Master P never quite had it.

So if regular bonuses are the same as they were last year, a first year in NY now makes 25K more than a first year in CHI.

I need to call my recruiter and go to a firm that values their chicago associates before I move up to a higher class where the chicago bonuses really hurt compared to NY.

This memo is really incomplete without the portion that was sent to the associates in the other offices:

"For your information, please find the message below to New York associates announcing a special bonus being provided in New York. As noted, the special New York bonuses are in addition to year-end bonuses, which will be the subject of a Firm-wide announcement in the coming days and which we expect will generally follow the pattern of prior years. We appreciate and value the work of all our associates."

Short for: "nyah nyah nyah nyah. You Chicago lawyers aren't seeing a special bonus."

move out of the stix buddy

Lat to 7 Martinis!

10:10:

It gets even better -

If Sidley also matches the regular NY bonus scale, and Los Angeles Bonuses for 2000 hours remain the same as they were last year, a first year associate in the New York office will receive the same total compensation ($205K) as a THIRD year associate billing 2000 hours in the Los Angeles office.

Houston, there is a problem.

For a firm that trumpets only having a one tier partnership, its nice to know they have a two tier associate structure.

sidley is a crap firm, a real ttt. the problem is, now every non-ny based law firm has an excuse to screw their associates. sidley set the example.

i wonder if dc firms will also treat their associates like garbage.

when will schulte match?

wow you non-NY associates have it sooo tough.. only getting paid in excess of $200k instead of $250k.

it must be hard out there surviving on a mere $200k... you might have to apply for foodstamps to make ends meet.

wow you non-NY associates have it sooo tough.. only getting paid in excess of $200k instead of $250k.

it must be hard out there surviving on a mere $200k... you might have to apply for food stamps to make ends meet.

If Skadden can pay the same bonuses across all offices, why can't other firms?

this cant be stressed enough. screw all of you non-new yorkers. do you know how much it costs to live in ny? and while the minimum hours may be the same, i bet new yorkers work more.

what is a yawning chasm?

non-NYers need to get over it. there are differences between cities. for example, most NY offices give a bar loan while non-NY give a stipend. did you turn your stipend down because it was unequal with NY?

THIS IS SPARTA

Man you Non-NY Biglaw associates have it so tough. You do realize, however, that you're still probably banking more money than the NY associates due to higher CoL, right?

I'll be enjoying my meager scraps alone in my apartment for the holidays while you guys whine on ATL about ONLY getting 200k to work in Chicago.

18th yeah!

seems like the slowdown in the securitization market hasn't hit Sidley that badly.

As a former NY associate who now works in another city, I can tell you, 10:41, that you're wrong. Associates at my firm work as hard as my old firm in New York and we get paid significantly less -- even accounting for higher costs (which frankly are exaggerated by NYers).

seriously, non-NYers need to shut the f*** up already. if you want to get paid NY bonuses work in NY...ever heard of higher cost of living? if you deny that you've either never lived in NY or are just an idiot. so enjoy living in whatever city you live in and stop whining.

douchebags.

10:29:

Excellent point. Athough one should note that the American Lawyer considers Sidley to have a two-tier partnership due to Sidley's having both fully equitized and partially equitized partners.

10:36

No, I will not need food stamps to make ends meet. However, the firm needs to be wary of granting what is essentially second class status to non-NY associates. Regardless as to whether 200K is sufficient, a 45K difference in compensation between NY and LA seems a bit much. 45K is a significant part of a downpayment on a house, and, NY is not 20% more expensive than LA. Even if it was, COL is not the argument that the firm is using to justify compensation (nor would it work given the escalating scale of the special bonus).

Basically, I'm being paid 45K less for doing the same work as another third year associate in the same firm, and receiving the same compensation as an first year associate who just completed their initial year of practice.

Doesn't seem right to me. Maybe my since of justice is out of whack (could be, I am a lawyer after all).

This Sucks. I'm in the DC office of an LA big 3 firm. Our NY office SUCKS. The associates there of my LA firm (which hasn't matched this in any office). If they give those knuckle-draggers in Manhattan the special bonus, but not us, I'm outta here. Also outta here if they try and give us last year's bonuses.

schulte schulte schulte

i have a sense that 10:56's since of spelling justifies his lack of a special bonus this year.

Start spreadin' the news..... I'm leavin' today..... I wanna beeeeee a part of it -- NEW YAWK, NEW YAWK!!!!!!

what are the whiners going to do about it? nothing. that is why you don't get the same bonus. NY firms are competing with each other (which is a ton more firms/offices than other cities), a lot of in- house positions, and associates who want to go to the cities that you are whining about. where do the chicago and LA people go? nowhere. if you really want the bonus, sign up for skadden.

Sidley seems to have learned from Winston's mistake last spring when they raised on the West Coast but didn't tell anyone else, and Winston's Chi/DC associates had to learn about it here.

Best for people to hear the bad (cheap!) news from the horse's mouth.

right on, 10:55. non-NYers, shut the f up

"sense" of justice

where my dawg latham at

B-O-R-I-N-G. Who cares about bonuses at a second tier firm where only average students at non-top law schools are working.

Where is LEWW???

Jones Day Cleveland raised to 145K.

10:59

LOL

What where Sidley bonuses in NY last year? In Chicago?

TTT?

LOL at raising to 145

K&E punted and they lead the market in Chicago. Nowhere in the memo does it say ONLY New York. It is possible Sidley will match in Chi after it waits and sees what K&E does.

In order for all of the NY/Non-NY argument BS to stop, we need to do a billing rate comparison (not cost of living, which is irrelevant to firm economics except for rent of the offices of the firm (in fact, higher rent in NY would tend to argue AGAINST New York associates receiving higher pay)).

LAT BILLING COMPARISON (please?):

I'm LA, corporate, '05 graduation, Vault 20, $360/hr.

No, not TTT, just as frugal as it can be, which, given the present state of the economy, might not be imprudent (doesn't mean I'm not bitter).

Sorry, what does TTT mean?

all other cities have lower CoL than NY? I must have missed the memo that said SanFran wasnt the most expensive city in america anymore

"Regardless as to whether 200K is sufficient, a 45K difference in compensation between NY and LA seems a bit much. 45K is a significant part of a downpayment on a house, and, NY is not 20% more expensive than LA."

You do realize that, in California at least, the post-tax value of $45K is probably around $20K.

10:37,
Not all firms can pay Skadden bonuses because not all firms can be Skadden. Some can. Sidley Austin cannot.

Also given the %age of their NY work that relies on the credit market, Sidley folks are lucky to still have jobs.

Bonus List of Shame
by NY Attorneys (Source: Crains)

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10) Proskauer
11)
12)
13)
14)
15) Schulte
16) Wilson Elser
17)
18)
19) Latham & Watkins
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25) Greenberg Taurig

Seriously? Seriously??

Latham is going to be left out there with Proskauer, SRZ and something called Wilson Elser?

Maybe its time for Latham to close the NY branch office and head back to Cali.

I love all the self-righteous bitching the NY associates do here about cost of living; as though it weren't your own damn fault for living here in the first place. Non-NY associates work just as much as the NY associates, so they should get paid the same. If the constant blaring of horns and 100-sq-ft studios make you want more money, then move!

What a fucking joke. Anyone who has been at Sidley a few years knows that they used to never announce compensation decisions until the tail end of their peer group. So why are they the first Chicago based firm to announce a "special [fuck you to our Chicago associates] bonus"? To signal to other Chicago/DC firms that this special bonus nonsense should be limited to NY. They pulled the same shit when NY went to 160--Sidley announced 145 in Chicago ahead of Kirkland et al, then had to bump up after Kirkland matched in all offices. I would like to believe that the same could still happen here, that Sidley will follow Kirkland Chicago if it matches the special bonus down the road, but Sidley does not mind being a distant second to Kirkland on bonuses (though on this point it has company). Oh, and Sidley Chicago associates historically outbill Sidley NY.

11:21's got a point. if associates in ny are billing at a much higher rate than their non-ny counterparts due to more rate insensitive work and clients, they're bringing in more money for the partners and the firm. what then justifies equal pay?

This bonus coverage "feature" is the stupidest thing on the entire Internet. No one cares.

At my national firm with offices in NYC and the other big cities, billing rates for transactional matters are dependent on type of matter, not location. At the same number of hours, first/second year corporate associates at my firm in the LA office are bringing in more revenues to the firm than third/fourth year litigation associates in the NY office.

Cost of living may explain higher bonuses, but it doesn't explain starting NY bonuses at significantly lower hours, which we do. Trust me, it's easy as shit to bill 1800 (where NY bonuses start) and it's not even that hard to bill 2000 (where Chicago bonuses start), but I billed 2300 this year in Chicago and given the tenor of this memo-- i.e. following the same "pattern," read "amount," of last year's bonus structure --I seriously doubt that I will make more than the lowest billing NY associate in my class, even though I've made the firm much more money. Firm morale is low.

bonus coverage is what drives traffic to this site. well done.

