Associate Bonus Watch: Don't Go West, Young Man
(At Least If You're Looking for a Big Bonus)
This week has been fairly quiet in terms of associate bonus news. We started wondering: Are you, our readers, holding out on us? Have there been bonus announcements from major firms that you haven't told us about?
Maybe not -- at least not from West Coast firms. From an article by Kellie Schmitt for The Recorder:
Want to kill a conversation with a California law firm leader? Talk about bonuses.Weeks after top New York firms started announcing lavish special bonuses on top of the usual year-end handouts, California's firms have made no moves. This week, leaders at eight of 10 leading West Coast firms declined multiple requests to talk bonuses.
So no, it's not our imagination. West Coast firms are still deliberating about bonuses. For example, we've heard that the relevant committee at O'Melveny & Myers recently met -- but we've not heard about what conclusion they reached.
More discussion, after the jump.
Still from the Recorder:
One firm that did talk was Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver & Hedges. William Urquhart said the litigation powerhouse is keeping up with the New York bonuses, just as it matched New York increases to associate salaries this year."We've taken a position: equal pay for equal work," he said. In fact, the firm is promising to top the New York special bonuses by $5,000, though half the "special" sum won't be paid until June.
But does Quinn deserve such props? One QE associate doesn't think so:
I knew this was going to happen as soon as I read John Quinn's email (as did probably most QE associates), but here we are on November 30th and we haven't received our special bonuses yet. John Quinn specifically said that we'd be paid "this month."Now, his email was clearly written for ATL (as it purported to match market while leaving a huge loophole upon which I'm sure the partnership will seize), so I think it's only fair that ATL readers are aware of this. This fits perfectly into the firm's M.O. which is to promise the world and not deliver. Seriously, what other firms announce that bonuses will be paid on such and such date and then not do it? Last year, we got our bonuses late because - I s*** you not - "the pouch from L.A. got lost in the mail."
As Cuba Gooding said in Jerry Maguire, "Show me the money!"
Update: As noted in the comments, the Quinn bonuses were paid today. The timing varied from office to office, as reflected in the comments confusion. But our understanding is that all QE associates will have their dough before the day is through (even if they didn't at the time this post was published).
So California firms are taking their sweet time about announcing bonuses. But when they do move, will they match New York -- or at least come close?
"I think there will be significant pressure on California firms to declare bonuses for associates, perhaps not at the level of New York, but I think they're going to have to come close," said William Brennan, a consultant with legal management consultancy Altman Weil. "I believe the cost of matching bonuses is not as significant as the loss in perception and image."
But wait a sec. If they "match" New York, or come close, will that include New York's "special" bonuses?
What California honchos aren't speaking about is the special bonus, on top of the usual year-end award, that Cravath, Swaine & Moore announced this month. Firms such as Debevoise & Plimpton and Simpson Thacher & Bartlett also joined in, promising year-end bonuses ranging from $35,000 for first-years to $65,000 for senior associates, as well as a special bonus ranging from $10,000 to $50,000....L.A. recruiter Delia Swan predicts that some premiere firms in California are likely to offer a one-time special bonus, but it might not completely match New York's since "it's a different market."
We found this observation about the East Coast / West Coast rivalry interesting:
Robert Hubble, the managing partner of Heller Ehrman, said the timing lag in bonus distribution relates to the differences in the bonus structure between California and New York-based firms.In New York, bonuses are back-ended, relating to the firm's prior-year performance, something that's contingent and variable. Firms like Heller, based outside New York, spell out in the beginning of the year what the range will be, based on individual performance and a discretionary element, he said.
"It's like comparing an apple to a wagon," he said. "How do you compare that system, that's back-end loaded versus one that's prospective?"
The article ends on a sobering note:
[B]y next year, associates may look back fondly on worrying only about getting as high a bonus as everyone else. [Law firm consultant William] Brennan said they'd do well to enjoy the sweetened pot this year, before the effects of the credit crisis really kick in, possibly freezing salaries or even bringing layoffs.
Stay tuned -- to ATL, for the latest in law firm bonus (and layoff) news.
All's Too Quiet on Bonus Front [The Recorder via Law.com]
(148) Comments
fist
So close ()o()
Methinks the QE associate whines too much.
foot
FUCK WEST COAST CHEAPIES!
Lat, the QE associates got their bonus today, says my friend who works there. Please update.
()o()
I wouldn't expect the Cheap 3 to pay any kind of special bonus to CA associates.
If anyone at the firms that paid out part of the bonus this month is still around, could you post whether or not your firm paid out? There were some rumors that skadden cheaped but the talk died down so fast I assume it was BS.
Other than that I haven't heard of any firms coming up short like apparently Quinn did, but if they did, it would be nice to know about it.
