By definition, if you are lateralling from Biglaw A to Biglaw B, it is impossible to avoid the "same s***, different office" problem. Biglaw is more or less always the "same s***." I have lateralled in Biglaw twice, for personal reasons (moving geographies), and it is all more or less the same garbage.

Lateral moves make no sense. If you're not happy at Firm X, why would you be happy at Firm Y?

You probably just aren't suited to law firm life.

If you are leaving NYC, the right time to move is after you cash your year-end bonus check.

Before you lateral, you should see if what you don't like about your current situation is fixable.

E.g., maybe you just don't like working with a particular partner. You may be able to work less with that partner, if you ask (and phrase it as "I'd love to get the chance to work with more great people at this firm").

Many associates just suck up whatever crap is tossed their way. Remember: the squeaky wheel gets oiled.

I was totally studying this all night, brah. The answer is don't go to law school in the first place.

Guys at my high school used to lateral from one law firm to another all the time, but only if they were moving to a different city, changing practice groups or trading up for a more prestigious law firm. Otherwise, what's the point? It was no big deal.

you have to know why you're lateraling. if you're just unhappy at your current firm, moving to another biglaw firm will do little to solve your problems. there needs to be a real reason for the move; i.e. a more specialized practice group, a new opportunity in an emerging group, a big difference in salary/bonus/billable requirements, a better exit opportunity to go in-house/gov't/boutique, etc.

the right time to move is the moment you realize you don't see yourself at your current firm for the long haul.

Lateraling away from a racist firm that retaliates against complainers—good enough reason, or are all firms like this?

How feasible is it to trade up for a more prestigious firm? How do you find an opportunity to do so? Start listening when headhunters call?

You may need to change firms if you want to change practice areas (e.g., from structured finance to tax or bankruptcy).

Guys at my high school used to trade one identical paycheck for another, just to feed their egos. They were criticized by ambivalent onlookers. It was no big deal.

When is the best time to move from a top-tier firm where you're making market salary to a smaller firm where partnerships chances are better? Is it better to lateral as a midlevel, or to hold out at the big firm 6-7 years in hopes of coming on board as a partner/of counsel in the smaller firm?

Why do I have a feeling that the requests for threads about lateraling have all come from Lateral Link?

Lateralling makes great sense if you on't like the personalities at your current firm. Just make sure the new firm has personalities you do like, and that you'll be working with those personalities. Easier said than done.

Even if the problem is you, sometimes you just need a change to make things better.

Associates are fungible, but so are firms, for the most part. Find one with people you like.

12:51 - get a clue. Let me guess - you are in law school?

I have lateraled twice. First was to escape some truly miserable people in my practice group. Second time was almost entirely for better compensation/bonus structure, but the place has a top shelf practice and really good people to boot. My moves couldn't have worked out better.

My only real advice on looking at places to lateral is just to ask alot of questions and ultimately trust your gut - don't make the move unless you have a good feel for where you are going.

The other thing I would say is that don't suffer at a firm just because you don't think the timing is right for your resume or whatever. If your situation truly sucks, the worst thing you could do is sit there and suffer because you think you have to wait 3 or 4 years before you are entitled to make a lateral move.

I'm planning on lateraling in a little over a year. We're going to leave SF to move to a different geographical location with lower hours expectations/norms for a slight paycut (which amounts to a huge pay raise (for less work) given the COL difference), and a surer shot at partnership. In terms of timing, we would ideally (my wife and I are both biglaw attys) have the moving van outside to pick us up the moment we get our bonus checks in hand. I would only lateral within the city for more money or to go to a lifestyle firm (if such things actually existed here).

Definetely not a good idea to lateral before bonus checks are cashed. Like clockwork, during the middle of February is when most lateral moves take place.

Are there opportunities to lateral in the first 2 years? I like my NY firm, but am already done with NY as a city, and want to move to DC. I do mostly finance and some corporate work, so I'm concerned there aren't that many openings in DC, esp. in the first two years.

If you are thinking of lateraling way after the bonuses are paid (June- September) is it market to ask for a full year bonus with your new employer? Thoughts?

I'm an HYSer in Boston at one the top (non-matching) firms. If bonuses do not compete with NYC numbers, I will lateral to one of the satellite NYC-firm offices (e.g., Proskauer or Skadden) or go in-house.

If I go to another firm, I do not expect any change in in working conditions, but I do expect to waste significantly less time reading the rumor mill to see if my back woods (i.e., Boston) law firm has the balls to get in the compensation game for associates who are cranking out 2200 to 2300 billables.

The sweet spot for laterals is 3-5th years, both in terms of market demand and for resume reasons. It's possible earlier or later, but a move before two years looks a bit hinky on the resume, and a move in the 6th or 7th year makes it looks like you knew you were gonna get passed over. Also, if you come over as a 6th or 7th year, likely you are going to be delayed in consideration for partner, though of course that depends on the firm.

I lateralled for better compensation and better practice groups. It was nerve-wracking at first, but having settled in at Shop B, I am very happy. Never looked back. I work harder now, but the work is better.

What if the only reason you want to change firms is that your firm doesn't pay market bonuses? Is it worth it? Can you tell the potential new firms that you're looking for more money or do you have to make up some lie about wanting to work with new people? How many years after joining a firm should you wait to lateral?