....and the moral should be low. what do those idiots at sidley expect? we bill just as much if not more than sidley's ny office. it's unbelievable.

everyone knows that sidley's ny office attracts only those people who couldn't get offers at better places in ny. we are a chicago law firm. it is tougher to get a job in our chicago office than the ny office. we work harder than any other office and deserve the bonuses more than the ny office.

ok...as a Cal-based lawyer, seriously....NY is fricking expensive. I have a 2br apt for less than 1200...in NY it would be 3 grand or more. plus we have sunshine...sorry chicago. I would rather earn less and live in paradise in socal than be richly paid and live in urban hell with $12 cocktails and snow.

Show me the money!

To say cost of living is irrelevant because you worked the same amount of hours is ignorant. The country's (and world's) biggest investment banks, the highest number of its Fortune 500 companies, the stock markets, are all in NY. It is basically the financial and commercial capital of the US, thus, the biggest clients are there. Those clients are likely to often want a law firm located in the city they are located in to represent them. As leading companies, they likely want the best possible attorneys to work on their business. Thus, NY law firms need to be able to induce the best possible lawyers to live and work in NY. In order to do this, they are going to have to provide at least as good a lifestyle to those lawyers as firms in other cities. So if NY lawyers are making the same as Chicago lawyers or LA lawyers, but getting screwed by the cost of living and therefore in actuality earning less, NY firms and therefore the biggest clients are going to be unable to keep those lawyers around.

Cost of living has everything to do with it. NY has to pay more because it has to ensure that its best lawyers are not going to run off to another city where they can essentially do the same amount of work, but live a lot better.

Use some common sense people, the absolute dollar amounts mean nothing if you don't take cost of living into account. NY could pay $1million but if the cost of living was so high that that was not enough to mainatin a comparable lifestyle to someone making $50,000 in chicago, then NY would be unable to retain the talent it needs.

dipshits.

No one who knows anything really argues over cost of living. We all have reasons for living where we're living, and firms have no reason or interest in compensating us any more or less for that choice.

NY compensation is higher because that's what the NY market dictates. The NY market dictates it for several reasons: (1) competition among NY firms drives compensation up, and every firm wants to stay near the top of the compensation chart; (2) for many firms and on many matters, the billing rates for NY attorneys (partners and associates) are higher; (3) the NY offices of many top firms are very profitable and usually have most of the firm's top rainmakers; and (4) higher compensation keeps some people from leaving NY (in part, admittedly, by easing the higher cost of living). Now, are there non-NY-based firms out there whose NY office is not particularly strong compared to the firm's HQ office, yet the NY associates get paid more? Yes. But again, that takes us back to reason 1 above -- competition; the need to keep up with the leaders of the pack.

I accepted by NY summer offer 2 to 3 hours before this announcement. sweet.

(12:29- it might be a lil early for me to lash back with my newfound sidley pride, but at my top10 school, Sidley NY turned away many law review students, and I know I had offers from "better places" if by that you mean "ranked higher on the vault list..." so, yeah, enjoy chicago. i hear its windy and gray.)

To each of the stupid New Yorkers that keep crying about cost of living. Firms are not giving special bonuses based on cost of living. I know you are the smartest people on the planet, but please understand these bonuses are NOT BASED ON COST OF LIVING YOU JACKRABBITS. They are based on the "firm" having a great year. Are the New York offices associates generating more profit than associates in non-New York offices? No. The special bonuses should be firmwide - there is no justification for limiting the bonuses to New York. If you jackrabbits don't like the high cost of living, leave New York.

oy, firms don't just pay extra money to some associates but not others for no good reason moron. The reason NY associates are getting more is because they COST more. If they are paid the same, in a city that costs more to live in, eventually it will be harder to attract and retain the best talent because they will have moved to Chicago or LA where they can work the same but live better.

In response to 1:38's comment "Are the New York offices associates generating more profit than associates in non-New York offices?" the answer is quite possibly yes. I know that there are national firms that charge significantly different hourly rates in offices that are located in various cities across the country. For instance, a senior associate in NY may charge more than a first year partner in Houston in the same law firm. Therefore, NY associates may be more profitable than other associates (or even (service) partners).

"as a Cal-based lawyer, seriously....NY is fricking expensive. I have a 2br apt for less than 1200"

Where do you live?? Fresno?? I have a one bedroom (not nearly top of the line) and it is $1800. A 2 bedroom in my building goes for $2400-2600.

"as a Cal-based lawyer, seriously....NY is fricking expensive. I have a 2br apt for less than 1200"

Where do you live?? Fresno?? I have a one bedroom in a good neighborhood in LA (not nearly top of the line) and it is $1800. A 2 bedroom in my building goes for $2400-2600.

11:21 here...I REPEAT (COME ON LAT, give us a page):

In order for all of the NY/Non-NY argument BS to stop, we need to do a billing rate comparison (not cost of living, which is irrelevant to firm economics except for rent of the offices of the firm (in fact, higher rent in NY would tend to argue AGAINST New York associates receiving higher pay)).

LAT BILLING COMPARISON (please?):

I'm LA, corporate, '05 graduation, Vault 20, $360/hr.

NY associates are a firm's best and brightest. They bill more and at higher rates. On average, they have better pedigrees and are better looking. They should be paid more.

Sucks to be me. Sidley has to follow if Kirkland, Mayer or Winston gives special bonuses in Chicago. Gooooo Mayer! Gooooo Winston! Goooo Kirkland!

1:56 et al. Of course NY and SF associates bill out at slightly higher rates. Do you realize what the freaking overhead is for you?? The rental rate for your private offices alone costs an arm and a leg. Firms need to spend more on you to get the same amount of money back in net profits as say a Chicago associate.

A note based on the comments from 2:03 and 2:04 ("good neighborhood in LA (not nearly top of the line) and it is $1800. A 2 bedroom in my building goes for $2400-2600.")

In New York City, a good neighborhood, not nearly the top of the line 1 bedroom would run you about $2500 at least; a 2 bedroom would be closer to $4000.

2 bedroom for $2400?? 500 sq foot studios in NY go for that if not higher. This is exactly why NY deserves higher pay and clearly the firms that dole out the money agree. 'nuff said.

schulte . . helloooooooo schulte

HEllo.

While some of you have been whining or trashing my firm (yes, Sidley NY), did you notice the following:

Most bonus announcements state:
"Class of 2007: Year-end bonus of $35,000 (pro-rated) [note no mention of "special bonus"]
Class of 2006: Year-end bonus of $35,000; special bonus of $10,000 "

Whereas Sidley's states "The amount of the special bonus will be prorated for associates who joined the Firm this year after January 1 (...)".

Are first years getting a prorated "special" bonus? Seems like it to me.

(And yes, I know that first years get prorated "normal" bonus. This is about the "special" bonus).

You do realize that the class of 2007 gets zero special bonus. Pro-rating zero is zero. So first-years (I assume you mean class of 2007) are not getting any sort of special bonus.

lol 7:39 pwned 7:22 Sidley first-year.

Wow, Sidley's news is simply stunning. Now we're beginning to see the separation between true national firms like Skadden vs. regional firms who want/need to be in NY for the name recognition like Sidley.

8:01 - False. This is typical Sidley and continuing with their current multi-tiered bonus system for different cities. From the Vault guide 2007:
"Base salary is not the problem. Well, only insofar as “We’re on the New York-gets-more program.” Ouch. Californians complain about the
discrepancy that their bonuses are “almost half of what the associates in the New York office get,” and they have to bill more
hours to get them (2,000 on the West Coast vs. 1,800 in New York). Bonuses are a grumbling point in Chicago as well.
Associates also want the firm to stop bean-counting bonus hours. 2,001 hours get $20K. Not 1,950, not 1,982. Thus, “Message:
2,000 hours or bust.” "

Sadly, this'll be the scheme the Cheap 3, Covington, etc. follow. The fair thing to do would be to give non-NY associate at least a partial special bonus.

Chicago to 120!

1:22 and 1:23 should be the only two people allowed to post about separation between NY/non-NY compensation.

Oh, and for all the "why don't you just move" talk, remember that this works both ways. Since this is a thread about a firm that IS paying more in NY, shouldn't that same line be directed to Chicago-based attorneys? Why don't you move to NY?

Wait - I know why - the COL is too high.

Please. Let's wait and see what other BIG non-NY offices pay (Mayer Brown, Latham, etc.). It's one thing for Skadden to pay dozens of associates the same at its sattelites, but quite another for firms to pay hundreds of associates the same in their non-NY offices.