The Quinn bonus was paid today. At least in one non-LA California office.
skadden pays NY bonuses in CA, right?
The New York associates have NOT gotten paid yet.
The CA office too
( )o( )
Which firms pay NY bonuses in all their offices?
Quit being lazy, and look through the other posts. And if you're a 2L and you don't know this already, sorry.
oops - as soon as I wrote that comment, we got an email saying to come by to pick up our check. I.e., New York associates HAVE (or are currently picking up) their bonus check.
What I don't understand is why LA firms (and a lot of other non-NY firms) still haven't matched in their NYC offices. If you have an offer from Latham NYC, odds are you could work at V10 NYC firm; in a world of global law firms with multiple 300-person offices, there's no real difference in the work you should expect to do between large offices of large firms.
Unless non-NYC firms are strongly considering stepping down a tier, they have to match the top-of-the-market bonus at least in their New York offices.
Right?
California biglaw bonus summary: http://xoxoreader.blogspot.com/2007/04/california-biglaw-bonus-summary.html
I'm normally a fan of FRAT STUD, but I think the above effort missed the mark. I think he should have gone with "Guys in my high school got their pouches lost in the mail all the time, it was no big deal."
Just my two cents.
that is such a BS response that a bonuses are decided at the beginning of the year and prospective. The firm divies up profits in hindsight, subject to reserves, why the f would associate bonuses be any different. f ing moron. how stupid does that guy think associates are. apple to wagon, he even got the f ing analogy wrong.
Is law firm consultant William Brennan any relation to Justice Brennan?
Anyone have a list of non-NYC based firms that matched in the NYC office?
WGWAG to 190!
I love it - employees complaining (non union mind you) that their employers are cheap. Hey, newsflash douchebags, vote with your feet if you don't like your salary. You certainly have no "right" to more money. Idiots.
qe's website is sick.
NYC Bonus List of Shame
2008 Vault Rank
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8 Latham & Watkins LLP
9
10
*11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Punted)
12
13
14
15
16 Williams & Connolly LLP
17
18 Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
19 O'Melveny & Myers LLP
20
21 Arnold & Porter LLP
22 Jones Day
23 Morrison & Foerster LLP
24
25
*26 Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft (Punted)
27 Hogan & Hartson LLP
28 Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP
29
30 Ropes & Gray LLP
31 Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker
32
33 Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP
34 Winston & Strawn LLP
35
36 Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
37 Linklaters
38 Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe
39
40
41 King and Spalding
*42 Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (Punted)
43
44 Baker & McKenzie
45 Baker Botts LLP
46 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
47 Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP
48 Dechert LLP
49 Irell & Manella LLP
*50 McDermott, Will & Emery (Punted)
51 Jenner & Block LLP
52
53
54 DLA Piper
55
56 Fish & Richardson P.C. (Failed to Match)
57 Fulbright & Jaworski LLP
58 Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
59 Goodwin Procter LLP
60 Cooley Godward LLP
61 Alston & Bird
62 Heller Ehrman
63 Vinson & Elkins
64 Bingham McCutchen
65 Sonnenschein Nath
66 Greenberg Traurig
67
68 Holland & Knight
69 Steptoe & Johnson
70 Foley & Lardner
71 Kirkpatrick & Lockhart
72 Chadbourne & Parke
73 Hunton & Williams
74 Nixon Peabody
75 Thacher Proffitt
76 Bryan Cave
77
78 Perkins Coie
79 Stroock & Stroock & Lavan
80 Patton Boggs
81 Howrey
82 Reed Smith
83 Crowell & Moring
84 McGuireWoods
85
86 Arent Fox
87 Katten Muchin Rosenman
88 Finnegan, Henderson
89
90 Thelen Reid & Priest
91 Baker & Hostetler
92
93 Venable
94 Squire, Sanders & Dempsey
95 Kelley Drye & Warren
96 Dickstein Shapiro
97 Fenwick & West
98 Kilpatrick Stockton
99
100 Manatt, Phelps & Phillips
NR. McKee Nelson (Failed to Match)
NR. Hughes Hubbard (Failed to Match)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONUS STATUS BY 2006 RPL
Rank 2006 in revenue
by revenue Revenue per lawyer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Wachtell ABOVE MARKET $2,455,000 2.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Sullivan & Cromwell MARKET & ABOVE MARKET FOR SENIOR ASSOC. $1,565,000 1.3%
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3 Wiley Rein $1,520,000 162.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Cravath MARKET $1,355,000 5.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Davis Polk MARKET $1,200,000 4.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Simpson Thacher-MARKET $1,200,000 6.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 McKee Nelson BELOW MARKET $1,190,000 1.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Milbank, Tweed MARKET $1,110,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 Skadden MARKET $1,095,000 10.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Cahill Gordon MARKET $1,075,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Fragomen, Del Rey $1,070,000 26.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Gibson, Dunn $1,050,000 4.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Irell & Manella $1,050,000 9.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Kirkland & Ellis PUNTED $1,035,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Paul, Weiss MARKET $1,035,000 0.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 Munger, Tolles $1,025,000 18.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17 Quinn Emanuel $1,020,000 28.3% SLIGHTLY ABOVE MARKET BUT PARTIALLY DEFERRED
