Time for Winston Women To Go Burqa Shopping?
Although many tipsters emailed us about it, we never wrote about this buzz-generating Wall Street Journal article, reporting on how many older lawyers are displeased by the overly informal, even sloppy attire of their younger colleagues. We didn't write about it earlier because we felt preempted: the piece received lots of online attention, from such widely read outlets as the ABA Journal and the WSJ Law Blog, where it generated heavy comment traffic.
But now we have a new angle on it. Focus on these portions of Christina Binkley's WSJ article:
[Winston & Strawn D.C. managing partner Thomas Mills] says he is partial to well-fitted Brioni suits for himself. He notes that the going rate for new associates in New York, Los Angeles and Washington is $160,000 a year -- enough to buy suits while paying down school loans. Yet all too often, associates show up at work in jeans -- attire that he doesn't condone "unless it's moving day."Winston & Strawn brought in a personal shopper from a local department store last year to address associates on how to shop and dress for work. Mr. Mills says that when some associates do make an effort to dress up, they seem to base their look on Hollywood. "You get the TV-woman lawyer look with skirts 12 inches above the knee and very tight blouses," he says. "They have trouble sitting and getting into taxis."
These remarks apparently didn't go over too well back at Winston:
W&S DC office's managing partner comes off as a total a**. His comments re: his custom suits are one thing. But his comments re: the way women in the office dress have created a stir....People are seriously pissed, particularly the women. Man comes off as a total pig.... Read the article, you'll see why.
This is prime ATL material. Firm has called impromptu associates meeting for 9:30 Monday, no topic given. But the guess is it is damage control.
The guess was correct. More about the meeting, after the jump.
One reader of the piece was surprised by Tom Mills's quotes:
surprised you didn't have anything on this. what about the cadwalader girl getting quoted as saying it's "hard" to put on a suit, or cadwalader and winston/strawn coming off sounding like such hardasses - I know cadwalader doesn't care about recruiting (see, e.g., layoffs), but do winston strawn and manatt phelps really want to come off sounding so uncool?(also, what about the partner at manatt admitting she gave an assignment to a less qualified associate because she thought he was prettier?!)
Okay, so back to Winston & Strawn. On the Monday morning after the article appeared, the firm's Washington office held a meeting about the kerfuffle:
On Monday morning, a meeting was held at which managing partner Tom Mills [pictured] apologized to all the associates. He said his remarks were taken out of context. He asked for a show of hands as to who was offended by his remarks -- and a number of female associates actually raised their hands.Mills explained that he wasn't referring to Winston associates (who can NEVER wear jeans). He was merely saying that lawyers need to dress in a manner that clients will view as appropriate.
From a more supportive source:
At the meeting, Mills apologized for what was said, explained that he was taken out of context by the reporter, and emphasized that he was absolutely not referring to any Winston attorneys in his quotes.For what it's worth, I believe that everyone should know that the DC office in general -- and Tom Mills in particular -- has an outstanding commitment to diversity. By reputation, Mills is tremendously loyal to his people, and I think everyone should take him at his word that he did not mean to be quoted this way and regrets what has happened. Mills has spent years working to improve diversity, and I believe that he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.
We don't think Thomas Mills has anything to apologize for. We kinda love old-school white guys. And we don't have too much sympathy for lawyers complaining about overly formal attire. Isn't part of the fun of practicing law the ability to play dress up?
When you spend twelve hours a day reviewing documents in a windowless conference room, or serving as some partner's word-processing bitch, you may not feel like a lawyer. But if you dress up in a fancy suit, at least you get to look like one!
Law Without Suits: New Hires Flout Tradition [Wall Street Journal]
Are Associates too Freewheeling With Fashion? [WSJ Law Blog]
'Abysmal' Associate Attire Leads to Fashion Counseling [ABA Journal]
(220)
What a tool! To add insult to injury, he asks for a show of hands of those offended?! He should be ousted.
Maybe I'm just a little out of it, but I don't see anything wrong with his comments. I'm so sick of these absurd forced public apologies.