As for all the comments about how to break into biglaw, its easy - get some good experience at a respectable place and when they are looking for someone with your experience, go interview and sell your experience. Its a common misconception by junior associates that Biglaw only hires laterals with a biglaw pedigree.

Bad idea to lateral after 1 year?

SIGNING BONUS THREAD!!!

I'm giving notice first week of Jan (to get bonus), going from biglaw in CA to very small firm.

First, I'd never leave my present firm for another big firm. I'm not unhappy here, and the things I'm leaving are endemic to biglaw life.

But there are a lot of reasons to change:

1. Getting my life back. Going from 2100 (and being told I have to pick it up) down to 1600-1800 is a significant, meaningful change. It means seeing friends and family and dates any time, without having to ration the one or two nights off a week between the three while also having some quiet solo time. It also means not stressing about vacations.

2. Real work: I went to law school to be a lawyer, not a minion who writes the first draft of everything. Sure, eventually you get responsibility in big law, but that's when you're a 6th or 7th year, and even then, you have a partner above you paying attention the whole time. With this, I'll be taking depos, trying cases, and making calls sooner rather than later. Sure, it's less-high-profile, but at the end of the day, doc review and brief writing is the same whether it's sexy media cases or cases about widgets.

3. Money is a false issue. Okay, I'm single, no kids, etc., so it's not a concern. My salary's dropping from 185+bonus to 150+10-20 bonus. But if you let biglaw salary seduce you, there's always just a little more money next year, and a little more the year after that. Plus, at smallaw you make partner sooner. Sure, you make less (500k v. 1m) but I'd rather work less hard and actually enjoy it.

You have to get over the stupidity that you get in law school of "the best job you can ever have is biglaw" and the feeling that by quitting you're somehow flunking out, but once you do, it's great.

And I've never heard of anyone who left biglaw--be it to change completely or to lateral down--that has ever regretted it.

If you go to a good school (Hofstra) then there is no need to transfer

As for not lateralling for bonus reasons - some firms will indeed (if they want you enough) pay for your bonus at the new place to entice you to move faster. It's happened before.

Here's a semi-relevant question: If I'm a COA clerk and can either join a V5 firm or a V65-70 firm, which should I take assuming that I really like the people at the latter firm? To be more precise, how big of a deal is the difference in prestige if you've got a legit COA clerkship under your belt?

I've been trying for six months to lateral from New York BigLaw to LA NotBigLaw. The process can suck my big, black you-know-what. I'm gettin' no love from the LA firms despite stellar credentials, excellent reviews at my current firm (where I have been since I graduated law school four years ago), and the fact that I have already passed the California bar. What gives? Are LA firms anti-NY?

1:33 - not at all, but just be careful that you have your reasons for leaving well rehearsed and that you are likely to stay at the place you are going for a much longer period. It would start to look much worse if you are shopping for firm #3 inside of 2 yrs

I recently lateralled from one CA biglaw office to another (my old firm's bonus wasn't worth sticking around for, and a good opportunity came up). Here's what I got out of the process (I am a midlevel associate):

1. Others are right, the work doesn't change much. Find a group of people you think you can work with, that's your best bet. As others have stated, if it's just one partner you can't stand, don't lateral, work for another partner.

2. I changed to move from a general lit practice to a more specialized practice. Moving from one biglaw practice to the same practice at another firm doesn't make sense unless there is a personality mis-fit or more money involved -- the work is pretty much the same.

3. You can lateral at any time (well, up until partnership time, that is!). However, if you want to move "up" the prestige ladder, you either need to have had the credentials to get into the "higher" firm in the first place, or have experience (or a book of business) that makes up for deficient credentials. For some firms, the experience or book can NEVER make up for the lack of credentials. But generally speaking, the more experience you have, the greater the credential gap can be.

4. I agree that there is no reason to stick it out in a place you hate waiting for the "right time." The only caveat to this is if there is a major filing or trial or something coming up that you are an integral part of (don't laugh, it happens sometimes!) you may want to time your move so as to not leave your firm or group in a bad position -- you never know who you are going to be working with in the future.

That's my experience, your experience may vary. I went from a general lit, top AMLAW 200 or bottom AMLAW 100 firm to a specialized lit group in an AMLAW 30 or thereabouts firm. My law school credentials almost certainly would not have gotten me into this firm right out of school (although they weren't THAT far out), it was my experience at the previous firm that pretty much did the trick.

Also, I liked my other firm, I just didn't think I would be able to get the specialized work and training that I wanted to do -- that was the reason for my lateral move.

Is the myth that literally tons and tons of openings for very junior associates post-boni true? Ie 1:33, typically are there many associates who leave after year 1 who can succeed. Also don't forget the being-laid-off SF 1st years.

To: Biglaw to Smalllaw @ 1:37 :

I never thought 'small' firms that pay '150 + 10-20 bonus' and require '1600-1800' billables existed? (Esp. with 500k PPP.)

Between you, me and the lamp-post, please enlighten this BigLaw grunt because such firms sure sound appealing. Midwest perhaps?

Lateraling from California "biglaw" firms that pay way smaller bonuses to NY firms makes sense.