Regarding Sidley in particular, given the facts that (1) Chicago and DC are more selective than NY (though it's far from easy to land a job in the NY office), and (2) Chicago associates tend to bill more than NY associates, it does sting a bit to see NY associates getting these "special" bonuses. Yet were a large firm to fail to match the special bonuses in NY, it would reflect poorly on a firm's national reputation (which obviously affects non-NY associates). Perhaps Sidley will show some love to non-NY associates by "specially" increasing the incremental bonus (i.e. beyond the 2000 hour bonus) amounts (e.g. instead of paying first and second-years $5k for every 50 hours exceeding 2100, make it $10k, and so on up the classes; for that matter, reduce the incremental bonus threshold to 2000).

Lastly, bear in mind that there are firms "matching" the "special" bonuses that have or are contemplating lay-offs due to the recent credit crunch and the looming downturn. Sidley did not lay associates off duirng the downturns of the early 90's or the turn of the century, nor will it do so because of current market conditions (and this particular crisis has been much worse for firms with big structured finance practices). Stability in rough waters is surely worth something, maybe even $20 or $30k.

I agree w/ 8:41 re: the value of stability, and Sidley's need to be competitive in NY for overall firm reputation.

I also fear that higher bonuses across the board will equal a higher hours target, which I don't think many of us want. Yes, it sucks for NY to get paid more, but if NY gets paid more, yet none of us are expected to bill an additional 200 hours a year, I'm okay with that. At some point they will want more from us if they have to keep increasing compensation for their entire roster of associates.

Look, compensation in Chicago follows a consistent pattern:

1. K&E
2. Skadden/Kaye Scholer
3. Latham
4. Mayer/Sidley
5. Jenner/Winston/McDermott
6. Other big firms which pay a small bonus
7. Other big firms which pay no bonus

Matty -- "I have a 2br apt for less than 1200.."

I know someone else already posted this, but if you have a 2br for less than 1200, you must live in an absolute toilet. i'm not saying 2brs in nice areas of california cost anywhere near as much in NY, but in LA if you are spending less than 2000-2500 for a 2br, you probably live in the ghetto. HTH.

i get a lick out of the schizo nature of NY associates. if someone points out that they bring home (before bonus) more than a NY associate, everyone smugly points out how the non-NYer gets a small bonus and salary compression, and thus isn't as well off as a NY associate.

if a non-NYer complains about a smaller bonus, the NYers get all red faced and start whining about how expensive NY is and how even with those bonuses and huge yearly raises, they're still poorer than non-NYers.

make up your damn minds.

You have a problem if the only way you can get a raise or bonus is if every other lawyer in your firm or city gets one. It's expensive to raise everyone to what only some deserve. Speak up!

Anonymous @ 9:33:

Please tell me English is not your first language.

No one mentions how unfair it is for, say, firms in Texas to be paying the full amount to associates when that money causes you to live like a king down there. In the end, I'm not going to fret about the fact that the NY associates in my firm are getting paid more--welcome to market forces. While I certainly want more $$$, and I do enjoy being well-compensated for my work, I'm also doing this so I can, you know, actually build a career in law. The money is secondary.

So, congrats to our NY office. I still wouldn't move there.

why the fuck do other offices of firms think they should get NY bonuses? Just because your firm has a profit center like NY doesn't entitle you to some of those profits. NY attorneys work harder, a couple months ago you weren't even on the same pay scale so shut the fuck up and quit your whining. If you want more money GO WORK IN NEW YORK but you won't do that cuz its not worth it to you - you can't have your cake and eat it too.

and to all you people complaining that you have to shell out 2400 for a 2 bedroom apartment - I live in a 350 sq ft apartment in a nice neighborhood in NY for 2400 - so im not sure its exactly comparable

Seriously, all the non-NY attorneys' need to stop f-king complaining. Your cost of living (taxes, housing, etc...) is SIGNIFICANTLY less. You DON'T DESERVE THE SAME PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

New York bonuses are a cost of doing business in New York. If non-New York firms want to keep doing business in New York, they need to pay New York bonuses in their New York offices. That does not mean that those firms will jump to pay all their associates on the New York scale. To say what is blantantly obvious, this is all about economics.

I love how all the anti-Kirkland trolls have gone into hiding as they see Sidley's pattthetttic memo.

9:07=clueless
9:37(1)=partner
9:37(2)=moron

doesn't sidley have a low rpl?

CoL in NY is significantly higher because of the coke whistling through the schnozzes of the Ivy grads.

Also, New Yorkers choose to live in the commercial mecca of the entire earth - no wonder it costs "more." Doesn't mean YOU cost more. Just means you wish you lived in LA and want to be compensated for your bad move.

There are a lot of silly comments in this thread. The difference in billing rates between Sidley's NY and CH associates is minimal, typically $5 - $20 depending on seniority. Average billable hours are higher in the Chicago office, however, which means that Chicago associates should generally be more profitable to the firm. Not to mention that the NY office has been decimated by the slowdown in securitization and structured finance work, so the schism in associate productivity between the two office should only deepen. Cost of living is irrelevant - it's all about rates x hours x realization.

This announcement is just another premature attempt by Sidley to set the market in Chicago, and it will backfire as soon as word of Kirkland's bonuses leaks.

9:44...

Sorry man, 9:37(1)=first year associate

9:51

You really think that managing partners (who get all the extra money) sit around and say "well this office made more money - so lets give it back to the associates cuz they DESERVE it"

jackass

9:36-

ha! stupid K and L keys right next to one another...and here i am, not proofreading. if i ever meet the designer of the QWERTY keyboard, i'm going to lick that guy's ass.

9:44

9:37(2) = moron. good job.

11:13

Re: JD Cleveland ... are your serious, or are you mocking?

So, I understand that mediocre students at non-elite law schools care deeply about bonuses at all the not so good law firms out there because that could affect their yearly earnings by $10-15,000 or so. Kind of pathetic, but fine. But can we at least get more articles that are interesting for the successful members of the legal profession among us? For every blog entry about LEWW or who gets SCOTUS clerkships, it sounds like we have 10 entries about stupid bonuses, random law firms, etc. Lat is losing a lot of readership from Yale grads and Harvard Law Review alums.

If you live in TX where you can buy a 6 bedroom house in a nice area for 350k, you should be shot if you complain. If you live in LA, drive a BMW to work and live by the beach, you should immediately exit your apartment, walk into the ocean and drown yourself if you complain. If you live in Chicago, where 450k will buy you a 1500 sqf apartment in the best part of town, you should walk out on your terrace and dive to your death if you complain. I don't care if you work hard. Bite me. I get taxed more. I pay more rent. I have no hope of owning, unless I want to spend $500k t live in a 350 sqf studio

@9:51 - "[Sidley's] NY office has been decimated".

Umm... says who, exactly? It's actually somewhat busy now, believe it or not, and there have been absolutely no layoffs, forced "sabbaticals", or other forms of reorganization.

I think 9:51 works at CWT or some other miserable firm that wishes they had a practice like Sidley's in NY, i.e., same compensation, reasonable hours and partners that don't yell at you.

Whoever was posting the Vault prestige rankings "Bonus List of Shame," please post an updated one. I really enjoy seeing my V20 firm's name still up there.

Jerk,

You just isolated a bunch of great reasons to move.

If you think Sidley has reasonable hours you're delusional. I want to go to work at 9 30 and leave at 8 every day.

he just "isolated" a bunch of reasons to leave?

you just "isolated" a reason you should get fired.

How stupid do you have to be to compare housing costs on a thread like this? My very nice 1 br in San Francisco costs 2400 a month (with parking!). But a 1 br down the street, in the same neighborhood but with different features (views, size of kitchen, closet space, etc.) may cost as much as 800 or 900 less (in the extreme). Go a little farther down the street to another neighborhood (neighborhoods last only a few blocks here) and a 1 br can be half the price.

So how can you compare one idiot's 1800 1 br in California with another idiot's 2500 1br in NY without knowing ANYTHING about the apartments themselves (not to mention the neighborhoods).

Hey angry guy (i.e., 9:41), try using a few less exclamation marks. You'll live longer.

It is really time to go back to UTR, which was by far a better blog than this.

2:03: " I have a one bedroom in a good neighborhood in LA (not nearly top of the line) and it is $1800. A 2 bedroom in my building goes for $2400-2600."

Well that settles everything. A 2 bedroom in my building in a decent (not awesome) area in NYC (i.e., Houston Street in East Village) goes fror $5500.

When you start incurring the same costs as me, you can get the same bonus as me.

F****ing Non-NYers!!!!!!!

What about the firms like Latham, Gibson, OMM and Paul Hastings? Anyone know anything?

1) it's true - at least for the non-NY based satellite offices in NY - that the associates at most national firms - like Sidley - are LESS qualified than in other offices, particularly DC and somewhat Chicago. and they generally work the same hours.

2) as a 4th year, does a 35k special bonus REALLY make up the difference in cost of living? yes, and then some. Assuming after taxes you receive 20k, that's 1,700 more PER MONTH in salary. A high end 1 BR in DC costs 2000 and it costs 2500-3000 in NYC. That's only a 500-1000 difference, when you're raking in an extra 700-1200 a month. For what??? As a DC associate, I think I can actually make MORE money in NY. This is true the older you get. Chicago is a different story, but DC, San Fran, LA, etc. are pretty darn close to NY's cost of living.