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Shearman & Sterling MARKET $1,010,000 2.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19 Debevoise & Plimpton MARKET $1,005,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 Cadwalader BONUS ANNOUNCED, NO $ FIGURES $1,000,000 6.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Boies, Schiller $980,000 3.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Weil, Gotshal MARKET $980,000 2.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 Cleary Gottlieb MARKET $975,000 7.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 Willkie Farr MARKET $970,000 12.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 Williams & Connolly $955,000 2.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26 Finnegan, Henderson $945,000 11.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27 Townsend and Townsend $940,000 6.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28 Fried, Frank $930,000 MARKET 4.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29 Schulte Roth MARKET W/ HOURS REQS. & POSSIBILITY OF MORE $925,000 6.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 Latham & Watkins $920,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Wilmer Cutler MARKET $890,000 5.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 McDermott Will PUNTED $875,000 12.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 Kaye Scholer MARKET WITH POSSIBILITY OF MORE & PERF. REQS. $865,000 7.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Arnold & Porter $855,000 4.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Ropes & Gray $855,000 1.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Choate, Hall $850,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Kramer Levin MARKET W/ PERF. REQS. $850,000 6.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
38 Heller Ehrman $845,000 5.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
39 Akin Gump $840,000 7.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 Hughes Hubbard BELOW MARKET $835,000 12.1%
Not listed: Dewey (Market with hours requirement)
Clifford Chance (Market)
White & Case (Market)
Morgan Lewis (Punted)
Covington (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)
Sidley (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)
Freshfields (Market)
Allen & Overy (Market)
Proskauer (Market with hours reqs.)
Fish & Richardson (Failed to Match)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonus List of Shame
by NY Attorneys (Source: Crains)
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16) Wilson Elser
17)
18)
19) Latham & Watkins
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25) Greenberg Traurig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-NY Bonus List of Shame:
(firms not matching in all domestic offices)
Firm (Offices that DID match)
1) Dewey & LeBoeuf (NYC)
2) Fried Frank (NYC)
3) White & Case (NYC)
4) Sidley Austin (NYC)
5) Covington & Burling (NYC)
6) Proskauer (NYC, LA, Boston)
7) WilmerHale (NYC)
I wish Kaye Scholer would update their chintzy website ...
I've become a bigger fan of frat stud, but I agree that the effort here was lacking.
wow, latham. I had my choice of 7 of the top 10 firms. you sold yourself, latham, and I bought you. you are at the top of the rankings in your home state - something I felt was sufficient to ensure that you'll be paying me as much as anyone else gets paid in this state.
why hath thou forsaken me? i KNOW you wont be working me less than your "peers" down the street at Skadden or DPW, each of whom matched NYC bonuses nationwide. i KNOW it's not because of an inability to afford it. do you consider yourself to be lower than those firms? that's not what sold me on you, latham.
do it better. bring it home to momma/daddy [because each of those other NYC top 10 firms I turned down encouraged me to check back in with them at the end of next summer].
I work at Gibson. I dont' think I want a bonus this year.
where my dawg latham at?
Hey, disgruntled 2L, I work at Latham, and with that overdeveloped sense of entitlement I don't think you'll fit in here.
We don't need special bonuses here on the west coast because no one wants to live on the east coast.
disgruntled 2L, you would absolutely work more hours at Skadden or DPW than at Latham. And at Skadden, you'd be treated like shit to boot.
At the new associate/lateral retreat OMM told us not to worry about the bonus issue since their bonuses are merit based and always match or beat their competitors. They told us to just trust them that at the end of the year, we would come out ahead. The strange thing was that they don't even give new associates bonuses...so as a new associate, I was even more puzzled by why they would announce that at the new associate/lateral retreat and not make an announcement to the associates at the firm.
...and at Skadden you would get a market bonus.
the "If" in the title parenthetical of this post should not have been capitalized.
I had a recruiter tell me that Morgan Lewis was going to be giving out "NY Bonuses" this year in San Francisco.
Anyone hear anything to confirm or refute that?
anon @ 7:47:
It's a Friday night. You need to get laid.
What I think is that barely anyone who posts on these bonus threads has actually worked for a significant amount of time (by that I mean 3+ years post-summer associate) at any of the firms paying huge bonuses. You know why? Because after we spent 156 weeks working 80 hours a week, all of us who DID work there realized that NO amount of money my firm paid me made it worth it. It is a horrible life. Once you live it you'll realize the same thing and will stop crying over the 20K or 30K difference between LA and NY.