1:33 here - I am on pace to bill 2300 in a practice group where people normally bill about 2000 in biglaw. I hate it. I have other reasons to lateral (or at least to offer as an explanation), but this is the main one (yes, i know not to expose this one).

Assuming you're mobile and assuming you work at a large enough firm, you may want to check out the possibility of changing office locations. You may like your practice area, but hate the people in your office - sort of a compromise approach. We've had some people take that route in the last couple of years.

COA clerk --

Go with Vault 5. If it ain't too fun (I'm at a Vault 10, and it isn't a bowl of laughs here) in 1.5 years or so, you can hand-pick your choice of Vault bottom-50 firms.

The people I know that lateral'd did so when they had a "firm client" in their pocket. Basically, the firm says that the client was there before you and/or whatever it takes such that you get no credit (in terms of salary or bonus) for keeping that client happy...so you walk to another firm and say, "If you hire me, I think I can bring [enter Fortune 500 company here] with me" and then ask for either partnership or a big raise in exchange. Also, the people that went were able to take whatever sized practice group had served that client, meaning taking one of more lawyers and a paralegal and secretary, if they wanted.

Make sure your reasons for moving actually fit with the firm to which you hope to move. For example, telling a 1200+ person firm that you want to lateral there because you think all the cases are staffed with only 3 people is just stupid. And yet, I've interviewed two lateral candidates who said that.

Dear Swallow at 1:37:

You sound hot. Tell me more about seeing your "dates" any time. What does this entail? I see you are single with no kids, perfect.

p.s. Is the name accurate? Do you?

How hard is to lateral out to a big firm in a big city (say Chicago) from a smaller firm (70 lawyers) in a place such as Kansas City, when the work you are doing in KC is high-level securities work? How many years should you wait before making such a change?

I would suggest people look for a firm like CWT, where they have a reputation for generousity, associate development and genuinely good people in the partner ranks. Plus great art on the walls and no Yale graduates.

2:00-not swallow but SMALLLAW--damn are you dumb or blind.

1:33/1:49 - Yeah, I wouldn't talk about that one too much, what else you got?

2:02, most high-level securities work is done in places like Tacoma and Mobile, so I'm going to call shenanigans on your post.

how soon is too soon? I'm a 3L, accepted an offer w a big NYC firm but my significant other just got a position in another city (that my firm doesn't have offices in) for the next few yrs. If I'm going to make the move, when should I actually do it and when should I start looking for positions?

1:51, that makes no sense. If your end-goal is happy at a "Vault bottom-50 firm" anyway, what is the point of being miserable at a "V5" firm for a year and a half? The only reason to go to a super-prestigious firm is if you want to lateral into a prestigious government position and the firm has connections. If your end-goal is just more law firm, there's absolutely no reason to go somewhere that will work you harder for the same pay for a couple years at the top.

I lateraled after a year from a midsized firm to a BigLaw firm because I'm in a niche practice, and the experience my current firm offers in this area is simply peerless.

I chose my first firm because the people were great and it was a real "lifestyle" firm where I could see myself staying indefinitely; but the work just wasn't helping develop as an attorney. I could see that for the good of my career I was going to have to go with a more challenging practice.

2:02 - KC has securities work? Or you mean you moonlight as a security guard?

Well high level securities work by my definition is preparing an SB-2 (registration statement) for a $400,000,000 offering, which I am currently doing. How easy or difficult would it be for me to move to a big firm in Chicago? I graduated from a top 25 midwest law school with above-average grades, and was on law review...

2:04(3),

Do you and your significant other have kids? If not, after 2 years as a single attorney in NYC, she probably won't be your significant other anymore.

2:04 - your significant other will likely be banging someone else in the other city within 2-3 months. Either go there now, or just forget about it. I hear NYC associates just hook up with each other anyway, so that's sort of like a 2 for 1 right? Any NYC associates care to comment?

2:00 is an idiot.

2:10(1) - good post.

2:10(2) - ditto

2:03 - No, it's Swallow. Smallaw, doesn't make any sense.

p.s. Please locate a sense of humor pronto. And a life.

And for once, just once, i thought we were not going to have those idiotic comments...here we go again with the socially inept "elites" trying to ruin a substantive post.

To 3L headed to NYC firm

If your sig other is the one, bail out early before you start. Just tell them that you got engaged or some shit like that and would it be really terrible to renege now. I doubt it will be because business is slowing down for everyone. Well, the above is assuming you can get a job in the other city.

I would suggest people look for a firm like CWT, where they have a reputation for generousity, associate development and genuinely good people in the partner ranks. Plus great art on the walls and no Yale graduates.

Posted by: Anonymous | December 5, 2007 02:03 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Here's a quesiton. I know what firm I want to go to. The other firm does the work I want to do in the city I want to do it in. Is it "okay" to just send my resume to their hiring partner? To their PR? Must I use a head hunter? I have a good resume and suspect they would at least interview me. (Good school, good clerkship, etc.) Advice?

Lat,

Can we get a thread on timing of telling your current firm if you know you are leaving for a different place well before you actually intend on walking out the door? For instance, if you know now that you will be taking another job (not another firm job) more than a year from now, when should you tell your firm?

