Now that's what I call a bonus.

OMM modification to their bonus structure?? When Santa Claus comes flying out of my butt with his reindeer.

2400 hours -- $55k -- Class of 2006

Someone got jacked this holiday season, and it wasn't KE!

2400 hrs -- with class rating -- $70K -- Class of 2005.

Hey, look, a Kirkland thread!

Now, imagine if you will, Sidley associates posting about their super- duper-mega-bitchin'-bad-assness in THIS thread.

I know, I can't even imagine it either. Such acts are the exclusive province of (very well compensated) Kirkland associates.

This makes me sad.

The "Big 3" in LA better be paying attention . . .

Class of 2003: 2050 hours = 20K.

Any JD Chicago news?

You know... the average billable hours in NYC is supposedly 2100, which theoretically nets you $45K at market.

In the other thread, an NYC associate indicated that 2450 gave him or her $55K.

Then the extra 350 hours netted them an extra 10 grand, for a pre-tax amount of $28.57 per hour and a post-tax amount of close to $17 dollars per hour.

I'd prefer the extra 30 hours per month or 8 hours a week...

2150 hrs -- with class rating -- $48.5K -- Class of 2006

2150 hrs -- with class rating -- $48.5K -- Class of 2006

These numbers don't seem that impressive yet. What gives? Let's here more news.

I came across this site via Dealbreaker, and I just wanted to say if I was working 2400 hours a year, I wouldn't be bragging about a $215,000 salary. That's a pitiful return.

But it is amusing how you all fall for the bait.

6:09 -- What we're starting to see is a division b/n the top firms that can handle the bonuses and the pretenders like OMM.

If Latham significantly exceeds OMM (which everyone expects), then the "Big 3" in LA is officially over. OMM isn't keeping up in profits or pay. Firms like Latham, Kirkland, NY firms etc. have beaten them.

5:59, I'll take my 2100 hours and my $45K and you can keep your 2400 hours and $55K.

If I see anyone below 2200 with higher than 45K for Class of 2006, then I'll actually be impressed.

2025 hrs -- $70k -- 2004 (West Coast)

agree with 5:59. 55K for 2400 is not that exciting.

2006, <<1800, with class, $30k.

JD Chicago came through, and huge. The No-Bonus rap is finally dead and burried. Not NY special, but approaching NY market. Don't know if they're Chicago market, since no one else seems to have decided what the market is yet. Still, after a long drought, this is sweet vindication. Plus, I don't have to work with Kirkland ASSociates.

JD to market - woo-hoo!!

what do you get if you want to bill a reasonable number of hours (ie: less than 2100?). I don't care about people who bill 2400. 2400 hours = no life

trader--It's worse than that--it's 2400 billable hours, which, even at K&E, is at least 2550-2600 hours of "work".

By the billable hour standard, your annual hours "worked" approximates zero, you mindless gambler SOB.

6:39 --

More details please! Year? Did you bet a bonus in the past? Are you pulling my leg?

6:29: These folks are only really "bragging" relative to other law firm bonuses. Just like whatever you earn per year is nothing compared to Warren Buffet.

Chief Justice Roberts only makes around $212K. What a "pitiful return" for him. If Chief Justice Roberts was smart, he would work in finance/trading like you do!

Uh, I call b.s. on JD Chicago getting NY (non-special) bonuses.

A big fat steaming pile of shit. That's what you get. You, my friend will be another 6-7 associate bitching that you were passed up for partner even though you "worked hard and were well liked." Your lazy son, you will never make it.

If Chief Justice Roberts "were" smart.

6:41--what bucket shop do you work/hope to work at? They must make a practice of telling you to cut your own time. 2400 at K&E (in any group where 2400 is genuinely attainable) is E-Z. Roll 185 in normal months, make up for it with a couple (or a few) big months. It's the guys billing 3000+ who have no life.

6:41--what bucket shop do you work/hope to work at? They must make a practice of telling you to cut your own time. 2400 at K&E (in any group where 2400 is genuinely attainable) is E-Z. Roll 185 in normal months, make up for it with a couple (or a few) big months. It's the guys billing 3000+ who have no life.

Class of 2006, <1700, $30k.

Yeah I see that the salaries all seem fairly similar, so whatever discrepancy exists is relatively minor. But I just don't know of any other profession/career where you bill 2400 hours (and apparently work 2600+) for 200k. It's obviously not a bad living, but the year-end salary sounds more impressive than it actually is, considering the hours required.

6:38 is clearly the smartest person at Kirkland. *That* is good money -- $190k to work literally nine to five. Congrats!

Amendment: 6:50PM is the smartest person at Kirkland. Work literally 9-4:30 and get $190k.

Yea, how do 6:38 & 6:50 still have their jobs? I guess you forst year you're not expect to do too much.

Looks like 6:50 is the smartest person at Kirkland. For crying out lout, you could punch me in the stomach for 1700 hours/year for $190k.

6:52 said "But I just don't know of any other profession/career where you bill 2400 hours (and apparently work 2600+) for 200k."

Seriously? How many 25 year olds in America even make $200K?? Not a large percentage, I assure you. There are tons of people in America who work very long hours, and multiple jobs, and don't get paid anything close to $200K -- some of them much older than 25. And remember, $200K is just for a first-year associate. It goes up a nice amount each year.

Put a firm of people like 6:50 (1&2) together, and you officially have a sweatshop. 2400 is "easy" and you don't start suffering personally until you hit the 3000 mark? Thanks but no thanks. At that point Trader is right -- you're an idiot to give up that much of your 20s and 30s if it doesn't mean you can retire at 40.

y2 - $60K total

Give me a break, 6:58. The universe of professions to which 6:52 was referring is obviously the universe of professions that your undergrad classmates would actually work at (or my undergrad classmates, anyway). The lawyers are undoubtedly the hardest working and poorest in my group of friends from undergrad (and we have debt to boot).

