secondary

That's what you get when you go to a not t-14 law school and don't finish top of your class

third

I plead the FIFTH!

Please do a post about the amount of debt incurred by law students. I read the Des Moines Register article linked above and saw "student loans balances that can exceed $200,000."

What law school costs $67,000/year? What am I missing?

I am a 2L at a Tier 3/4. I anticipate my debt after law school to be about $15,000. Without scholarship it would have been about $60,000. But I can't imagine any law student having $200,000 of debt.

I also have a summer associate position for 2008 with a guarantee of employment after graduation for $105,000 in a large midwest city. So when I hear the cries of large debt and no jobs I am confused.

Please shed some light on this topic for me.

I went to law school at the top-tier University of Iowa, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.

According to the article, "The U of I has connections with several prominent firms in New York that hire U of I law graduates in the top half of their classes and pay them upward of $180,000 a year." What NY firm pays 180 a year, and what firm that pays that wants someone from the top half of Iowa?

Iowa grads to 190K!

All of the NY firms that are prestigious enough to hire Iowa grads pay $180k. Top half is the cutoff for those jobs. Jobs that pay $160k only get people from the bottom half of the class.

Iowa grads to 190K!

If you don't get any scholarships and bring in undergraduate debt, you can hit 200k in debt pretty easily.

Upward of $180K a year = salary + bonus.

If they were including bonuses, why not say upwards of 300k? Oh yeah...because Wachtell would never hire anyone from Iowa.

It's not all $200K from law school - I know a lot of my friends from law school came in with $50K+ from undergrad (or a prior Master's degree); add that to three years of law school, with interest, and it's not hard to hit $200K. (Maybe a ridiculous decision, depending on your job prospects, but not hard to do.)

3:06 -

Take a look at a school like Fordham, Tuition is 39K a year, room/board another 16K, those two alone will get you to 55K a year, add in books and entertainment and you're getting pretty far up there.

If you go to law school and don't get a scholarship...you are dumb.

Also, if you go to law school with undergrad debt...even dumber.

Get a real job, get some experience, make some money. At least then when you counsel clients you will no what you are talking about. Law school doesn't teach you #@#$ about how to BE a lawyer that represents clients. It teaches how to think link an asshole. Clients pay for answers to tough questions and solutions to tough problems...not theories about tort or the constitution.

What shitty editing (in the TX article):

“As far as firms are concerned, you have to pay (associates) less than your bringing in to keep the doors open.”

3:25 - Law school did teach me the difference between "no" and "know."

And my innate talents taught me the difference between "link" and "like." And as far as thinking like an asshole, I'm a natural.

Iowa Law Rocks! I'm there, I'm in the top half, and I got a great job! People love and respect me now, and I owe it all to Iowa Law!

Take that, L2L.

"Clients pay for answers to tough questions and solutions to tough problems...not theories about tort or the constitution"

And how do you think lawyers answer those "tough" questions and provide those "tough" solutions? If either is sufficiently "tough", you just might need to think "link [sic] an asshole".

I'm sure your TTT gave you a generous scholarship. Hopefully you have enough school left to get something out of it.

Where is L2L anyway?

Me: $30k undergrad + $130 law
Spouse: $100k masters + $40k PhD

That's $300k in principal, on one biglaw associate's + one academic's ($50k?)income. We'll likely be paying $3k/mo once all of our loans enter repayment next fall.

I'm not thrilled, but there are worse fates.

there are risks with any investment. if you invest 200k in your education, but mess it up by a) choosing the wrong school (or failing to get in to the right school), or b) getting bad grades once you arrive...then that's the risk you take.

additionally, while i feel for students who's debt load is tremendous coming out of law school, there are ways to minimize your payments up front. if you work hard at developing your career, eventually you will make enough money to get rid of your debt. obviously not as good as handling it with a BIGLAW salary, buy possible.

i think too many law students on this page, and elsewhere, forget that becoming a lawyer is a marathon not a track meet. if you mess up in school, you still have a chance to make it up after you get out by being a good attorney and building a reputation/client base who will care less about your degree and how you perform for them.

