fizzirst

First

Jones Day New York sent out bonus letters to individuals yesterday. A number of the people I spoke to who made hours (2000+) got regular and special.

I am sure there are still people who didn't, so you can't call it a full match to Cravath. That being said, they are paying them to certain people.

Firms are parading themselves like peacocks with these special bonuses to show how financially strong they are. Recruiting isn't that big a concern because aside from the margins, law students are interchangeable and fungible.

My firm still hasn't said a word about bonuses this year ... awesome. F*ck my firm. It sucks.

If you bill less than 2100 at MoFo, and are not among the top-ranked associates in your department (who might receive merit bonuses), you will get a big fat bonus of $0, as well as a likely comment in your evaluation that you're not pulling your weight...

List of Greatness?

DLA Piper has lockstep and discretionary bonuses already

If you bill less than 2100 at MoFo, and are not among the top-ranked associates in your department (who might receive merit bonuses), you will get a big fat bonus of $0, as well as a likely comment in your evaluation that you're not pulling your weight...

DLA Piper has lockstep and discretionary bonuses already

DLA Piper is notoriously cheap. This shouldn't surprise anyone. They'd pull everyone's bonus completely if they didn't think it would affect their ability to land leftovers at the T14.

I think firms with sub-Cravath profits per partner are idiots if they pay Cravath salaries, bonuses, and/or special bonuses.

I want my firm to maximize per-partner profit, and then decide--at the end of the year and according to associate performance--how much to award in bonuses.

Why? Because I want to make a ****-load of money here when I'm a partner, and I want to reward associates who work hard that particular year--not those that worked hard in law school in years past.

Call me crazy.

1:35 follow-up; this is for all non-NY offices of MoFo (which means the vast majority of MoFo attorneys).

Doesn't McDermott have fairly high profits per partner? $5,000 for class of 01 seems criminal.

Doesn't McDermott have fairly high profits per partner? $5,000 for class of 01 seems criminal.

My firm waits until review time in February to individually communicate bonuses and then publishes a memo after the fact summarizing what the bonuses were. However, I am waiting and hoping that with advent of this site and the increased pace of communication about associate raises/bonuses, that they will act quickly and announce something now - they followed the trends on salary raises, maybe they will here too....

What do we think - in general, does the waiting help or hurt the chances of a special bonus? Is the special bonus fad dying or getting stronger? If a firm has been "silent" - do they have a better chance of getting away with NOT giving out a special bonus? As if we'd forget....

If MWE actually pays bonuses this low, I foresee a mass exodus from the firm unlike any the firm has ever known before. With Profits per Partner as high as they are at MWE, it would be truly disgraceful - inexcusable, really - for the firm to pay such low bonuses.

But let's not jump the gun. I doubt MWE is really planning on paying such low bonuses.

Boo Hoo I only get 5k bonus.

Are you telling me that after an increase in salaries and a slow down in business bonuses have decreased?

This is preposterous!

1:38 - I think you are delusional if you think your firm's decision not to pay market bonuses to associates is justified by the (slim?) possibility of reaping greater rewards if you make partner.

The Special Bonus is dead.

Long live the Special Bonus.

1:45 - Actually, bonuses have increased at the top firms that are diversified enough to be extremely profitable even after some business has decreased.

Bonuses have decreased at those firms that aren't.

A real divide has emerged. Can we call it Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 for firms paying full special bonus and firms in V100 that don't?

I'm a little sore from yesterday's pressing. It takes about 36 hours for the soreness to really kick in.

Lat,

Is your ATL bonus more than what I used to give you at WLRK?

-ML

I work at DLA Piper and I have no idea what you are talking about.

Rumor has it that King & Spalding will not be matching special bonuses in NY (or any office).

Rumor has it that King & Spalding will not be matching special bonuses in NY (or any office).

Rumor has it that King & Spalding will not be matching special bonuses in NY (or any office).

Marty - Is that WLRK in Cincinatti? I loved that show!

Anybody else on here have ICLE tonight at the legal center in New Brunswick?

PPP is a little misleading at MWE because they have soooo many non-equity partners. The firm doesn't take in that much revenue really.

What is the difference btw a regular and 'special' bonus?

Your bonus was $5,000? Damn! Most secretaries at big law firms get bonuses bigger than that!

