Nationwide Layoff Watch: Thelen Reid Brown Raysman & Steiner
The rumor making the rounds of lawyer and staff layoffs at Thelen Reid Brown Raysman & Steiner is true. We just spoke to Thelen’s co-chair, Stephen V. O’Neal, who provided confirmation and details.
The firm is in the process of laying off 26 associates and 85 staff members, on a firm-wide basis, “in response to recessionary pressures.” (Unlike President Bush, Mr. O’Neal was not afraid to use the “r” word.) Thelen has approximately 600 lawyers, per its website, so the cuts amount to roughly 4 percent of total headcount.
With respect to the location of the affected lawyers, the cuts affected all major offices. With respect to seniority — one source told us that some first- and second-year associates were fired — Mr. O’Neal said that “some were fairly junior, and some more senior.”
In terms of practice areas, Mr. O’Neal said the layoffs were spread out among groups, but with “some areas more impacted than others,” including certain parts of capital markets and cap-markets-related real estate work. He noted that other practice areas are “thriving and increasing in scope,” including renewable energy, cross-border M&A, China practice, litigation, and workouts / bankruptcy.
With respect to staff layoffs, Mr. O’Neal explained that they are due in part to the economic climate, but in part due to post-merger staff redundancies. The merger of Thelen Reid and Brown Raysman took place in late 2006, making the consolidated firm a little over a year old. But the firm did not do much cutting of staff in 2007.
Last year “was not a year when we tried to make deep cutbacks in anything, even though we had combined two good-sized firms,” explained Mr. O’Neal. “It was a year of building, coordinating, and consolidating. We wanted to understand how best to organize this new entity.” Now that the firm has a better understanding of its staffing needs, and is in the process of consolidating multiple offices in the same cities (e.g., New York), it is reducing staff redundancies.
As for associate severance packages, Mr. O’Neal stated that firm provided a “market-level” package. We floated three to four months as our understanding of market, and he said that the firm is “in that ballpark.”
“We are anticipating a profitable 2008,” said Mr. O’Neal. “We are being prudent businesspeople, and when you are dealing with recessionary pressures, you adjust your business so you will have — and maintain — a strong level of profitability, notwithstanding those pressures.”
We thank the firm for the information and candor with respect to the layoffs (i.e., not casting these departures as “performance-based”). If you have more information, feel free to email us.
Updates: A few additional nuggets:
1. As noted in the comments, total headcount includes partners and counsel, so the percentage of associates laid off is higher than 4 percent. Some of you suggest it’s around 10 percent.2. We’re a little annoyed at Legal Pad for the lack of an ATL shout-out — in both the blogosphere and the MSM, it’s proper form to credit and/or link to the source that breaks a story first (even if you were working on the same story too) — but we’ll link to them anyway.
They have more on the Thelen layoffs here. Much of the info in their post appeared previously in ours, but they do add that the firm “is also trimming its summer program from eleven to eight weeks and is pushing the start date for first-years from September to January.”
3. A source at the firm tells us that the severance packages were in the two- to three-month range.
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of layoffs (scroll down)




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sucks - that's a lot of people.
Bout time
Bout time...first
Have to give credit to the firm for professionally explaining its reasons to make cuts but it is probably not much solace for the staff and associates looking for jobs.
Laying off first- and second-year associates? What a crappy place! Good luck recruiting.
They have 234 associates on their website right now. They canned over 10%. Nice.
Agreed with 6:06. Such is life. Good for them for being professional about it.
what goes around comes around.
This is what happens when you pay people fresh out of law school with no real lawyering skills 160K- the moment a downturn hits you need to cut them loose... The big salaries require constant production at an exceedingly high volume and can't be sustained for long. You can only bill so much on the menial non-substantive paper shuffling low level associates do..
"what goes around comes around.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 19, 2008 06:24 PM "
What does that mean? Some good people were let go today. This is not a happy day here.
Did they get any severance? Permission to use the office to look for new work?
most of thelen jumped ship to winston over a year ago.
Sinking Ship?