Also, New Yorkers choose to live in the commercial mecca of the entire earth - no wonder it costs "more." Doesn't mean YOU cost more. Just means you wish you lived in LA and want to be compensated for your bad move.

Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 09:50 AM
__________________________________

Uhhh . . . NYers both "choose" to live in NY and "wish" they lived in LA? Please tell me you aren't employed as an attorney or in any other position that requires reasoning ability . . .

I seriously doubt an apartment in New York can cost $2500 per month. I can see $1800-1900. But no way are peoply paying 30,000/year cash, after tax, for a 1 or 2BR. Most NY'ers also have no car payments, no car insurance, maintenance to pay for. I would argue that the COL in Chicago is MORE not less than New York. We deserve special bonuses too.

I am a 4th year Associate at a V20 in New York - we got our special bonus and it really boils down this. I rent a small one bedroom in New York and pay $2,900 for the "pleasure" of living in Manhattan. I pay $76 per month for my metro card and just starting saving money this year. My counter part at my firm in DC told me he drives a Mercedes and just BOUGHT A TOWNHOUSE. That is why I make more money than a non-new york associate, that is why I deserve more money than a non-new york associate. Clearly I am not smarter and clearly I don't work harder (I mean I am on ATL everyday) - but for me to live a life like an upper-middle class attorney in New York, I need more money.

"for me to live a life like an upper-middle class attorney in New York"

So you're saying you live beyond your means?

With MLB punting earlier this week, and following the lead of Sidley, I hope Philly firms will announce SBs for their New York Office. Come on Reed Smith!!

You pay $2900 for a 1 BR apartment? You're an idiot. Learn to live within your means. I'm a 3rd year associate and I pay $1500 for a very nice / sizable apartment on the UWS.

I've practiced andlived in NY, DC and LA. NY is so much more expensive than the others its silly. Arguing about it doesn't really make sense - the only people who would argue about it are people who have never lived or spent considerable amount of time in NY and don't understand what its like to live in Manhattan. On the flipside, there are no better restaurants than in NY (besides Moby Dick House of Kebob in DC, greatest restaurant in the world, EVER) - which might be worth it.

10:18 - let's be clear. your friend isn't a standard by which to measure DC. a nice DC 1 BR in the "manhattan" of DC - Adams Morgan/Dupont/Gtown - easily costs over 2000k. why should you get an extra 35k to cover an extra 900 in rent (900 x 12 = 10,800)? is that fair????

I guess all of you NYers who justify higher salary & bonus on the basis that "your office" brings more money in for the firm are also in favor of dropping the entire lockstep compensation system.

Moby Dick, House of Kabob!!! Excellent!

Nobody forces you to live in the East Village or on Park Avenue. People who pay $2500 or more in rent and bitch about it make me laugh.

10:24

Just because NY gets it doesn't mean DC should get it. Because DC gets it means NY should get more. I'm serious, too.

Non NY associates have no idea what it means to be a lawyer or work hard.

Manhattan should secede.

My 2br in NYC costs $5k a month.

But its not just the rent I pay for a small one bedroom, in a not-so-choice part of town, but the amount of money I pay for everything. My kitchen is small and crappy so I don't cook. Dinner in New York cost $35 per night (assuming you eat alone). A night on the town in New York can EASILY cost $200 and I am not a big spender. I spend a lot of money because it is a basic necessity in New York. I have been to other big market cities and that same necessity does not exist. It is what it is. I have little savings, no mortgage and no car and I make 35k more than a non-new york associate who has a car, a mortgage and a savings account.

10:17, as much as I'd like to agree with you, $2500 for 1 BRs in decent neighborhoods is standard.

I thought the same thing as you until I began searching for an apartment, and then realized that manhatten real estate is completely out of control.

I want to live in the world where a "night on the town" is a "necessity." And where because one's kitchen is under-equipped, it is a "necessity" to eat out.

hey housing:

there isn't that kind of disparity in apartments nearby one another in most parts of manhattan. another reason why the "sf is most expensive" argument makes no sense.

thats what we pay for, jackass

and since we work harder, do better work, and create more value we get paid more. SO SHUT UP. It should be even more.

10:11

I think 9:50 is saying that New Yorkers make that "bad move" and bitch about it, forevermore. Local ties or imagined prestige might keep someone who wishes she lived somewhere else from moving . . .

SoCal Third Year billing $360/hr,
NY 1st Years bill at $390/hr.

10:18: dupont/adams morgan as the "manhattan" of DC? You just discredited yourself, or you haven't been to DC in 10 years.

10:36:
You want that then move to New York. I wouldn't trade it because I love New York but ask any New Yorker and they will express a similar sentiment, but trust me, it costs a lot more than you think.
10:37
Perhaps you could stop writing comments to "housing." Moron. The disparity of rental apartments in Manhattan vary greatly by single blocks let alone neighborhoods.

The COL argument particularly loses its weight when you are talking about pay differentials of over $150,000 for senior associates. NY may be more expensive but it's not *that* much more expensive.

NYC Bonus List of Shame

2008 Vault Rank / Firm / 2006 RPL
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8 Latham & Watkins LLP / $920,000
9
10
* 11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP / $1,035,000(Punted)
12
13
14
15 Wilmer Cutler / $890,000
16 Williams & Connolly LLP / $955,000
17
18 Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP / $1,050,000
19 O'Melveny & Myers LLP
20
21 Arnold & Porter LLP / $855,000
22 Jones Day
23 Morrison & Foerster LLP
24
25
26 Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft / $1,000,000
27 Hogan & Hartson LLP
28 Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP
29
30 Ropes & Gray LLP / $855,000
31 Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker
32
33 Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP / $840,000
34 Winston & Strawn LLP
35
36 Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
37 Linklaters
38 Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe
39 Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP
40 Proskauer Rose LLP
41. King and Spalding
* 42. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (Punted)
43.
44. Baker & McKenzie
45. Baker Botts LLP
46. Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP / $980,000
47. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP / $1,025,000
48. Dechert LLP
49. Irell & Manella LLP / $1,050,000
* 50. McDermott, Will & Emery / $875,000 (Punted)
51. Jenner & Block LLP
52.
53. Allen & Overy LLP
54. DLA Piper
55.
56. Fish & Richardson P.C.
57. Fulbright & Jaworski LLP
58. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
59. Goodwin Procter LLP
60. Cooley Godward LLP
...
67. (Kaye Scholer Matched w/ Performance Reqs.)
92. (Kramer Levin Matched w/ Perf. Reqs.)
NR. McKee Nelson (Failed to Match)

10:42:
person signed the post "housing." douchebag.

For the last time, firms pay what the market dictates they pay to remain competitive at whatever level they wish to compete. Plain and simple. It has virtually nothing to do with who deserves what or who needs to pay more rent. If you are that vexed about it all, blame free market capitalism.

This is why you all bow down to Skadden.

BONUS STATUS BY 2006 RPL
Rank 2006 in revenue
by revenue Revenue per lawyer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Wachtell ABOVE MARKET $2,455,000 2.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Sullivan & Cromwell MARKET & ABOVE MARKET FOR SENIOR ASSOC. $1,565,000 1.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Wiley Rein $1,520,000 162.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Cravath MARKET $1,355,000 5.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Davis Polk MARKET $1,200,000 4.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Simpson Thacher-MARKET $1,200,000 6.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 McKee Nelson BELOW MARKET $1,190,000 1.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Milbank, Tweed MARKET $1,110,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 Skadden MARKET $1,095,000 10.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Cahill Gordon MARKET $1,075,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Fragomen, Del Rey $1,070,000 26.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Gibson, Dunn $1,050,000 4.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Irell & Manella $1,050,000 9.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Kirkland & Ellis PUNTED $1,035,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Paul, Weiss MARKET $1,035,000 0.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 Munger, Tolles $1,025,000 18.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17 Quinn Emanuel $1,020,000 28.3% SLIGHTLY ABOVE MARKET BUT PARTIALLY DEFERRED
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Shearman & Sterling MARKET $1,010,000 2.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19 Debevoise & Plimpton MARKET $1,005,000 8.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 Cadwalader BONUS ANNOUNCED, NO $ FIGURES $1,000,000 6.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Boies, Schiller $980,000 3.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Weil, Gotshal MARKET $980,000 2.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 Cleary Gottlieb MARKET $975,000 7.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 Willkie Farr MARKET $970,000 12.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 Williams & Connolly $955,000 2.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26 Finnegan, Henderson $945,000 11.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27 Townsend and Townsend $940,000 6.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28 Fried, Frank $930,000 MARKET 4.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29 Schulte Roth $925,000 6.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 Latham & Watkins $920,000 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Wilmer Cutler $890,000 5.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 McDermott Will PUNTED $875,000 12.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 Kaye Scholer MARKET WITH POSSIBILITY OF MORE & PERF. REQS. $865,000 7.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Arnold & Porter $855,000 4.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34 Ropes & Gray $855,000 1.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Choate, Hall $850,000 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Kramer Levin MARKET W/ PERF. REQS. $850,000 6.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
38 Heller Ehrman $845,000 5.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
39 Akin Gump $840,000 7.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 Hughes Hubbard $835,000 12.1%

Not listed: Dewey (Market with hours requirement)
Clifford Chance (Market)
White & Case (Market)
Morgan Lewis (Punted)
Covington (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)
Sidley (Special Bonus - Regular Bonus not yet announced)

OK, on the count of three, everyone lateral to Weil and Skadden's Texas offices.