I have a hard time believing that MWE is planning on paying their sixth year associates 5k bonuses. I'm a paralegal at the same office and my bonus was 2k for 2150 billables.

Why do we need a thread talking with people asking questions about sixth tier toilets like K&S, MWE and DLA Piper?

One thing we can all be clear on: here at Bingham, there is not the slightest, most remote, infinitesimal possibility, in the wildest imaginings of the most delusional associate, that we will get a special bonus.

It is possible that the elect few who have billed 2500 hours at a firm where 50% of associates don't even make 2000, will get a bonus approaching market.

But it is quite certain that our hours requirement is going to 2100.

Good luck with that recruitment.

crazy - you are a twatwaffle and, in the very remote event you make partner, will be working with a bunch of idiots, twatwaffles and assorted last resort associates. good luck with that!

Im at MWE New York; haven't heard anything on bonuses yet either way.

Been getting my resume together, partly for lack of that much else to do. If it keeps up like this im not gonna make hours next year anyway, so what the heck right?

Hey Frat Stud,

Did the guys at your high school ever get low bonuses? Was it a big deal back then?

What departments are the MWE people talking about? Corporate? Trial?

2:01 - a regular bonus is a bonus that is just regular. A special bonus is one you get for being special.

And a middle finger is what you get for being a hilarious dumbfvck! Now take your special ed retarded ass out of here.

MWE NY trial is slow right now. Dont know about the others really.

At the top 25 firms in NYC, PPP has risen 2x-3x+ since 2000, the last time bonuses were extraordinarily high, while associates' overall take-home pay at these firms has gone up approx. 25% or so since 2000. And that's not factoring in: (i) people are generally billing more hours than in 2000, (ii) billing rates have gone UP about 25%+!!.

For associates, the effect is probably a wash when you factor in inflation. But partners are making a SHITload more money. In that context, it's ridiculous that all these Firms are tightening their belts, especially when we will find out that their PPP went up at least 10%-20% this year.

2:01 Anon:

A regular bonus is the one that anyone can get just for meeting the hours requirement. A special bonus is discretionary and more merit based. Different firms call them different things.

A follow-up on the MoFo comments - this is based on the memo that went around in May or something like that, when the last raises were announced. There's still a chance MoFo sees the light and realizes the law firms don't just not give bonuses to associates, especially those meeting their hour requirements, or exceeding their hour requirements by as much as 149 hours.

MoFo New York? No word and no comments at all on bonuses.

2:08, I think the problem is that they spent all of their money on the bear/baby ad. (See WSJ Law Blog.)

2:01(1) - MWE revenue exceeded one billion dollars this billable year. I think they can swing more than $1000 for every year I've been out of law school.

MoFo seems to be all hype. What's the deal?

This is consistent with new new track my firm takes on bonuses. I am at a large midwest (non-chicago) law firm. In order to up our starting salary last year, we were informed that our bonuses would be smaller. Haven't gotten our bonus info yet, but I expect it will be not spectacular.

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO A TTT FIRM.

At least people at MWE and DLA Piper (or any of the rest of you) didn't get a pay cut for the holidays.

My firm sucks.

Bingham has already raised their hours to 2100. And they dont give market bonuses, even if market doesn't include special bonuses.

If you bill less than 2100 at MoFo, and are not among the top-ranked associates in your department (who might receive merit bonuses), you will get a big fat bonus of $0, as well as a likely comment in your evaluation that you're not pulling your weight...

Who's in a firm with an opening for patent attorneys? I'll lateral over, and we can split the referral bonus.

2:17, you clearly work at a firm with no special bonus. The "special" bonus is not discretionary. It's a one-time boost to the regular bonus. By calling it "special" instead of raising the amount of the regular bonus, firms tell their associates not to use this year as a benchmark for future years.

2100 minimums? That sucks.

2:26, Bingham pays market bonuses, just not NYC market bonuses.

Any ideas on the bonus structure at Winston (Chicago)?

JT may previously have mentioned a former firm where a special bonus was paid to certain associates over a particular hour requirement.

If we left before the year ended to go clerk, do we get any of the bonus (my firm used to call it an 'adjustment to our annual comp')

Heller has the same crappy bonuses as MoFo -- i.e., zip for anything under 2100 (though you wouldn't receive any poor comments in evaluation so long as you hit 1900). Orrick appears to be the only SF-based firm that is anywhere near market.

