First

"Bonuses at Kirkland are highly individualized. In this sense, could K&E be the law firm of the future? Evaluate associates according to their individual merits, richly reward the superstars, and dump the underperformers? Might this be a better business model than the traditional "treat unequal associates equally" model of Biglaw?"

This is why I chose K&E, and why I believe it continues to be the best place around to practice law. I would never practice at another firm.

I agree with K&E Associate, and also note that I've gotten half a dozen calls for new deals this week - it certainly doesn't feel like things are slowing down.

Very few people don't cut it once here, but if you're not getting the job done and pulling your weight, I have no problem with the firm showing you the door (and a few days, let alone months, is more than enough time for any K&E associate to find another job).

"the most minimal of billable requirements"

What is this number?

What exactly are the "mean number of hours" at Kirkland? How many billable hours does it take to get a "good" rating? How many gets you the "really behind the class" rating?

Less than 2000 will put you behind the class. 2200 is considered the average for the associate (NY and Chicago) and 2400 for people to start considering you a superstar. Those numbers would be fairly accurate for junior associates. Add another hundred hours each year starting from the 4th year. You literally have to bill around 3000 for you to be considered for share partnership.

Less than 2000 will put you behind the class. 2200 is considered the average for the associate (NY and Chicago) and 2400 for people to start considering you a superstar. Those numbers would be fairly accurate for junior associates. Add another hundred hours each year starting from the 4th year. You literally have to bill around 3000 for you to be considered for share partnership.

This would be like Harvard kicking out the bottom 10% of its class. Who would want to attend Harvard, if they got into Yale, and Yale didn't similarly prune its class?

I'd hate to have an offer for the summer at K & E.

This is why you should never present your back to a Kirkland associate. Skadden associates go through the Servant's Entrance, Kirkland associates go through the metal detector.

Lat, what is your deal with K&E? Your first post was received as it should have been: nobody cared about your total non-story. But if at first you don't succeed, post and post again? Nice job with the Latham non-layoff, layoff rumor, too. You reported on a rumor which, according to your own post, was false. But who cares, as long as it allows you to create another "nationwide watch" of some sort or another? This is just about the lamest thing I have ever seen.

As for the rest of you who keep feeding this nonsense, you do realize what the end result of Lat's new "nationwide watch" is, don't you? If there were going to be another round of raises, it will bottom-out as soon as the market accepts Lat's myth that our jobs are in jeopardy. Nice job trying to depress the market, buddy.

Where can I get some of the Kool-Aid that all of these K&E associates are drinking?

What are you crazies talking about?

K&E is a very strong regional law firm, but is clearly in a different league than the top New York firms. Top students at top law schools do not even consider K&E. Also, K&E’s profitability is tremendously exaggerated. They have many classes of partners that are excluded from the reported per partner profitability statistics. The average partner at K&E makes substantially less than his or her counterpart at Carvath, S&C, Davis, Simpson etc.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bring back the hot Cuban-American judges, UM law students who model on the side, and sleazy NYC lawyer/talent agents!

8:41,

I don't know where you get your information, but I know plenty of top students at top law schools who seriously consider K&E (along with the firms that you mentioned). With the way you make such conclusory statements, one would think that you have some sort of secret knowledge. Care to enlighten us, oh wise one? Personally, I think you're either bitter or just full of it.

ITT K&E associates fellate each other

"But the number of 303 associates does put things in perspective."

Good thing NALP doesn't have those statistics.

As usual, Lat puts on his shoes before his socks.

Why is superstar status based on hours? Does efficiency count? Does finding the smoking gun count? Well reasoned arguments?

8:21(1), you greatly overestimate Lat's influence on the market.

To clarify, hours are important, but not as important as they are being made to seem.

The most important thing about your evaluation is whether you are below, at or above class, or perhaps top of class. If you are top of class, for example, and have average hours you will get a MUCH higher bonus than if you are at class and have exceptionally high bonus.

Hours are also a proxy in a free market system such as K&E's for the degree to which you are in demand. I think it is important not to conflate the role hours play in a command economy, such as Cravath's, with the role they play at K&E.

8:41:

First, I don't think any serious observer of the legal practice thinks of K&E as a "regional" firm.