One, two, three, GO!!!

Bonus List of Shame
by NY Attorneys (Source: Crains)

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10) Proskauer
11)
12)
13)
14)
15) Schulte
16) Wilson Elser
17)
18)
19) Latham & Watkins
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25) Greenberg Taurig

I heard Sidley had to cut bonuses firmwide after the loss of Punk from I Love New York 2.

for the last time the COL directly affects the supply and the market price for lawyers' services.

YES TIMMY COL AFFECTS YOUR SALARY!

All the New Yorkers on here should be in real estate. It really seems like you know a lot about how much it costs to rent in every city in America. You seem especially informed about the Chicago rental market.

Actually, no, you're a bunch of morons who think you deserve a "high-end" apartment in the nicest neighborhood of Manhattan. You think all associates in Chicago live in the Gold Coast? I have a nice (i.e., not "high-end") two bedroom in a normal neighborhood that costs $2,200/month. I have a good friend at big law in NY. He pays $200/month more for a place in Brooklyn that is nicer than my place. So stop whining about how much your fancy apartment costs and move. Oh, and your taxes . . . yours aren't really that much higher (if at all). Chicago has one of the highest sales taxes in the country, and it's going up. You pay on the income side and we pay on the consumption side. The difference? You actually get something for your taxes. Our transit system is so bad my big law friends are riding their bikes to work. I live 4 miles from the office and it takes 45 minutes to an hour to get to work on the train. My big law friend in Brooklyn: 25 minutes.

So stop your whining. Your best argument on why Chicago associates shouldn't get your bonus: it's a fair trade to not have to work with a bunch of NY windbags.

Yes, COL affects the market price, but the market price has nothing to do with what is fair or who deserves to receive more or less salary. NOTHING.

11:18: you could have saved yourself some time and just have written "waaaaaaah!!!"

2,200 a month? pffft. that wont even get you a studio in harlem. f chicago and all their whining. want to make more and get less? come to new york, crybabies. i hope they announce salary and bonus decreases in chicago.

Don't most industries have higher salaries in NY than elswehere? I think that holds true even for blue collar and retail employees.

And I'll readily concede the point that NYC COL is variable. I paid $165k for my sizable 1br in an upscale neighborhood. B&T discount is significant :)

11:18:

If it takes you an hour to get to work, you should move to Arlington Heights. Get a sweet place there for well less than half as much. Express train to the city takes you 40 minutes. Doubtful more than another 20 to your building.

The fact that Chicago public transit sucks adds nothing to this argument.

And why is your friend living in Brooklyn? That's his bad.

What is all this "fair" stuff? Do 23 year olds with no work experience "deserve" 200 grand a year? We're all at a net gain from market forces, even if they help some of us more than others.

you all are dumb. . I pay $4000 in SF for a 2 bedroom. . . but I get two parkings spots . . . and two stories . . . 1200 sq. ft . . .oh and a 21X8 ft balcony. . . 2.5 baths . . . and hardwood floors, brand new appliances.

life is good

11:23: Thank you for bringing this website to new heights of idiocy. Well done!

11:28(2)...

That contributes what? Ooooh, let's all compare! I bought a 2-story townhouse in DC 6 blocks from the Capitol building!! Life is good!!

11:31 - my point was that people need to stop whining. . .they just compare price and bedrooms. I was showing how much more there is that goes into it. I didn't even mention that I am two blocks from the train, great freeway access, four blocks from AT&T, 9 blocks from Market street . . .

Lat, you have a good thing going. Keep it up.

While NY cost of living is higher, what these decisions all boil down to is competing for talent. New York is a crowded field. Any firm that doesn't pay market bonuses in New York will have a hard time competing for talent. If you want to work at an elite firm that sets the market on bonuses, then you'll likely have to deal with higher expected billables and much lower chances of partnership.

To non-NY associates that are upset about NY-only bonuses, you should move to New York -- it's a great city. If you decide not to, then just accept that you work in a market-based economy where fairness counts for very little. There are pay disparities among localities in all sectors of the economy. Why should law be any different?

$4000 in SF for a 2 bedroom? That's yuuuggge!

11:33[2] wins thread

The only junior associates I know who pay $2500 or more for their rent are those who live beyond their means ... FACT, you can live alone in Manhattan for $1650-1700/month. If you require things such as a private doorman, a spacious bathroom, on-site laundry, etc., then you're looking at over $2k/month. But those who pay $2500 or more for a 1 BR in Manhattan can look in the mirror and blame nobody but themselves. I enjoy putting that extra $900/month in the bank while my friends try to talk a big game because they live in the Village or wherever else they think "sounds cool."

Sorry NY'ers, but the cost of living in NYC is not $50K a year more than Chicago so I WILL NOT stop my whining. Even if you pay $2K more a month than Chicago, that's $24K a year. In our office the NY associates got their $35K last year at 2000 hours (closer to NY market) while Chicago associates got it at $2400. We subsidized their bonus.

The NY office of my Chicago firm bills less, yes less, hours than the Chicago office. Profits are way up mostly due to large deals generated where? That's right, CHICAGO.

New Yorkers created this supply/demand market rate issue. Chicago associates need to stand up for their large bonus too. When you get your bonus memos post them.

If only summers started taking their NY offers over their Chicago offers, maybe the firms will notice.

i agree with 11:18. the fact that chicago transit sucks does add to the argument. new york associates whine about their taxes, but they forget that taxes pay for things they use. in chicago you pay as much in taxes, but transit sucks. i know very few chicago associates that don't own a car. it's not because they want one, it's because you can't go anywhere without one because our transit sucks.

11:26 proves the point. a chicago associate could move to arlington. well, a ny associate can move somewhere cheaper too. instead, you all think you're too good to live in brooklyn.

as 11:24 says: "waaaaaaah!!!"

i agree with 11:18. the fact that chicago transit sucks does add to the argument. new york associates whine about their taxes, but they forget that taxes pay for things they use. in chicago you pay as much in taxes, but transit sucks. i know very few chicago associates that don't own a car. it's not because they want one, it's because you can't go anywhere without one because our transit sucks.

11:26 proves the point. a chicago associate could move to arlington. well, a ny associate can move somewhere cheaper too. instead, you all think you're too good to live in brooklyn.

as 11:24 says: "waaaaaaah!!!"

Enough complaining! This is the business we've chosen.

WAHHHHHHHHH! Please send me a listing for this $1600 apartment. I guarantee it has rats, its a 5 story walk up and in a crappy part of town.

Sidley did not give its Chicago associates the special bonus because they have people like Punk from I Luv NY 2 working there.

It's "waaaaaah", not "wahhhhhh".

The "h" is silent, so the latter would give you a short "wah" while keeping your mouth open afterwards without emitting any sound.

Joe,

Would love to live in NYC but stuck in Chicago due to certain circumstances.

Higher billables? Chicago has pretty high billables. Chance at partnership? Same. We have this "great" 2-tier system. The first tier they call you "partner" but don't actually make you a partner (except that you now make less because you pay your own health insurance). The second tier they really don't plan to let you see. Perhaps you read some articles about this system in the WSJ earlier in the year.

New York Taxes (for 1st yr. assocs.):
8.38 % sales tax
3.648% city income tax
7.375% state income tax

Chicago Taxes (for 1st yr. assocs.):
9% sales tax
3% state income tax

The point for Chicago associates is that 8 years ago New York associates banned together and "shared" their bonus and salary info forcing firms to match each other. Those actions helped bump salaries in 1999-2000 and again in the last couple years.

Chicago associates need to do the same. Seriously. The salary bumps helped, but having bonus bumps would be nice. Look, even if the "special" bonus was different by $20K (rough COL mark), it's better than the $0 that's looking at us now.

DC Taxes:

8.5% city income tax
5.75% sales tax

"2 bedroom for $2400?? 500 sq foot studios in NY go for that if not higher. This is exactly why NY deserves higher pay and clearly the firms that dole out the money agree. 'nuff said."

Well, not exactly. In los angeles, I pay $200/month for car insurance and another $500/month in car payments. With rent/transportation I pay $2500/month (one bedroom).