Oh yeah - just look at his picture and you can understand exactly how old Mills-ey operates! If you wiki the definition of "crusty" he is there.
He looks like he came straight from central casting.
@ $160k/yr - you can start off at a minimum at brooks brothers - from here you move up. No matter what you pick, or they pick for you, it will fit like a suit should and you won't look like you're getting dressed to go to the Source Awards.
Just what is wrong with telling your female attorneys to stop dressing like sluts? If I'm a client and am greeted by an attorney with something too revealing on, I'd screw her brains out and then run to a different law firm.
Hey, is this new "Eli Stone" show basically just "Ally McBeal" all over again? She hallucinates and sees an animated dancing baby and he hallucinates and sees George Michael. lame.
as a future client I would like to see more short skirts ... preferably with no panties... on my counsel and opposing counsel. This guy is out of touch with reality.
Ha! It's funny because black people go to the Source Awards!
As for the "fitted Brioni suits" issue - yeah, $160k a year is enough to afford a suit or two. But if you're supporting a (small) family, paying $1000/month in loans and $2600/month in rent and utilities, there isn't a whole lot of room in a bi-weekly $3000 (after deductions) paycheck for a $2000 suit. Are these partners really that ignorant of the lives of junior associates?
Case in point: a friend's summer class a couple years ago was treated to a presentation by a firm financial consultant, who advised the young 'uns of the financial benefits of buying an apartment rather than renting upon graduation. When asked how they should find the money for a 20% (or even 10%) down-payment on a $300k condo, the guy patiently offered, "Maybe now's the time to ask Mom and Dad for that present?"
Bitch, if I had a mommy and daddy who could cut me a check for $60k as a "present," do you think I'd be working here?
The problem wasn't his comments. The problem is the ill-defined nature of "business casual" attire. Somewhere between the gray suit and white shirt that is business, and the jeans and t-shirt that is casual, there exists a form of dress that must be constantly and consistently updated and refreshed. Even when employers explicitly dictate what constitutes "business casual," the mere term revives ambiguity. So you'll get the guys in jeans that "look" dressy. And you'll get the girls in skirts that "flirt" with the boundary of what is appropriate in the workplace.
It was a simpler time when all you needed to do to look professional was to don your traditional 2 piece suit (or pant suit, jacket, blouse, etc). There's something to be said for the clarity and consistency. There's also something to be said for coming off as a professional adviser to your client. Let's face it, even if your client is wearing a polo shirt, you loose a little of the professional panache when you follow suit.
All puns intended.
First thing I was told in business school was, "dress for the job you want." So, if you dress like a slob or a slut, you obv want to be demoted to paralegal.
When I was a middle schooler I whined about dress codes too. Can we all grow up and realize fashion isn't a fundamental right?
1:06: Truer words never spoken. A partner at my (thank God) former firm made the associates feel greedy and guilty for expecting bonuses. Hypocritical ass. Also, don't we all have more than one suit? I only had three or four suits (let's be honest - when was I ever going to court or meeting a client?), but $6000 to spend solely on suits (not dry cleaning, not shoes, etc.) is a pretty penny during one's first year.
When I was a middle schooler I whined about dress codes too. Can we all grow up and realize fashion isn't a fundamental right?
01:06 PM: 300k condos? Where do you live? Kansas?
business - suit and tie
business casual - slacks (not khakis), button down shirt (with sleeves), no tie, slip on loafers acceptable
casual - khakis and golf shirt (a nice one, not the one you would wear on saturday to a bbq) and NEVER JEANS
hillbilly - jeans and t-shirt
please feel free to post this around your office if people need help
Business casual is for wimps. All firms should be business dress. Anything else is b-team.
And don't wear brooks brothers unless you're over 40 and live in the suburbs.
Nope, Brooklyn - the example was from Boston. I'm not even thinking about buying, my point was that it was ridiculous, even if you're looking for a crappy apartment near Boston, let alone New York or SF.
I'm sure it was done by mistake, but when people write "loose" when they mean to write "lose", it really bugs me.
Add the dry cleaning bill and the prices start to add up. (Yes, I know you don't take your suits to the cleaners more than a few times a year, but you sometimes have to get them pressed, and sometimes you spill your soup.)
Sure, the guy in the $3000 Brioni suit is going to apologize to the female associates. COME ON!
"Don't take your suits to the cleaners more than a few times a year"????!!!!!
Gross.
1:15, do you have a female equivalent? Because "business causal" is pretty easy for guys. I'm not sure what 1:08's talking about with guys in "dressy" jeans who think they're appropriate in an office.
Right on 1:24. Dry clean those things after every wearing.
Stop with all the whining. You can get a decent suit at Macy's for about $350. There's always a sale on holidays. Get two or three suits and then pick up a few sport coats and you're set. Don't get all flashy either: plain solid colors are all you need. The flair is all in the tie. For all those bitching about buying work attire, I'm curious what the rest of your wardrobe looks like.
I understand that Mills seems to be a little out of touch with reality re: how much associates can spend on clothing for work, but I don't see how his comments re: dressing inappropriately are in any way offensive. Isn't it patently obvious that attorneys (male or female) who want to be taken seriously should dress professionally? And for women, doesn't that obviously mean not wearing outfits that are so short and tight that they interfere with their ability to do something basic like exit a cab without flashing someone?
120: You, my friend, are AWESOME!
Brioni custom is what Trump wears.....$5k to start minimum. 1:24, you should not dry clean a quality suit all that often because of the harsh chemicals used however it is appropriate to steam clean after each wearing and spot clean as needed.
I see nothing wrogn with enforcing a dress-code of some kind, younger associates might actually benefit from giving off a more prof. vibe, there are plenty of designers who make current dress fashions without resorting to Brooks Bros. and many that cost a hell of a lot less than Brioni. I typcially wear a dress shirt/dress slacks to work...rarely put on a tie and do wear jeans on Fridays.
Telling a first year to buy an apartment is ridiculous, the $ for a down payment takes a while to accumulate, the attrition rate at big $ firms is high and ideally one should experience living somewhere before buying. If anything they should tell you to hoarde your $$ and invest it so you can leave faster.
Gob Bluth (aka 1:20)
You just made my week! Thank you
You can get a decent suit at Macy's for $350?
Haha. I'm a Century 21 man myself.
thank you, GOB at 1:20. I've missed you.
Geez, I think that I see panties in that open-thigh thing Calista has on. She looked decent back then before she dropped to 85 lbs and starting dating Indiana Jones. I know that the dress was part of the point of that whole show, and that she is sticking her leg out to show thigh like she is wearing a bikini, but that DVD cover is still absurd!
I don't work at Winston, but I rarely see associates dressing inappropriately. And, even if they are, why talk about it in a news article? Shouldn't a partner at a law firm (even someone old school) know better than to talk about how women dress, or black people talk or how whatever other group does whatever thing? Once you start delving into stereotypes or making generalizations about these kinds of things, you've got to be very careful.
1:38 Why does it matter? You wouldn't know.
I'll wear a suit if the powers that be vow to never make me work past the time of night when the building's A/C shuts down.
You f-ing firm types are unbelievable. Somehow, every first year prosecutor and public defender finds a way to buy enough suits for every day of the week. Just because you were too afraid of the courtroom to become a real lawyer doesn't mean you should whine about the partners that at least want your document-reviewing asses to dress like one.
1:38,
Have you ever shopped for a suit at Macy's? If not, STFU. If you want to spend a couple of grand on a suit, then do so, but just don't bitch about not being able to afford one when there are plenty of affordable options.
as a junior transactional attorney, i have zero in-person client contact. there is absolutely no reason i should not be able to wear nice jeans to work, at a minimum on fridays.
also, i really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 designer jeans.
1:19(1) - It was a pun. Read all the way to the end. Then, get a more stressful job so you'll have something serious to be bugged about.
1:32 - A $350 suit looks cheap no matter what. I hope you don't practice in NYC. Maybe that is acceptable in Kansas.
Also - I think it makes sense that if you summer somewhere paying $3K/week that you should take one week's pay and spend it on some decent clothes.
HE SHOULD ALSO "WEIGH IN" ON HOW ASSOCIATES -- AND FEMALE ASSOCIATES IN PARTICULAR -- HAVE LET THEIR WEIGHT BALLON RELATIVE TO HIS MASTURBATORY IDEAL.
1:46(3) - No comma after the 1:38. Haven't gotten to that in school yet? Maybe your district does puntuation in high school.
1:49(1): What is the pun? Can you explain it to me? Also, the fact that all (or almost all) of the other puns are in quotation marks and "loose" was not seems to indicate that "loose" was not intended as a pun. But maybe I'm wrong. Enlighten me.
Also, for those of you in NYC, Saks has a pretty sweet sale going on right now. Zegna shirts 1/2 off and some decent (Hickey, etc.) suits at 25% off. At least it was still going this weekend.
Thomas Pink rocks.
First, keep in shape. No quality of clothing and no degree of tailoring can make a fat piece of trash look professionally dressed.
Second, have your suits and shirts properly fitted to you. Not by the mass production “tailors” at your clothing store, but by someone who knows what they’re doing. They will cost money–pay it gladly.
Third, wear your suit to the office. You needn’t wear your tie with it, just keep those at the office in case you need to wear one.
Fourth, once at the office, take off that oppressive suit jacket–the jacket will thank you for reducing its wrinkles anyway.
And, hey presto!, you’re in slacks and a button down shirt, both of which should be about as comfortable as you can get. 30 seconds to put on your jacket, a minute or two with the tie, and you’re in full bore business attire.
1:50 - I know you're a big-swinging dick lawyer, but do you really think a first year associate should spend $1,500 suit at Hickey Freeman, $325 for a shirt and $100 for a tie at Thomas Pink, and $475 for a pair of shoes at Allen Edmunds? That is the definition of breaking the bank for someone who's take home is only $6,000 grand a month. One should not spend almost half of their monthly salary on one outfit. And if you get a suit at a nice department store, and have it tailored correctly, you will look fine and most people will not be able to tell the difference. Whether you are in Kansas or Manhattan.
1:53(1),
You are a shit. First, it is perfectly acceptable to put a comma after an identifier. Second, only a shit head would even bother to make grammar comments on a blog. Third, only a dumb shit head would give incorrect grammar advice on a blog.
Where can one purchase these mythical $3,000 Brioni suits? My last MTM Brioni sport coat was over four grand.
One thing about business casual, if you're not wearing a jacket the fit of the shirt becomes much more noticeable and important. Custom shirts are de rigueur.
01:06 PM, WAS THE OTHER GUY/GIRL SAYING THAT BLACK PEOPLE (WHO ARE THE MAIN ATTENDEES AT THE SOURCE AWARDS) DRESS BADLY? IF SO, THAT'S CRAP! THEY DRESS NO WORSE THAN ATTENDEES AT THE CMA'S (COUNTRY MUSIC AWARDS), MOSTLY WHITE PEOPLE.
IN THE NAME OF OBAMA, WHY NOT PICK AN AWARDS SHOW WITH LOTS OF BADLY DRESSED BLACK AND WHITE PARTICIPANTS -- THE GRAMMY’S.
AFTER ALL, THIS ISN'T ABOUT BLACK AGAINST WHITE OR EVEN THE PRESENT VS. THE FUTURE; IT'S ABOUT BAD DRESS VS. GOOD DRESS.
YES WE CAN!
1:47 Agreed. EVERYONE should be giving you shit for wearing (actually, buying) $300 jeans.
Any advice on stores/brands for women to try for suits?
"Business casual" is a difficult line for female associates. If you really follow the implicit dress code, it means having to wear a white/black/blue/gray shirt and black/gray pencil skirt/dress pants everyday. Most female associates who want to break the mold without being inappropriate end up wearing boxy sweaters and ill-fitting pants. I don't know why female associates can't experiment with colors/patterns and read a fashion magazine instead of cases once a while. "Business casual" does not have to be boring and make women look like men.
Ms. Christina Binkley sure loves the word sartorial. It appears no less than 3 times in the article. I floccinaucinihilipilificate her thesaurus and adviser her to defenestrate it immediately.
Anyone ever hear of Dress-up Thursdays--a marketing gimmick thought up by the professional attire industry to maintain profits in our increasingly casual Dress-down Fridays society?
Me neither.
err... that should read "advise her"
01:06 PM, WAS THE OTHER GUY/GIRL SAYING THAT BLACK PEOPLE (WHO ARE THE MAIN ATTENDEES AT THE SOURCE AWARDS) DRESS BADLY? IF SO, THAT'S CRAP! THEY DRESS NO WORSE THAN ATTENDEES AT THE CMA'S (COUNTRY MUSIC AWARDS), MOSTLY WHITE PEOPLE.
IN THE NAME OF OBAMA, WHY NOT PICK AN AWARDS SHOW WITH LOTS OF BADLY DRESSED BLACK AND WHITE PARTICIPANTS -- THE GRAMMY’S.
AFTER ALL, THIS ISN'T ABOUT BLACK AGAINST WHITE OR EVEN THE PRESENT VS. THE FUTURE; IT'S ABOUT BAD DRESS VS. GOOD DRESS.
YES WE CAN!
I really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 Rbk EDGE New York Rangers Authentic Home Jersey.
1:47 Agreed. EVERYONE should be giving you shit for wearing (actually, buying) $300 jeans.
"Custom shirts are de rigueur."
You people are crazy. There is no way junior asocaites should feel that they must spend this kind of money on clothes. Looking neat and professional does not require spending thousands of dollars.
I call b.s. on the 'taken out of context' excuse.
Why the hell would the CWT associate say that? And let her name be used? Career suicide? That wouldn't be hard at CWT.
4k for a sport coat? Unless you're on TV or in the movies, that's just plain carzy. I would imagine a 4k sport coat is the equivalent to a 50 y/o's new sports car . . . a really expensive way to overcompensate for physical shortcomings.
button down = type of collar
Hi!
I hate the NFL's policy regarding coach-wear. Come on Belichick, you earn millions a year-how do you continue to wear that frumpy cut off hoodie on national TV? I'm glad you really dressed up for the superbowl by switching to red.
And then the NFL has the nerve to fine the coaches who try to class up the joint by wearing suits. Isn't this a professional league? Didn't it start out with coaches wearing suits on gameday? Maybe they don't want to alienate Joe Blow watching on TV?
That's why me likes basketballs adherence to professional dress.
Anyone ever hear of Dress-up Thursdays--a marketing gimmick thought up by the professional attire industry to maintain profits in our increasingly casual Dress-down Fridays society?
Me neither.
I really do think that women have it a lot harder with respect to dress codes, and on top of that, fewer business attire choices.
(2:04): you must be a heterosexual man, as any well-bred homo male or female knows that the jeans you wear in public should be a designer brand that costs no less than $200 a pair.
What does "commitment to diversity" have to do with work attire?
Did anyone see the Louisville / Georgetown game on Saturday? What was with Louisville's coach changing clothes at halftime?
Looks like Sara Shikhman, the 26-year-old legal associate at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP who said "Getting up in the morning and putting on a suit is hard," is no longer at the firm.
At least, she's not listed as belonging to the firm.
My firm has "Pimp suit" Mondays. It's outta sight!
Ya! I'm a cop you idiot! I'm going to ask you some questions and I want them answered immediately! Who is your daddy and what does he do?
What's your dog's name? (Max) How's Wolfy--I can hear him barking? (Wolfy's just fine dear.)
Both your foster parents are dead.
I don't get why he's being criticized. He's not talking about women lookng femenine. He's talking about women dressing like my firm's summer clerk this past year who barely covered her ass. No one takes you seriously as a lawyer if they think of you as a piece of meat. It might be their problem for not being able to look past your rack, but it's an avoidable problem if you could only button one more button and hide your bra.
Can someone explain to me why attractive female associates' dressing in classy but somewhat provocative outfits, if they so choose, is a bad thing for anyone? I haven't heard a good response yet. We're all well aware that people are sexual beings; they think about it a lot. Women (at least all the women I know) often dress with sexual attractiveness in mind; heterosexual men (and often homosexual men too, in an aesthetic sort of way) usually appreciate it. What's the problem?
Does anyone think female attorneys legitimately should wear the skirts described? This shit is not offensive. What a bunch of candy-asses.
Aren't we missing the real story? Lat, please interview Ms. Arnold. Actually, I think you could safely devote a week or two.
http://www.rosemariearnold.com/
From the WSJ story linked above:
Trial attorney Rosemarie Arnold says young lawyers need to learn that "courtroom drama is all about control." Ms. Arnold represented Joran van der Sloot, one of three men who were with student Natalee Holloway before she disappeared in Aruba. With courtroom appearances in mind, Ms. Arnold spends $150,000 a year on clothes, she estimates. She is partial to Gucci and Dolce & Gabbana in particular and black suits in general.
"Trying a case is like a movie," Ms. Arnold says. "Wardrobe is everything."
I love the douchey, pretentious, elitist comments relating to $350 dollar suits. No one sees the goddamn tag on your suit!!! If you aren't built like quasimodo, you can find some very nice looking suits, on sale, in the $300 range (macy's, century21, etc...).
You can get your $3000 suit, and sit there all smug, doing doc review, where no one to see you or your tag. I'll be enjoying the extra $2700 in my pocket, and still being more successful because I give a crap about my work product!
Has no one seen American Psycho???
for all the bitching whiners...
stump up the $3K for a plane ticket, (ie) save some money on our "measly" salary and hop a plane to China, vietnam, thailand etc. then go crazy... and buy nothing but fitted suits that look better than the shit Brioni and Loro Piana make (if Brioni is $5K then you paid about $700 above the better quality Loro Piana, and $4800 more than better quality Chinese suits.) Then when a d*ouche partner starts talking about how you look, tell him ask him if he wears nothing but fitted suits, and if not to go ...
All women should dress in a way that lets men know if the curtains match the drapes.
2:18 - I think most will generally agree that is correct. What is concerning is that for some reason the general default seems to run towards "whore."
1:47-
I'd be giving you sh*t for wearing $300 designer jeans too. That's just plain stupid.
For the record, the price of the suit doesn't necessarily say anything about how good it looks. In my law school days I scored some nice suits from United Colors of Benetton that, because I know how to get a suit tailored properly, will make me look better than some of you ignorant schmucks will ever look in more expensive things. Also, I look WAY better than you do in more expensive things.
I'd rather wears suits to work but i'd be ostracized (biglaw NY) by other associates, even though its what most partners wear.
2:25 -- we don't need to see the tag on your suit to know that it is cheap.
Of course, lesser suits come in handy when it rains/snows/sleets, so knock yourself out.
I'd rather wears suits to work but i'd be ostracized (biglaw NY) by other associates, even though its what most partners wear.
Women wearing provocative clothing helps everyone. It makes the senior partners notice the junior associate women and nothing ushers the junior associate men into the old boys club faster than catching the partner's eye and sharing a smile (and keeping your mouth closed) when a hot paralegal or whatever walks by.
I live in the American Gardens building on West 81st Street. I am 21 years old. In the morning if my face is a little puffy, I apply an ice pack while doing crunches. I can do 1,000 now. [He] and I have the same barber, but I have a slightly better haircut. OH MY GOD!!! Is that a watermark!
Oh, and for anyone who hasn't used Hong Kong Tailors -- they are amazing.
Who only pays $1000/month in loans? I'm at close to twice that amount -- and that's when I'm only paying my minimum (on the 30 year plan, natch).
Hong Kong is where it's at. Get a whole wardrobe for the price of 1 Brioni.
Awesome post 2:10-
"I really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 Rbk EDGE New York Rangers Authentic Home Jersey."
Nothing says style like a faux lace-up collar. I think all associates should have an "A" sewn on to the right breast of their suits. Maybe I can get a throwback 3-piece plaid suit at Mitchell and Ness with the 100 yr anniversary of Cadwalader patch.
Macy's suits really don't hold up well after a few dry cleanings.
What are the good New York tailors? (good as in associates can afford a few of them; not great as in costs 5K+ per suit)
I love it when our paralegal/law clerk wears here form fitting button-up oxfords, and the pearls...oh my God. boy would I giver her some of 2:33, JK.
If it doesn't have to be dry cleaned, it isn't business casual.
Linus in SOHO on Spring and W Broadway. Great $400+ suits, $90 shirts and $55 ties.
No one has mentioned that shoes are BY FAR the most important ingredient. Shoes say it all. Cheap shoes make a $2000 suit look like it is from Target.
I went to the meeting and read the article. Bottom line: Tom should not have had the conversation he had with the reporter at all. At the meeting he explained how he was misquoted, and noted that some of his most egregious statements were actually examples of things that he said Winston did not have to deal with. Tom made a mistake and he publicly apologized. I think most associates have moved on.
Hey QUESTION, the reason we don't want women wearing revealing clothes is that then we, as men, can't help but look at their legs. Then the next thing you know she's telling all the other women in the office that you are a creeper.
Did Sara Shikhman get fired??? If not, she should be.
i really dont want to spend my day thinking about bending the associate next door over the copy machine - id rather just do it to my secretary and forget about the chick next door.
can we get a list of firms that are business-dress and not business-casual so I can pick which one to lateral to?
Don't get too caught up in the cost of the suit. What you really need to spend your money on is the tailoring. Allowing some random dickwad at Macy's or Brooks Brothers or most alterations places to mess with your suit will give you no chance to look good.
CSM and WLRK are still business formal. Also Jones Day, if we're counting TTTs.
anyone got links to Heath Ledger autopsy photos?
for any man who has ever wondered why women hate men, it is because of the comments on this post.
Nothing wrong with hot females dressing provacatively. I love it. Just don't expect to be taken seriously as a lawyer when you do. You can decide to advance by being flaunting your smoking hot body or by being considered a great lawyer, but not both. A hot chick in a meeting is eye candy, no matter how smart she is. That's just how it is. It's not that I want to spend that time mentally undressing you. It's just that I can't help it. I'm a guy, after all.
The whining about clothing costs here is absurd. You can get Brooks Brothers suits for 40% off during their semi-annual sale, and that's a hell of a suit for $400-$500. Obviously, they are not the best of the best, but they're more than adequate and a huge step above Macy's. Methinks anyone making $160k or more can easily afford one or two.
NOT cool putting links to porn sites. . .
forget macys. just go jos bank for a decent suit. the sig gold suits always go on sale for under $500, and they're a solid entry-level suit.
Baker & McKenzie is business casual 24/7 and sometimes jeans on friday. Business casual is defined in the attorney manual and specifically includes "golf shirts".
Dress Code for Ladies:
Business: Skirt Suit (below knees); neutral color blouse.
Business Casual: lose the jacket above, may substitute suit pants
Casual: suit pants, blouse
Hillbilly: dress like your secretary
Night at Club: dress like your paralegal
why are lawyers such crybabies...lol@those stupid girls actually raising their hands too
1:47 = money does not equal class, are you from brooklyn? Do you have a blowout? Do you spray tan or bake tan?
Do you ever wonder why you look at your bank account statement and it doesn't go up despite earning over $200K/year? Do you ever wonder why you can't pay off your credit card bills despite earning over $200K/year? Do you ever wonder if you will ever be able to afford a down payment on a nice house in the burbs/NYC apartment?
It might be because you only feel good about yourself if the clothes that you are wearing = a weekly paycheck. It's hard to pay down loans, save money, etc. when you do that.
Now you might respond that there are people out there who can tell the difference between your amazing clothing and the rest of us plebs who buy our clothing at Macy's/Sak's etc. You might even look down at our poor judgement. Unfortunately, most of us don't care and prefer to have the other finer things in life (i.e. - nice car, nice house, etc.) while dressing moderately well, but not at the height of fashion.
Now, if you are trust fund baby, spend away...have some fun and spur the economy. But the rest of you who need to spend $3000 on a suit to feel as if it is up to par, $200 on a shirt and $350 on a pair of pants...you need a little help.
You probably bought Jordan's when you were a kid thinking that it would turn your two-left-feet-behind into a baller. Guess what, the sneakers didn't help, and the clothes may make you look smart...but that is as far as they can help.
Oh - and Century 21 does have the BEST quality suits at amazing prices. That is where the smart money is at...
asking them to raise their hands was brilliant. Now he knows who to fire because they are the same bitches who will sue for sexual harassment when they show up in cloths that are to tight and someone looks at them
3:14 - Agreed.
Just as an example, someone mentioned Thomas Pink for shirts and ties. Pink has some great shirts. I have two of them. But the fact is they cost 3x as much as Brooks Bros ($180 for Pink vs. $67 for Brooks Bros .. factoring in tax on $180 it's roughly 3x).
It makes sense to have maybe one or two really good suits ... the others can be in the $300-$500 range.
Same with shirts, pants, shoes, etc. That way you have a good overall wardrobe, can look amazing if needed, and don't go broke.
Jos A. Bank is garbage, plain and simple. Ever wonder why their shit is constantly "on sale"? Because no one will pay anything close to the "list" price for that trash. The NY AG actually sued them for deceptive advertising practices and the company caved right away. They were caught red-handed and they knew it. What amazes me is that they went right back to the same BS ad campaigns. I have long believed there is a great opportunity for an enterprising consumer class action lawyer there. But the main point is the clothes are rags.
I think a woman in a burqa head piece and a tiny, short skirt would be a good compromise...
3:17, why don't you quit your miserable job and get rich as a plaintiffs' sexual harassment lawyers? Since you seem to think that your secretary can sue you for millions because you can't keep your eyes off her ass. Go ahead. It's easy. You want to get rich, don't you?
Discount stores like century 21 and Marshall's frequently have insane sales on really good suits (assuming you can find your size). e.g. Hugo Boss suit for $200.
Seriously, you can get great suits custom made from the same fabric in BKK and HK for about 1/5-1/10 of the price of something off the rack. The plane ticket there is barely over $1k.
But this guy has a point, most of the chicks rocking those slutty mcbeal suits have no business squeezing into them. Legs like two overstuffed sausages stuffed into a second casing. Ew.
3:42
but you would end up needing to stay in BKK or HK for like 3 weeks or come home and just go back (assuming they get the suit right the first time, more if they don't)
Jebus Christ. Fuck but I am glad I don't live with the uptight bitches on the east coast.
I wear jeans to my office all the time (and no, I'm not at Quinn -- just a west coast-based midlaw (160 scale)). No one gives a fuck about 5k suits or some other bullshit. Clients included. Half the time when I meet with clients they're less dressed up than I am, and I am not a dress-up person. Even the clients have casual Fridays.
Also, the boomer partners I work for are always comparing technogeek phones and such. I have yet to hear anyone say much about a watch, other than maybe needing a new battery. Watches are boring. I'd rather be hip than moldy. You can keep your east coast snootiness and the clothing that you waste your money on.
Seriously, there is something wrong with people who think that blowing 5 Gs on a fucking piece of clothing is more important than delivering quality work. People like this highlight the WORST that America has to offer. I mean, talk about wasting money. There are so many things you could get for five thousand dollars that are way more important and useful than a stupid suit.
These losers are trumped-up Ladies Who Lunch. They're more concerned about how much you spent on your Prada purse than on how your family's doing. Gross.
HK suits will have lead or some toxic shit in them. and the whole supporting a sweatshop thing.