And you'll punch your ticket and get a better job in-house that pays less and thank your lucky stars that you got out.
This is a stupid thread - as the lack of any interesting posts clearly shows. Everyone who has a clue knows that the big LA firms (and a lot of big SF firms) will give merit based bonuses this year that pay most people right around market, if not just a bit under, and big billers will get above market, sometime significantly so. It's a different system, but it rewards the stand-outs. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, if I billed 2300 and got the same bonus as the guy who just made 2000, I'd be kind of pissed.
The partners at WSGR are still bitching about the last set of raises, so word on the street is that their bonuses will actually be LESS than last year.
I work at Latham. I don't want a bonus. I'm also retarded.
Latham has always announced bonuses in January and paid in February. They will match in NYC as they always do, but there is a minimum requirement of 1900 hours.
Should also note that the bar stipend that Latham paid in the summer ($13k+) is more than the pro-rated bonus that the stubs at the NY firms will be getting at the end of the year (unless they started working in June or something).
Latham does not "always" match NYC bonuses. For some associates that bill a ton, sure. But if you are billing 2000-2200, you are not going to be getting the same bonus level as the top NYC firms. Period. Most Latham associates are honest enough to admit that they have to work like dogs to get the bonuses that lockstep firms give out.
who cares.
I said they will match *in NYC* -- see the bonus memo from last year and you will see that the "base" bonus (i.e. the minimum bonus for 1900 hours) in NYC matches market, with the opportunity to make more: http://xoxoreader.blogspot.com/2007/01/latham-bonus-memo.html
Ah, well, this thread appears to mostly be about California firms and the bonuses they are giving their California associates. Sounds like we can all agree, though, that Latham won't be paying NY bonuses in LA and SV.
This is going to be the death blow for WSGR recruiting. After bonuses are announced, they are going to be WAY under market in Silicon Valley. Why would Stanford and Berkeley grads even consider working there anymore?
To Anon 8:12 p.m:
Where did you hear this? I work at WSGR, and while I've heard the partners complain about the last round of raises, I've not heard any rumors about the bonuses being less than last year.
Wouldn't surprise me though.
The blog post was about Cali but some of the complaints above were about why Latham, Gibson, etc. haven't announced bonuses for their NY offices yet.
I doubt Latham will be paying NY bonuses in Cali, they never have before. Last year there was a disparity in the salaries and the bonuses were pretty close (but still a little lower). In prior years the salaries were the same and the bonuses differed (I believe it was called a cost of living adjustment for NYC). This year the salaries are the same again so we'll see what happens.
Here's a summary of last year's Cali biglaw bonuses: http://xoxoreader.blogspot.com/2007/04/california-biglaw-bonus-summary.html
Why are the big three so cheap?
proof that cali firms are truly ttt. include cheap dc firms, too. i work at a dc firm and we are getting killed in recruiting. more than half of our summers are from american, catholic and w&m... nothing against these schools, but the silence re: bonuses is deafening. we have no more than 7 or 8 kids from t5. who would want to work at a dc firm, work just as hard as the associates in ny and get paid less? a lot less?
9:18 - Which DC firm?
What I don't understand is why associates who get paid less than their peers, or HAVE to work many more hours than their peers are so nonplussed.
Perhaps this is understandable when the firm one works for is suffering financially, but for a V1-50 firm that hopes to recruit well at HYS, I just don't understand. I guess these same nonplussed associates tell recruits (like they told me) that the firm matches market, but in fact these associates want to sucker others the way they themselves were suckered. No wonder everyone hates lawyers!
8:46 that is absolutely incorrect in NYC
Again, does anyone have good 411 that WSGR's bonuses will be less this year?
9:31, I think you misunderstand the meaning of "nonplussed." It means "perplexed." With that in mind, your post makes no sense.
"Should also note that the bar stipend that Latham paid in the summer ($13k+) is more than the pro-rated bonus that the stubs at the NY firms will be getting at the end of the year (unless they started working in June or something)."
Calling bullshit on this. Plenty of California firms pay BOTH a 1 month bar stipend and a stub bonus.
This is the same line of propaganda shit that Latham fed its incoming clerks when it didn't match market clerkship bonuses- $35k + 13k = ALMOST $50k.
Which firms pay both a $13k stipend and a stub bonus? The NY firms don't. Should we all be leaving cheap NY biglaw for the big bucks at California firms?
Chabourne Park and Arent will match on Monday.
DC firms--SHOW US THE $$$$$$
Latham will low-ball the Cali bonus. No question. Call it a "sense of entitlement," but it sure would be nice if they stuck to the "One Firm" thing.
i work in the west coast and don't want to get paid a ny bonus...they work like slaves in ny, i don't want to do that and i'm fine w/my bonus reflecting that. plus, ny is more expensive.