Second, there are not "many" levels of partners. There are two, non-equity and equity. You may recognize this structure, as it is used by myriad firms. Although it may be that a 9th or 10th year non-equity partner at K&E makes less than a junior equity partner at one of the firms that you mention (although I don't pretend to have any information on the subject), the flipside is true once you hit year 11, since K&E is not a lockstep partnership.

Kirkland is famous for two things (at least in NY and DC): high associate turnover (especially in corporate) and very high bonuses. Non equity partners work harder than anyone else in the firm.

To think that you "have" to hit 3000 hours to be cosidered for partner is absurd. It's just not worth it at that point. Especially if you have a wife and children. When would you see them?

hahaha, if you are a 2L and were dumb enough to have accepted an offer from K&E good luck, and good bye! You are CBFAM, baby, Can Be Fired Any Minute...

8:41 - douchebag

To propose that K&E is a "regional" firm is absurd. You don't hit the V10 nearly every year as a "regional" firm.

All of this is absolutely ridiculous. If you don't take a job at K&E because you are worried you will be one of the 3% of associates fired in year 3, you are a p*^sy.

I'm sure law firms show people the door all the time. It is the nature of the beast. Something tells me those people "let off" won't be hurting too bad with K&E on their resume. They will probably go to a boutique or in-house, where they will struggle to get by on a $200k a year salary, which, I might add, is about $110k more than the average attorney makes.

Personally, I'm looking forward to working at K&E next summer and then starting my career there, making a nice chunk of change and getting paid a bonus that correlates with my performance and hours.

And, if I can't hack it, I can always waste away my days posting anonymously on legal blogs under the pseudonym Loyola2L.

God, the kirkaland trolls are the worst. I would never want to work at a firm where the associates are so brainwashed that they even defend firm layoffs. Put down the koolaid, youre embarrassing yourselves.

If my firm had even a slight hint of layoffs i would be the first to bash it and rightfully so. This may be because im a regular person and not some firm loving uptight robot.

Forgive my naivety, but how do other firms treat associates who are consistently underperforming or who are submitting a less than desirable work product?

I second all the comments that question wtf is up with K&E associates praising the firm for booting their peers....sounds like Stockholm syndrome.

I also don't think many people would say that K&E is a regional firm. Obviously it is one of the most prominent in the world. And if you are a billable hours gunner, by all means take that extra bonus money while you can.

Most of the time, 11:38, top-tier NYC firms ship underperforming associates out on secondment. No firing necessary. At least, that's what I've heard.

Yep, look forward to the sorry-ass life you'll have, 11:09.

Good law firms are getting better at strategic management. Pruning the herd based on economic cycle and need is something that all well managed firms should be doing. I work very hard at K&E, and in return they pay me very well and are providing an outstanding platform for my development. But if work in my area where to evaporate then yes, I would expect to possibly be whacked despite my wondrous talent and sterling reviews. It's called the price of admission. And it is utter hogwash to think that K&E will suffer in the recruiting wars for gifted young legal talent as a result of its more aggressively managing the herd. The best and brightest will always want to be here. The same holds true for a host of other highly regarded Am Law 100 firms across this country.

2,200 billable hours is what K&E associates aim for. A great number get to 2,400. I've been tracking between 2,300 and 2,600 the last several years. This shouldn't be revelation to anybody who either works or aspires to work at a top shelf Am Law 100 firm.

12:54 is not merely deliriously, but certifiably, insane.

Not true, 12:54. The best and brightest will never be so sorry to be working their asses off in a highly regarded Am Law 100 firm. It's a golden path for the underprivileged and otherwise untalented. If you truly are good and bright, you won't exchange time for money.

Here's the thing: We hear of all of these out-of-the-water K&E bonuses. But K&E isn't getting better clients than the rest of BigLaw and it can't justify higher billing rates than comparable shops. Nor do K&E partners take home less than their BigLaw peers. So where do these huge associate bonus payouts come from? I've come up with two guesses.

The first goes to the methodology of the bonus reporting: If the K&E bonuses are highly individualized, perhaps only those that are "top of class" or "above class" are reporting their bonus to whatever AmLaw source is tracking them. This is a bit misleading as it suggests that K&E has the highest bonuses (other than Wachtell, etc), when in fact it is highly possible that the average K&E associate could end up making the same or less than the average lockstep BigLaw associate. Impossible to tell without 100% reporting, including mean and median statistics, but K&E's profits don't seem to bear out their reputation for paying approximately $30K more in bonsues per associate than other comparable shops.