If you are still at Thelen, you better dust off your resume. That place is going to be gone within a year. Partners are leaving left and right (both by force and by choice). Today's layoffs are only a temporary stopgap to delay the inevitable disbandment of the firm.
I love when the posts on this site are all calling for "blood in the water" or "sinking ships." When coupled with the persistent calls for "NYC to 190," its clear why people hate lawyers. If you're a headhunter making these posts, you are one step above a telemarketer (only because your job title sounds cooler). If you're an attorney for another law firm, shame on you for your schadenfraude. I'm very sympathetic to those at Thelen who lost their jobs.
NY to 190!
NY to 1 million!
"We anticipate a profitable 2008" - me too, if I cut my operating costs by say over 2.5 million in a matter of minutes and keep my profits the same.
Shame on Thelen! No doubt some of those associates turned down other offers on the basis the money was good at Thelen - A pox upon Thelen's house.
Can anyone confirm where the layoffs occurred? NY? LA? SF?
What's a Thelen?
7:44
A Thelen is a pedantic person who makes grammar related posts.
glad i didn't get a call-back from them...
If you couldn't get a callback from Thelen, you likely have bigger problems. It's not the most selective place.
I completely agree. I've showed several, non-lawyer friends posts on this site, and they've been disgusted by the general greed for higher bonuses and salaries, when we're already very well-compensated. The pettiness and raw ego needs of our profession are both alarming and pathetic.
NY to 200 thousand! Cadwalader to 200 attorneys!
To inevitable mr partner:
Why dont u do the menial work yourself then...how about this idea....spend less on dinners and summer programs, give younger associates real work...make the law firm industry more efficient , change the fee structure...o thats right why change the law firm into an efficient corporation instead cut people who have huge loans to pay off...get real
As more large firms layoff associates, other firms are going to be comfortable laying off also.
This may be the calm before the storm.
Instead of competing in raising associate salaries they are going to compete to see who can layoff the most associates in the harshest way possible.
Shudder.
LOL at these megafirms.
What!? Expecting a "profitable 2008"...yet it cuts 10% of its associates...including first and second years!!!???
If I were a young partner (or senior associate about to become partner), I would have serious misgivings about the firm's handling of things.
This MUST NOT be forgotten - - - top students at good schools and all students at top schools must shun Thelen.
NOTE TO ALL career services deans: this is a perfect time to earn your keep (i.e., beyond organizing OCI's and inviting students with grades below your school's cut-offs to come into the office to utilize your "resources" to find a crappy job). Any decent school's career office should henceforth be maintaing a List of Shame of all firms that have laid off associates, with specifics as to numbers, practice areas, class years, etc.
So far, it's been mostly marginal (at least nationally/internationally speaking; Dechert and EA are plenty major and prestigious in Philly and Boston, respectively) firms that have blatantly kicked associates to the curb. But people need to stop being so damn understanding of this shortsighted, greedy approach to managing law firms (lest the trend spread). If a firm is really feeling the economic downturn or credit crunch - such that it needs to trim a few million dollars in expenses - the proper course of action should be to lower partnership profits by a few million instead. Granted, partners shouldn't be thirlled about the prospect of earning $50-150k less this (and/or next) year, but by taking the high road they could proudly announce that THEY DIDN'T and THEY DON'T lay off associates when the going got/gets rough. Such an approach would shore up more "prestige" and morale than countless worthless gifts, lunches and surveys.
GC's: don't send any work to firms that are laying off associates - unless the firms show you that they have first taken steps to reduce partnership profits to the greatest extent possible.
P.S. Please, spare me the claim that firms need to boost, not reduce, PPP's, in order to attract rain=making new partners to join the firm. Any partner who has a big portable book or shows real promise of future rain should be able to avoid the type of firm that lays off associates.
P.S. II: Spare me the commentary as to "that's what happens when you pay kids $160k who can't do anything." Associates cover their comp, benefits and share of overhead in about eight months (of typical billing). That means associates at TR - all of whom were easily on track to surpass 2000 - more than paid for themselves by August 07', when this whole mess really hit hard. Does it not stand to reason that they would also pay their way (salary, benefits AND overheard) over the course of this entire year?