My friends in NY do not even have a car and maybe pay $100-$150 for the metro pass.

I agree NY should get a little more than LA or SF, but not by much (maybe $10k?). The REAL crime are these Chicago or Houston associates making about the same as California or NY.

My friend bought a nice 2 bedroom condo in chicago for $350K. The same condo would cost 550-600K in Los Angeles (and more in NY). Do you know how long it would take to save the $200k difference??

what do you guys want us to do? march into the partners offices and say - "hey, you guys should give bonuses to the associates in other offices equal to the scale of those we just received."

Point is, your anger is mis-placed.

New York City tax on clothing items or shoes under $110 =0%

Chicago for all clothing = 9%

So, it won't buy many shoes or certain clothes for brand/quality concerned adults, but helps when you have to buy kids clothes and shoes.

Look, we all know NYC is more expensive. It's *not* cheap in Chicago. We hate having COL thrown in our faces as the reason that your bonus (at the same firm billing the same hours at the same rates) is WAY more than COL over ours.

The COL difference isn't only in rent. Everything is more expensive.

I'll trade with the Chicago peeps.

11:57: your numbers re chicago sales tax are wrong. do a little more research. that's the base rate and does not include additions for the kinds of things associates in both chicago and new york buy: meals out, wine, bottled water, etc. i just bought a car in chicago -- because, as others have pointed out, it is a necessity in a city where there is no transit -- and the sales tax was $3k. sales tax on a rental car: 18%. and they're getting ready to increase.

"kinds of things associates in both chicago and new york buy: meals out, wine"

You put this on the same level as water and a car?

After rent, what's left? Food - yes food is more expensive in NY and DC than in Chicago and so is entertainment, but not by a huge amount. Travel is cheaper from NY to most destinations (big part of my budget). Public transport is same or cheaper in NY. Clothes? Yes maybe, but assuming we both buy Armani suits, I'll pay higher sales taxes on them.

Why do NY associates get paid more? Easy -- more people do not want to be associates at NY firms than want to be associates at law firms in other cities. Supply and demand dictates the price, and here the price of NY associate labor is higher in nominal terms relative to other cities because of the lack of supply. Why is NY less desirable -- because COL is high, hours suck, chances of partnership are low, and there are other jobs in NY that pay more (e.g., IB).

WOW! I am amazed at how upset something as simple as someone else getting a higher bonus than you can make a person. I would sell my soul and my first born to be treated like crap and paid obscene amounts of money by a big firm. Instead I maintained my so called "integrity" and took a job out of law school as a federal attorney in DC. Now several months into working I find myself bored out of mind, and making barely enough money to pay both my rent and student loans. So if you really want to complain about being undervalued, because you’re not getting the same bonus as your counterpart in another city, try working in the public sector. Life could be a lot worse.

12:30...

You didn't even have to compromise your integrity to work at a big firm. There are plenty in DC that are honorable, treat their associates well, AND pay obscene amounts of money. But you did pick your poison...

For public sector lawyers, DC is rough. I can only imagine the same in NYC.

now that someone mentioned cost of condos in chicago we can talk about the real crime: chicago property taxes. i bought 3 years ago. paid $450k for a nice 2bd in a neighborhood manhattanites would equate with brooklyn. tax on transfer: $4.5k. annual real estate tax: $7.5k. and, again, we get shit for this. add the sales tax others have bitched about and we're getting screwed just as bad as, if not worse than, new york associates. and don't forget the higher sales tax is a double tax; i.e., it's about 20% higher than ny, and it's also on money we've already paid income tax on.

as for $350k for a 2bd in chicago . . . i doubt it, unless they bought 7 years ago or it has no windows, or it's in a neighborhood manhattanites would equate with staten island.

"I seriously doubt an apartment in New York can cost $2500 per month. I can see $1800-1900. But no way are peoply paying 30,000/year cash, after tax, for a 1 or 2BR. Most NY'ers also have no car payments, no car insurance, maintenance to pay for. I would argue that the COL in Chicago is MORE not less than New York. We deserve special bonuses too."

Is this person joking?

I hope so. I mean those of us who live outside of Manhattan aren't that stupid. My friends paid $2400 a month for a decent one bedroom 7 years ago. Oh, god forbid, though, it was a walkup (personal preference over stale elevators).

Where do you people live for $1500/month in Manhattan? Probably in a basement dump, a studio cut-up into a tiny 1 bed or on a 5th floor walk-up somewhere in Harlem or Queens.

COL is a big issue in NY. Never mind the 2 month broker fee to move in there in the first place. Lawyers are often not even welcome as tenants. Here are the real facts from 2007 RE data:

400 SF studios: $1900-$2600+
600 SF 1 Bed: $3100-$3800+
1000 SF 2 bed: $4500-$5500+

Get real people, it is crazy here!

All you NYers complaining about COL ...
1. No one forced you to move to NY.
2. No one told you you had to live in Manhattan. There are places in Brooklyn, Queens, New Jersey and Staten Island you could live in and even have a shorter commute. Saying living in the good parts of Manhattan is expensive is like a SoCal lawyer saying they cannot afford to live in Bel-Air.
3. You don't need to own a car in NY. There's $500-$1000 a month in car payments, insurance and gas. All you need is a montly metro card.
4. Food is not necessarily more expensive. Go to Gray's Papaya.

Funny thing about all the NY lawyers arguing about COL ... none of these people grew up in NY. They don't know how the rest of us grew up in NY without paying $2500 a month for a studio.

The five most expensive places to live in the United States

City Annual cost Percent above mean
Manhattan $146,060 137.9%
San Francisco $122,007 98.7%
Los Angeles $117,726 91.8%
San Jose $108,506 76.8%
Washington, D.C. $102,589 67.1%
(From CNNmoney.com, June 2006)

"I seriously doubt an apartment in New York can cost $2500 per month. I can see $1800-1900. But no way are peoply paying 30,000/year cash, after tax, for a 1 or 2BR. Most NY'ers also have no car payments, no car insurance, maintenance to pay for. I would argue that the COL in Chicago is MORE not less than New York. We deserve special bonuses too."

Is this person joking?

--and where do they live? 2500/month is a good deal for an apartment in any big city (Chicago, DC..). I'm guessing this person lives in Texas.

12:46 - last I checked the complaining is coming from those who don't practice in NY that didn't receive the same bonus. But to borrow a page from your book - I guess no one forced those people to work in cities other than new york, so too bad for them!

LOL.. just proves my point. You are comparing Manhattan (one borough of a city) vs other cities. Compare Manhattan to Beverly HIlls or Bel-Air.
Geez

The five most expensive places to live in the United States

City Annual cost Percent above mean
Manhattan $146,060 137.9%
San Francisco $122,007 98.7%
Los Angeles $117,726 91.8%
San Jose $108,506 76.8%
Washington, D.C. $102,589 67.1%
(From CNNmoney.com, June 2006)

2500/month for an apartment in DC is overpaying. Yes, there are numerous apartments that charge that, but you can rent a house (an entire house) for that much. If you're looking for a 1 BR, 2500 is highway robbery.

I think you are missing the point. What some of us are saying is that the NYers are saying they deserve more money because the cost of living is more expensive. To that, some of responded, no one forced you to live there. You chose to live in a city where POTENTIALLY could be more expensive. There are cheaper alternatives in NY that non-native NYers are clueless to.

12:46 - last I checked the complaining is coming from those who don't practice in NY that didn't receive the same bonus. But to borrow a page from your book - I guess no one forced those people to work in cities other than new york, so too bad for them!

1:02 - it doesn't sound like the nyers are complaining anymore. sounds like you're complaining. move to nyc if you want the bigger bonus. stay put if you prefer chicago.

i could care less about what others are making in other markets. sorry!

i want to hear thoughts on Sidley NY. I am trying to make up my mind for next summer.

undecided,

I can speak generally to Sidley (I don't work in their NY office). So far, I've been very pleased with my choice to work for Sidley. I'm surrounded by smart, hard-working people (as you get with any V20 firm), but I haven't met a single person whom I would consider mean, a jerk, a tough boss, etc. You don't get quite as many fancy perks as you might at other law firms, but the tradeoff in the more laid back (comparatively---this is still a big law firm) lifestyle is more than worth it.

12:59, you called it.

For NY associates to compare the cost of living in Manhattan to the cost of living in L.A. as a whole, including the hellish areas in east and south L.A., and places with commutes further than Jersey or Connecticut, is ridiculous. (Remember, L.A. County alone is over 4000 square miles, larger than Rhode Island and Delaware, and many people here end up commuting 50+ miles each way.)

If you must live in Manhattan and not in Brooklyn or Queens, then the only fair comparison is to Beverly Hills or Malibu or other prime areas of L.A., where the cost differential is not nearly as big as the NY people make it out to be. And don't forget to add the $700+ per month in commuting expenses that L.A. people have to pay that Manhattan dwellers do not.