1:37-

Confirm that giving notice in January won't disqualify you from getting your bonus. You may have to remain employed until the distribution of the bonus in order to collect it.

I just got a job in the mailroom of my dream firm. I've also been sneaking into an empty office upstairs and pretending to be a lateral hire attorney. Because of my mailroom access, I have been able to send out memos to the associates and partners confirming that I was hired, and thus far nobody has figured out my double life. I haven't told anyone, not even my wacky mailroom friend. Unfortunately, my uncle is the managing partner of the firm, and his wife - my aunt! - is sexually interested in me. I've also started dating a partner at the firm, who's a real go-getter, but uptight. Do you think I'll have a problem making a lateral move to another firm?

Let me translate this post.

Lat: Hi guys! I can't generate any content today, so please do it for me!

Dear 1:46--

The place does exist. In Los Angeles. Beverly Hills, to be exact. Cos of some random timing issues I worked there before biglaw (though I'd summered at the biglaw firm--basically I asked post law school to switch offices and that took some time to sort out), so I know them, they know me. They recently hit me up, I said give me some numbers, thinking there was simply no way the money would even be close to what I'm making now as a rising 4th year. We had dinner, they gave a number, I fell off my chair. Good thing is that they have good clients, no slip and fall stuff, and have been around for like 25 years.

But I don't know--is there anyone else out there who works at a small firm (I'm talking 4 partners and 2 associates) who can talk numbers?

Dear 2:00

--You'll have to find out. Though you might be mildly inconvenienced by the fact I'm gay. But I do give a killer blowjob.

To those of you are considering lateraling from a big firm to a midsize or small firm because of the hours, would you rather have started out in the smaller firm to begin with in hindsight? Or was it worth it just to suck up the crappy hours for the bigger paycheck those first few years?

At 2:25

What kind of job are you talking about? A clerkship? What other job do you know that you will take in a year?

2:33(1)

I'm surprised you were steady enough to write that post.

2:08 and 2:10 win for best comment of the day!

I am a very attractive BIGLAW associate but after 2 years of being closeted in document review/production I feel I have lost touch with the dating scene. Law school (top 5) was "fun-filled" time, and I am glad it was, because it has been a dry spell. I have had my fill (literally) of partners and clients--I think my partners and clients are "satisfied" or quite pleased with me. But I want to use someone for my own means... Where can a single lawyer get out, meet professional guys and let down her hair?

My legal assitant suggests slumming it up in hoboken -- with a hot construction worker. yummy.

I am a very attractive BIGLAW associate but after 2 years of being closeted in document review/production I feel I have lost touch with the dating scene. Law school (top 5) was "fun-filled" time, and I am glad it was, because it has been a dry spell. I have had my fill (literally) of partners and clients--I think my partners and clients are "satisfied" or quite pleased with me. But I want to use someone for my own means... Where can a single lawyer get out, meet professional guys and let down hair?

My legal assitant suggests slumming it up in hoboken -- with a hot construction worker. yummy.

2:26--bonus checks go into our account on Dec 31. So no fear of that at all.

I once lateralled out of a sweet job in DC, but came back in four years.

whew -- til the last line of 2:37's post I was thinking that was a male associate down the hall.

Ms Swallow:

I can be of help.

I lateralled into my XBOX 360... hours are brutal, pay sucks... but quality of life is top notch!

Question: Is there any benefit to leaving one biglaw firm with mediocre litigation for another one which is more prestigious in that area, if you intend to go AUSA or something like that in the future? Or is it more important the kind of work you're doing, etc.

How easy/hard to do?

How advantageous is it for someone lateralling out to a different state to have already passed that state's bar? Could this tilt it in favor of such an applicant?

I don't understand why more BIGLAW associates don't kill themselves? That really makes a firm look bad and sends a very strong statement that you were unhappy.

"Suicide is man's way of saying to God (and Firm) "You can't fire me, I quit!"

2:33 - Are you Whitfield???

I am a recruiter. Shouldn't you be ignoring me by now?

With that said, I answer these questions on a daily basis.

1) Right time to move?

Don't move before you have 2 years under your belt, unless there is some specific circumstance. If you are just getting bored, stick it out until the Fall after your 2nd year (so now is the time for '05 grads). Also, don't move quicker than every two years on each subsequent move.

As for the time of year: September to March. People who move before bonuses can ask for the new firm to provide a signing bonus, or for those who value the move more than the extra money, they can get in well ahead of everyone else so there is less competition for a great job.

2. Why move?

Not all law firms are the same. Not all offices are the same. Not all practices within an office are the same. Just because a firm has a certain reputation, doesn't mean it is accurate for each case. The best way to find out what might be a good fit would be to talk to a recruiter who knows this stuff for a living.

"The people I know that lateral'd did so when they had a "firm client" in their pocket. Basically, the firm says that the client was there before you and/or whatever it takes such that you get no credit (in terms of salary or bonus) for keeping that client happy...so you walk to another firm and say, "If you hire me, I think I can bring [enter Fortune 500 company here] with me" and then ask for either partnership or a big raise in exchange."

*** Not always. When I lateraled into BigLaw, they needed someone with no book of business, to handle a bunch of work they already had.

_______

"And I've never heard of anyone who left biglaw--be it to change completely or to lateral down--that has ever regretted it."