How many lateral positions are open at Kirkland Chicago, exactly?

6:17 - better than the near-minimum wage MWE provides for hours worked beyond the target.

Seriously, who can tell me how many associates and "income partners" (i.e., associates without healthcare) K&E Chicago might be able to absorb this January?

Any confirmation on the JD Chicago claim? That would be interesting/suprising.

Having sat in on the K&E meeting, I can tell you that the high first year bonus was in the 80s, there were people in years three through six in the 100s and the high sixth year bonus was in the 160s. The point is, that while working those kinds of hours obviously stinks (and who would want to), at least you get paid for it

Ohhh. . . I wish I were a K&E associate
that is what I'd really like to bee-eee-eee
'cause if I were a K&E associate
I'd be no longer f*ed by MWE-EE-EE

JD. Good hours. Good evalutation. Bonus letter: "Go Fuck Yourself". This firm will never be market.

The Chi JD claim was a cruel joke.

I call BS on 6:39 as well. They probably paid something (which is more than can be said for JD DC) but doubt it was close to NY market.

Did they say anything about base salaries for next year?

"5:59, I'll take my 2100 hours and my $45K and you can keep your 2400 hours and $55K.

If I see anyone below 2200 with higher than 45K for Class of 2006, then I'll actually be impressed."

These comments don't really make any sense to me. As long as you are reasonably competent you still have the option of 2100 hours and $45K at K&E. They aren't stiffing people who are at normal hours with average reviews. The point is, at K&E you have the OPTION of doing more. And as you should know, at a NYC firm, sometimes doing more isn't even optional at all -- but if you get on a hell case and wind up billing 2400 against your will, at least you'll be compensated for that.

I just don't see how anybody can say this is a WORSE system when all but a handful of people are getting at least market. I guess if you plan to coast through doing shitty work and below average hours it's probably not a great place. But for the vast majority of people, the bonus is at least as good as it would be elsewhere, and possibly better.

7:01: I disagree. The only other people that I know who are making more than $200K at age 25 are in finance. And even then, not all of them, just the ones that with "good" positions, such as associates at major banks. And on top of that, the people in finance are working *longer* hours than most lawyers that I know. I don't think that being a lawyer is such a bad gig.

K&E 2003, 2250hrs, $104,000

@Magliovelli - nothing about base salaries for next year... no bump.

Based on water cooler banter, associates in Chi that billed 2250 and were with the class (i.e., the majority, at least in corporate) received a bonus equal to Cravath regular + special (which goes a long way in Chitown). Higher hours, higher rating, higher bonus. Several people in six figures in years three and up.

I would doubt hours are any lower, on average, at any other big firm. At several pretender firms, I'm sure they are lower. Their associates certainly seem to have plenty of time to come here and whine about the fact that their firm is screwing them.

Bottom Line - K&E killed it for the third year in a row. I don't think a single associate here would complain.

Now DLA must increase their bonuses.

sucks to work at Cravath....not even #2 in compensation, and Wachtell hours to boot!

Who cares about DLA. A complete non-factor firm.

7:23, that's not disagreeing. I don't have any friends from undergrad who did anything other than finance or law. The bankers all work less or the same and make more. And they were pulling in six figures for three years while I was shelling out $50k a year to go to HLS. What other professions are you talking about (because I don't know anyone that works in them)?

traders pwn all in compensation for their age.

after i save $300k in biglaw, maybe i'll try something risky like that.

7:23,
I just don't really get how anyone can buy into a system that rewards you primarily based on how much time you spend at the office. Your firm might as well just put handcuffs on you until the day you leave. I'm much more in favor of merit-based pay, where results matter over face-time. But then again, you guys are virtually guaranteed a bonus just for showing up, and I'm not.

I guess there's arguments both ways. It's just interesting how law firms calculate bonuses/salaries in a way that is unique to the legal world.

Either way, enjoy the bonuses!

Trader, here's why the bonus methodology distinction makes sense. Excepting contingency cases (which are a small fraction of large law firm work), law firms only make money by selling lawyers' time. So the amount of time an associate bills is directly related to the amount of revenue that associate brings to the firm. So while an exceptional trader can bring in more revenue to a bank in half the time as his colleague (and thus merit a higher bonus), an exceptional lawyer cannot.

7:38, I assume that you went to HYP for undergrad, but even there a lot of people do journalism, medicine or political jobs that pay far less than finance or law (even for individuals who are as talented). These must be the other professions that the other guy is referring to.

what do the sixth ye...i mean "partners" make?

300K? 325K?

7:38 -- Examples of "other" professions include: computer programmer, accounting, consulting, doctor (though you won't finish school until much after 25), chemical engineer.

751 - a ton of HYP UG end up at shit law schools (non - top 8 or so) and are lucky to find work. No one gives a shit where you learned poly sci.

7:58:

"non - top 8" = "shit law school"?

What a fucking douchebag.

The bigger problem with 7:58's comment is that it's not responsive to anything in 7:51's post.

7:51, I guess that's right in an absolute sense, but definitely not the case for almost all HYP people I know who did much better than that.

My comment was addressed to 7:58, not 7:51.

agree with the last comment; this site is turning into autoadmit in a hurry

JD Chicago did give bonuses this year. While not Kirkland huge, they were big enough. And because it is otherwise a great place to work, there is now no downside to working at JD Chicago.

2004, above class, 2250, $79K

Again, these bonuses aren't blowing the market out of the water. 8:47's bonus is only $9k more than a middle-of-the-pack associate gets at Quinn. I don't understand why Lat's K&E bonus coverage consistently name-checks Wachtell. It's obviously not the same thing-- it's basically market (unless you're a star, in which case it's only slightly above).