There is, however, a second theory: That K&E cleans house months before bonus season a bit more vigorously than other law firms. If the bonus pot come late January/February is divvied up between a decreased number of associates, there is more to go around. Hence K&E strikes fear into the heart of its associates who know they need to beat out their classmates in order to not get fired AND gets a rep for paying out the highest bonuses.

In either case, what is obvious is that K&E associates "compete" against their fellow associates for an "above the class" ranking that will allow them to keep their job and score a higher bonus. That risk is worth the reward only if you are confident that you -- and not your equally bright classmates -- are the one who will win.

Why does everyone get so alarmed by a firm firing underperforming employees? It doesn't matter whether the employer's expectations are grounded in reality or not; if you can't hack it, you deserve to be fired. End of story!

I think this one is my favorite:

An anagram for Walker Texas Ranger is KARATE WRANGLER SEX. I don't know what that is, but it sounds AWESOME.

But then again, this one is pretty good too:

Another anagram for Dave Lat is LAVA TED. I've heard that's the pro wrestling name he uses. Apparently his signature move involves a taser, a copy of the Harvard Law Review, and Oona O'Connell's bra strap. Intense...

Also, FYI, Washington law firm Wiley Rein made an appearance on the Colbert Report tonight. Now, if that's not uber prestige, I don't know what is. Eat your hearts out WLRK, there's a new top dog in town.

2:43, I don't think anyone is alarmed when a firm fires underperforming employees. In fact, we're probably pretty ok with that if it means that they will be replaced with better associates.

The problem is that from many of these reports, the employees were not underperforming, but were with or above their class in all but the most recent review. When a bad review is undeserved or comes out of nowhere and leads to someone being let go, it makes the rest of us fear for our own job safety and think "there but for the grace of G_d go I."

No one has a problem with poorly performing associates being let go, whatever the barameter may be (hours, merit, personality, etc). No one is surprised when senior associates who aren't going to make partner are shown the door. But we're talking about 3rd years here who received strong scores in their first few years. Fairness seems to imply that firms should clearly delineate the standards on which associates are going to be judged, then consistently evaluate associates by those standards, and give feedback or a chance to correct when certain standards are not being met. Sure, K&E can let anyone go whenever they want; that's what at-will employment is all about. However, rumors of layoffs that aren't performance-based, or are couched as performance-based but appear to be something else, are concerning.

now that the layoff spook is over, can we get back to *real* business?

that is, NY to $190k!

3:57 AM brings up a situation that many of the geniuses posting here can't contemplate -- that a good associate can get a bad review.

It does happen where an asshole partner/sr. associate gives a good junior associate a bad review. The reviewer is an asshole in the sense that he's one of those clasically bad people to work for. Completely unreasonable. False deadlines, making the jr. do secretarial work, etc. The bad review comes from the fact that the associate won't simply do anything to please the asshole. Unlike many in his class, he's neither a bootlicker nor scared shitless.

There are two ways to look at this. From a cosmic fairness perspective, the review would be unwarranted. After all, junior associate works hard, turns in good written work product, etc.

On the other hand (perhaps) from the Firm's perspective, the asshole makes the Firm a lot more money than the jr. -- and has been there much longer and has more than paid his dues -- so the jr. should suck it up and do what the asshole wants. That's how the asshole gets his deals done. So the jr. associate may not be "good" after all, based on the Firm's ultimate standard, which is being a good soldier.

Chicago to $175k!

"I work very hard at K&E, and in return they pay me very well and are providing an outstanding platform for my development."

I hate to break this to you, but they don't pay you very well; they pay you the market rate, and maybe a bit more.

I'll come in around 2050-2100 and make 210k with bonus as a 3rd year in DC. A few hundred more hours and that goes to 240k, I think. How much more are K&E associates making for hitting their bonuses? It better be at least 25K at each level (235/265) before I would consider myself "very well" paid relative to my peers.

I know several people at K&E who do bill 2300+. They enjoy their work and don't mind giving up many of their nights and weekends. To each his own. That's simply not the lifestyle I want.

But for all the law students out there, don't let them fool you with the "oh, everyone works hard at big firms." Yes, everyone does work hard but there is an enormous difference between 2100 and 2400. And you will be much closer to 2400 at K&E than at most other firms.