*** Ditto. Including myself and a bunch of other people I know.

2:25: Don't tell your law firm until two weeks prior to your resignation. It just doesn't make any sense to do anything differently.

I concur with 2:33, we need a hook-up site solely for professional women to get their freak on!

I loved document review -- all those random contract attorneys I will never see again....the memories

How much notice do you give to your firm and when do you give it if you are sure that you will be leaving soon, but are waiting for your bonus to be paid? Do you give notice the day you get your bonus? Do you wait a few days? What's the play?

2:45 says: "I am a recruiter . . . Not all law firms are the same. Not all offices are the same. Not all practices within an office are the same. Just because a firm has a certain reputation, doesn't mean it is accurate for each case. The best way to find out what might be a good fit would be to talk to a recruiter who knows this stuff for a living."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, you get paid to say those things.

I made a BigLaw lateral move that falls under "should have known better," because someone convinced me that this firm "wasn't like all the others." Bullshit. It was worse.

You never cease to amaze me.

202 Responding:

You're an idiot and a liar. A $400M registration isn't eligible for SB-1 or SB-2. Check out rule 405 of the 33 Act, moron.

I work for the government. I have plenty of litigation experience, but I have no experience doing "general commercial litigation" or whatever it is that biglaw litigators do. I want to go to biglaw for the money. Will my inexperience with general commercial litigation hurt my chances?

2:57 - good job screening that candidate. I don't think he'll be leaving KC anytime soon!

to I swallow 2:38:

3 easy steps:

1) Go out to a bar with ONE girlfriend (I assume you are a girl) of yours.

2) Scan the bar, and go talk to the hottest guy you think you can take home (remember, guys will screw most everything that walks...except if you are fat, in which case, better hit on a fat man of lose some weight fast).

3) Take said guy home, use protection, and volia, enjoy!

Girls who ask questions like these crack me up. ANY girl (except fat ones) has a 1,000,000 % better chance of hooking up on any given night with a guy, than a guy in the same situation. I live in Chicago, and with the exeption of a few select places, bars/clubs are filled with 80% guys, all hitting on the same dumb blondes. One more thing, join bar organizations or serve in boards of "charitable" organizations. Increase your social network. Why do all the work if you can have people looking for you and trying to hook you up.

If you want to lateral because your firm's bonus structure screws people that bill a huge number of hours compared to everyone else, the trick is to find a firm that has a variable bonus based on the number of hours you bill. My firm pays a set dollar per hour that you bill over the minimum, with no limit. That means if you bill 2,500 hours when everyone else is billing 2,100 you get a crapload more money than them in your bonus.

2:55 -- I only get paid to make a good match on both sides. I make the introduction for a good fit. Beyond that, it is the lawyer's responsibility to make the determination if it is the same #$(& in a different office. My point was that I can introduce you to different offices without the crap of where you are now. I am paid to open your eyes not feed you more B.S...

2:55 -- I only get paid to make a good match on both sides. I make the introduction for a good fit. Beyond that, it is the lawyer's responsibility to make the determination if it is the same #$(& in a different office. My point was that I can introduce you to different offices without the crap of where you are now. I am paid to open your eyes, not feed you more B.S...

How easy is it to move/lateral from one Biglaw office to another office within the same firm? I took a position at a firm paying parket and am living in a very expensive city (2nd highest COL). I would love to move to another office where the COL is half of what it is here. Pay is the same accross the board so that is not a factor.

I know it looks bad to lateral in the first year or two, but how about when you are just moving between offices of the same firm. Is there a general rule?

Anyone else thinking about lateral-ing away from a biglaw firm in NYC that just merged?

I would be glad to talk about lateral opportunities with any of you. Email me and we can meet at Jason's Deli.

Oh one more thing. I am, of course, a guy.

If you are as hot as you say you are, you shoudl have ZERO problems hooking up. Now, if you are seeking a relationship, then things are a bit different.

Anybody have experience lateraling after their first year? I can't imagine moving from one biglaw to another as a 2nd year would be easy.

Thank you 3:10 -- bar scene is so college. I like the social networking idea -- but wouldn't a real swinger club be a better idea -- I am not really that big a freak, but I am going crazy! I see guys on the subway, but they are ALWAYS too shy to talk to me. C'mon guys BUST A MOVE!

"Crotchless in Midtown" -- we should party together!

3:22: I know people who have done it. Sometimes, a place just really sucks for you. There's no reason to stick it out. The worst thing that happens is that you look for a job and nothing pans out.

2:35(2)

Does it matter what kind of job it is?

As for just giving two weeks, what if I actually really like the firm and partners I am working for and don't want to leave them in the lurch staffing-wise? I certainly am not under any illusions that I am a crucial, irreplaceable factor to their continued success, but my firm does not staff most cases very heavily, so it would be very hard for someone else on the team to just absorb my share of the work.

Can a V5, 4th year, corporate attorney lateral in as a 4th year V50 litigator?

3:25: If you really trust these people, what's the harm in giving extra notice? You could always go to a trusted member of that team and ask for advice, too. In any other situation, though, I'd give no more than the requisite amount of time.