8:14 --

any numbers? ... at least a ballpark?

market was $65K for class of 2004, not $70K, so my bonus was $14K more than market (basically the $80K market bonus for the class of 2003). And I'm in a considerably less expensive market than NYC ...

8:55,
Quinn has that stupid pay 1/2 now pay 1/2 in June for the special bonus. It should also be noted that K&E is not referring to this bonus as "special" so it can potentially be used as a baseline bonus for next year. But I am sure that every firm is planning on giving these special bonuses every year (sarcasm)

This doesn't seem to be much higher than OMM's CA/DC bonus for the same hours worked.

JD Chicago bonus very real! I was a total non-believer until today when I got my letter. From what I can tell, members from all classes getting substantial bonuses. Since many Chicago firms have not announced, it is hard to say exactly where we lie in market. I can say from reading the board that JD paying more than Sidley.

Got letter today. Received bonus. Definitely not K&E huge, but sufficient. I know you want #'s, but reluctant to do so because of firm's policy (because bonus is not set by class, it would not be difficult to identify associate).

wtf is up with people saying they don't think it's a significant increase above market? this is ATL where even an hours requirement or vague "performance-based" language in a bonus memo gets a firm tossed into the TTT category.

where's Fratstud when you need him: guys in my high school used to get $10-60k above market all the time....

Those of you who billed less than 1900 hours and got a bonus of 30k or so cannot be serious.

At my firm (Howrey) 3rd year associates who billed less than 1950 hours got no bonus and the distinct possibility of being shown the door in a few months.

Jesus, my firm sucks.

JD CHI --

Do you think this is a new trend, or merely a parting gift form the departing office managing partner?

How do you know others received bonus in other classes, etc, if nobody talks about it?

this is all well and good for junior associates, but what do midlev...i mean "partners" at K&E make?

250K? less?

9:40, it's not a significant increase above market. Unless you're "above class," you get market. Why is this so difficult for you? Wachtell pays "significant[ly]" above market. Kirkland doesn't. That's not to thumb my nose against Kirkland -- it and Quinn appear to be the only non-NY firms that even met market. But I just don't see where you're getting "significant" from. The "market" (set by Cravath) is just really high this year.

class of 2006, 2025 hours, $42,000.

9:59 -- see 6:03 above. Unless I'm mistaken, that is higher than what a Class of '05 billing the same (or even higher) hours at Cravath makes.

Almost every K&E Associate that has given information so far has been Chicago ... why, when claiming that this is not significantly above market, are people comparing the K&E Chicago bonuses to the NY Market? I have heard that K&E bonuses do not differ by market, but is that true this year as well?

Tomorrow will prove whether McDermott is in the same league as Kirkland. If MWE Chicago bonuses are anywhere as bad as what people have been fearing, it will hard to keep a straight face the next time we listen to firm management.

Chicago is TTTland. K&E is a sinking ship.

JD CHIs - you don't have to give exact numbers. Just compare them to JD NY (regular + "special"). Were they at least close to NY regular?

By not providing #s or ranges, you all at JD are screwing yourselves by letting the partners continue to get away with the "black box" bonus structure. And who knows, those at JD Chi could very easily find themselves in the same boat as JD DC next year.

9:59, with all due respect, you should re-read the numbers. Most of the comments beat the NYC market and most of them are "with the class." For example, you have a 2005 grad, with the class, making 70k. That is 27% higher than NYC market. You have a 2006 grad making 55k. That is 22% more than NYC market. Even at the low end (first years with the class) the number is 8% higher. I would say 22-27% more money is "significant."

No stubs for 2007 class.

Will Paul Hastings pay its NY Associates the Special Bonus?

lol stubs

10:06 - no, the KE NY bonuses are higher than those paid in KE Chicago this year (i.e. same hours, same rating = higher bonus in NY than in Chicago). Not a huge difference though.

e.g. 10:02's numbers are Chicago numbers, in NY, 10:02 would have gotten somewhere around $45-50K

Cock & Balls always pays stubs.

Got a call-back and offer at Kirkland Chicago (didn't take it), no call-back from McDermott.

What gives?

"partners" at Kirkland (mid/senior associates) receive around 350k (give/take 50) after bonus.

100. Yeah. It's official.

i'd just like to say that this is one of the best comment discussions in a while.

"Got a call-back and offer at Kirkland Chicago (didn't take it) ... What gives?"

"What gives" = you made a very poor business decision.

11:22 -- I didn't want to be in Chicago. That simple. You don't even know where I accepted.

11:22 -- I didn't want to be in Chicago. That simple. You don't even know where I accepted.

Don't think bonus is gift from parting management. Think old bonus structure (nada) is departing with old management.

Only difference between K&E NY and other offices is that they set a floor for NY junior associates to make sure they stayed level with NY market. Otherwise associate bonuses were calculated the same way. Non-share partner base comp is consistent with same seniority associate on the NY scale. Bonuses can be more significant (first year NSPs - class of 2000 - got as much as $200K this year).

Mmmm....Special K.

Sidley sucking it up full blast. No biz even being in the same breath as Kirkland when talking about Chi. Jesus we suck.

Sidley's revenue and profit numbers are nowhere near Kirkland's, and haven't been any time in recent history. Why would anyone ever have thought they were in the same league? Believe me, no one outside Chicago ever thought so.

Jones Day DC associates must be idiots. Who would ever stay around there? Why would anyone work there? Is this where associates go who are i) stupid, or ii) without other options?

Has to be the cheapest firm on the planet. Have fun in that buidling in the middle of nowhere. Nice work environment!

10:29, I hear you, but I agree that Lat's constant reference to K&E's "legendary" bonuses is a little absurd. It's especially odd coming from Lat. Wachtell's bonuses, which are consistently at least 400% of market, are "legendary." K&E's just aren't. I had never even heard that they were slightly above market until this year. Every law student (even before this blog started) is and has always been aware of what you get for selling your life to Wachtell.

Doesn't matter whether Sidley's profit numbers are the same. 2000-2400 at comparable billing rates should equal at least remotely comparable yield to the associates. Remember, associates are the donkeys who don't share in profits.

I really don't care that we are well behind Kirkland. I do care that we are behind OMM, Katten, Ropes, others. I bet we come in behind sheppard mullin for c sakes.

Cadwalader paid bonuses to associates who fell far short of their billable reqs last year (think 1800). Sweat shop my ass, maybe maybe if you get sucked into their corporate or capital markets group.

10:29 and 1:00 - Top associates in my class (2002) got 160, compared to NY market 95. Sure not everyone gets that big, but almost everyone in Chicago gets a NY bonus, and lots get a good bit more. Say what you want, the bonuses at the top are pretty great.

Wachtell is in a league of its own, no question about it, but Kirkland is a great deal. I am at a V5 and I think if I could go back I would have gone to Kirkland, not just because the average associate there gets 15K more, but also because striving to get the above class designation would be a goal to aim for and would give a reason to work so hard. I am surprised that none of the top law firms takes the Kirkland model; obviously most lawyers are egalitarian, risk-averse, etc., but I would have thought there would be enough of us that at least one V5 or so firm would follow this model.

2:08: "Top associates in my class (2002) got 160"
I call bs. Top of class, 2600 hrs = $140k. I don't know who is claiming to get 20K more but they only got there billing over 3000 hours -- which means they won't have time to spend the extra 10k after tax.

I am not complaining but let's get real. There's no need to pad already good bonus figures just to make the NY crowd feel bad about their lock step bonuses!

2:08: "Top associates in my class (2002) got 160"
I call bs. Top of class, 2600 hrs = $140k. I don't know who is claiming to get 20K more but they only got there billing over 3000 hours -- which means they won't have time to spend the extra 10k after tax.

I am not complaining but let's get real. There's no need to pad already good bonus figures just to make the NY crowd feel bad about their lock step bonuses!

2:08: "Top associates in my class (2002) got 160"
I call bs. Top of class, 2600 hrs = $140k. I don't know who is claiming to get 20K more but they only got there billing over 3000 hours -- which means they won't have time to spend the extra 10k after tax.

I am not complaining but let's get real. There's no need to pad already good bonus figures just to make the NY crowd feel bad about their lock step bonuses!

2:08: "Top associates in my class (2002) got 160"
I call bs. Top of class, 2600 hrs = $140k. I don't know who is claiming to get 20K more but they only got there billing over 3000 hours -- which means they won't have time to spend the extra 10k after tax.

I am not complaining but let's get real. There's no need to pad already good bonus figures just to make the NY crowd feel bad about their lock step bonuses!

No one feels bad about those locksteps bonuses when they're getting them for 2050 hours a year, which probably a majority do. I'm glad you get more if you bill more, I'd just rather not work in the K&E environment, especially during a slowdown, as I don't like cutting other people's throats.

Also, please press post only once. I'm sure its hard to think at 6:04 AM after billing 2600 hours this year so its understandable. However, I do pity the client you were working for last night.

So, a Jones Day bonus recap:

NY: Market

Chicago: Apparently pretty good

SV/SF: Competitive enough that there are no complaints.

Washington: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

This needs to be addressed -- and soon.

I STILL call b.s. on JD Chi getting "pretty good" bonuses. Since when?

Look -- JD Chi is getting some sort of bonus. I'm not at all sure that JD DC would even know how. But they could still prove the world wrong.

what is with all these derogatory comments about law firms on this site?

turning into autoadmit very quickly - only postive, warm and fuzzy comments should be posted!

what is with all these derogatory comments about law firms on this site?

turning into autoadmit very quickly - only postive, warm and fuzzy comments should be posted!

the JD comments are worthless without numbers. after years of getting nothing, you could just be wetting yourself over $500.

your silence only lets the partners avoid scrutiny. if the bonuses are good, they should want you to shout about it. if the bonuses are lousy, public pressure may help squeeze more out of them later.

if you're worried about outing yourself, why not provide ranges?

$500!!! Is that before or after taxes?

To establish any kind of bonus "market" in Chicago, we first need to weed out the outliers. Kirkland bonuses simply aren't part of the analysis (despite the fact that in all other regards it occupies Tier I, see below). Nor are Skadden's; I am ignorant as to PH and Latham bonuses in Chi (all three occupy Tier I in all other regards, though I'm sure there are some folks in Chi would readily dispute this). In the City of Big Shoulders But Not Terribly Big Bonues, there are basically at least two, if not three, bonus tiers ("?" denotes uncertainty as to bonus tier):

I

Sidley
Mayer
Winston
Jenner
Katten ?
JD ?

II

MWE
MWoods
DLA
LLordB
BellBL
Sonnenschein (sp?)
GT
BCave
others...

III

Q & B (?)
Holland & N
Reed Smith
SWeaver
SHardin (?)
Foley (?)
Arnstein
Schwartz Cooper
BF
DMorris (?)
BThornburg (?)

other...

C'mon people. There are 170+ attorneys at JD Chicago. You aren't going to out yourself by merely providing a range.

JD NY Regular + Special if you made your hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you JD posters are weak. pony up some details, or crawl back in your hole. I can't believe DeepDish put them in group I (even with a ?) based on this flimsy, numberless commentary.

I wouldn't put JD in any tier until I hear at least one number from one person.

It's like the frickin' SS there. If you don't put some pressure on the management, it could be back to peanuts next year.