LOL at Seattle "biglaw."
9:32,
Luckily, top students at good schools already follow your advice and shun Thelen.
932=nutjob
Hey Profits, let's not go overboard here. Layoffs are bad but compare the plight of lawyers to the slaughter that's going on (and will accelerate) in wall st. We have it good.
936=managing partner at firm that has laid off, or is considering laying off, associaties.
932=someone clearly still in law school
9:32 sounds like a bitter betty to me
the blog legal pad is reporting that Thelen Reid is also cutting its summer associate program form 11 to 8 weeks and pushing the start date for first years from september to january. Any other firms pushing start dates already?
When will Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C announce they're firing associates?
Looks like Thelen only has 550 attorneys
http://www.thelen.com/index.cfm?section=Attorney&function=Search&showResults=1&browse=1
If you count all of the rows, I don't think it's even 550.
Can anyone back up what 9:49 is saying regarding the length of summer program and the first year start date? What's the real inside scoop here?
Thelen has 630 attorneys, so it didn't cut 10% of its attorneys. It's actually around 4%. It didn't affect DC. My guess is that it affected the NY offices the most as there are two offices in NY that are being consolidated into one after the merger of Thelen Reid and Brown Raysman in Dec. 2006. No word on whether Thelen cut 1st and 2nd year associates.
9:55, it's being reported on callaw dot com (part of the law dot com site) now. the article also says that at least one associate was cut from each office.
9:55
Its true, they are cutting three weeks off the start of the summer program and starting first years in January...at least January.
9:54 and 9:56, if you do a search for 'associates' only on their site, there are only 234. so it looks like it's 26/234.
10:11, Nalpdirectory.com says it has between 501-700. I just got 550 on their website. So it looks like it's around 5%.
Why would they start first years in January? That just decreases their morale and makes them feel inferior to first years at comparable firms starting in September. It also doesn't actually save the firm much in the scheme of things. Sure they save a few thousand bucks, but everyone has to start some time...this just puts the new associates one step behind. The classy thing to do would be for the partners to take the hit and start the first years off on the right foot.
"The classy thing to do would be for the partners to take the hit."
If they were classy, they wouldn't be partners.
If they were classy, they wouldn't be partners? Are you inferring that all partners have no class? That doesn't make sense at all. I agree with 10:19. Just suck it up and start 'em in September.
He's implying partners have no class. You're inferring it. Moron.
Wow, 10:38. That's mean. You lack class. And that's not inferred OR implied. It's OBVIOUS.
yeah - January start - wtf is that? - start em in sept., suck it up and fire one or two if that's what you need to do
Actually W&H, infer=to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises. So 10:19 wasn't incorrect, but imply works too!
But back to Thelen, what's the real benefit in cutting the summer program and starting the first years later on? It doesn't seem to save them as much as it potentially costs them.
Actually, what I said is a direct (abet conditional) statement that all partners have no class (though obviously not that all those without class are partners).
There's no inference or implication involved.
9:32 - What planet are you from?
Urging GCs so give a shit about associates is like asking banks to have sympathy for Jesse James. GCs have been at the vanguard of trying to halt associate pay increases and demanding more productivity from them. GCs want quality work product and they know junior associates are not the key elements of law firms. If anything, they want partners they work with to be well compensated to lend stability.
Rainmakers don't give a rat's ass about avoiding "the type of firm that lays off associates." If anything, they gravitate to that kind of firm because they know the firm will do whatever it takes to keep partner profits up.
Discussing associate profitability without considering that they don't have any work to do is too moronic to deserve a response.
You should really consider staying in school until you learn something. Posting idiocy on this blog wastes everyone's time and accomplishes nothing. The intellectual level of this blog is not particularly high, but most of the posters seem like Einstein compared to you.
10:25, it's again obvious that you have no class. And again, no inference or implication needed. Get out of your office and go for a little walk, it might help.
CWT laying off but not announcing.