"but" not "buy" at end of 2nd paragraph

NY to 190!

3:06 - I'm $240k+ in debt, that includes college and working 30+ hours a week to pay the bills. Add my wife's law school bills and we're at $360k.

Houston to 180K!

FTD to 9/hr!

3:36 - on point

3:25 - unlike your TTT, most good law schools cost more than $35K, close to $40K even, for tuition alone. add another close to $20K for living expenses, i.e., room, board, and EVERYTHING ELSE, and you are at $55K easy. that puts you at $165K+ after three years, but that is only principle. add to that, the obviously unfamiliar concept of, compound interest, which i am not going to explain to you here (wikipedia is your friend). what i will tell you is, at the end of 3 years, it is not difficult to leave law school $200K in debt (and that is figuring 0 undergrad debt), especially if you don't go to a TTT, where tuition is $20K per year or whatever you said earlier.

All of us who went to excellent undergrad and law schools are in a lot of debt. Anyone in a T1 (maybe even T2) law school is in quite a lot of debt. The only people who are not in debt are the ones in no-name law schools that nobody has heard of. Those no-names are the only ones that give out scholarhsips (I am not counting extraordinary circumstances/applicants at top law schools).

Please do not take this as "anyone who doesn't go to T1 is stupid". I am not referring to anybody's ability, just the tuition.

I know I am very much in the $200K+ range, but not sure how much +. I went to Top 20 undergrad (got a lot of grants but wasn't enough), and T1 law school (after summer job they are not giving me any grants). I am hoping that I can pay these loans off in 2-3 years after I start working at my firm.

4:34, my hat is off to you.

FTD to 9/hr!

I'm at about $100k (no UG debt, partial LS scholarship) and it still sucks. Much of that is on 0% credit cards because the law schools set the housing budgets so damn low. Though I've paid $9,000 of my CC bills off in the past three weeks. Viva biglaw...

edit to 4:34 post:

principle = principal

my bad.

4:37

I am an '04 grad of a T1 law school. Graduated with just under $80k in debt. I never had any scholarships. I consolidated as soon as I graduated & my loans are amortized over 30 years.

My interest rate just dropped to 1.65%, since I've made enough consecutive payments on time. My monthly loan payment is ~$250. I work in DC biglaw. I look at my monthly loan payment as a nuisance. Given the low interest rate, I have no incentive to consolidate (I earn more on my money in a savings account, even after taxes).

It can be done.

Another poor 22 year old has his/her life ruined by the scam known as tier 2 law schools.

The most interesting thing I've learned from this experience is that the legal profession is corrupt.

I'll point out to people that I was misled into investing 3 years and $150,000 for a worthless degree, and all they say in response is:

"Sucker."

"You should have been more careful."

or

"You went to Loyola. You're not worth more than $15/hour."

My school's Dean, when asked says:

"We don't guarantee that our graduates will get jobs."

It's evident that our profession no longer cares if people get ripped off. Rather than be outraged, they point and laugh. These are the people protecting consumers, and upholding fairness and law and order in our society. It's no wonder why lawyers have such a terrible reputation.

3:25, "If you go to law school and don't get a scholarship...you are dumb." How strong is the meth you guys smoking out there in the middle of the country? Must be pretty strong, because the better the law school you go to, the less likely you'll be offered a scholarship. See, I got offered a scholarship to a Tier 2 school, but I would never go there. So instead, I went to a top law school WITHOUT a scholarship. And now for the rest of my life I get to say I went to a great law school and you get to say you went to a shitty one. Who's dumb now, asshole? Make sure you tell them about your partial scholarship though - that'll impress 'em!

L2L-

"The most interesting thing I've learned from this experience is that the legal profession is corrupt." (emphasis added, in my mind, on "corrupt").

Nothing in the rest of your diatribe supports this claim. Lacking compassion, maybe, but corrupt? Easy on the hyperbole.