Like others have said, Jones Day associates would be happy to disclose if their bonus met or exceeded the market. The reasonable conclusion from all the secrecy is that Jones Day is a step behind everyone else when it comes to compensation.

Katten clearly belongs in tier I, as our bonuses are typically more than Jenner and Winston, but slightly under Sidley and Mayer. This year, the bonuses should exceed Sidley's (if the postings on ATL are accurate) and may exceed MB's (given their problems this year). In other words, Katten may be #2 behind Kirkland in Chicago this year. we shall see in a month or so.

Deep Dish, add S.Shaw to Tier III.

Revised:

I

Sidley
Mayer
Katten
Winston
Jenner

II

JD ?
MWE
MWoods
DLA
LLordB
BellBL
Sonnenschein (sp?)
GT
BCave
others...

III

Q & B (?)
Holland & N
Reed Smith
SWeaver
SHardin (?)
Foley (?)
Arnstein
Schwartz Cooper
BF
DMorris (?)
BThornburg (?)
S.Shaw
others...

I heard JD Chicago associates got $10 Starbucks gift cards.

I heard Katten associates got an HJ in the boiler room.

More about Katten (Chicago):

My understanding is that Katten is having another solid year, with no major hiccups relating to the mortgage crisis/credit crunch. Revenue is definitely up (though this information is not that helpful without knowing what expenses look like).

It's nice to see some of those Tier III firms bandied about on ATL!

Any information about Sidley NY bonuses?

Someone at JD Chi needs to man up and give some ranges. We all know the associates in the office talk to each other about what they got.

I can tell you that JD SF (and SV) were pretty much in the OMM CA range for people with decent reviews (not linked to hours). So not great, but better than nothing.

Enough already about Sidley NY. Associates there who hit 2000 got market + special; those who did not hit 2000 got market. The latter should thank their fellow associates working west of the Hudson for funding their bonuses.

There are no men at JD Chicago, though there are some hairy women.

JONES DAY MEMO

Year-end bonuses for 2007 for associates who have logged at least 1700 billable hours will be eligible for the following bonuses:

Class of 2007: $0 (pro-rated)
Class of 2006: $0
Class of 2005: $0
Class of 2004: $0
Class of 2003: $0
Class of 2002: $0
Class of 2001: $0
Class of 2000 and senior: $0

To receive a special bonus (which will be paid in addition to the year-end bonus), an associate must have a minimum of 2100 client billable hours for calendar year 2007. The special bonus range is as follows:

Class of 2006: $5,000
Class of 2005: $10,000
Class of 2004: $15,000
Class of 2003: $20,000
Class of 2002: $20,000
Class of 2001 and senior: $20,000

Law students, consider this.

Once you're a little higher on the food chain, you'll figure out that 160k actually isn't that much money - it doesn't go as far as you think. You may think all this grousing about bonuses is just a bunch of spoiled & well-paid people finding something to complain about.

But a large difference in bonus size can equal a very significant difference in overall compensation, affecting your savings, your ability to pay off school loans, etc., and don't let any big firm convince you that it's really "nicer" or "lifestyle" and worth getting paid less unless that shows up in independent survey numbers as less hours worked or higher associate satisfaction. A lot of Sidley associates are really regretting their choices right about now, so get the data you can from someone who isn't trying to sell you, and remember that people who are pitching you on a firm are often not completely honest with you.

Move MWE down to tier III. Unless a shit sandwich bonus earns them a second tier spot.

From what I know, JD Chicago bonuses are in the same range as OMM CA.

I don't understand these modern compensation algorithms - they make me feel like running to the hills or whatever. But one thing I do know - I am entitled to at least 210k in salary compensation and 75k in bonus compensation.

10:11--who do you get your info from? Typically, not everyone on the mgmt committee actually knows what is going on. The place is run by an inner circle of the inner circle.

10:51,

You are correct regarding firms being run by a small number of people, but #'s determine whether the firm is having a good year.

JD Caveman - maybe you should just be happy to get anything. I mean, in NY, everyone knows that only pirates or greater get "special bonuses." Everyone else, from ewoks through cavemen should just be happy to have their job.

Can someone please post the wall of shame for cavemen, ewoks, pirates, ninjas, vulcans, transformers, and chuck norris?

Lat, please automate the deletion of substantive posts. If you want, I can write you a few snippets of code. It's really super easy . . .

CAN I HAZ A BONEUSS PLZ?????

Lat, do a thread about JD already. This is one of the largest firms in the country and is inter-office disparity in bonuses is ridiculous.

Is below 2000 really that bad? I am a class of 2006 at a v10 firm in NY. Things slowed down a bit toward the end of the year, and I think I will end the year with around 1900 client billable hours (plus another 50 legal hours like pro bono and CLE).

I had my annual review a few weeks ago, and it was really good (no mention of my hours at all). A good number of my peers have reported similar hours at my firm. We got full + special bonus lockstep.

I am actually wondering, are these hours really that far below market? By all accounts, my firm is doing extremely well and my peers are great associates. I would appreciate some genuine thoughts.

Are any Chicago firms paying bonuses for associates that didn't make hours?

Sidley B*tch (10:46): Two years from now, when I'm receiving my first year-end bonus, perhaps I'll share your regrets.

But at this point, given the credit crunch, pay raises, and the two large settlements paid out this year (to the IRS and EEOC), I'm just glad that the firm is doing well enough to pay bonuses roughly comparable to last year's (shouldn't that be cause for optimism as to next year's bonuses?).

All I really have to go on is my experiences over the summer. I liked my assignments (which I realize were hardly representative of an associate's workload, responsibility and pressure), marveled at the significance and sophistication of the firm's recent and pending deals, thoroughly enjoyed the lavish treatment, and most of all, sincerely liked every lawyer I met (and almost every summer). Surely you had a similar experience, given your decision to work there...are you now saying that the bonus disparity between Sidley and Kirkland (or Sidley Chi and NY) negates all of that which influenced your choice?

For now, all we 3Ls can be envious of is the fact that Kirkland 3Ls recently received Chicago pizzas (then again, it was Lou Malnetti's, to which I'm not partial).

". . . negates all of that which influenced your choice?"

Akward. Try "negates all that influenced your choice."

See Strunk & White, "omit needless words."

Oh, and I know this because I'm a ninja. Clearly you are just a pirate.

Class of 2005 -- 1900 hours -- with class rating -- 40K.

Sidley 3L: you're a tool. Sidley is cheap, always has been, and is proving it again this year. The EEOC claim should come out of the management committees pocket, their f up, not the associates who are all billing Xhours * Xrate.

Anyone know of Paul Hastings bonuses in Chicago? Have they been announced yet?

Agreed with 10:46 completely. For junior lawyers, you will see that the money really is a big difference. You will find out that 'lifestyle firm' is a crock of shit and it is just a way for cheap firms who cannot otherwise recruit the associates they want to convince people to work for them. Unless, there are, as 10:46 says well documented independent surveys, or you have first hand insight from people who work at a certain place (and not just from one person who is billing 1800 hours because he/she slipped between the cracks at their firm), you will be pissed in 2 years when you are billing 2100 hours and your peers are making $30-40K more than you. The truth is that once you are in the door, the firms will see you as a resource and use you... it is not like October rolls around and you hit 1900 hours or whatever so you take 2 months off and point to your hours and assignments stop showing up. You will still bill as much as at other firms at "quality of life", maybe more because some of these places might not have ample resources so you'll be doing the crap work of a secretary, word proccessor, paralegal AND junior associate which will make your days longer.

Also, I don't think law students realize, because while living off loans $125K, $145K, $160K or $190K starting salaries ALL seem like a buttload of money, but once you are paying back those loans (i.e. $1000-$2000) a month, paying rent for your own place (as opposed to paying rent with your loan money and getting wasted at bar review every week), having uncle Sam take close to half of your starting salary AND you wanting to actually enjoy yourself after working 12-14 hour days... you will realize that it is the extra $20K, 30K, 40K, etc. that you will make working at a place that pays market that makes the difference in quality of life as that is the amount that will go to savings or to wiping out credit card debt or accelerating paying your private loans 1-2 years faster. Situations may be different of course if you had a scholarship or have no loans due to parental or outside help.

All this is to say that if you truly think you will be billing 300-400 hours less a year at a "quality of life firm" for a $20-50K pay cut in your first few years as an associate, go for it... but realize you might be in for a harsh dose of reality when you see that you are actually billing 2200 hours and are getting paid a lot less than your peers and that $160K paycheck is more like $85K after taxes. All worth considering

All you junior a-holes on here bitch about bonuses, when in reality, many of you have no chance of jumping ship to a top player in the NY market. You are really going to dust off your resume, contact a legal recruiter and try to lateral over for what, a few measley ten - fifteen thousand more dollars?

It's golden to see these juniors see raw numbers reported in a blog and quickly think of exit strategies from a firm they had liked in the first place, just because of the $$, which in all reality is not that significant. Quit deluding yourselves. If you could have gone to a top shop before beholding yourself to the slop firm you're at now, you would have. Suck it up and realize if you wanted to be rich, you wouldn't be in law.

Class of 2005, with the class rating, 2175 hours, $56,300

11:42 -- PH doesn't announce bonuses until Feb. They wait for Latham to announce in Jan. and then do something like follow them.

Interestingly, they paid more last year than OMM paid this year, by the looks of OMM's TTT memo.

Sidley ass here, Kirkland here I come. What kind of work does Kirkland do? I don't really care, at least they pay.

A prisoner in the hands of a sheriff, is committed to the walls of a prison, from which, if proper care be taken, it is as difficult, if not more so, for a lunatic to escape, than for one in the full enjoyment of his faculties.

10:46 said, "Once you're a little higher on the food chain, you'll figure out that 160k actually isn't that much money..."

God that takes balls. I think what you meant to say was, "Once you're a little older and all your Finance friends are earning twice your salary and your Doctor friends are earning the same as you but are working half as much, you'll be jealous enough to complain like us."

Seriously, grow the fuck up and stop whining about the size of your bonus and/or special bonus. Most people, in fact most lawyers, don't earn 160k and they work just as hard as you. Get some perspective before you lament about your 200k+ gig.

Bullshit (12:09) - that's a losing mindset. you're arguing that we should be grateful to earn this much money because some others don't? you're using the wrong metric for comparison. you're either a partner or a defeatist. either way, you lack some pretty basic skills that a lawyer needs.

12:09, 160K isn't that much money if you pay taxes, have law school loans, have credit card debt and are supporting others (e.g. a wife, family or significant other) who are not making any money.

It depends right? If you are single, graduated with no loans and no credit card debt and don't pay much for rent then it is a lot of money. Just how you can be in any profession but if you have no debt and are not supporting anyone, e.g. $80K is a lot of money. But if you are making 160K and are giving 75-80% away to taxes and loans then you are not exactly popping bottles of champagne, snorting blow off stripper's asses and making it rain dollar bills in strip clubs.

Think a bit before you start slinging your perspective onto others and then asking them to "get some perspective."

11:27, Lou Malnati's pizza is awesome.

10:46--There has been very little information about bonuses at Sidley NY--only non-NY-- Are you assuming or you have actual information? Because nobody's confirming what you're saying.

To 12:19 and 12:22,
Right, because attorneys who make $60,000/year DON'T have to pay taxes or repay loans, pay off credit-card debt or support a family.

Do you see why your argument doesn't work? You're complaining about expenses that you have to deal with on a 200k income, when plenty of people are paying the exact same expenses on just 60k.