Read the rule, retard - anyone can do an SB-2, for as much money as they want, so long as their revenues are less than $25 million and don't already have a public float in excess of $25 mill...I hope for your sake you are not doing any SB-2, b/c you don't know jack...

3:24 - do you know how ample opportunities for biglaw 2nd years are? Sometimes places just don't work out. But is another firm willing to take a chance on a 2nd year when theres more in the pipeline (cheaper labor and also more valuable/experienced labor)? I'm debating fleeing, but just not sure how good the market is for a 2nd year.

3:28: Just respond to some of those recruiter calls you've been getting. I know at least five people who lateralled their second year - some to higher-ranked places, some to lower-ranked places. The only way for you to find it out is to start asking around.

3:22 - I did and never looked back. wound up at a bigger v100 firm. I agree with 3:24

3:25, no. No one wants to pay someone who's effectively a first year a fourth-year salary.

3:22 - Yes, you can lateral if you are more junior. I placed an attorney who summered at a firm, but by the time she joined, the group she was slated to work for left. She was stuck doing work from the main office. She stayed until July of the following year (~9 months out of law school).

3:25B - It would be very unlikely unless you have had SOME litigation experience previously. Perhaps taking a one year step back would be a somewhat easier sell for a V50 firm at that level, but still would be tough.

It would be more probable to do that type of move much earlier in your career.

Also, to answer 3:28, when I did it (at about 18 mos.) I was able to sell my experience and show that I would be more than just a glorified 1st yr. So it help if you can show that you know enough about what you are doing.

I repost my question - pls answer...

How hard is to lateral out to a big firm in a big city (say Chicago) from a smaller firm (70 lawyers) in a place such as Kansas City, when the work you are doing in KC is high-level securities work? How many years should you wait before trying to make such a change?

which firms are the crusiest in NYC? for anonymous gay bathroom sex, I hear skadden is solid.

it helps relieve the work stress if you ask me.

Thanks 3:34 (both). I figure it can't hurt to look around. I'm in corporate, very busy but rumblings about a potential meltdown has gotten some here worried. Plus I'd have to compete with those unlucky SFers who're being laid off - that's awful!

I repost my question - pls answer...

How hard is to lateral out to a big firm in a big city (say Chicago) from a smaller firm (70 lawyers) in a place such as Kansas City, when the work you are doing in KC is high-level securities work? How many years should you wait before trying to make such a change?

3:38, there's a big difference from lateraling from corporate to lit after 18 months and requesting a 2nd year litigator's salary and attempting to do the same thing as a 4th year. While the 4th year can make a persuasive case that s/he's more than a glorified 1st year, s/he absolutely cannot make a persuasive case that s/he's going to operate on a 4th-year level. If said 4th year is willing to take a knock-down to the 2nd year level, that's the only shot.

Is turnover so high and the need for bodies (junior associates) so bad that they'll hire anyone with a year of good experience? Or are they just as inflexible with their grades criteria for junior associates? I snuck into biglaw with mediocre grades (thanks daddy!)

you lateral if you are about to get shit-canned and need a fresh start.

KC Securities:

It really depends on where you went to school, what your grades were, the relative prestige of your firm etc. If you did not attend a T40 school and have excellent grades, you probably won't get an interview. If you get an interview, you better ace it.

hahaha i am sooo out of the loop

someone tell me what this hilarious "Guys in my high school used to .... all the time. It was no big deal." is from what is it from

3:58 - I attended a midwest law school which is in the top 25 and got above-average grades, and was also on law review...

I think the 'guys in my high school' schtick originally had something to do with MBAs.

I'm a 3L at a T20 heading to NYC v50 after summering there. I did well enough my 1L year to get the job but since then my grades have slid to the median.

However, I realize that, all chances being even, I will lateral eventually.

People with experience and recruiters: Do grades actually matter? I know what the Autoadmit trolls would say, but I would appreciate some advice from people who actually know what they are talking about.

Thanks

I'm a 3L at a T20 heading to NYC v50 after summering there. I did well enough my 1L year to get the job but since then my grades have slid to the median.

However, I realize that, all chances being even, I will lateral eventually.

People with experience and recruiters: Do grades actually matter? I know what the Autoadmit trolls would say, but I would appreciate some advice from people who actually know what they are talking about.

Thanks

What year do you start out at a firm if you lateral from gov't or other agencies outside of biglaw? i.e. if you worked two years in gov't, do you get to start as a third year in biglaw?

I'm a 3L at a T20 heading to NYC v50 after summering there. I did well enough my 1L year to get the job but since then my grades have slid to the median.

However, I realize that, all chances being even, I will lateral eventually.

People with experience and recruiters: Do grades actually matter? I know what the Autoadmit trolls would say, but I would appreciate some advice from people who actually know what they are talking about.

Thanks

What year do you start out at a firm if you lateral from gov't or other agencies outside of biglaw? i.e. if you worked two years in gov't, do you get to start as a third year in biglaw?

It is easy to transfer in first year -- just say you don't like practice area and want to be in new practice area.

Cross training at 4th is impossible from transactional to litigation. Try and get litigation at current firm.

It is easy to transfer in first year -- just say you don't like practice area and want to be in new practice area.

Cross training at 4th is impossible from transactional to litigation. Try and get litigation at current firm.

