associates tend to agree that working as contract/staff attorney for anything longer than three months destroys a new lawyer’s ability to ever become an associate at any “real” firm."
---------------------------------------------
I think the same complaints could be made by partners or senior associates about junior associates' work. Contract attorneys operate under the threat of employment-at-will at its most extreme, so if there is an issue with the quality of their work, a competent firm would have a mechanism for screening it out and firing the bad apples. Associates, on the other hand, can ride the gravy chain for years. For every story about an associate sleeping on the floor of his/her office on a regular basis, there is a story about an associate closing the door to a single office and watching dvds or napping all day. I wonder what the source is of the three month do-or-die figure. If one graduates without a job, it takes more than three months for the bar results to come out. What do you propose people do? If firms were smart, they would replace junior associates with contract attorneys to save money.

I graduated Vandy '06, middle of the class (between 40th and 60th). I'm now doing contract work in DC. I have several peers with similar stats to mine who could not crack BigLaw. Sure, many Biglaws come to Vandy's OCI, but if you aren't top 33%, you're lucky to get a BigLaw offer.

Which Nova sucks more:
1. http://www.law.villanova.edu/
or
2. http://www.nsulaw.nova.edu/

?

Unless you are doing it to make easy cash in the process of leaving law practice altogether, you have absolutely hit rock bottom if you are a contract attorney. You learn nothing, do completely repetitive work, and all future legal employers know it. I would be greatly disinclined to hire anyone who did such work without a pretty interesting explanation.

And why go to law school anyway if this is what you are going to do? Corporations are full of people who make money filling out the ol' TPS reports. Why get law school debt to do no better?

"middle of the class (between 40th and 60th)"

So what you're saying is that your resume reads "upper 60%."

Contract attorneys will be the first to go with (a) the credit crunch and (b) offshoring legal (mindless) work to India.

If only they'd been auto workers they could have the UAW on their side!

Lat, we really need a thread to discuss the job insecurities of the T8-T13 people who are in the T14 but weren't good enough to make the T7 cut. What are we gonna do for jobs??? The T7 grads are really beating us T8-T14ers for all the good biglaw spots!!!

Seriously, the tier subdivisional crap here is simply ridiculous.

I am the GW2L that wrote the first non-T14 post and would like to say it is quite interesting that the experiences outside T14 are so similar. Personally, I have a BigLaw NY 160k job, but wish a thread like this had been on my reading list before choosing a law school. (Lat you should link this for law applicants from the homepage as a steady link.)

And I am sure I am not alone. There are people floating in the middle of GW that turned down G-town for one reason or another. Turns out, for OCI, that was a poor choice. Who knew prior to learning about OCI that spending 3 years in Ithaca would be more beneficial than a school ranked just a bit below and in a major city?

Anyway, this thread should be required reading for those scoring upper-160s on the LSAT. It is extremely accurate and informative in deciding where to apply. If you can go T14 and you want to be sure to make the advertised legal career money, sacrifice 3 years, and go where the T14s dictate.

Spot on 1:06 and 1:31, spot on.