You can complain all you want about what you earn, but just realize that plenty of people do the same job you do and have to get by on much less.

I mean, seriously, who isn't paying off loans??

Bullshit - good luck with your future career as a janitor!!!!

numbers plz! k thnkz.

1:32 am: "Doesn't matter whether Sidley's profit numbers are the same. 2000-2400 at comparable billing rates should equal at least remotely comparable yield to the associates."

What makes you think that the billing rates are comparable? K&E's rates for the transactional groups (in Chicago, at least) are generally 20-25% higher than Sidley's.

JD ranges please!

BS 12:09 and 12:32, I call BS.

That "be grateful, you're already overpaid" crap is just the sort of nonsense spouted by partners who make $900k and then complain that associates these days make too much money, even though partner comp has risen WAY further and faster than associate comp. The fact that others work just as hard at $60k, or that still others make $.05 an hour in a Chinese labor camp, means jack in context.

The point is that Sidley bills itself as a tier 1 firm paying tier 1 market comp, which it clearly isn't at this point, and also bills itself as "nicer" and a "lifestyle" firm, which plainly does not bear itself out in the numbers from the American Lawyer surveys (either in terms of hours worked, associate satisfaction, or otherwise). People will obviously still choose to work here for their own reasons, but they should make that choice with their eyes open.

so can we all agree here that K&E's bonuses for a majority of its associates in NYC are pwning the "market" bonus established by Cravath?

11:58--Right on, man!! How many laterals does Cravath hire per year? Approximately zero, no? What the total likely number of lateral hires at the 7-10 (??? DPW, S&C, STB, SASMF, CGSH, Cahill, D&P(??), PW(??), S&S (??), WGM (??) who else?? NOT CWT) NYC firms paying the same bonus as Cravath? Maybe 50-100 (excluding Skadden)? Likely less in likely-to-be-slow 2008, right? Kirkland and Skadden might hire about the same number nationwide. So, 100 to 250 spots available for everyone unhappy with their bonus, spread out over 3-4 class years of prime candidates. Good luck everyone!!!

6:50 -- You're wrong or just naive. Those people billing 3000+ hours are lying and committing fraud on their clients--and so are the firms and partners who let them do it. I've seen it. I know it's true. To bill 3000 your at "work" at least 3500. That means you're at work 10 hours a day every day of the year. Or 11.2 hours per day if you work 6 days every week of the year. But, lying and committing fraud does have it's "bonus" and "partnership" awards if you are willing to do it.

2050 hrs, with class, 2003. Market.

1:54 - can't he be both wrong AND naive? c'mon. also, "To bill 3000 [you're] at work at least 3500." c'mon, x2

If you're rated below class, do you get a bonus at Kirkland?

2:07 - No, and you do not get a salary increase either.

1:54: H'okay champ. Tell it to the numerous people I know who have billed well over 3000 hours in different years at several different firms. It's not even necessarily that wearing if--(1) the client allows travel time to be billed, (2) you travel at least 40 times a year and (3) you like business travel. I do think that 3000 billables of reviewing, drafting, revising would destroy any remotely normal person.

Even if the 3k is not all billable in your mind, it's not the associates' job to write down the time--therefore, not the associates "fraud", if it even is fraud. If you're told that, for your practice group, the standard is to bill for the time you spend generally engaged on a matter, w/o regard to productivity, then you bill it.

If you work at a more conservative firm, then you follow more conservative billing practices. Realize that they don't apply across the board. Realize that things are different at your Wachtells, K&E's and a few other places.

Sidley Bitch,
I imagine partners who make $900k also complain about having to pay mortgages, credit cards, and taxes, too.

It's just notable that while you have it so good compared to so many, you insist on focusing on how hard it is for you to get by on 200k. Nobody gives a shit about your perceived hardships. It really just sounds like you hate your job and wish you had done something more lucrative, in which case, grab a ticket and get in line behind those of us who are doing the same job you are for half as much.

1:06 PM: even assuming your assumption is correct, does that mean 20% higher billing rate should equal 100% greater bonus?

1:06 - care to elaborate a bit more? I know there was a thread on billing rates, but no concrete info was posted. I guess I am wondering what a first year associate bills at Kirkland compared to Sidley and also whether there is a different billing rate for transactional associates compared with litigation associates, as you seem to indicate?

I guarantee Kirkland is not 25% higher across the board than Sidley. That means a $400 second or third year at Sidley is $500 at Kirkland. That also means Kirkland has associates billing over $650. Doubt it.

Bullshit - you're the one who sounds bitter. I don't blame you. It sucks not to be me.

Any updates on what about King and Spaulding do?

DeepDish -

Put MWE in III or below!

Haha Big Lawman,

Did you come up with that name by yourself or did your friends in finance assign it to you?

3:03--"does that mean 20% higher billing rate should equal 100% greater bonus?" No, b/c 100% larger bonus is about 20% (or less) higher total compensation. e.g., the 10:02 pm K&E class of 2006, with 2025 hours, and $42,000 bonus=202k total comp; if SA= 21k (not necessarily correct, but whatever), then SA total comp = $181k, for a net difference of 11.6%.

3:12--there are definitely different billing rates for different practice areas at almost all firms. There are different billing rates for different clients at many firms. There are often different billing rates for the same lawyer depending on what office originated the work, what type of deal/case, or even which lawyer w/in the office originates the particular matter.

3:16--So you're saying that there are non-NYC, US-based associates at Sidley billing at $520? If so, then they are 8th-years-to-be, right (i.e., class of '00)? That's a 2d year NSP at K&E, so maybe, apples-to-apples class-year-wise, yes, there might be $650 8th years at K&E. There certainly are '00s around $600, so maybe, in that comparison, 15% is more accurate. And of course I never suggested that it's 25% higher "across the board"--of course it isn't. For example, Bankruptcy rates are fairly transparent and they are pretty comparable b/t K&E and Sidley, but that's largely b/c they are transparent and everyone charges NY rates.