It is easy to transfer in first year -- just say you don't like practice area and want to be in new practice area.

Cross training at 4th is impossible from transactional to litigation. Try and get litigation at current firm.

Notice is for sissies. Get your new job lined up. Then stop going to work... you can usually start collecting both pay checks. Eventually old firm will get pissed and fire you -- they you get severance...sweet gig. Don't worry about references, no one checks them...

Notice is for sissies. Get your new job lined up. Then stop going to work... you can usually start collecting both pay checks. Eventually old firm will get pissed and fire you -- they you get severance...sweet gig. Don't worry about references, no one checks them...

Lat should throw a party and invite everyone from his blog!

Lat should throw a party and invite everyone from his blog!

Lat should throw a party and invite everyone from his blog!

4:30: "Notice is for sissies. Get your new job lined up. Then stop going to work... you can usually start collecting both pay checks. Eventually old firm will get pissed and fire you -- they you get severance...sweet gig. Don't worry about references, no one checks them..."

*** That's not too far from the truth.

If you work at Cravath, you should be smart enough to know how to click a button just once.

The firm I left had a crappy policy that if you didn't give 4 weeks notice, they could keep your accrued vacation and sick time pay...so it was worth it to give that much notice for me.

3L going to NYC v50,

Yes, grades matter. For some firms, they always matter, and if your credentials aren't good enough, no amount of experience will ever make up for it. For other firms (perhaps most firms), experience can make up for credentials; the further your credentials are away from being the "norm" at the new firm, the better your experience needs to be. If your credentials are too far off of the mark, then you may have to wait until you are a partner with a book to lateral.

I am a midlevel associate, when I lateralled recently, every firm I interviewed with wanted my grades BEFORE they offered me an interview. I received interviews and offers from firms that I didn't have the credentials to get into striaght out of law school -- that's the experience closing the gap -- but I was questioned about my grades on several occassions.

Your grades follow you for a long time. The more experience you have, the less your grades will make or break you, as a general rule. If your credentials are bad enough, no amount of experience may be able to save you (you had better hope you have a book of business in that case!).

5:29: That SUCKS. Guess it's worth figuring that out ahead of time.

3:23 "but wouldn't a real swinger club be a better idea?"

--------
I wouldn't recommend an onsite swinger's club, unless you are interesting in hooking up with forty five year old secretaries from LI while their portly husbands watch. A better bet would be a loft party. There are also a couple of groups that regularly close down traditional dance clubs, and through an invite/screening process allow people in for what is just a more honest version of the bar scene.

If you have decent googling skills, I'm sure you can find links to a few decent Manhattan-based groups. Just be wary of Craigslist postings --there are some seriously sketchy parties advertised on there...(As a rule of thumb, stick to parties that have dress codes.)

Hope this helps--

I love the idea of a lat sponsored party. 200 men, all telling each other what lots of guys did at their high school, and how it was no big deal. Sounds awesome.

re: KC Query

If you check the Greedy Associates board on www.infirmation.com, this topic has already been discussed.

Honestly, send your resume around. You have the credentials and experience to get an offer.

I know of several firms especially in the Midwest (at least where I live) are looking for quality corporate associates. The trade off is that your compensation will be significantly less than what a first year in Chicago makes. And while KC is probably cheaper, the salary compression, horrible bonuses, and lack of partnership opportunities (as well as exit options) should be taken into consideration before you make a move.

5:31- have your colleagues experience similar requests as they have lateraled?

how bad would it have been if you had said, "Well I got the job I thought I wanted, so I just did enough to get by and not shame myself with Cs"?

Anyone have any other tips on swingers clubs?

Lat -- throw a Lateral Link sponsored Swingers Party for all of us repressed associates!!!

I am disappointed... I am going to ride the subway and find someone to abuse me

Yes, I AM a HeadHunter, and Yes, I AM ashamed. . .but I am here to help you, and, also, to enjoy your pain. . .it's like a double win. Let's see if we can drill down to the center of the issues:

1. No. Never ever ever leave before 2 years post law-school, even if you're as good as you think you are (you aren't, by the way, no matter what the guys in the bathroom tell you; guys'll say anything when you're, uh, "blowing the horn." Really)

2. Don't listen to (actually, uh, read and believe) anything that any lateral on this board tells you about WHY they did or did NOT get hired. They do not know. They will NEVER know. The hiring partner won't tell them. The MP won't tell them. The committee won't tell them. They won't, if ever, until THEY are the Hiring Partner, or a member of the Committee, or the MP. And by then, it won't matter anyway.

3. You should lateral if you think your chances with another firm are better than they are with your present firm. They might be. Maybe not. In any case, the best way to make yourself attractive is to be the best lawyer you can be in your area, and then somebody will come sniffing around. And they might just like the way you smell. Happens with dogs all the time. Lawyers aren't ALL that much worse than dogs, really. And, frankly, given the choice between a lawyer and my dawg, I usually pick a lawyer, assuming I see a shot record first. But that's just me.