2:17, I would not get your hopes up. My guess is that both Mofo and Heller will issue new bonus memos early next year giving slightly higher (but still sub-market) numbers for 2008.

JONES DAY'S DC OFFICE DOES NOT PAY BONUSES. THEY ALSO DO NOT "ROLL" A BONUS INTO YOUR REGULAR BASE SALARY. SIMPLY NO BONUS, BELOW MARKET PAY.

Sorry for needing to shout, but it really burns, and future associates need to know because the frim is certainly not up front about it.

Everyone gets the same bonus with me!

2:33 - if you're in the Bingham NYC office, then NYC market is "market."

For example, a 6th year associate (class of 2001) billing between 2000 and 2100 hours will get approximately $5,000.

WOW.

Not a peep from anyone in NY, formally or informally, about bonuses. Getting a little uneasy.

Quiet! All of you. You're going to negatively impact our record PPP!

And for the MWE associates on this board, you should have received the firm memo by now. I'm pasting it below for your reference:

"Remove trousers, grab ankles, and prepare to receive your annual bonus."

Why does JD DC think they can get away with this?

Quiet! All of you. You're going to negatively impact our record PPP!

And for the MWE associates on this board, you should have received the firm memo by now. I'm pasting it below for your reference:

"Remove trousers, grab ankles, and prepare to receive your annual bonus."

2:39 is right - 2:33 has it backwards, the NYC bonuses were "market", the other offices were a (somewhat sizable) step below the NYC "market".....

However, a few things have changed - first, salaries are now the same in all offices, and second, 2100 hrs has been announced for next year, which will inevitably make the pool of eligible smaller next year. I have no clue how this will play into this years bonuses. My predicition is market regular bonuses and no special.

The partners are too busy at the moment deciding how to pay each other to worry about the associates. No news until late January.

Quiet! All of you. You're going to negatively impact our record PPP!

And for the MWE associates on this board, you should have received the firm memo by now. I'm pasting it below for your reference:

"Remove trousers, grab ankles, and prepare to receive your annual bonus."

Why does JD DC think they can get away with this?

I pity the fool that gets low-balled on his bonus!

FIRST!!!! God I'm awesome.

I'm surprised that reputable firms can get away with giving $0-5,000 bonuses. I thought Thelen was the only firm that did that...but looks like they are in bad company.

Mmm...Special K.

Since when is MWE "reputable" ?

It's normal for firms to give bonuses in the form of Starbucks gift cards, right?

right?

2:53, JD DC gets away with it because it has so much prestige that associates can actually use that prestige to pay down student loans and buy houses. There's no need for cash compensation.

FLAVIA's post is hilarious, considering I'm at CWT and several of us in one department were told that drinking a shitload of free Flavia was the closest we'd come to a bonus.

Bingham to intravenous FLAVIA!!!!

DLA will be in trouble if bonuses aren't raised from last year.

I don't get it. Why/how does JD DC do this? Doesn't anyone there read ATL?

Bingham to "Coffee Meetings"!!!

2:25 --

"YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO A TTT FIRM."

I know! I know! Why oh why oh why didn't I accept Kirkland's offer?!?!?!?

here's slightly off topic question - how exactly are partners paid? Do they still get paid bi-weekly/bi-monthly, and then get a big check (for equity partners) in sharing the profits once a year?

And if so, how much do they get paid? Always wondered...

any more bonus info re: Jones Day (NY)? did Everyone who billed 2000 get regular + special? or were there other factors involved?

How much can you get for a used flavia machine on ebay, anyhow?

I WORK, AT WACHTEL. YOU, ARE ALL PATHETIC AND, BENEATH ME. MY BONUS IS BIGGER, THAN YOURS!

2:25 --

"YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO A TTT FIRM."

I know! I know! Why oh why oh why didn't I accept Kirkland's offer?!?!?!?

I WORK, AT WACHTEL. YOU, ARE ALL PATHETIC AND, BENEATH ME. MY BONUS IS BIGGER, THAN YOURS!

When I was deciding between DLA and another another, I was told that DLA is 20,000 base if you hit 2000, and then discretionary above that.

Granted, no Cravath, but its no MWE either.

