Wait... Jones Day moved to 160?!? WTF? I am so screwed...

145 first year...

I made 33k as a second year paralegal at JD in DC. Plus OT!!!!

I have a few friends at Jones Day. They all say associates are strictly prohibited from discussing salary and bonuses. The reason being, they quickly depart from lock-step. The firm is not hesitant to withhold bonuses or lower base salary by 1-2 class years for average or poor reviews. The upshot is that they can and do go a little above market for their top performers. It's almost like a partner comp scheme, but the bias seems to be toward docking people for being anything less than exceptional (for both quality and hours).

My firm assumes that most resumes it receives from JD have been shunned, and a look to the pay stub will prove it. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they are bad. There are rumors that the review process is not entirely fair (and clearly not transparent), and even extremely smart associates can find themselves on the outside looking in if they are not in the right circles.

ATL would have to go deep, deep under cover to get a handle on what JD does with comp.

What about Greenberg NY? Salary/bonus? Any news?

It was fun watching the JD associates squirm when I asked them about their bonuses/ compensation during call-backs. They tried to say that the firm's midwestern values made it unseemly for associates to speak about compensation openly. This Michigander left unconvinced.

Why were you interviewing at JD out of HLS?

MARK MY WORDS!!! UNLESS YOU CLERKED SCOTUS, DON'T -- DON'T -- GO TO JONES DAY. PERIOD. END OF STORY. PERIOD ONE MORE TIME.

THE END.

When I summered at JD, over ten associates told me they never once received a bonus (one had billed 2500 hours and still no bonus). I received an offer and half of those associates who told me about their bonuses told me to turn down my offer and go somewhere where I would get paid for my hours.

Yeah seriously, people are acting like 'JD sucks' is a surprise. I knew that even before law school.

9:53 is exactly right about how it works for review and compensation. There is nothing else to add.

HLS alum:

why do you feel the need to tell us all where you went? I, personally, am VERY proud of you for having gone to HLS. Congratulations!

But their DC office location is practically next to my house---probably all they have going for them.

If you don't want to lose all your bonuses to taxes, go here:

http://ivotemitt.wordpress.com

I had heard good things about JD DC. I didn't realize they only applied if you were appellate practice material (which I was not). On the positive side, it is possible to make partner there, versus many of the other big law firms where that is rarely the case...

Oh, and I think we'll need to wait until tonight to hear from any real JD associates. They'll be too scared about a possible witch hunt to post any good info.

Context, baby, context.

Any Foley news? Starting there this summer but haven't heard anything yet.

9:39 and 10:22 -- If Foley makes any changes, they will be announced in the coming weeks. Foley does not give raises until March 1, retroactive to the start of the new fiscal year on Feb. 1. This gives management a little extra time to make any comp decisions. My prediction - no change to the system, which means Foleyites are stuck with the same ass backwards comp system for another year. If you have questions, talk to the people you interviewed with. Associates there tend tobe very open about it.

To rebut 10:25's snarky comment, I'd like to say that I was very pleased with my summer experience at Foley. I could have gone to a lot of other firms, but the folks at Foley seemed to have the best attitude. I'm strongly considering returning once I finish up clerking.

Jones Day is a rock solid law firm. Everybody who whines about "secret" salary structures should go get a real job. Out in the real world, you actually have to earn salary increases and bonuses. You cannot just coast on three years of school. Lock step compensation only protects the weak, lazy, and incompetent.

And no, I do not work at Jones Day.

Now that we've hijacked this thread, shouldn't Lat give the Foley situation (or lack thereof) its own thread?

Hey Foley idiots, get your own thread.

I was a JD summer and was shown paystubs from a couple of associates and one was slightly above the class average for his year, but with bonus ended up below it for comparable firms, the other was on class average but had been promised more the next year. Compensation is determined once a year and you receive a letter telling you your compensation for the following year. In very busy practice groups that have high attrition people can make more money or if you are an allstar you make more money, but from what I understand you will probably make less if you are anything short of superior to all your classmates.

I didn't accept my offer to go back and accepted a lower vault ranked firm that pays bonuses and has lockstep compensation on the full 160 scale.

10:40 -- people are just passing around paystubs? Really.

9:54

My contacts with Greenberg say they are clamping down on overhead (maybe changes to the summer program?) and I doubt much will change otherwise, so no upward movement of salary/bonus. That said, they are at 160, though compressed like everyone else outside of NY.

@ 10:36

If you have never worked there, you can't say that JD is "rock solid" when it comes to associates.

It's not just about the salary (which is below market), it's the lack of associate development and shady review process.

As someone who worked there, I would not recommend it if there are other options.