Look, if any K&E associate is unhappy, come on over to Jones Day. Of course, we expect around the same hours, pay below market, don't pay bonuses, you have to buy your own blackberry (and pay for the service), and there is a 10 year partnership track, but, come on over! For some reason associates keep leaving and we need to fill in the ranks!

Darn, 9:34, is JD really that cheap?

So what if you don't want to get the blackberry? That's beyond cheap, especially since Jones Day could get a better deal on the device and the service if it bought in bulk for the whole firm.

2200 is avg?

for all the whining from Atlanta, 2200 would classify you as an insane, lonely gunner down here.

2:59 - who from wiley was on colbert?

7:56 p.m.: "This would be like Harvard kicking out the bottom 10% of its class. Who would want to attend Harvard, if they got into Yale, and Yale didn't similarly prune its class?"

** Spot-on. Firms seem to disregard the fact that there will always be a bottom 10%. Skim the bottom 10%, and you've got a NEW bottom 10%.

Superstar at 9:44 p.m.: "Why is superstar status based on hours? Does efficiency count? Does finding the smoking gun count? Well reasoned arguments?"

** No, efficiency doesn't count. Efficiency counts against you, because it means it took you less hours to finish the task. ALL that matters in BigLaw are hours.

10:42 p.m.: "To think that you "have" to hit 3000 hours to be cosidered for partner is absurd. It's just not worth it at that point. Especially if you have a wife and children. When would you see them?"

** You've got to be kidding me. When would you see them if you're "only" billing 2400?

11:38 p.m.: "Forgive my naivety, but how do other firms treat associates who are consistently underperforming or who are submitting a less than desirable work product?"

** In the mid-market city where I live, people who get shown the door have been given anywhere from six to twenty-four months to get the message and leave. They get more than one bad review. They get a lot of chances. If people are getting good reviews and then get asked to leave, something is definitely up.

All of you need to put down the Kool-Aid and get a life! Those who got "laid off" or whatever you want to call it, may have been done a favor. I have my own firm doing contract work for other firms, billing $100-150/hour and working no more than 30 hours a week. I'll do the math for you - on average, THAT'S $187,000 A YEAR, without overhead, without the headache of billing, without collecting from clients, without dealing with angry clients (the beauty of contract work). Did I mention I don't work more than 30 hours a week? Most of my friends have their own firms too, some of them making more money than they did as AmLaw100 EQUITY PARTNERS. And they only work 40-50 hours a week and spend the weekends at their vacation homes and on their boats. If you think BigLaw is where it's at, I hope you find a good doctor and therapist, because you'll see more of them than you will your family.

Any ideas about the average for K&E DC?

My husband bills 2400 regularly; likely 2600 this year, and i see him every night and every weekend; Yes, he goes to the office, but I see him. The key is GET UP EARLY, and be efficient.

K & E is of counsel in the recently filed lawsuit GSK v. Dudas in E.D.Va. So long as they win that suit, I will never think poorly of them, no matter how many people they lay off. Oh, and bonus points if they get the Prelim. Inj.

Don't most firms give "individualized" bonuses?

Wow, I bet K&E associates get a detailed memo about how to respond to the mid-level survey too.

This is the biggest co-ordinated PR damage control blitz I've ever seen on a freakin' blog. Kudos to Lat for making a tabloid so important that an entire firm mobilizes, from partner trolls sending the "real info" in carefully crafted rebuttals to Lat, to associates (assuming they're not just recruiting flunkies posing) taking turns at the pump, posting "I love K&E and billing 2,500 hours, and you're a p*ssy loser who shouldn't practice law if you don't" comments.

Firm fires your colleagues? "Thank you sir, may I have another!" K&E must stand for Kool-aid & Endure...

10:07 a.m.: "My husband bills 2400 regularly; likely 2600 this year, and i see him every night and every weekend; Yes, he goes to the office, but I see him. The key is GET UP EARLY, and be efficient."

** Let me rephrase. You can't bill 2400 hours a year and have any semblance of a life without padding your bills. Honey, we all got up early when we worked in BigLaw. I was at the office by 7:00 a.m. and left at 7:00 p.m. There is enough non-billable crap going on that even with those hours I wasn't billing anywhere near 2400 hours. I also worked late nights and many weekends. So if your hubby has nights and weekends off, and is billing 2400-2600 hours a year, he is most likely padding those bills. That's another issue I have with BigLaw.