1:46 anon:
If you want a NY salary live in NY. Pay NY state and city income taxes. Pay $2500/month for a second rate 1 bedroom apartment and feel lucky to have found it. And then ask yourself if the few thousand extra dollars you earned in bonuses really put you at such a huge financial advantage over your California colleagues.
uh, 7:50, I find that highly doubtful.
the reason that people are HAPPY to work in Cali for "less than market" bonuses is because those of us working in SF work fewer hours than you chumps in NYC and when we leave the office it's beautiful out here. so what if my house is going to fall into the bay when the next big earthquake hits? i'm living the highlife until then.
...and NY associates will live the high life until the next big layoff hits!!
11:41- I think Irell pays both a stipend ($15K I believe -- 5 weeks worth of salary) + a stub bonus.
Quinn Emanuel is a mess - they were so unorganized during fall recruitment its laughable. I'm guessing they don't treat their admin staff very well, because the ones I interacted with were completely disorganized and screwed up big time when arranging call backs.
I think the "one firm" bonuses are silly cos NYC has a way higher cost of living. That said, DC firms should match :-)
Wilson Sonsini is waiting for the market to unfold.
We know they'll hike normal year end bonuses a fair amount, which were way under market last year.
But they currently have no mechanism to pay more to the stars who work beyond 2100, because they don't allow discretionary bonuses, and they eliminated the non-discretionary hours-based component once they moved base to the $160K scale.
The rumor is they'll allow special bonuses for people who bill over 2300, but that creates all sorts of issues for a firm that claims it wants to move away from a sweat shop mentality.
Are they waiting for the market to unfold or merely waiting to collude with their peers. Certainly, we have suspicions that major Chicago firms are having the "what can we get away with" discussions. Conspiracy theories abound . . .stay tuned.
Hey, 1:59, but an extra 50K (not to mention the bigger "regular" bonus) makes a huge difference and more than makes up any COL difference you perceive. Sounds like you're smart not trying to live in the fancy place. We'd like extra ducks to pay our student loans or actually piece together a downpayment for less than stellar.
Cleary pays lockstep worldwide.
"Quinn Emanuel is a mess - they were so unorganized during fall recruitment its laughable. I'm guessing they don't treat their admin staff very well, because the ones I interacted with were completely disorganized and screwed up big time when arranging call backs."
QE's staff is paid, on average, 60%-70% of the going rate for individuals of their experience. I knew secretaries there who could expect to make $15-20k more per year jumping ship to tiny firms in low end practice areas (labor, construction, etc.).
Not surprising that the support staff isn't great all around.
10:51 -- Do you realized that, after taxes (at least in California), $50K is really $25K?
One big question is whether GDC and Latham will pay their DC associates the same as NY. DC is a major profit center for both firms, but so far they have been afraid of paying DC more than LA because of the LA partners fears of losing their once top position in the firm.
1:51: As of the end of October YTD, Latham's NY associates were the SIXTH highest-billing domestic office (out of 10).
Do big Texas firms ever pay much bonuses?
what about shulte?
We plan on making a NY salary increase to $175,000 within the next couple weeks.
Now get back to work.
We plan on making a NY salary increase to $180,000 within the next couple weeks.
Now get back to work.
12:50: BigTex pays 5-10k bonuses. There is a thread on this from the summer. Check out the comments. They still fall 30k short of the national firm salary + bonus total.
OMM always does reviews in mid to late december, which includes your bonus numbers. This suggests that the decision about bonuses has already been made.
I'm surprised no one has taken note of the biggest shocker this article has to offer: liberal icon and heralded Supreme Court Justice William Brennan is (1) not dead (2) making questionable career choices in leaving SCOTUS to become a legal analyst and (3) kind of a dick for saying that we all might lose our jobs in a year.
You guys aren't getting it. The worse lawyer compensation on the west coast becomes, the fewer beach blondes who moonlighted as porn starlets in college who will pursue careers in law.
This crisis demands further analysis.
mkpjv oa lbq zowia - hbqgbp huxxb
"1:51: As of the end of October YTD, Latham's NY associates were the SIXTH highest-billing domestic office (out of 10)."
Agree -- I don't think SF or SV or LA associates are working much less (if at all) than their NYC counterparts within the same firm. I don't know where this "CA is the lala-land of part time lawyering vis-a-vis NY" comes from, but it doesn't appear to be grounded in any hard reality.
Now, I don't argue that certain NYC-only firms may work a lot harder than other national firms. Nor do I disagree that certain national sweatshop firms (Skadden, I'm looking at you) work longer hours than others. BUT, within a single firm, I'd be pretty surprised if the NYC associates were billing $50,000/year more than their DC and CA counterparts. (And that's the approximate gross difference in salary . . . .)
If firms want to make a cost of living adjustment, fine. But there should be an equal cost of living adjustment for SF vis-a-vis DC, LA, Boston, etc, and so-on down the line.
10:51,
Saying NY will get an 'extra' $50 K bonus assumes (i) that I'm a 7th year and (ii) that California will get no extra bonus. The former is incorrect (I'm a junior) and the latter will also probably not be true although CA bonuses may be smaller. And bonuses are not that much higher in NY--average Latham bonuses for first years in NY were only higher than average bonuses worldwide by $7.5K.
I doubt that makes even comes close to making up for the COL gap, higher taxes, etc. (And btw, $2,500/ month is for RENT, not for buying.)
Listen, the mud soup and charcoal arugula here are outrageous......I see they have omitted the pork loin with lime jello
Listen, the mud soup and charcoal arugula here are outrageous......I see the have omitted the pork loin with lime jello
First year at Reed Smith here on the West coast. After doing what was asked of me, I scored a sweet bonus of $5k.
Last year if you were in a non-NYC/foreign office, to get the NYC/foreign office bonus, you had to bill 2050-2100.
Love that you NY'ers think we're all stupid. We know that $2500 a month wouldn't buy you a tent in Bryant Park. Yes, we know it's rent.
9:50,
Be thankful that you didn't go above and beyond. You may have scored an extra couple grand and high blood pressure.
Man, sometimes I'm so disillusioned by my so-called prestigious Big Law life. Its almost 1am on a freaking Saturday and Ive been in the office since 8am and I have to come in early again tomorrow. Maybe I should just accept that in-house offer - what the fuck do I do with 250K if if I'm miserable working at office the entire time??
Lat, you should do a post on the hordes of disillusioned Biglaw associates...
I shit special bonuses.
Dewey recently gave the special bonus to all of its California offices, so the "List of Shame" needs to be adjusted to show that NY, DC and California is getting the special bonus.
I deserve a bonus because I have big balls.
Dewey, with or without LeBoeuf, is a near non-entity in CA. Who cares if they paid bonuses?
I'm actually becoming a fan of frat stud myself... the fact that he infiltrated morepartnerincome is great.
Accept the offer. It's not like life gets better as a partner. Money isn't everything.
And, yes, I want my F@#$ing bonus before I bail.
12:16,
Are you saying you wouldn't want $25K after taxes? It's nothing to you? It's almost a new car, additional downpayment, an eighth or more of student loans, or extra money for extended family.
Maybe you can turn yours down. I'll take it.
alknoit - your webblog sucks
On second thought, I don't need the special bonus. After all, I have big balls.
NYC Bonus List of Shame
2008 Vault Rank
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8 Latham & Watkins LLP
9
10
*11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Punted)
12
13
14
15
16 Williams & Connolly LLP
17
18 Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
19 O'Melveny & Myers LLP
20
21 Arnold & Porter LLP
22 Jones Day
23 Morrison & Foerster LLP
24
25
*26 Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft (Punted)
27 Hogan & Hartson LLP
28 Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP
29
30 Ropes & Gray LLP
31 Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker
32
33 Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP
34 Winston & Strawn LLP
35
36 Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
37 Linklaters
38 Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe
39
40
41 King and Spalding
*42 Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (Punted)
43
44 Baker & McKenzie
45 Baker Botts LLP
46 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
47 Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP
48 Dechert LLP
49 Irell & Manella LLP
*50 McDermott, Will & Emery (Punted)
51 Jenner & Block LLP
52
53
54 DLA Piper
55
56 Fish & Richardson P.C. (Failed to Match)
57 Fulbright & Jaworski LLP
58 Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
59 Goodwin Procter LLP
60 Cooley Godward LLP
61 Alston & Bird
62 Heller Ehrman
63 Vinson & Elkins
64 Bingham McCutchen
65 Sonnenschein Nath
66 Greenberg Traurig
67
68 Holland & Knight
69 Steptoe & Johnson
70 Foley & Lardner
71 Kirkpatrick & Lockhart
72 Chadbourne & Parke
73 Hunton & Williams
74 Nixon Peabody
75 Thacher Proffitt
76 Bryan Cave
77
78 Perkins Coie
79 Stroock & Stroock & Lavan
80 Patton Boggs
81 Howrey
82 Reed Smith
83 Crowell & Moring
84 McGuireWoods
85
86 Arent Fox
87 Katten Muchin Rosenman
88 Finnegan, Henderson
89
90 Thelen Reid & Priest
91 Baker & Hostetler
92
93 Venable
94 Squire, Sanders & Dempsey
95 Kelley Drye & Warren
96 Dickstein Shapiro
97 Fenwick & West
98 Kilpatrick Stockton
99
100 Manatt, Phelps & Phillips
NR. McKee Nelson (Failed to Match)
NR. Hughes Hubbard (Failed to Match)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONUS STATUS BY 2006 RPL
Rank 2006 in revenue
by revenue Revenue per lawyer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Wachtell ABOVE MARKET $2,455,000 2.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Sullivan & Cromwell MARKET & ABOVE MARKET FOR SENIOR ASSOC. $1,565,000 1.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Wiley Rein $1,520,000 162.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Cravath MARKET $1,355,000 5.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Davis Polk MARKET $1,200,000 4.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Simpson Thacher-MARKET $1,200,000 6.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 McKee Nelson BELOW MARKET $1,190,000 1.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Milbank, Tweed MARKET $1,110,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 Skadden MARKET $1,095,000 10.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Cahill Gordon MARKET $1,075,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Fragomen, Del Rey $1,070,000 26.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Gibson, Dunn $1,050,000 4.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Irell & Manella $1,050,000 9.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Kirkland & Ellis PUNTED $1,035,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Paul, Weiss MARKET $1,035,000 0.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 Munger, Tolles $1,025,000 18.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17 Quinn Emanuel $1,020,000 28.3% SLIGHTLY ABOVE MARKET BUT PARTIALLY DEFERRED
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Shearman & Sterling MARKET $1,010,000 2.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19 Debevoise & Plimpton MARKET $1,005,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 Cadwalader BONUS ANNOUNCED, NO $ FIGURES $1,000,000 6.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Boies, Schiller $980,000 3.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Weil, Gotshal MARKET $980,000 2.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 Cleary Gottlieb MARKET $975,000 7.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 Willkie Farr MARKET $970,000 12.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 Williams & Connolly $955,000 2.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26 Finnegan, Henderson $945,000 11.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27 Townsend and Townsend $940,000 6.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28 Fried, Frank $930,000 MARKET 4.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29 Schulte Roth MARKET W/ HOURS REQS. & POSSIBILITY OF MORE $925,000 6.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 Latham & Watkins $920,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Wilmer Cutler MARKET $890,000 5.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 McDermott Will PUNTED $875,000 12.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 Kaye Scholer MARKET WITH POSSIBILITY OF MORE & PERF. REQS. $865,000 7.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Arnold & Porter $855,000 4.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Ropes & Gray $855,000 1.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Choate, Hall $850,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Kramer Levin MARKET W/ PERF. REQS. $850,000 6.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
38 Heller Ehrman $845,000 5.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
39 Akin Gump $840,000 7.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 Hughes Hubbard BELOW MARKET $835,000 12.1%
Not listed: Dewey (Market with hours requirement)
Clifford Chance (Market)
White & Case (Market)
Morgan Lewis (Punted)
Covington (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)
Sidley (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)
Freshfields (Market)
Allen & Overy (Market)
Proskauer (Market with hours reqs.)
Fish & Richardson (Failed to Match)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonus List of Shame
by NY Attorneys (Source: Crains)
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16) Wilson Elser
17)
18)
19) Latham & Watkins
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25) Greenberg Traurig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-NY Bonus List of Shame:
(firms not matching in all domestic offices)
Firm (Offices that DID match)
1) Dewey & LeBoeuf (NYC, DC, CA)
2) Fried Frank (NYC)
3) White & Case (NYC)
4) Sidley Austin (NYC)
5) Covington & Burling (NYC)
6) Proskauer (NYC, LA, Boston)
7) WilmerHale (NYC)
FYI Linklaters matched on Friday.
greed greed greed.
Be happy with your 6 digits. Most of you are probably outearning your parents at age 50.
Seriously, if you care that much about money you should have become i-bankers and skipped the extra 3 years of pain.
WSGR's bonuses will look much better this year. By moving the minimum targets up 200 hours (1900 to 2100), far fewer associates will receive any (or full) year-end bonuses.
Supposedly the savings from the hike is being used to fund larger year-end bonus.
There is also talk about adding a second/special bonus high-billers (people above 2300). Not sure if that will be discretionary or just a flat special bonus, but it will give WSGR some high-end numbers that will look closer to market.
First, I gotta agree that some of the people here should have gone into selling insurance or into i-banking if money means so much to them.
More importantly, though, is that if 20k means that much to you, things have gone seriously wrong in your life. Some goofballs here deserve their misery.
Any word on PHJW bonuses?
I echo 3:03...this is more than my parents (combined) have ever made. The sense of entitlement is astounding.
Laughable, man - ha ha!
3:03,
Yes, we make a great salary, but you act like $20K is a pittance. I guess I still remember my first non-law job where that's what I earned for the year, so sorry if I don't share your view. It gets me that much closer to paying off the student debts.