3:08, we don't even have Flavias here at CWT, you guys (I'm guessing CM or GF) are really getting the shaft....

Arnold & Porter is paying below market bonus solely tied to hours (no merit consideration).

But they haven't adjusted it for a few years.

Seems like a major divide in bonuses between JD NY and DC. Any word from the other offices (e.g., Chicago, Bay Area, L.A.)?

3:28 --

OK, so what's your bonus this year then? Was what you were told correct?

any more bonus info re: Jones Day (NY)? did Everyone who billed 2000 get regular + special? or were there other factors involved?

Chloe,
This is Jack. I don't have a lot of time. Post the bonus schematics now. Use a satcomm overlay filter to get them if you have to.

I have to think MWE is a hoax just like the OMM flap. Not paying special bonuses in Boston is to be expected, but essentially no bonus at all? MWE can't be doing that poorly.

Curious as to what people think of these bonuses at Sidley for non-New York associates:

class of '05 billing 2100 received $25K
class of '01 billing 2200 received $50K
class of '00 billing 2400 received $50K

Chloe,
This is Jack. I don't have a lot of time. Post the bonus schematics now. Use a satcomm overlay filter to get them if you have to.

Best reference I've seen yet.

Jack,

But division said this information was "confidential" and should be "kept within CTU." You may have to kill all of them.

OUCH! Sidley screwed its associates.

3:48,

i generally think that those bonuses are pretty lousy, especially for a place like sidley. remember though, that sidley trys to set the market low with the expectation that others will fall in line (remember 145K), but kirkland eventually steps up (like to 160K).

Yes. DLA is guaranteed 20k if you hit 2000 (as a first year) and discretionary above that.

Is Ropes the only Boston firm that matched?

can anyone else confirm those Sidley numbers?

what does Bingham pay in NYC thats below market? Just not special bonus, or lower than the non-special bonus?

lets say market in NY is 35K for first years - what does Bingham pay a NY first year associate who made hours.

There does appear to be a severe drop in compensation from Jones Day's NY office to its Washington office. This may be attributable to the fact that the NY office operates in a very transparent and uniform market, where failure to "match" will send associates packing.
Washington is less so, as bonuses paid by Washington firms vary widely and information about exact amounts, conditions, etc. is more difficult to obtain. This allows Jones Day Washington to pay no bonuses and feel like it is still ok by the market. People who don't like it can (and do) leave. Whether it will affect recruiting is an open question, but I have to think it will, especially in this day and age of ATL.

pryor cashman bonuses are gonna rock this year.. for once

So if you're a class of '00 and bill less than 2400 hours, you get no bonus? Que?

4:08 - Bingham paid market bonuses in NYC in 2006. 2007 has not been announced. Bonuses outside of NYC were at about 80%-85% of the NYC bonuses.

3.48-

The class of '00 got hosed. Dumbass. Note to self: Don't bill more than 2200 hours.

On that note, why the hell are the law firm bonus structures inverted, such that they do NOT incentivize longer hours???? For increasing hours, you should pay an increasing amount, thus incentivizing insane hours. As for me. I'll cruise along to 1800, f*ck the bonus, have a life, and still pick up the $160k.

2:49, I don't have it backwards. There are multiple markets; NYC doesn't set a national market even if some national firms pay the same bonus across offices.

4:08, Bingham's policy is to always match market.

Call me crazy, but I don't disagree with a discretionary bonus system: Those that work harder, and produce higher quality work, deserve higher compensation. Otherwise, you've got some people at the office all the time and others freeloading off their sweat.

What I do disagree with is giving bonuses dependent on market. Billing 2500 hurts just as badly if you're living in Los Angeles or New York City. So why do the New Yorkers get more? If the firm wants to pay a COL adjustment, fine, but that should apply equally to all cities (ahem! San Francisco).

And yes, associates are paid a lot. And I feel very lucky and glad for this. But I am a little tired of hearing others gripe about how much more we are paid than attorneys back-in-the-day: The cost of law school tuition has far outpaced the rise of associate salaries, and the prospect of partnership is far lower than it was even 10 years ago.

Chloe-

don't give me any crap, and get that weird, squished-up i'm-kind-of-constipated look off your face.

"I don't get it. Why/how does JD DC do this? Doesn't anyone there read ATL?"

I just did. This is a crummy realization.