4. To Headhunter or Not To HeadHunter? That is The Question. Sure, Skipper, and it's completely up to you. But consider this, Oh Doctor of Laws and all that is Juridical. . .while you've been immersing yourself in Case Law and Precedent, and Procedure, and Lawyering I, II, and III, and Clinical Law, Saints Preserve Us, and The Law of The Internet, and so on, your friendly neighborhood HeadHunter/Legal Recruiter/Soulsucking Sonofamonkey/(Your Insult Here)/Scumbag has been whispering sweet nothings, and, frankly, downright lies, into the ears of anybody who'll listen at ALL OF THE LAW FIRMS IN THE WORLD. And YOU have NOT.

If the recruiter is even a TINY bit good, and made even ONE SINGLE good hire recommendation EVER, s/he is going to be listened to, at least for a minute. . .so when a job opens up in, say, Structured Finance (I know, I know. . . I KILL myself!! No, seriously. . .), and the Powers That Be call the Recruiter That Is, guess whose candidates have an automatic advantage (even over the bathroom boyz over at Skadden, although probably not very much)? Can you do it? Can you guess? I'ma guess that you CAN guess. And guess what else, cats and kittens? Law Firms don't give even the slightest bit of a hoot if you can save them a few bucks on Recruiting Fees. You think those fees come out of somebody's bonus, for pete's ache? Oh, yes, you're right.

They'll save a few bucks on Nimrod Recruiting, and you can send in your own little special package, made with your own itty hands. That'll impress 'em. While you're at it, you could try to emulate your dog and find a dead bird and bring it to the MP, and put it in his lap, too. If you can generate saliva on the order of an English Mastiff, so much the better. Sit. Stay.

5. Finally, let's talk about references, and grades. Not only do we check them, not only do the firms check them, we check the hell out of them, and so do the firms. The quickest way to become, um, how I say?. . .ah. . .roadkill on the Lateral Expressway, is to blow these two topics off. Now, are they important? Eh. They could be. It depends. If you went to T2Law and blew it up, that's good. And if you aren't a churn and burn Associate at any firm, that's good too.

Don't be snarky about the grades. Know them. Have them available. At least know where you stood (by the way, don't say something stupid like "I can't remember, it's been [years] years!" Your unfriendly, evil Headhunter knows to the .001 what the super-extra-ultra-post-grad GPA was, and that was back in the days of the Big War. . . why I remember. . . .you get the point, right?)

6. For the record, and not for nothin', to quote our good friend JimBob, we saw a Senior Partner gig go headfirst down the toilet over references and grades. And an unfortunately timed comment like "You know, I've been doing this for a while. . . .I think I'm a little too experienced to be considered just another 'applicant.'" Sadly for the Senior Partner, the MP heard the comment, and HIS comment was "Well, when you open your OWN firm, you can call yourself whatever you want, but when you come to ME for a job, you're an APPLICANT until I hire you." Your HeadHunter's comment on THAT would be THIS. . .you can always go the solo route, and if you want to, that's just DANDY. But, working for somebody else has its own set of requirements. If you want to do it, then do it. And stop complaining. If you don't, don't. Do your own thing. But be clear about all the options, pick the least painful (psychologically), and be done with it.

Meanwhile, my assistant, Bubba, wants the address to that bathroom at Skadden. No, I have no idea why. . .his name is BUBBA; I've learned not to ask.

Evil HeadHunter-At Your Service.

Evil HeadHunter,

Please come back with more posts. Your disdain for the profession that provides you a living really excites me. You should really go to law school.

Dear Evil HeadHunter, where can I find your font of wisdom when the time comes to lateral?

Aren't all most headhunters burned-out lawyers?

Dear Anonymous:

Perhaps I oversold the disdain. I actually have great respect for the profession. As I believe I indicated, I really, REALLY love the profession.

What I'm not completely sold on is whiny, bitchy, snotty associates who think the world, and the law firm, owes them a living; complain constantly about their miserable lives, which, by the way, THEY chose by going to law school, and then, when you call them to talk about a job that they MIGHT actually be able to do without feeling like their soul is being crushed even more than it already IS, they're snotty to you, and act like they're doing you a favor, IF and WHEN they call your ass back.

Disdain for the profession? You MUST be high. I LOVE me some profession of law.

Disdain for wise-ass associates who know NOTHING about how law firms hire, staff, and plan, nor any idea that this particular evil headhunter talks almost exclusively with heads of firms every single day, and so might know a "smackerel" more than your typical 2-year associate about what goes on deep in the crevices of the biggest of the biglaws? Oh, yes, beyond measure.

Which is not to say that I think that you, Anonymous, you brave BRAVE soul, are only a 2-year Associate. Oh My, No!

To be that pusillanimous, you'd have to be FULLY embittered. . . seeing your life dripping away, in 2300-hour increments, for some time now. Or maybe just 2100-hour increments. But definitely dripping. Or maybe that sound is from the bathroom. . .I can't really tell.

By the way, who said I didn't go to law school. . .I DID say Evil HeadHunter. . .right?

Love and Sloppy, Dirty Kisses,

Evil HeadHunter-Bend Over; I'll Drive.

p.s. For the record, it's Partners that provide me a living. Associates provide me with amusement. . .and something to train my dog on. . . he's sick of Bubba, and since Bubba's knees gave out, he's too easy to catch.

Evil HeadHunter,

You are so wise. Hiding behind "Anonymous" is certainly not brave. So, down with them and power to you.

Lateral question: