lesson:

Don't go to TTT firms.

"I don't know of any AmLaw 100 firms that pay as little as Heller does."

Two words: Womble Carlyle

What, pray tell, is Skadden's culture?

3:44, I've never heard of that firm, so I'll just assume they really are in the AmLaw 100, but it appears their offices are mostly in dirt-cheap cities and towns in the South. COL-adjusted, this firm pays more than Wachtell. I'm not trying to reopen the age-old COL debate, but I would not be complaining if I was making six figures in Georgia or South Carolina (other than complaining about the fact that I lived in Georgia or South Carolina); I'd be sitting in the pool behind my mansion.

"The firm [Womble Carlyle] will likely respond to this discontent, if at all, by trotting out its old schtick about how its "culture" is so different from that of law firms that pay more. This may have been true 10 years ago, and is undoubtedly still true if you're comparing it to, say, [King & Spalding]. But this place is no different than [Troutman] or [A+B] or [PoGo] in terms of how associates spend their time (and how much of it they spend), and how they're treated. I can't think of any reason I could legitimately give to a law student of why they should come here if they had offers from these other [GA] firms; I certainly would choose differently if I were a 2L now. Expect increased lateral departures, regardless of what the firm says it will do for bonuses next year."

3:45, I believe it's been pithily and accurately described as "sweat shop." Hope this helps.

possible solution:
Maybe TPW is hiring laterals. I heard they pay well . . .

Sorry you got stuck at Heller.

3:49:

Oh, how follish you are. You have obviously never lived in Atlanta and most definately never bought real estate here. The idea of living in a mansion w/ a pool on a $130k salary is utterly laughable.

But thanks for chimming in, ass hat.

It's not as laughable as the idea of buying a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC or SF on a $160 + bonus salary. Look at any COL calculator on the internet. An Atlanta dollar is worth approximately *double* what a SF or NYC dollar is worth. So someone asking for "NY to 190" is asking for considerably less than the Atlanta $130k you have the audacity to complain about.

Everyone knows those COL calculators are bunk.

The COL calculators aren't bunk. Are you seriously claiming that Atlanta costs as much as Manhattan or San Francisco? You can't get a 1 bedroom apartment in NYC for less than $900k; or in SF for less than $600k. You can buy a house for that in Atlanta. These are facts. Please shut up about your six-figure Atlanta salary. You're rich. We're not.

"You can't get a 1 bedroom apartment in NYC for less than $900k"

That's just not true at all. A luxury doorman building, in a good neighborhood? Maybe not. But I can go on the Times right now and post a myriad of 1-bedrooms, some of them in quite decent neighborhoods, for under $900K.

That being said, I agree with the general theme of your post.

4:09's on the money

4:09 is on crack. 2 bedrooms in doorman, elevator buildings run around a million. 1 bedrooms in similar buildings average out around $650k.

Is that true 4:33? Is San Francisco really just as expensive (if not more) than New York? Because New Yorkers are always quick to tell me otherwise. But you couldn't get a 1-bedroom doorman-building apartment in SF for $650k--you'll pay $550 for a one-bedroom TIC in an inconvenient and relatively shitty neighborhood. All the more reason I guess it would suck ass to be at Heller -- to bring it back to the post.

3:53,

I grew up in ATL-metro, and the fact that you say $130k CAN'T buy you a huge house (by NY-NJ standards) and a pool is laughable. ATL has been tremendously affected by the credit crisis, and houses down there are dirt cheap by comparison. I know that since practically my whole family still lives there. On the other hand, I pay a TON for my tiny NYC apt. The COL difference is very real.

"I've never heard of that firm, so I'll just assume they really are in the AmLaw 100, but it appears their offices are mostly in dirt-cheap cities and towns in the South."

So...you've never heard of them, yet you know where their offices are...?

I just ran a search on a popular broker page limited to nice neighborhoods (the Village, Gramercy, etc.) in Manhattan for 1 bedrooms with doormen and had 33 hits under $700k. I guess SF must be a great place to live. Too bad the checks out there aren't as equivalent.

Who cares exactly what $900K in NYC does or doesn't get you?

You drop $900K in Atlanta you can play basketball in your living room.

4:44, have you ever heard of "the internet" or "googling"? Do they really not have those things in the South?

4:58, if you've googled a firm and researched their locations, can you really say that you've never heard of them, and that you'll just "assume" that they're in the top 100?

Do they not have *logic* wherever the hell you are?

Is it true that Heller's SF office will have 1 SA this year?

so glad i didn't go to heller.

I'm not 4:58 or 3:49, but I'll translate on their behalf, since you're obviously incredibly dense:

"Prior to seeing 3:44's post, I had never heard of this firm. I was curious, so I found their web page. I glanced at it and saw the office sites prominently listed on the main page. I closed that tab on my browser. Now I know (and this is the full extent of my knowledge of this firm) that (a) it apparently exists (though I've never met anyone who actually works there), and (b) that it apparently has offices in a bunch of southern craphole cities (ditto on the caveat)."

On your logic, it would be impermissible for anyone to respond to 3:44 by saying they hadn't heard of this firm, since this response would be precluded by the premise to 3:44's message (that such a firm exists). That's obviously ridiculous. The problem is your (mis)understanding of the phrase "never heard of them." It's generally interpreted to include the implicit (until you told me about them/brought them up).

You're welcome.

5:21, the answer is yes (but I think a second person is also splitting -- and undoubtedly taking the offer from the other side of the split come fall). Truly pathetic.

Also, I agree with everything in the tipster's account. Morale is piss poor, and ateral exits will be through the roof.

Also, I agree with everything in the tipster's account. Morale is piss poor, and lateral exits will be through the roof.

Great effort 5:24. I never heard of people leaving comments on blogs, so I'll just assume it happens, and you're pretty good at it.

I grew up in NJ/NY and I now live in ATL so I (unlike most of the commentators on this board) have actual first hand experience with the relative cost of living in both cities. It is undisputed that NYC is head and shoulders a more expensive place to live. That is not up for debate.

That being said however, I was surprised to find out that buying a home in ATL was not as cheap as I thought it was going to be. My expectations were way out of whack because I was expecting to come down here, have my pick of brand new construction in the best midtown locations and name my price. That did not happen. It cost easily $500,000 for a DECENT 3/2 in an intown neighborhood. Right now all of you who still work in NY are rolling your eyes because a 3/2 condo in NY is easily $1.5M...I know, but you also have to remember that there are not that many people who need that kind of space in NY. Most of you who are Biglaw associates are single or married with no kids. Either way, a 1 BR is sufficient. By contrast, many more associates in ATL actually have families and a 3/2 house is the minimum acceptable size for them.

The bottom line is, associates in NY and in ATL both pay a reasonably similar amount of money for housing which they consider to be adequate for their respective cities and living needs. The fact that one city's definition of adequate housing is different from another is a function of culture, geography, economy, and historical tradition.

The fact is, NY is more expensive, period. But ATL is not the backwater, dirt cheap, redneck, southern dirt hole that many NYers believe it to be.

Dear 10:55pm -- Yes it is.

Why is Skadden equated (a la the tipster and 3:45) to some hellish "sweet shop" culture when it is not economically feasible for any of the "top" NY firms to require any less of their associates than Skadden?

In other words, if all other firms, including Cravath, S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson, etc., did not require as much from their associates, why would anyone use their services when they could get more bang for their buck at Skadden?

I don't get it. Enlighten me.

Mmmmmmmm.... hellish sweet shop...

womble carlyle is a WINSTON-SALEM, NORTH CAROLINA firm

go deacs and all, but give it a rest

12:02,

Not very enlightening but very hilarious; a delicious zing.

Heller Vermin to $145k!

I like the Heller associates that come on here and threaten a mass associate exodus. Given Heller's generally bad press on ATL, the higher-ups have been paying significant attention to the blog-o-sphere (though a little late to the party, now the higher ups are very aware of what is said about the firm on sites like ATL). HOpefully all the bitching will make Heller step up to the plate with their 2008 compensation plan!

11:25, all of those firms are sweat shops. What is your point? The tipster compared Skadden to Heller and Orrick, not to S&C. He or she could have easily substituted "S&C" or Cravath in place of Skadden and the phrase would have had the exact same meaning. I work in SF (for Orrick, not for Heller), and the tipster's point is right on. If the choice is between (a) a CA firm paying below the NY market, but letting associates have some real responsibility (and not just a bunch of doc review) early on and not making everyone bill a million hours and (b) a NY firm with NY hours, NY doc review, hierarchy, and ginormously staffed cases, but higher NY pay, then I guess there's a real choice there. But if the choice is between (a) and (c) (same as (a), except more money), there's not really any choice other than whether you want more money in exchange for nothing.

Heller = (a); Skadden/S&C/Davis/Simpson/whoever = (b); Orrick/Latham/Gibson/etc. = (c).

Thelen is Amlaw 100 and pays shit for bonuses. If they give you a bonus. Which they don't. Not really. Maybe a $5K productivity bonus if you bill 2000 hours. And they don't give lockstep raises. This year associates got $5k or nothing for salary increases. Law students beware - they won't tell you about the two tier salary system where if you bill under 2000 you get paid on the $145 scale; they won't tell you they don't give lockstep increases and they won't tell you that bonuses are non-existent beyond the paltry published productivity bonuses (2100 hours = $15K).

12:23 - Hogan is similar. While the two-tier salary track is nice if you're a parent, it's not for the people that don't get enough work to bill over 2000 and are forced into the much lower pay scale. The bonuses aren't great either. Apparently this is "market" for DC firms. So if it's about the money it makes more sense to work in a DC office of a NY firm. But even when all you're doing is document review at Hogan you can still a good government gig so I guess that's the trade-off?

There are other Amlaw 100 firms that don't even guarantee 45k for a bonus. Heller can't be the lowest paying firm.

3:15 - What do you mean when you say "this is 'market' for DC firms"?

Do other DC firms have two-tiered comp structures?

Heller seems to have really high standards for associates. Why do people stick around?

6:38: It may be that the situation is not quite so bad as ATL makes it seem.

I think people stick around because they keep hoping firm management will realize their mistake and fix it.

Remember these problems are recent. For 06 and earlier grads, when they came to Heller the firm had a great reputation. It was without doubt one of the top three firms in SF, and their pay was on par with the other top firms (namely MoFo and Orrick).

Only in this last bonus season did their pay become blatantly unacceptable (that is for a firm that is supposed to be one of the top firms in SF).

Overall, Heller is a great place to work: high profile litigation, reasonable partners who don't expect you to be in the office all night or all weekend, and a generally nice group of associates. However, no matter how great the firm is, no one should have to take a $40k pay cut to work there. Especially in the bay area where you need every last dime to save for a down-payment on your $800k 2bd/2ba condo.

Boy I'm glad I didn't choose Heller last summer

Not many firms like Hogan have official two-tiered structures. I know Wiley does off the top of my head, but I know that there are others. I meant that not as great bonuses are "market" for DC firms. Associates at the Hogans, Patton Boggs, DSMOs, A&Ps etc aren't getting paid NY top tier firm bonuses/special bonuses as a matter of right.

They just reinstated the 2000 hour bonus for LAST year in THIS year's compensation memo. If they were going to do this, why didn't they announce it before....

Retroactive 2000-Hour Bonus for 2007: We are also retroactively reinstating the 2000-hour bonus for 2007. Any associate who achieved 2000 hours in 2007 has already received a portion of the 2000-hour bonus as a “make whole” payment and will receive the balance on March 14.
As a reminder, associates in our California, Seattle, Washington, D.C., and Madison offices received salary increases on June 1 of last year. At the same time, the 2000-hour bonus was dropped in those offices. Because this was a mid-year adjustment, we recognized that an associate reaching 2000 hours would receive less total compensation under the new system in 2007. We committed to pay the difference and did so in January of this year. The firm is paying the remaining balance to retroactively pay the full 2000-hour bonus. As an example, a fourth-year associate who achieved 2000 hours last year, received a “make whole” bonus of $8333 in January and will receive $11,667 on March 14 for a total bonus of $20,000.

Also a big development from the Heller memo:

effective January 1, 2008, we are establishing a 300-hour career development credit for first year associates that can be applied to the billable hours minimum expectation of 1900 hours. A first year associate who devotes 300 hours to career development will only have a 1600 billable hour expectation. Career-development hours will be treated for all purposes as billable hours within our compensation system.

Heller seems to be discussing 300 hours of CLE or training. Which firms allow associates to bill hours to "education" accounts? What I'm thinking of here is if an associate spends four hours on something that should have taken one. I have heard that at some firms those three hours can be charged to an education account so that the client doesn't get charged but the associate gets credit for spending the time to do it right. Anyone heard of this?

There is a huge discrepancy among Amlaw 100. The top 20 and then about 30-40 (mostly NY based) firms are in one category, and everyone else in the rest. These 50-60 firms have the lock step and bonuses. The rest - Thelen, Womble, etc. - will NEVER match in comp., even though they are Amlaw 100.

To the poster who whined about a "decent 3/2" easily costing "$500,000" in ATL, hello try $3mil for NYC.

$2mil for 2bed.

$750-$1.7m for 1 bed.

To the posters who are saying there are these "$500k" or "$650k" apts around here, you are looking in Harlem or the Bronx or some craphole with roaches.

Rest of the country, do not whine about NY salaries.