Jack B -- Will 24 be any good next season? And when will you hook up with Chloe?

To 4:06 -
Ropes did not match. I've heard that some associates did not get the special bonus (or only a fraction of it) if they did not hit the billable hours target.

To 4:36 --

I heard the billable hours target was only 1900.

another JD DC --

Kind of knocks the wind of out ya, doesn't it. Next, somebody is going to tell me that Santa isn't real.

I thought DLA paid what was market in NYC prior to the Cravath special bonus was implemented - that is, 35k for first years etc.

Isn't the 20k bonus mentioned above for their non-NYC offices?

Are Sidley 2000s hosed because those associates are not making partner and those specific people are being pushed out?

Indeed, DLA NY last year paid market for hitting 2000, and well over market at higher billing levels. Whatever those figures above are might be for non-NY offices.

2:33/4:22 (aka Bingham Ass) First of all, nice (and apt) name. Secondly, I didn't disagree with you the first time, I said that NYC was at NYC market and the other offices were below that. But your whole "multiple markets" argument is a little bogus - sounds like some nonsense-speak to me. Everyone who has ever paid attention to the bonus information on this website knows that when people say "market" they are talking about NYC market. Outside of NYC it varies - some match the NYC numbers, some don't, but there are no other discernable "markets" for bonuses at this point, especially for a national firm. Its too nebulous to say that a firm pays "market, but not NYC market" - don't kid yourself. That doesn't mean anything, DB.

MWE was silent on bonuses today...

To all of you JDs who didnt know their bonus structure (and by that I mean "no bonus" outside of NYC) going in-do your homework and stop complaining. It is well known that JD genearlly does not pay bonuses outside of NYC, yet people keep going there - lots and lots of people. There must be something . . . .

It doesn't sound like Sidley is hosing anyone. From what I hear their "policy" (read: message) is pretty clear: at 2000 hrs you get what seems to be more or less a market bonus, and they'll consider giving you more for "extraordinary" efforts. Do they have to spell it out for you in giant letters?? They are telling you to bill 2000. And nothing more.

Any sucker who bills way over 2000 in the hope that they'll get a little extra $ has no right to complain if the firm's discretionary system didn't pan out for them. Now if you were forced to bill that much, and got the same bonus, I'll admit that sucks. But otherwise, don't complain when you can't even play a simple game that your firm has told you how to win.

Lat,

Can you put up some kind of chart that depicts total compensation by years for all the firms in the 1.7/1.8M PPP club (or pick your cut off, maybe it's a little lower) so that 2Ls and 3Ls can see what their fortunes would be like at the best shops going forward?

After all, it's pretty clear that the bonus patterns we're seeing here represent market segmentation. Sure, when the next round of raises hits the disparities will be even starker. But it's already possible to identify the real big dogs and call out the smaller players.

Thanks.

Yours truly,l

Aunt Jerimiah

2:49 - you're the douche bag. There can be multiple markets. You can call one "market" and the other "NYC market," each having their own meaning. So a firm can very well pay "market," if this market is defined as anything less than what NY is paying, whatever that may be, depending on any other submarkets that may exist and the NYC market, which is characterized by the numbers we know and love.

So get over yourself, or at least remove that stick up your butt.

5:11 -

Fully agree. If you go to JD DC and didn't know they don't pay bonuses outside of NYC, its your own fault.

If it is that big of an issue, transfer to the NY office, work a year and bill your hours, and you can get regular + special.

In fact, they pay some stars above market salaries in NY.

For anyone who thinks the Vault rankings are still valid, how prestigious do some of the firms discussed here (MoFo, Jones Day, McDermott) look in comparison to some of the firms ranked below them, that are paying market bonuses?

Dear 2:49/5:01. First, thank you for pointing out to me my own "Bingham Ass" joke, but I got it when I wrote it. Second, just because people who say "market" on ATL mean NYC market doesn't mean that, in the real world of real lawyers, there aren't multiple markets.

5:26 --

I believe the problem at JD DC is not so much that you will not receive a bonus (which everybody knows) but the notion fed to some potential incomers that compensation will "even out" because JD does not do lock-step comp and you can therefore end up being paid "above market." This may be the case for some, but does not appear to be the case generally.

Thanks Bingham Ass for the explanation. So tell me, oh wise Ass, what exactly is the "m