11:06, settle down. The OP is obviously using hyperbole or lying.

Fore example, "i see him every night and every weekend."

Really? EVERY night AND EVERY weekend? Really? Even at a "lifestyle" firm that does not happen.

11:06 and 11:19 - you both have your head up the same ass. 2400-2500 hours without padding and without working weekends is absolutely doable and the norm for me. And if you think otherwise, your both jackasses who couldn't find each others asses with your combined 4 hands.

re 2400 billable hours without nights, weekends, padding:

Assuming you bill for every second spent in the office, but take off weekends, holidays and 20 vacation days, you need to be in the office about 10.4 hours per day. Add a half-hour for lunch, and your talking 8 a.m. to 7 pm, every single working day of the year, with ruthless efficiency, an absolutely continuous stream of work, and no time devoted to non-billable matters. Possible? Perhaps. Likely? Not so much.

Lose one half-hour per day to any combination of factors and you're down to less than 2300 hrs.

FIRST!!!!

12:20

Why can't it be 8am till 8pm, with the OCCASIONAL late night till 11pm, and the OCCASIONAL few hours on Saturday? And by occasional, I mean once every few weeks.

With my revised model, you can easily reach 2400, without "ruthless efficiency, an absolutely continuous stream of work, and no time devoted to non-billable matters".

And for that matter, I know plenty of excellent associates at V10 NY firms who come in at 2000-2100 billables per year. I don't know where do people get the idea that 2400-2500 is the most common. It's not.

add 12:20 to the jackass list

How does anyone billing 2400-2500 hours have any time to post on this blog?

12:20--Yes it might be doable, billing 11 hours of a 12 hour day every work day, plus the "OCCASIONAL late night till 11pm, and the OCCASIONAL few hours on Saturday." Who is busy enough to bill those hours every single working day but still able to walk out the door at 8 pm, consider 11 pm a late night, and decline to work almost every weekend?

12:51--Um, ever hear of this thing called a "conference call"?

At K&E you can deny work if you don't want to work on something...the free market system

WTF is wrong with people?? K&E associates defend Kirkland and you idiots call them delusional, Kool-aid drinking zombies. It coulnd't be that some people are happy at K&E and think it is truly a great place to work. It definitely couldn't be that some stupid, lazy associates get asked to leave and they start bad mouthing the firm on annonymous web blogs. And it certainly couldn't be true that a big law firm regularly shows people the door.

Are you that fuckin stupid??

Kirkland rocks you second tier wannabes can kiss our a$$$$$E$$$

My bonus last year was $120K as a 4th year. Top that Cravath lock step bitches!

Where is K&E in the M&A league tables?

Ok so 8:37 illustrates that 1) the dismissals likely are performance based, and 2) there should be at least one more next year in the NY office.

8:37 = 2600 hour brainless billing drone who blows associate committee members. Enjoy your 120k. The gravy train will end once talent starts to matter, at least a little, i.e., share partner decision time. Numbskull.

10:11 = Jealous loser

Did you ever go to trial dumbass? Do you know what its like to depose top shelf econ experts? Argue in Court? Put on a witness at trial? I do and a host of mid level KE associates do as well. Enjoy your lock step bonus and drafting memos to file and reviewing documents. Meanwhile, I am actually doing the things that you hope to do someday -- when your "talent" is recognized.

Kirkland is one place where talent matters at all levels and you get paid for it. If you really think that 2600 hours reviewing documents would get you a $120k bonus, you are as big an idiot as you sound.

And one wonders how Kirkland got its rep for being full of alpha, arrogant, aggressive a-holes...

To all those 2Ls who recently accepted an offer to summer at K&E, and to all those 3Ls who recently accepted a permanent offer from K&E, what I have to say to you is very simple: dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb da dumb dumb dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb da dumb dumb dumb...

The rest of you idiots at K&E should stop drinking the Kool-Aid and jump ship before your asses are tossed too. If you all are so dumb that you choose to stay at a firm like that, I have no mercy for you...

K&E associate = V5 wannabe (loser!)

2:52 - Settle down, Francis. You, a "host" of midlevel KE associates . . . and several thousand midlevel associates at insurance defense firms across the country know what those things are like. Posts like that are a discredit to yourself and K&E.

To everyone else - correction to my 11:55 post; in light of 2:52, there should be at least 2 more performance based dismissals next year.

seriously, why all the K&E hate?