Define fancy perks, out of curiosity.

undecided,

I suppose I'm referring to the fact that Sidley won't be throwing you tons of free food, firm happy hours (there may be one every couple months), parties (there are a couple per year), all sorts of subsidies, etc. that some firms do give you. Their summer program itself is pretty lavish, but (as is the case with most firms) it bears little resemblance to actual life there.

If getting thrown mounds of nice-but-not-necessary perks is your thing for a firm, Sidley is not your best option.

Did OMM, Latham, GDC, etc. move their offices to Beverly Hills? Shouldn't the COL of a NY attorney living in Manhattan be compared to the COL of a CA attorney living near their office in LA?

Models + Bottles

oh i thought you meant free car rides home for working late, paternity leave, the usual stuff- which are important to me.

happy hours are nice but not a clincher.

you do get free car rides home when you work late, free meals if you work late, paternity leave, and all the normal stuff. No worries there--I don't think even a medium-sized firm could survive without offering those amenities.

No one has yet to explain why the PARTICULAR special bonus is justified by the COL increase. It's highway robbery to give a 4th year a cool extra 40,000 for living in NY. What - your rent is an extra 2,500 a month? NO WAY PEOPLE. These special bonuses cover more than the cost of living increase.

Those in NYC who say that cost of living is an excuse for higher pay clearly don't understand economics. If the cost of living in a city is higher...one must assume that there is a rational reason. The opportunities, social and otherwise, make it a place where people want to live. The more people flock to the city, the higher the cost of living. This isn’t rocket science. So, I ask...why should a firm and associates in non-NYC offices be responsible for making you whole by compensating you for the cost of living? You enjoy benefits of living in NYC...and the cost of those benefits is the higher cost of living. Why should any firm be responsible for paying you for those benefits?

The fact that you are in a city where the cost of living is higher means you’re being compensated in non-monetary ways. It perverts rational economic choices when you can move to a vibrant urban area...soak-up the non-monetary benefits AND benefit from the a cost of living adjustment. Where was it ever written that every person in every city should be compensated for the choice they made to live in a particular city?

When going to work for Skadden this was one of my biggest considerations. Not that I was going to make the same as every associate in every office, but rather that the firm takes a rational approach to compensation and treats its associates as one team regardless of location...and realizes that if you want to enjoy San Francisco then you have to realize that there are non-monetary benefits that you will accrue...but, they must be paid for by you...via a higher cost of living.

This will be a big boost to NY based firms in other cities. Look at what Skadden did. Hands down across all offices. Willkie did the same thing with its DC office. I'm sure others did too. All else being the same, why would I go to Sidley in Chicago or Hogan in DC if I know the NY based firms are going to pay more?

How far away do you think Beverly HIlls is to these offices? In fact OMM has an office in Century City which is a 5 minute walk from Beverly HIlls.

Did OMM, Latham, GDC, etc. move their offices to Beverly Hills? Shouldn't the COL of a NY attorney living in Manhattan be compared to the COL of a CA attorney living near their office in LA?

2:34 is right. Now that bonuses and salaries are more transparent, Chicago based firms will lose quality recruits to NY-based firms IN CHICAGO for the first time next year. (That is, unless they match.)

2:34...

"All else being the same..."

That's where you go wrong in your analysis. Yes, if all else were the same, you'd be right. Not everything is equal.

And you Georgetown Law 2L, first congrats on a summer job with Skadden. Second, would you find the same problem with, say, doctors who earn much more in big cities as opposed to medium-sized ones? For example, a doctor working in a big hospital in NY will make markedly more than the same Dr. working in, say, Charlotte, NC. Is there a problem with that? Different geographic areas have different market forces.

i think it must blow to work in chicago and make less than your colleagues in ny. ha

but doesnt firm like willkie or skadden have fewer chicago/dc attorneys, since they are so centered in NY, that bumping their salaries is not a big deal? whereas for latham to bump its NY attys AND its los angeles attorney, or sidley to give special bonuses to chicago office- isnt that more of a financial commitment than the one weil takes when it gives its 9 attorneys in some other city an extra 10k a year?

no? wrong?

How many associates does OMM have in Century City? 25? How attorneys does GDC have in Century City? 30?

Actually, 2:45, you're wrong. I have a friend who is a doctor -- he was offered a position in Iowa paying $400,000 but wanted to work in New York where he makes less than $200,000.

2:45...if the doctors work for a conglomerate based in NYC then they should be paid what their counterparts in NYC are being paid...same firm...same pay...regardless of location. The pay shouldn't compensate NY'ers for the benefits they enjoy outside of the office. One can rationally argue that the Skadden associates in Wilmington should get paid more that the NY associates for merely living in a city like Wilmington. They should be compensated for foregoing the benefits of a large metro area.

2:52, I also have a friend who is a doctor and he makes less in Kentucky than he would have in Boston (actually the same company that runs both hospitals), but he wanted to stay in Kentucky. We can trade anecdotal examples all day long---you're missing the point.

And GULC 2L, what about those who do not benefit the same amount from living in NYC?

But, we don't argue that the Wilmington associates should get paid more....why? Because the lower cost of living compensates them for what they have given up by going to Wilmington. That's the beauty of it all... cost of living is the adjuster for the benefits that you accrue or don't accrue outside the office.

GULC 2L, it's hard to debate this with you further because you exhibit a high school understanding of economics and economic forces.

ATT: Texas, Chicago and California!

You may think - but you don't know that rent for a 2002 grad pays half his pay in rent! Read my last post on average rents in NY- 12:55 PM

Go ahead and live in Texas with a house and Hummer. Compmare this to an average '02 associate in NY - going home to a studio and barely saving a dime is no fun!

If I parked my Hummer or even a Cooper Mini, it would add another $350/month to park +$2100 of insane NY insurance rates to go along with it.

NY is cool and we chose this lifestyle, but COL has to be comparred across the board. Considering this is the financial capital of the world, a higher cost per associate and income makes sense.

Law Firms establish, maintain business and representation here and most of all: It is their main source of profit and base of operation.

So why do associates and partners stay in Manhattan?

The subway commute is an underground-hell at rush hour. Open a sardine can, and you will get a sense of Times Square or any corner of this city. We deal with it every day - Every minute here counts, yet we still love it here.

But do not think we should be short changed. Sidley NY associates deserve every credit and bonus for their hard work!

PS- enjoyment of life in an urban environment has always been expensive!

*Yawwwn*

Are you kidding me? Are junior attorneys at top firms really debating COL on a law blog? Hey morons, people have already compared COL in other cities, probably with a little more depth than your emotional outburst on ATL. There must be 100 COL calculators on the internet.

NYers who bitch about rent: Shut it, babies. You chose to live in NY, you get to live in NY, so you pay to live in NY. Don't like it? move. No one but you cares anyway.

Non-NYers who bitch about pay: Shut it, babies. You chose to live in your city and work at your firm. Don't like it? move. No one but you cares anyway.

"Shut it, babies"?? That's a new one. LOL

If this piddly special bonus was really such a big sticking point for Chicago associates, they would all move en masse to New York. Of course, they won't do that (and it's not really such a big sticking point), because even without the special bonus, the Chicago associates are getting paid far more than their NYC counterparts on a cost-of-living-adjusted basis. This is precisely why COL is relevant -- it is a key factor in what the markets will bear. There is obviously some point at which a NYC pay increase would compensate or overcompensate for the COL difference such that no one would want to work in any other city. Clearly we're nowhere near that point.

"If this piddly special bonus was really such a big sticking point for Chicago associates, they would all move en masse to New York."

Why? They couldn't get hired at a NY firm anyway. They're doing the best they can right where they are.

GULC 2L, your analysis rests on the incorrect (or at the very least totally unsubstantiated) assumption that NYC associates are being "fully compensated" by the nonmonetary benefits of COL such that they would choose New York even if they did not get paid "more" (in flat, non-COL-adjusted dollars) to do so. The fact that firms who have presumably studied the actual metrics of this phenomenon came to the conclusion that they would pay more to their NYC associates appears to belie this. These firms presumably understood that, rational or not, the candidates they want would not come to NY unless they received extra financial compensation as an incentive to do so.

If the COL argument is gonna fly, the salary/bonus differential needs to apply across the board. Sure, the COL is higher in NY than other places, but the COL in the San Francisco area (which is where I live) is close to NY and is higher than Chicago, and Chicago's COL is higher than Dallas or Denver. So, if NYers are going to make more money than me that's fine, but I want to make more money than Chicago, or Dallas, or Denver.

Listen "Yawwn" 03:04 PM

- I would love to have you join me for my daily commute, dodging poor homeless people floating around at the subway platform, while thinking if I should check their pulse or call 911. Maybe the GPS is out of tune and your lawn water meeter needs a time adjustment for the latest daylight savings-time.

But for now we live in a $4,000 average rental and do not worry about terrorism, or pollution.

Are you all nuts to argue over bonus? Sidley associates and partners in NY survived 9-11 at the World Trade Center! A truly life altering experience.

I regret reading the many thoughtless comments so far - your poor understading and sincerity shows your lack of knowledge or character.

You can read my My Previous Posts:
12:41 PM
03:04 PM

Listen "Yawwn" 03:04 PM

- I would love to have you join me for my daily commute, dodging poor homeless people floating around at the subway platform, while thinking if I should check their pulse or call 911. Maybe the GPS is out of tune and your lawn water meeter needs a time adjustment for the latest daylight savings-time.

But for now we live in a $4,000 average rental and do not worry about terrorism, or pollution.

Are you all nuts to argue over bonus? Sidley associates and partners in NY survived 9-11 at the World Trade Center! A truly life altering experience.

I regret reading the many thoughtless comments so far - your poor understading and sincerity shows your lack of knowledge or character.

You can read my My Previous Posts:
12:41 PM
03:04 PM

Listen "Yawwn" 03:04 PM

- I would love to have you join me for my daily commute, dodging poor homeless people floating around at the subway platform, while thinking if I should check their pulse or call 911. Maybe the GPS is out of tune and your lawn water meeter needs a time adjustment for the latest daylight savings-time.

But for now we live in a $4,000 average rental and do not worry about terrorism, or pollution.

Are you all nuts to argue over bonus? Sidley associates and partners in NY survived 9-11 at the World Trade Center! A truly life altering experience.

I regret reading the many thoughtless comments so far - your poor understading and sincerity shows your lack of knowledge or character.

You can read my My Previous Posts:
12:41 PM
03:04 PM

"everyone knows that sidley's ny office attracts only those people who couldn't get offers at better places in ny."

I apologize for returning to a post made so long ago for no other reason but to defend Sidley, but the above comment is definitely news to me. T10, top 1/3rd (roughly) chose Sidley NY over multiple V15s (if that's how we define "better"). I don't think a choice like this is THAT uncommon...and I don't think it's a stupid one either.

I do, however, think that Sidley has made an unwise decision in granting this bonus to only its NY office. For firm solidarity/morale reasons, my vote would be to grant to all major market offices or none.

I've no problem with folks in NYC getting more for living in that cess pool. Four years of Columbia undergrad taught me all I needed to know about just how rotten that Apple is. So take you 30, 50, hell 100K special bonus. I'll continue to live in sunny CA on my meager existence of a quarter mil a year.

Bad presumption. I assume you are now out of work Anon.

What is all this "you choose to live in NY" crap? Granted, for many this is true, but is this place really populated by a bunch of 25 year olds who just float around the country searching for the cheapest apartments, the most fun, and the highest pay?

Many of us live in NY because this is where our families are - we're here caring for aging relatives, because of our spouse's job, etc. While it is true that us natives know where to find lower COL, I am getting sick of the assumption that every NY associate is some transplant seeking better happy hours.

5:41, you can't possibly think you represent anything more than a miniscule minority. Most NYers are transplants to NY -- especially those NYers that are lawyers at large law firms. The great majority of NYU, Columbia and HLS students go to work for NY Biglaw -- most of these people have zero family connections to the City.

I grew up in NY and I chose to come out to LA.
I have many friends in NY who are lawyers. Some of these friends grew up in NY with me. NONE of these friends live in Manhattan.
Some of these friends grew up elsewhere and they now ALL live in Manhattan and complain that it's too expensive.

What most of us (arguing this point) are saying is that the people using COL as some sort of justification for higher pay in NY are just plain wrong. Like you said, if you grew up in NYC, you know how to live in NYC without the higher COL. But the ones that choose to live in $3000 apartments in Manhattan... no one is forcing you to do so.

I grew up in NY and I chose to come out to LA.
I have many friends in NY who are lawyers. Some of these friends grew up in NY with me. NONE of these friends live in Manhattan.
Some of these friends grew up elsewhere and they now ALL live in Manhattan and complain that it's too expensive.

What most of us (arguing this point) are saying is that the people using COL as some sort of justification for higher pay in NY are just plain wrong. Like you said, if you grew up in NYC, you know how to live in NYC without the higher COL. But the ones that choose to live in $3000 apartments in Manhattan... no one is forcing you to do so.

5:33,

To which Anon are you addressing?

avoding this debate about paying chicago less (its a bad move on my firms part, no doubt about it) i want to also add that i went to a Top5 law school, towards the top of my class, had offers in NY from Simpson, Skadden, Paul Weiss, etc.

Chose Sidley because of a lack of assholes.

dont regret it one bit either.

8:20

Bingo. That's exactly what I'm talking about (as in I totally agree with the comment re: the lack of a-holes).

If 5:33's comment was to me (I am 511), I wasn't making a presumption with respect to thinking that my choice was uncommon or poor. Rather, I was basing it upon what i generally saw to be the trend amongst my peers in choosing between firms. I also don't see why you'd assume that I'm out of work....?

First, Sidley is a great firm and offers a laid-back work environment. It is considered far more "humane" than most other biglaw firms.

All this talk about NY v. non-NY bonuses is pure greed. Do you guys realize what non-attorneys must think of the legal profession when it reads these posts? A bunch of money-grubbing people. One wonders why lawyers have a bad reputation, which used to be an honorable profession. Entry-level biglaw lawyers are more than well compensated. Remember that 1st year associates weren't even making 160k a year ago....

9:49

I'm not sure I consider unequal pay for equal work "humane". Maybe it is where you come from.

Presumably you are a white male partner.

nycol (aka annoying multiple poster at 4:59, 5:02 and 5:06 who does not know to hit the "post" button just once time):

What the hell are you talking about? Your post is incoherent. In response to the first sentence that does make sense, so what that you have to tolerate homeless people. I doubt you have ever checked one of their pulses, so spare me the hyperbole. Do you think there are no homeless in SF, LA or DC? Have you ever been anywhere?

5:41 - I am not assuming anything- I said you CHOSE to live and/or work in NY, and I was right. Maybe you chose it for different reasons than others, but you chose it nonetheless.

All of this would be much easier to take if Sidley's Management Committee would provide a justification for the disparity (instead of leaving all of us to guess) and admit that the Cravath bonus structure which they tried to meet, solely for the purpose of optics, has actually relegated the firm to second-tier status in terms of compensation. Sidley can only pretend to be among the best of the best as long as it refuses to compensate all of its associates equally.

12:32 agreed. A true national firm would match in all our offices. I'm hardly in my home city anyway and work seamlessly with my colleagues all over the country. Beginning to resent this second class treatment.

Message to Sidley management if anyone is listening - rethink the message you are sending to your associates and clients outside NY.

This is not the first time you have done this, recently, and if you think it doesn't significantly affect associate morale, you're mistaken. Many hours yesterday were spent talking about this in associate offices, in hushed but resentful tones.

Guess how many associates will take a recruiter call this month who otherwise would not have? Not zero.

Guess how many prospective associates will remember this when deciding between Sidley and another firm? Again, not zero.

And to 9:49 (10:19, spot on, only a partner would talk like this), there may have been a time when Sidley was more humane than other big firms, in terms of both hours and attitudes, but anyone who has worked here a while knows that time has long since passed.

Is Sidley NY really that much less selective than DC or Chicago? I'm a 2L considering a summer offer there. If I want to do some of the exclusive work that DC has, for example, health care, how hard would it be for me to get a permanent offer from DC after a summer in NY?

3:03 pm... I don’t understand economics? Well, the college where I taught the subject and my students would disagree. Listen, cost of living adjustments pervert rational economic thinking just like the minimum wage distorts economic choices. You can believe that or not, but serious economics no longer questions these things. From a policy perspective there are reasons why you would want to have a minimum wage or adjust a person’s wage by the cost of living in a particular region...but, from a rational economic point-of-view it makes no sense to do it. Cost of living adjustments create an arms race among area employers that lead to over compensation for living in a region that already compensates people through non-work benefits.

There is a natural inclination for people to want to live in certain regions around the country. Many people like large urban centers, for instance...so they flock to them. This increased competition for scarce housing and seats at restaurants increases the cost for everyone. In economics this cost of living you talk about is the free market’s way of sorting out and placing a pricing on those things wanted most by people. A choice to live in a high cost of living area brings with it benefits (the non-workplace benefits) and costs (higher cost of living). But, the firm should not be asked nor should it pay for these benefits. A firm who pays for those benefits perverts the decision making model that a person uses when determining if they should move to NYC. You should not be held harmless for making the choice. You will accrue benefits by living there...an employer’s cost of living adjustment masks the true costs of enjoying those benefits and makes the decision making model irrational.

You can disagree with this all you want...and rationally argue that you deserve a higher wage because you’re a better attorney. But, from the perspective of economics...it makes no sense to argue that you deserve a high wage because the cost of living is higher in NYC than other parts of the country.