My firm doesn't demand less of me because I don't live in NYC. Does yours? Do Cali partners make less than their equivalent NYC peers with similar clients, billable credits, income to the firm, etc? I doubt it.
"I guess I still remember my first non-law job where that's what I earned for the year,"
So, what r u, like, 65? How do u know how to use the internet?
To 3:16.
At this point, you're just introducing a rumor that is being circulated within WSGR. (You are right that fewer people will meet the 2100 or even the 1900. WSGR's various practice groups never have the same utilization rate, something outsiders ought to know.)
It would be nice if bonuses were higher, but here are two reasons it may not happen:
(1) Jacking up bonuses for those who clocked much more than 2100 (2300 and up) will piss off the associates who wind up not making hours and taking 2K or whatever the stub is when hours aren't made.
(2) The partners are still pissed about the last salary increase. Maybe the executive comm sees things differently (i.e., will see bonuses, in other words, as a business decision), but that remains to be seen.
My understanding is that PHJW announces bonuses in February. They have done this for the last couple of years (there is no conspiracy for this year as some of you dumbass law students like to pretend).
PHJW has always (last 4+ years anyway) announced bonuses in February and paid them in March. They need to wait at least two months after OMM, GDC and L&W announce bonuses becuase they want to make sure they match the cheapest of the Big 3. They also want to get an extra six weeks of billing out of all the associates who are looking to bolt to a law firm that's slightly less cheap.
3:03, you are right. We should respect you as a partner and let you take all your money to the bank.
Just remember, it is the associates you are screwing that allows you to have that nice hefty bank account. At the end of the day, you may think all associates are the same but if none of them will work at your sweat shop you will actually have to lift a finger and do something to service your clients.
We as associates agree, they are your clients and you can have your money but throwing some cash at us as a bonus would certainly keep us working hard for you.
Keep screwing us and we will go in house or elsewhere. By the way, if you think we will give you any business after you screw us, you are sadly mistaken.
It appears that Linklaters NY matched on Friday. They send out individual memos, so no mass memo to be had.
If you work for a TTT, stop using acronyms for your firm as if everyone is familiar with the name. WSGR and PHJW are not name brand. It's a pain in the ass having to figure out who the fuck you're talking about only to discover that it's a firm of no relevance to anyone than the second-rate associates who work there.
The difference between me and my parents is that their incomes generally kept increasing throughout their careers, whereas most of the people in my class expect a significant step change drop after several years. And while the high salary exists, there are tons of loans to pay.
Between the loans, and the uncertainty for how long you keep the BigLaw money, it's a completely different situation from my parents' generation.
But 3:03 is absolutely right, if I can get an offer from a solid i-bank or fund, I won't be joining him, or any other, firm.
To 8:10:
WSGR is THE corporate firm in SV. You are obviously a shittart who thinks that NY is the only market that produces name brand firms. You're probably the type of douche that would want us to spell out "Munger Tolles . . ." instead of just staying MTO.
Heard that McDermott matched on Friday as well.
8:24 - shut up, you dildo.
8:10 - If you're in California, the subject of this thread, and don't know WSGR or PHJW, you're a fucking idiot.
Neither are TTT in California, NY maybe.
Hopefully, those among the WSGR partnership ranks are reading these comments and recognizing that they need to stop complaining and start ponying up. Those of us working as their associates bought on to work at the "top" SV firm. It can't be long before the clients start realizing that the best associates are lateralling to work for the rapidly-growing offices of the Simpson, Davis Polk, etc. next door (or starting out there straight out of Stanford, etc.)...
Wilson Sonsini hasn't been a desirable choice among new associates for a number of years now. The "Deathstar" partnership has been notoriously stingy and arrogant for far too long. Fortunately, ATL is now bringing this to the forefront.
8:36--
McDermott has not announced anything yet, but punted untl mid-December.
McDermott's bonuses are not "lockstep" -- the best associates usually get a better than maket bonus, sub-par associates get below-market bonuses. Word from the inside is that bonuses will average out to be market (some higher, some lower, most the same).
8:24, Silicon Valley doesn't deserve its own acronym either.
It's a poorly kept secret that WSGR has already decided to increase year-end bonuses a good bit for those that hit 2100.
But they haven't figured out what to do about the high-billers well above 2100. Partners are all over the map on that one. Some are mad that their favorite associates are getting cut out. Others need the money to keep their overworked go-to associates in place.
The other issue is that WSGR wants to get away from the NYC follow-the leader model, and look at an "out of the box" model. Possibly some sort of merit based pay starting in year 3, that deemphasizes hours, but allows stars to earn more than associates 1-2 years their senior. That will take more than a year to implement.
To 8:10/10:06.
You're lucky you get to hide behind the veil of ATL. You'd already have lost some teeth if this were IRL.