Lou Malnati's pizza is still awesome.

4:03 - I think you spelled "Spalding" wrong.

Lou & Malnati's to 190!

5:08--you failed to point out that 4:03 doesn't deserve a bonus for writing such non-sense. Seriously, what does this mean: "Any updates on what about King and Spaulding [sic] do?"?

5:15, you failed to see the humor in 4:03's post.

5:33--Apparently so.

Has anyone not heard what their bonus is at K&E Chicago? Either I got stiffed or whoever was supposed to tell me is slacking off.

did you know that if you work 12 hours for 300 days a year and bill 10 of those per day you will have 3000 billable hours?

Golly - how could anyone in biglaw work such hours? you'd only have 65 days off...

Golly 7:06: You're an idiot. Please stop posting - you obviously have never worked at a firm and dont know how billable hours work yet and how exhausting it actually is to obtain 10 billable hours a day for any extended period of time.

IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR MWE ASSOCIATES: You would be an idiot to even try to make your hours in 2008. Leave immediately at 5 pm, refuse to work any holidays or weekends, call in sick as much as possible, and absolutely take your month long vacation. The severance package you will receive upon being asked to leave is far better than the joke bonus ($5000 vs. OMM $27000 bonus for hitting LESS) for making your hours. While you work on getting your SEVERANCE package, not your BONUS, entertain the weekly recruitment calls and if you're from a top school, you should be placed in about two weeks (of course, only after you've gone on your full vacation on MWE's dime). Forget greed and ungratefulness, the compensation committee simply has no sense whatsoever to retain bright, hardworking, and efficient associates who could have gone anywhere out of law school. I don't know a single associate(from those who just made their hours to those who busted their ass billing 2500 hours) who's next plan of action is to not pick up recruitment calls or help their friends from other top schools/firms earn a ten grand placement bonus at their new firm. Peace out McDermott - have fun with recruitment!

The mood in the office over at MWE on the west coast is miserable. I have never seen people so angry at a job before.

Any word why the firm that boasts about having one of the highest per-partner equity shares shafted the associates?

Anyone who thinks that JD Chicago paid much more than 15K to any associate is naive. Remember, JD DC == ZERO. The place is a dump.

MWE associates are furious across the board (every office) at the below-market bonuses announced this week and are demanding immediate answers and a corrective response. Mangement better act quickly and decisively to rectify this or there will be huge departure and recruitment implications (may already be too late). For a firm that holds itself out as a worldwide leader to its clients, MWE is taking a very second/third-tier approach with its compensation. Stop playing games!!!!!! Short-sighted corner cutting decisions such as these wastes thousands of billable hours and crushes morale!!!! Does MWE think that associates across the country are billing now or talking about bonuses, planning to leave early and wondering what it will feel like to take all 4 weeks of vacation in 2008. MWE better open up the billion dollar coffers and fix this problem. The only way people might still stay is if MWE immediately decides to raise the annual bonus scale and match the "Special Bonuses" this year. As this is as likely as the Cubs winning the series before I die, I think I'll go back to bed, have coffee with a recruiter today, and visit a friend of mine at K&E. Merry Christmas.

Did anyone at JD Chicago receive more than 15k?

12:54, I don't think it is so naive as JD NY got full market bonus.

I think that it's funny that MWE management thinks it can pull something like this without very negative consequences. As we know, comp/bonus information has become very transparent and firms which do not measure up will be punished. If MWE's goal is to "thin the ranks" without mass layoffs, I think that it makes sense to pay the laughable bonuses. The problem, however, is that the very best associates, who could work anywhere, will be the first to jump ship.

Class of 2002- 2250 hours, above the class rating- $123,500 bonus and salary of $250K starting January 1. K&E pays way better than other 'biglaw' firms and the free market really is a free market- can't see working at any other law firm.

but you only would have made about $100,000 less if you were doing the same work at MWE?

why do i get the feeling that kirkland will be flooded with resumes from associates at sidley, mwe and perhaps others this january or february.

On laterally to Kirkland ... ponder whether the money is worth spending your life around tight-wad dbags.

K&E may be flooded with resumes, but I suspect that lateral hiring will be slow in 2008 (bankruptcy likely excepted)--PE is going to have a slow year, with the credit market turmoil. There's always a place for a fund formation associate or two, but that's largely b/c few make it more than 18 months working for BE.

McDermott continues to underwhelm. The partner in charge of associate comp leaves you an 11 minute voicemessage telling you (1) that MWE was a market leader last year, and (2) that MWE will reconsider its (cheap ass) bonuses for 2008 in early 2008 and adjust as necessary. The message: we'll pay you as little as we have to and continue to call ourselves a tier 1 firm and market leader.

c/o 2002 billed 2550 my last year there and got a $100K bonus. But who cares, my life was trash. Much happier billing 1900 and making market salary. Bonus isn't worth losing your health, friends, life .... and getting treated like garbage.

nsp at kirkland (would be senior associate at OMM, eg), high hours, high ranking, bonus about same as salary for total comp about 500k

5:47 is on to something. Keep in mind that K&E fired/laid off multiple associates in September and gave below-the-class rankings to a significant number of associates, none of whom got bonuses. Also, beyond the Class of 2006, no bonus to anyone below 1900. Rumor is that somewhere around 20-25% of those eligible for a bonus (i.e. working from September 1, 2006 to August 31, 2007) didn't receive a red cent. Just something to keep in mind...also, more than 50% of the associates in both the litigation and IP departments are either class of 2006 or 2007.