10:36 exactly. If you choose not to go to JD because you're afraid you won't be able to perform, then the HR department has accomplished its mission. Go and douche around at another firm for 3-4 years and collect your lockstep comp. I'm not trying to be a turd here. Lockstep comp is fantastic, it allows you to clear $1M if you're 26 and not quite sure what you want to do. JD's scheme discourages this.

Just one more person who summered at JD a couple years ago. DO NOT GO THERE. Associates hate it and they make no money. The firm hemorrhages associates.

Not a lot of people, but people who were friendly to me did literally show me their paystubs on a payday. not a lot of people, but a couple.

Other people talked about it and I spoke with former associates of the firm who knew more than I did and had no reason not to be candid with me. I felt like I had a good idea of what was going on.

JD gives "raises" based on 3 categories (I forget what the lawyer called them): good, better, best, which I think broke down to 5-10-15 in Cleveland, perhaps higher at the top, but it seemed like 2/3 of the people got screwed and the remaining 1/3 didn't get that much of a "bonus".

10:51

1. Actually I can say it is rock solid, I work with JD folks all the time. The smart, motivated ones get promoted and stay. The lazy do not.

2. The review process is not shady. Go get a real job outside biglaw. Everybody else, except the government, gets private reviews and differential raises BASED ON PERFORMANCE.

3. If you cannot perform and want to go hide out in a lock-step firm, go ahead. I just hope it is not mine. With any luck you'll get weeded out during recruiting.

We've heard *a lot* from people who don't work at the firm, or people who only summered there, but is there anyone out there who is currently working there? Where are you!?

Foley Milwaukee to 190!

-

None of this JD stuff should be news. It's pretty notorious, and it's pretty clear JD does not care.

The problem with lock step compensation is that people who under-perform are overpaid. People who excel are underpaid. In the end, the overt cost to the law firm of lock step payment is probably negligible, it probably balances out more or less the same. For outstanding associates, however, they are not rewarded appropriately for the high quality of their work.

On the other hand, firms are hurt because less productive associates stay. They have no particular incentive to do a better job, and no incentive to leave. In terms of opportunity costs, firms lose with this method. Where they could be providing incentives for associates to work harder, they instead encourage them to coast.

Bonuses do not fill this need because they only encourage associates to work more, not to do a better job. Other internal structures hopefully compensate, but the current salary scheme is not as effective as the traditional merit based salaries and bonuses found in other industries.

Learned Disciple:

You seem to imply that only dreamy, crappy, weak and lazy people work for lockstep firms. The facts show otherwise; lockstep firms are the very best firms: Cravath, Sullivan, Davis Polk, Simpson, Cleary, Debevoise.

For what its worth, JD NY pays market salary and market bonus if you hit hours (2000). This included the "regular bonus" and "special" bonus this year.

As all the comments above state, if you billed below, you got a smaller bonus. However, if you billed above, you can get an above market-salary. MEANING, people in JD NY who are big billers make more than their counterparts a Cravath, SullCrom and all the other lockstep firms in NY.

NOTE: THIS IS ONLY FOR THE NY OFFICE.

I am a JD associate in a non-NY office. My salary is a little above NY lock-step. I billed not much more than 2K hours last year, although I guess I am thought of well. Including my bonus, though, I am still below comparable firms in my area in terms of total comp.

wow, a post that does not smash cwt.. this is odd.

11:22.

I am absolutely not saying that. Many very smart, hard-working people work for lock step firms.

What I am saying is that only "dreamy, crappy, weak and lazy people" choose which firm to work for based solely on salary structure.

All this whining is annoying. I billed far less than my buddies at the other big Chicago shops last year, and made more - yes, including a nice, fat bonus. The bitter JD Associates (or summer associates, or people who didn't get call backs and just want to hate) who post here are the ones who aren't long for the JD world (or were never in it) anyway. Learned Disciple has it right - go lockstep your way into sub-adequacy somewhere else. If you can hack it here, you will be well paid. That's on you, though, not JD.

9:53,

What does this sentence mean?

"My firm assumes that most resumes it receives from JD have been shunned, and a look to the pay stub will prove it."

I'm not being a dick and mocking your grammar, I just don't understand what you're trying to say. Does it mean that your firm [and, impliedly, other firms] don't take laterals from JD? Please explain if you get a chance.

Can we get a post about Sidley compensation? They seem to be the only top 20 firm in NYC that hasnt had coverage.

JD NY pays regular and special bonuses just like all the other NY firms. But this is only in NY.

11:44, no Sidley coverage? Try searching "Sidley" on ATL. There was an entire thread for its NY bonuses, then coverage of non-NY offices.

Re: Foley stuff from above.

1. Foley will take its time to make its decision

2. The firm is moving more in a "national" direction - that doesn't mean the firm will have a uniform pay scale, but it means that they will increase salary (and expectations of its associates)

3. Expect raises in strategic markets - Milwaukee (if they want to fashion themselves as a credible alternative to Chicago law firms in a smaller city) and Florida (to match any raises by the large local firms), and even Madison and Detroit (where they are top of the market), because they want to preserve morale and there are not tons of associates.

4. Foley will never change their bonus structure - the firm seems to recruit the people they want to recruit in FL, WI, and MI - the major markets where they are sub-160, and there is no reason to pay massive bonuses when the top talent in CA and IL will go to Latham or Kirkland.

I'd like to point out that Loeb & Loeb is guilty of the same compressed well-below market salary and bonus structure as Jones Day. They don't pay market (though they claim to). Compression between class years is HUGE - about 5K per year or less. Bonuses are very small as well. 1st year bonuses were 10-15K, 2nd 10-18K, 3rd 15-20K. Aside from that, it is a miserable place to work.

I will throw Seyfarth in with JD and Loeb...pays 160k in NY only (145k elsewhere) and really bad compresssion particularly for 5-7th years. Bonuses are pretty low too and are highly individualized ranging from 5k - 60k. Also does not give out bonuses/raises until LATE feb.

The upside is that Seyfarth is a really great place to work where associates can get a lot of good substantive experience and still have a life outside the office (not quite a "lifestyle" firm with 1950 minimums/2000 for bonus but pretty decent).

12:03, do really believe that all the "top talent in CA and IL" will go to Latham or Kirkland? In IL in particular, do you not see any choices fallling somewhere between Kirkland and Jones Day?

Some folks seem to ignore (especially, and understandably, around bonus season, when Kirkland reigns supreme and some associates are wondering why they didn't accept an offer there) the numerous variables that differentiate and cause the stratification of firms in Chicago. There are indeed differences and strata.

Completely agree. Work in NY or Chicago office of JD and do a good job. If so, you will make above market.

In NY, only people making higher will be Wachtell.

The reason comp is secret is because a 6th year who does well, bills high and is well respected doesn't want to have to tell the 6th year next to him (who does not bill high) that he makes 60K more.

Total meritocracy and if you thrive in that enviroment (benefits for a job well done), JD NY or Chicago is the place to work.

this post should differentiate between JD offices.

I am at JD chicago, and they take good care of us.

if you meet your hours (2000), then you will get market, or above market, bonus. salaries are at market or above market for most in my group. look, if you are looking for a place to be mediocre, then don't come here.

also, I don't know anything about DC or NY... this only applies to chicago.

what about JD Houston?

I am an incoming associate. I can attest that at least in NY, the pay is at least market. And I know that for a fact that the incoming associate get a flat fee compensation of 7.5K for summer and another bonus by the end of the year. To me, that is not bad.

To to the HBS comments, school does not matter. Many people choose where to attend based on the people, not their resumes.

Foley could well raise to $145 in Milwaukee. $160 is way out of bounds on a COL basis, but would certainly make things interesting.

Foley recruits very heavily from their own backyard i.e. there are twice as many Wisconsin grads as Harvard grads in the firm. All the Big 10 schools combine to probably well over a third of their people.

With that recruiting base, they do not need to offer NY salary in markets that are, frankly, dirt cheap by comparison.

What about the JD Texas offices? Isn't Dallas one of the biggest offices in the entire firm?

From what I understand the Jones Day Bonus program mainly consists of its associates monitoring the ATL board to see other firm's reward their associates for their hard work and dedication...

This thread made me realize how my rancid TTT idiots visit this site. All the talk about Jones Day, Foley, Loeb, & Seyfarth makes me want to puke. Those firms are toilets. Period.

Get a grip people -- you don't work at V5 firms (or in some cases, even V50 firms), so please stop expecting V5 compensation structures. If you had gone to a top law school maybe you could have landed a better firm.

"This thread made me realize how my rancid TTT idiots visit this site"

Are you referring to your minions? Or did you mean "how *many* rancid..."? I guess proof-reading is too TTT for an elitist such as yourself.

And if you want to supress your urge to vomit, perhaps you should stop clicking on threads on Jones Day, or any other firm that elicits such an unpleasant response.

12:42:

You sir (or ma'am), are an ass.

JD associate in chicago. I billed 2000 plus and received NY level bonus. I am very happy with my comp. Smiles all around when the letters came.

JD associate in chicago. I billed 2000 plus and received NY level bonus. I am very happy with my comp. Smiles all around when the letters came.

I'm an associate at JD, and if I'm the best, the firm will take care of me. They say I'm not the best yet, so I make less than everyone else working in BigLaw. I will be the best, though, and JD will pay me more (but a lower bonus). That's okay because it's a meritocracy, or so I've been told but don't really know because no one making more will tell me. People who want a market salary must be "dreamy" because then they only get paid the same amount for doing the same work as all their friends at other firms. What losers! I follow the thinking of the learned disciple (who probably went to TTT school and is sad that law school admissions were meritocratic) and those dreamy people should just shut up.

Jones Day is one of the top law firms in the nation, period. You can gripe all you want, but their roster of clients and peer review (e.g. Corporate Board Member) argues they are a top law firm.

Foley is a very good firm, though not as large as Jones Day.

Seyfarth is a good Chicago law firm - plenty of people would be happy to work there, trust me. Are they Sidley? No, but a good law firm nevertheless.

JD associate in chicago. I billed 2000 plus and received NY level bonus. I am very happy with my comp. Smiles all around when the letters came.

Although I might not have put it the same way as 12:42, I do agree with his point: people from firms with less impressive reputations should not be expecting compensation structures similar to those of elite firms. And this includes Jones Day. Even though its Vault ranking is fairly high, I don't know any V20 lawyers who consider Jones Day to be a peer-firm, at least in terms of prestige, and prestige often seems correlated to compensation.

JD associate in chicago. I billed 2000 plus and received NY level bonus. I am very happy with my comp. Smiles all around when the letters came.

12:42

Judging by your writing, I suspect you aren't at a V50 firm either. Did you go to law school? Most of them teach you how to write.

1:03 - prestige has nothing to do with it - profitability is everything. Thus, CWT should play with the V5 on bonuses, and firms like Sidley and Jones Day should pay less, because their partners make less. It should all be proportional.

1:01: JD is one of the best firms in the country compared to...? Compared to anybody in the V5... nope. Compared to anybody in the V20... nope.

In an absolute sense, yeah, they are one of the best firms in the country. But there are tens of thousands of firms. But in a relative sense (i.e., relative to other highly ranked vault firms), JD clearly lags. On the basis of reputation, compensation, selectivity, etc... which are really the only factors that matter.

I agree with 1:06. I like things that are proportional. One time I dated this girl and she was not proportional. We broke up.

This is not a Jones Day post. Why are you keep ignoring what's going on at Jones Day, Lat? If they had given $1 bonuses, would you have covered it?

ugh. JDer's always report that they're "happy" or some other nonsense, but they never give a number. there's something weird in the kool-aid over there.

I actually agree with 1:34 - no other firm in the country is as difficult to get the numbers from - perhaps because it is truly individualized, so if one squeals, they know who the culprit is.

who does the most m+a deals in the world?

let's see....http://www.thomson.com/solutions/financial/investbank/leaguetable_home/#func2

i'm a former JD associate. i was a star and a heavy biller. my reward was a zero bonus and base comp $5K higher than my peers.

sorry, but beating the market by 5K on base comp doesn't mean much when you're total comp is way behind similar firms.

also, partner comp there is way behind, unless you've been there for a few decades. i knew a 5th yr partner who billed crazy hours and had a large and loyal book of business, and his comp was only around $400k.

btw, when i told the office managing partner that one of the reasons i was leaving was the non-existent bonus policy, his response was that they generally like to evaluate an associate for a few years before awarding bonuses. any lawyer who gives JD a few years to test drive the product in hopes of a big score is an idiot.

12:42 - What makes a V5 firm that isn't going to make you or anyone else a partner so great for associates anyway? They pay you well to keep you, then throw you out when you're no longer useful to any other firm because you're too senior (i.e, the same "toilets" that won't take you as a partner). Sure the compensation and bonuses are better, but then what - you'll wind up in a government or teaching job making less than the partners at the so-called "toilets."

1:53 - office???

1:53 - Chicago

1:53 - Chicago

12:42 - What makes a V5 firm that isn't going to make you or anyone else a partner so great for associates anyway? They pay you well to keep you, then throw you out when you're no longer useful to any other firm because you're too senior (i.e, the same "toilets" that won't take you as a partner). Sure the compensation and bonuses are better, but then what - you'll wind up in a government or teaching job making less than the partners at the so-called "toilets."

I'm a 4th yr JD Dallas assoc. It's true that this place is VERY secretive about money. I'm making market rate for my class year in TX. My bonus was on the low side if you compare it to NY, but I don't have an NY cost of living.

Anyone who buys the whole "midwestern values" pay secrecy thing is a moron and gets what they deserve. Do you really think for a minute that these lawyers would not leverage a higher or more fair comp system for all the publicity possible, if it actually existed? And based on an earlier post re the NY office at market salary and bonus, it seems like it does not offend midwestern values to talk about the salaries in the NY office.

Seriously people, use your brains. If someone is hiding something from you, or even worse, forbidding you to seek the information yourself, it is because. . .

JD Chitown, you're a complete douche.

One problem facing Foley Milwaukee is that the IP groups are all on the $160 scale right now, while the rest of the office is at $135. That sort of disparity hasn't gone over well.

2:03/2:11, you're retarded.

Let's see, why would I want to work at a V5 firm... How about (1) access to better in-house positions, (2) access to better lateral positions, (3) better salary. Why would you think associates end up in government or teaching positions? Because you're an idiot? Associates lateral while they're still marketable.

Seyfarth may be paying $145 outside of NYC, but watch the firms who followed Simpson, etc. to $160 in the next few months and see how many of them have lay-offs. I'd rather make $145 than $0.

I look into JD (they are across the street) and see soulless, depressed associates who KNOW they aren't getting paid the same as I....Heh heh heh.

Foley secondary and tertiary markets to $160!

10:40 - "I was a JD summer and was shown paystubs from a couple of associates..."

That's funny. I was under the impression that doing something like that could be a firing offense at JD. Not that it didn't happen.

Just stupid that one could be fired for that.

Hi,

JD DC associate here. I agree, the compensation issues suck. There is no transparency, and it's really hard to figure out whether you are being paid the market rate. Also, firm management is really immature about even talking about money. The attitude seems to be that JD is so great that you should want to work here at any cost. That being said, there are some amazing people to work with and there is great work, if you can get it.

Minneapolis firms just kicked up to 125 only a few months ago. Pathetic.

2:33- what's a "better lateral position" if you're already at a V5? You're still lateraling down, no? Where do you think you're making a "better salary" than the 250k+ plus you're making at biglaw, before they dump you as a senior associate? So for 2-4 more years you make a better bonus than people at JD and other non-top 5 firms?

NY to 145!

From a former JD DC associate --

Why is the compensation system secret? Answer: because it allows the partners to increase their pay at the expense of associates.

Take this thread for example. The reason we wanted it is because there's no way to put pressure on the managing partner and the admin parner. We are in the dark and that's the way they like it. If the compensation system is so great, open it up and let us look. Then we'll understand.

The firmwide head of recruiting (who is the most anti-bonus) is in for a shock when JD DC gets no recruits from top ten schools because the pay is less. Why would you come to JD if you KNOW that you won't get a bonus. The only ones you'll get are the ones with no better options.

With that said, the partners, associates and staff are great to work with. Its a shame that the firm won't pony up the extra million dollars to compensate the associates in line with everyone else. The antitrust practice inparticular is top notch. I was sad to leave.

Why is JD different than other non top 20 or so firms? Top ten law graduates go to firms that pay little to no bonus like Hogan all the time.

3:38 -- hear, hear! If the Chicago office had paid even half the bonus amount that their peer firms paid and been clear about their rationale for the difference, I probably would have stayed. But who needs all that mystery when you can go somewhere that's up front with you and transparent enough that you know where you stand? The people may be nice (and even that is overstated), but that doesn't entitle JD to a discount.

As someone who will make more my first year out of law school than my parents make COMBINED, I wonder at what point some attorneys will put this stuff into perspective.

Do you really need to know that you're making as much as (or more than) the person down the hall and/or the person across the street to feel a sense of validation? If you're really in it for the $ then go work for a plaintiffs firm or go into business and make some real money (aka tens of millions). When you're making over $160k and you cry because of how it compares to others you year doing "comparable" work you make me want to puke.

I think we need to get something straight here. Those of you who think that you're getting big bonuses to reward you for your "hard work and dedication" are kidding yourselves. Salary + bonus are just one method firms use to recruit. It's hard for a law student to see a real difference between two BigLaw firms (yes, I know there are some exceptions), but not hard to understand "160K + 0" and "160K + 30." (or whatever it is you people get who work for bonus paying firms. I wouldn't know.)

So the question for Jones Day shouldn't be "how much do we want to reward our associates." It should be "how much are we willing to pay to attract and keep the people we want." If they can get away with this ass-backwards compensation system (which is what it is - no matter how many creative ways you come up with to explain it) while achieving desired recruiting (and retention) results, more power to them. If they're unsatisified, then they need to ante up. Yes, there's high turnover. But if you're going to take 20 people in a summer class and make at most 4 of them partners, well, 16 of those people have to leave at some point. I'm guessing that you don't hear much from the 4 others because they probably don't have much to complain about.

This system appears to have worked in the days before the internet. We'll see how well it works now that every law student in the country can pull up threads like this one. I've been very happy with my overall experience here. Like anyone else, I'd like to be paid more. Meeting the market provides a concrete target to shoot at. But my whining about it won't change anything. JD losing recruits, though, will. Thanks for the thread Lat.

Stockholm Syndrome:

T14 school
V20 firm (V5 offers)

any idea how compressed cleveland/columbus/pitsburgh pay is?

4:06, you miss the point. my goal is not to make more than the person down the hall. my goal is to make sure that i'm not doing the exact same work as others in my city, but for $20-30K less.

sure, we're highly paid. that doesn't mean the OMP should be able to give me a pay cut without me knowing.

4:28 - that is the problem - the firm is truly not lock-step. some 3rd or 4th year might be making only 5-10k more than they did as 1st years... and another attorney might be making 40-50k more. Of course, nobody really knows since nobody talks, so maybe everybody gets low-balled, or (more unlikely), everybody does well but they want to hide that fact...

4:43 is right - if the top firm in Cleveland paid $70k, and the other firms could afford $70k, why would you want to work for the firm paying $50k unless you had a choice in the matter? That's why law firm salaries naturally stabilize within markets - with certain exceptions (e.g. Wachtell in NYC, Susman in Houston, Foley in Milwaukee, Skadden in Wilmington) - where one firm actually pays more than any other firm in town. Thus, if I work at Jones Day, signing up for first-year salary of 160k in DC, 2 years later when I'm making 50k less than my neighbors at WilmerHale, I'm a little irritated, esp. if I'm working in antirust or some other nationally regarded practice.

Is it odd that JD seems to have paid Chicago bonuses, but not DC?

Did no one in DC get a bonus, or are the only people who are posting on ATL the "underperformers"?

And it seems like someone in Dallas got a bonus, did all in Dallas get something?

We should make a map and detail the JD bonuses/total comp since it seems like The Man wants to make it difficult.

you know what's odd? there are well over one hundred posts on the page, and the only dollar amount reported is the salary for paralegals.

recruits, bear this in mind - if you join JD, you must take a vow of silence.

5:08 - we started this process on some earlier threads. Compression in salaries across all offices. JD NY paid regular + special bonus. JD Chicago paid enough that the associates there seem (oddly) happy. JD SF/SV paid a bonus but definitely under market. JD DC paid nothing.

Word from other JD offices?

Texas Associates? What say you?

So when JD says it pays Chicago market bonuses, what does that mean? Did they match Kirkland or Skadden levels? Or is the market in Chicago set lower?

Most associates at JD Los Angeles do not recieve bonuses. It is very discouraging to be working the same hours as your friends at other firms while getting paid significantly less. Even the superstars are paid less than their counterparts at other firms. There is a LOT of associate dissatisfaction.

I have never been to this website prior to today. However, a friend and colleague just showed me this blog regarding third year associate compensation at Jones Day. I am a third year lawyer at Jones Day. I enjoy my job and am paid well (and I mean darn well) above market. I hesitated to respond to the mudslinging by persons who are either disgruntled or misinformed, but as a current happy third year lawyer at Jones Day, I felt the need to set the record straight - or at least give an informed, non-disgruntled opinion.

People who are unhappy with their compensation at Jones Day are in fact underperformers. Believe me, if I were in charge, I would fire those people rather than giving them a $160,000 "hint" that they aren't Jones Day material and should consider a career change. Because anyone who thinks that paying a third year lawyer the published salary of a first year lawyer is not a "message" about work quality is delusional. In no other profession do competent, mature people complain about being compensated based on their performance (or lack thereof).

To reiterate: I did not clerk. I have never billed more than 2100 hours. I have received bonuses despite billing slightly under 2000 hours. I have had many fantastic substantive opportunities (read: not two years of document review). I enjoy my job and colleagues. I am paid based on the quality (again, not quantity) of my work, which turns out to be more than most 4th year (again, I am a 3rd year) lawyers billing the same amount at other big firms in NY.

And the beauty of our confidential system is that other greedy jealous underperforming associates aren't blogging about my pay stub. Instead, those "lawyers" have gotten the Jones Day "hint" (or will soon) and are now spending their time either unemployed or at a new employer - not representing clients, but blogging all day about their ex-employer who figured out that they were worthless.

8:30 - thanks for the information. This is what I've generally heard, but it was nice to read that it isn't all that bad amid the negative chi on this blog. If you don't mind me asking, what market are you in?

I did not review all of the comments, as they were somewhat tiresome. Let me offer just a few points. First, JD is up front about its pay structure. Although I know that most of the people posting comments here likely have either not worked or held a "real" job before working in a firm, I have no sympathy for people who accept a job knowing the contract they entered and then whine about later. Bottom line: if you want to be paid for your hours, accept a job at a firm that compensates you based upon billable hours. I feel like I'm missing something here. Are people really that ignorant. Second, the sound economics and business model supporting JD's compensation structure makes sense. Merit-based compensation compensates those who deserve it. Compensating attorneys based upon billable hours not only uses an improper metric of performance but also promotes unethical behavior. I have often thought about the attorney who needs only 5 more hours to receive another $10K bonus. Would that attorney "find" those five hours? Perhaps add back in all of those "conversations" about a case he had with his wife or thoughts he had in the car. I think I know the answer. Third, your facts are wrong. I am a 2001 grad and get paid above market. I have also worked out of two JD offices, and received above market pay at each. In addition, I billed 2,150 and received a bonus comparable to bonuses paid in the market. If you are a JD attorney and are not being paid appropriately, there is a reason. Fourth, most of the comments ignore the intangible benefits of working at Jones Day.

The one thing I can tell you is that every office is quite different in terms of compensation. I am in the DC office, and I can attest to the fact that bonuses are not paid to the DC office. Perhaps they make ad hoc exceptions, but I have never heard of anyone getting a bonus. Salaries are "around" market, but it does not seem like the firm is shy about paying below market. Based on my own personal knowledge (based on what people have told me), a few are getting $5k-$10k above market, but a greater number are getting $5k-$10k less.

The lack of a bonus does not make me want to leave in and of itself. However, it is not an easy pill to swallow. I find it hard to believe that we stay competitive in recruiting. If I were a first year, I'm not sure how I would justify taking a job that would pay me $30k-$40k less per year. Laywers get paid a lot, but I think it is plain stupid to turn down tens of thousands of dollars. We do a lot of litigation in the DC office, which is good, because I'm not sure I would trust business advice coming from someone who made that decision for themselves.

I interviewed with Jones Day and found it hilarious that they told me that "Some attorneys make 20 or 30 thousand above market."

Reading this board, it sounds like that is because some attorneys are making 20 or 30 BELOW market! haha! Glad I'm heading to Covington instead!

With all due respect, 8:30, I don't think it is simply a matter of "underperfomers" getting paid below market. The fact of the matter is I have never heard of a single associate in the Washington DC office of Jones Day EVER receiving a bonus. In fact, I know many attorneys who are anything but underperformers (high billers, active recruiters, all-round good lawyers and good people) that have never received a bonus. So, please, get off your high horse.

I believe what we have seen in this thread is what we already suspected. It appears that all Jones Day offices in major markets (including Dallas !!) receive at least some sort of bonus EXCEPT for DC. Many in DC see no principled reason for this and take it rather personally. And even those few superstars (probably no more than 1/3 by anyone's reckoning) who get a bit more than "market" salary still fall well short of "market" compensation when the lack of bonus is figured in. These are the facts.

Look, a lot us like Jones Day. It is a great firm, with great people, and great opportunities. This is true, I can say, of the DC office in particular. But in the end, a lot of associates are discouraged/disappointed by the lack of bonuses when it is clear this is no longer a firm-wide policy. We know that Jones Day DC can pay them -- they have simply chosen not to.

JD Associate @ 09:19 PM:

There are no intangible benefits of working at Jones Day.

It is a standard law firm.

Based on my experience, these salaries seem pretty correct for the DC office of Jones Day:

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=DC1440

These salaries seem pretty correct for the DC office:

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=DC1440

I know its supposedly "taboo" to discuss compensation at JD, but the fact that every other office was paid a bonus except DC is odd.

Clearly this wasn't a individualized merit-based assessment since it applied to the entire office, so has anyone in DC actually asked about this?

I mean if its their policy to reward individual merit then their actions in DC seem contrary to this.

I'm a junior associate at Jones Day. I can only speak for myself, of course, since we don't discuss that stuff with each other here, but my compensation is very generous.
I don't know first-hand about compensation in DC, but I do know that our pay is calculated through a centralized process in which every US associate's performance is compared to every other's performance. Based on this, I don't think it makes sense that none of the DC associates receive a bonus; we're all judged on the same scale. Maybe those that went bonus-less are the only ones talking about it.
Personally, I appreciate the nondisclosure rule. I work with a lot of people I consider my good friends, and it would likely cause rivalry and bitterness if we all compared salaries.

JD Associate - Great. Everyone is happy for you that you can cut it at JD. But, for recruits considering multiple offers it simply doesn't make sense to go someplace where you don't have a firm grasp on their comp. structure. You take a risk by doing so, and ultimately most law students don't know whether they will be "good" or "bad" associates. It makes sense to eliminate risk. If you want extra compensation for your efforts there are plenty of firms that reward top billers and top performers for their efforts.

You're right -- it doesn't make sense that none of the DC associates receive a bonus. But so it is. I have yet to hear one DC associate pipe up to say otherwise.

10:04, nice try on the "those that went bonus-less" route. I agree with you that my pay is very generous, and I don't "need" a bonus, but you're also right that it doesn't make sense that none of that DC associates receive a bonus. HOWEVER, IT'S TRUE. JD too at 9:28 is right. The DC office has simply chosen not to give them.

And through this thread, I've learned that practically every other US JD office gives bonuses except DC. No matter how much money I do or don't make, I gotta say, that doesn't make me feel like the DC office is an integral part of the team.

but to temper (or add to) what 10:13pm is saying, it is just the DC office that apparently does not pay bonuses to anyone. From this thread, it sounds like NY, Chicago, and Dallas pay bonuses that make the associates happy. No one gave numbers, but I would imagine they are around market or else they would be using this forum to tell us otherwise.

If I were a DC associate that got a big bonus, and all of my friends were bitching about not getting them, I wouldn't pipe up either.

JD Dallas just announced that it was implementing a new merit-based bonus system for associates. It is supposed to get the associates who meet some unknown subjective criteria ("NOT hours, I repeat, NOT hours") up to market compensation in Dallas. We were told to trust the firm. This is after the firm screwed everyone over on bonuses that were announced in December (most barely five figures). While the rest of Texas raised in the second half of 2007, JD Texas did nothing. They only announced the new system because the associates were openly bitching to any partner who would listen. They will do the bare minimum to keep associates around and only then will do it kicking and screaming.

JD Dallas: sounds like what they did to the associates in Cleveland.

10:18--they wouldn't post on an anonymous message board?? That doesn't make much sense.

And, for the record, no one from the DC office has ever posted that they have ever received a $1 bonus, much less a "big bonus."

These salaries sound about right for Jones Day DC:

www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=DC1440

"Personally, I appreciate the nondisclosure rule. I work with a lot of people I consider my good friends, and it would likely cause rivalry and bitterness if we all compared salaries."

Wouldn't it be better if you all just knew that you make the same amount, as at lockstep NYC firms? Then you know you are paid at the top of the market AND there is no bitter rivalry.

I am an associate in the Chicago office of JD (less than 4 years). This last year I billed over 2000 hours. Like others, I cannot give the actual number, but I will tell you that it was slightly less than Kirkland Chicago and MUCH more than Sidley Chicago.

With that said, the bonuses are not the same for everyone. So some may have received more, some may have received less; take it for what it is worth.

Before bonus time you have a review that is based off the firm calendar year. You receive a ranking in comparison to your peers. You don't know who is better or who is worse off, and you certainly do not know the numbers for anyone else. Your review (and comp) is based off of both the billables AND the quality of work.

While I know that many of my fellow associates received bonuses (and they seemed satisfied), no one talks about the actual number (IT IS A BIG NO-NO). I know that I didn't answer many of the questions still remaining, but I thought I would share my experience thus far.

"Personally, I appreciate the nondisclosure rule. I work with a lot of people I consider my good friends, and it would likely cause rivalry and bitterness if we all compared salaries."

Personally, I like working in my office knowing that I'm getting paid below market with no bonus, and thinking that the guy to my right and girl to my left, who are both leaving before me, are getting paid more than me...but they just don't want to hurt my fragile fragile feelings. I love Jones Day.

I'm an associate at JD DC, and second those who say they've never heard of anyone getting a bonus in DC, including extremely deserving associates. I knew NY got them, but had no idea they were (sometimes) paid in Chicago and Dallas. Why not DC??

That said, I do like working here, and I don't generally have a problem with the confidential salaries or with telling interviewees the same thing. It is nicer to be at a Midwestern firm in DC than at a NY-based firm in DC - much better culture to go along with the same top clients and matters. And like 4:06 said, I'm making more than my parents have made after 30 years in the workforce. I'm paid very well even without a bonus, and definitely don't pretend I'm entitled to more.

"This last year I billed over 2000 hours. Like others, I cannot give the actual number, but I will tell you that it was slightly less than Kirkland Chicago"

No offense, but I seriously doubt that. I think you meant to say "vastly less."

I am an associate in NY (midlevel) and get paid above market. I have been received a market bonus every year since I started (as have ALL of my immediate friends) and some of us also receive above-market salary. All for billing around 2000 hours.

I would not trade that in the world to work at Skadden, DPW or any of the other lockstep firms. I simply work less hours than them and make more money. Case closed.

Good for you JD NY.

Associate morale in the DC office is at an all-time low.