People need to think ahead and be realistic about loans and job prospects. I went to a Big Ten undergrad for less than 20K for all four years. I turned down better schools with little to no scholarships because I knew I could do well and have good opportunities from the in-state school. Then I went to a top 20 law school. Luckily, I didn't have to take out a ton in loans. However, if I'd had to take out 100K in loans for law school, I would have chosen a differnt school. I probably would have gone to a tier one public law school and worked really hard to make sure I got a decent job because I knew that coming out of a top 20 school didn't gurantee me six figures. Luckily things worked out - I got to go to a top 20 school, not take out a ton in loans and still make 160K. But I was realistic throughout the process and always weighed my options.

Lets see what the Loyola job board has for us today. Ooh a Beverly Hills firm! They must pay a livable salary. Let me start reading. Boy I can't wait until I get to the salary part. *reads eagerly*

Employer Name: xxx
Contact Name: xxx/Head of Firm
Address: xxx
City: xxx
Telephone: xxx
Facsimile: xxx
E-Mail: xxx
Description: HOURS: Approximately 15-20 hours per week. Need someone who can begin work later in the day. Ideal hours would be from 1:00pm-8:00pm. Candidates must also be able to work 4-5 hours on one weekend day. SALARY: $18.00 per hour to start. JOB DESCRIPTION: Looking for a student to clerk in a law firm, with lots of office experience to start immediately. Prior office experience a plus. The position pays $18.00 per hour to start, with raises as the student becomes more productive. 15-20 hours per week, often with 4-5 hours on one weekend day. May potentially lead to summer position. HOW TO APPLY: Please submit resume via e-mail.
Date Entered: 10/18/07
Job ID: 418763

L2L-

OMG!!!!!! who would have thought you might have to work hard for a little while for only $18/hr before you make six-figures? g-d forbid!!!!!!

3:23 - You had to wait until law school to learn the difference between "no" and "know"?

5:03 - Know, I new it before.

I think Loyola 2L makes a very good point in their 4:48 post. A law school, being somewhat insulated from the marketplace, and espousing to the higher ideals that law entails, should be truthful regarding a person's job prospects after graduation.

A disclaimer such as "we do not guarantee jobs" is hollow and meaningless because such disclaimers are made in the abstract without truthful facts to bring home the reality of that disclaimer.

The law is a profession, and I believe that the prefix "profess", included in teh word professional, means that people who claim that title should to profess something and should be held to higher standards than other people, and should be truthful. In that regard, law schools have failed to live up to the idea of being truthful and training professionals be not being professionals themselves.

Studying more & reading blogs less FTW!

Undergrad-State College
Law School-t 50 but definitely not t14
Current salary- $160,000
Debt-$25,000

A couple of bonuses and I will be debt free.

"OMG!!!!!! who would have thought you might have to work hard for a little while for only $18/hr before you make six-figures? g-d forbid!!!!!!"

Lets replace one lie (work hard for three years in law school and you'll get a good job) with another (work hard in that shitty job for a few years and it will turn into a good job.)

Again it comes down to a lack of integrity; a lack of respect for the truth. The people who are supposed to uphold fairness and justice in society are corrupt. They're the first ones to mock those who get ripped off.

"Studying more & reading blogs less FTW!"

I study more than anyone I know. Unfortunately at Loyola the professor's don't test your knowledge. Rather, they test your ability to guess what whimsical thought is in their head during the 5 minutes they "grade" your exam.

But I'm sure you're right. The five minutes I spent writing this post is why I'm in massive debt, but without any way to pay it off and live above poverty.

"Studying more & reading blogs less FTW!"

I study more than anyone I know. Unfortunately at Loyola the professors don't test your knowledge. Rather, they test your ability to guess what whimsical thought is in their head during the 5 minutes they "grade" your exam.

But I'm sure you're right. The five minutes I spent writing this post is why I'm in massive debt, but without any way to pay it off and live above poverty.

"Studying more & reading blogs less FTW!"

I study more than anyone I know. Unfortunately at Loyola the professors don't test your knowledge. Rather, they test your ability to guess what whimsical thought is in their head during the 5 minutes they "grade" your exam.

But I'm sure you're right. The five minutes I spent writing this post is why I'm in massive debt, but without any way to pay it off and live above poverty.

"I think Loyola 2L makes a very good point in their 4:48 post. A law school, being somewhat insulated from the marketplace, and espousing to the higher ideals that law entails, should be truthful regarding a person's job prospects after graduation."

The problem is schools aren't insulated from the marketplace. A law school is just a bunch of top school grads trying to earn a salary. Some went right into academia. Some were biglaw washouts. They all need a paycheck - just like anyone else. Sadly, they will lie to prospective students to get that paycheck.

By the way, I'm top 25% for any prospective law students reading this exchange. Don't get the impression that people like me are in the minority at tier 2 law schools. We're not. Save yourselves.

What is Loyola ranked? At Houston (T2 -60) if you are top 20-25% you still have a decent shot a big law (top 15% for certain). I would assume that the LA and Houston markets aren't all that different.

L2L-

are you sure you don't just lack decent cover letter and resume writing skills? how about your interviewing skills? HTH.

"are you sure you don't just lack decent cover letter and resume writing skills? how about your interviewing skills?"

Career services writes your cover letter, and they also make it clear that you have no chance at getting an interview at a firm paying good salaries if you're not top 10% - so interview skills are moot. The non-top 10%ers are shown the job board.

If you're a 0L who thinks a magic cover letter and interview charm will make up for not being top 10% at a tier 2 - that's just not how it works.

"What is Loyola ranked? At Houston (T2 -60) if you are top 20-25% you still have a decent shot a big law (top 15% for certain). I would assume that the LA and Houston markets aren't all that different."

I really don't know anything about other tier 2 schools. I've heard at Brooklyn you only need to be top 25% for a good job too. Good for you if that's true at Houston.

One thing I'll note though, is you have to be very careful where you get this information. At Loyola we were also told things like that. At Loyola they said top 1/2 of the class get great jobs, and the bottom half get OK jobs (not fantastic but definitely worth the effort of law school.)

So if you know a bunch of top 25% Houstoners with offers at good firms, too many to be an anomaly, then that's great. But if it's your school's admin saying that, be very suspicious.

"And now for the rest of my life I get to say I went to a great law school and you get to say you went to a shitty one. Who's dumb now, asshole?" --4:49

Um, you're dumb asshole. The rest of my life, I get to say, "I'm not a cocky bastard." You can't make that claim.

I agree 3:27. Going to a good law school means nothing if you don't parlay it into something worthwhile.

A lot of my professors went to good law schools, but all they could do with that degree was scam naive 22 year olds.

I would like to see a post from a Loyola grad who graduated less than top 25%who has a good job now or a post from a Loyola student in that range who has a good job offer for when they graduate. I bet there is someone out there.

l2l--

why does career services write your cover letter?

"If you're a 0L who thinks a magic cover letter and interview charm will make up for not being top 10% at a tier 2 - that's just not how it works."

I was a t2 1L, but transfered and am now at a top20. i have a biglaw job in NYC, but i was top 10%, so i am sure that is why. but, i know a few people at my old school who were top 25-33% and got good paying jobs - not biglaw, but jobs with midsize to large firms paying 6 figs in secondary markets. it is doable, you need to be assertive instead of passively aggressively posting on blogs about your hurt feelings. HTH.

Not everyone is cut out to be top 10% at law school. One out of every two is going to be bottom of the class.

No matter how arbitrary the grading may be, people manage to retain their spots at the top of the class. Learn how to take a final... hell order LEEWS off of ebay if you have to. Bitching about it will get you nowhere- go out into the legal community and throw an application out to everyone you can think of. Did you bite the bullet and apply for a judicial internship to at least meet the lawyers in your area? In other words- try to make the best of the situation you didn't go to t14.

Are you going to score 160k starting? Probably not (although some people I know at my certainly not t14 school did), but if you have the skills go out and prove it at your first job.

so, given the incredibly huge alumni trust funds held by Harvard, Yale etc etc - the interest on which is enough to give every student attending a free education - why is it that these colleges dont reduce their fees?

Yes, supply and demand, plenty of people are willing to pay. But a college is not there to make a profit. What about schemes such as - work in a government post for 3 years (or legal aid or an overseas aid organisation etc) and we will get reduce/abolish your debt? Or hundreds of other ways in which a college that doesn't need the money can contribute to the wider community.

"One thing I'll note though, is you have to be very careful where you get this information. At Loyola we were also told things like that. At Loyola they said top 1/2 of the class get great jobs, and the bottom half get OK jobs (not fantastic but definitely worth the effort of law school.)

So if you know a bunch of top 25% Houstoners with offers at good firms, too many to be an anomaly, then that's great. But if it's your school's admin saying that, be very suspicious."

Partners from 2 AM-100 firms told me this, as did 2 and 3L that either did OCI or have been given offers

I don't trust career services either

The general rule of thumb is that your total debt should not exceed one year's salary.

The lesson: if you can't get through law school with less than $160k in debt, you probably shouldn't go to law school (and realistically the vast majority of law students won't be making anything close to $160k unless they're either law review or top 50% in T14). In practice, this means taking on more debt than scholarships isn't necessarily a poor decision so long as you're foregoing those scholarships at lower tier schools to attend a highly prestigious one.

Let's be honest, there'd probably be a lot fewer people in law school if prospective lawyers weren't the same naive suckers that were drawn to law school precisely because they had incredibly poor math and finance skills.

How do you rack up $200k in debt? It's pretty easy. Try going to law school with a mortgage and 2 car payments for 3 years. I didn't need any undergrad debt to hit up that $200k figure. It's all good though, two or three years in my biglaw job and a couple of biglaw bonuses and my debt will be no more..

You can point fingers all you want at the law students, but that doesn't alleviate the school administrators from having to take responsibility for the lies they perpetuate.

At the UofI law school, the Dean at that place is living in a fantasy world. The article in the Des Moines Register quotes her as stating that there are NY law firms that hire people from the top half of the class and pay them $180K to start. That is a flat out lie. There is only one law firm in NY that hires UofI grads on anything resembling a regular basis - that would be Willkie Farr - and they at most hire one or two people every couple of years. But, I guess this woman, Carolyn Jones, has to do something to justify the $250K salary she's paid. Don't ask me what she does for that money. Given her horrible communication skills - the woman can't even put together a coherent, well written letter - I'm sure she's doing whatever she can to keep shucking and jiving for that salary.

The people at the UofI law school are perpetuating fraud about the marketplace. As with most law schools, the Career Services Office is a joke; its populated by people who don't have a clue about how to help people connect with the job market, and they don't care. They're making their living off the backs of naive law students. The administrators at that place are only interested in helping lesbians, straight females, gay males, and especially unprepared minorities. If you are a heterosexual white male, and you attend this place, be prepared to be treated like dirt.

The marketplace is slowly waking up, though. Potential law school students are beginning to realize that the overwhelming majority of these schools exist for no reason other than to extract money from uninformed students in order to pay the salaries of these so-called "professors" (in law school, that means people who receive a salary for not teaching, or not doing much of anything else for that matter) and the administrators who are interested only in perpetuating their distorted social agendas.

More stories like this are necessary as the schools refuse to provide honest, accurate information about what happens to their graduates. If even one person decides that going to one of these places is a bad career/financial decisions, it will be worth it. Hopefully, there will be some sort of cumulative effect and more of these law schools will see the end of their existence.

You have to pick a law school relative to the area you want to live and practice outside of the globally known T1-5 schools. I could have gone to upper t10 national schools but chose Fordham Law bc wanted to practive in Manhattan. I have been out for 6 years now (even with a gpa that reflects their draconian grading system) and found the degree a veritable Golden Ticket in terms of prestige, ease and fluidity of employment; especially from the alumni base which is cohesive and in the top ranks of BigLaw.