Why do lawyers act like Frenchmen whenever law firms layoff associates? Ibanks, mine included, are laying off hundreds without batting an eye and you complain that a couple dozen attorneys get the axe?
Also, judging by many of the comments on this board, it's clear that the overwhelming majority of you do not give a crap about your peers. Considering how you all refer to your fellow law students and lawyers as "TTT" all day long, I'm fairly certain that if any of you had the power you would layoff A LOT more associates than these firms do.
You can call these law firms despicable but you people aren't much better.
Stop being so weak-minded and suck it up. The economy is in a bad spot and layoffs are inevitable. These law firms may not give a shit about their associates but you people don't give a shit about your fellow lawyers either.
New associates aren't profitable until they learn how to practice. Pushing their start date back 4 months won't help them learn what they need to know any sooner.
10:56, you're missing the one quasi-intelligent point 9:32 made: the effect this will have on recruiting.
Probably not an issue for Thelen, given that they can't tie their billing rates to the pedigree of their lawyers as they're not selective. But remember what happened to Shearman after the '01 layoffs--very few people with the means (school, grades, or both) to go elsewhere anywhere in the same league treated it like it was radioactive. And from what I saw at my LS (NYU), the ding SS took to reputation still hasn't been buffed out.
10:59, relax; I hardly agree with the literal truth of my own hyperbolic statement. I can't think of any partners at my firm (within my own practice area) that are totally without class; most are, in fact, pretty neat people.
However, in the narrow context of partners generally treating those in the associate ranks like FBUs, my statement holds true.
Can anyone on this board give a good reason for what might happen (if the rumors are true) to the summer associates and first-year associates? It's clearly not as nearly bad as getting laid off, but I also don't see an obvious benefit to the firm in cutting the summer program by 3 weeks and starting the new associates in January.
11:14: cutting the length of summer camp makes a fair amount of sense, I think. They cost the same as 1st yrs, but essentially do nothing and what they do firms frequently can't charge to clients (there are probably exceptions at firms like Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, etc.) because they take a day to produce pure crap. Moreover, most will be coming back to the firm if they get an offer--so it saves money with little down-side. The summers might grumble some, but this way they all get a job (or are at least more likely to do so--if they ding 20% of the summer class after cutting into their summer earnings, eh).
Here's the WORST PART. When you summer at Thelen, they explain that they don't pay market, but rather a "pay range" depending on performance, because that allows them to not overpay associates and thus avoid layoffs when other firms would have to take such measures. In sum they assure you that in exchnage for taking less money, your job is more secure.
RIDICULOUS. Lost MAJOR respect for the firm.
Fact is, this recession is going to be longer and deeper than the last one and all but the top tier firms will be forced to retrench somewhat. I wonder if this is what STB had in mind when they raised to 160: make followers who aren't in their league pay through the nose and then ruin their own reputations for top-tier recruiting purposes. That's devious, that's brilliant, that's BigLaw.
Hey Employed IBanker / 11:01
Go to graduate school
11:18: Those are good points about summer camp. But what about pushing back the first year associate start to January?? That doesn't seem as easy to rationalize.
CWT has laid off a lot more than just the 35, but not announcing
If what 11:22 says is correct, that's pretty bad.
11:26, I agree that moving first years back to January doesn't make the sort of simple economic sense that summer camp to fewer weeks does.
But if you want to wait and see how much worse this could get before you start recinding offers... then it makes more sense.
CWT to chapter 11
The DC office didn't lose any attorneys, they lost staff. All were women, most were minorities. One secretary had been with the firm for 15 years. FIFTEEN. They gave her 20 minutes to gather her things and then she was escorted out of the building. She was the first of many.
This was so much more than six-figure attorneys losing their jobs, it's about the loyal staff that had nothing to do with the firm's poor management and the ill-advised merger. While attorneys take their experience earned at one firm and jump to another on a regular basis, staff weather the years at one place thinking that their hard work is worth something, even if the firm can't bill for their time. They were the ones to pay for the greed of others.
A little known item: NY is looking to boost revenue by sub-leasing off parts of the DC office. They did it last year on a largely unused floor. This year they're getting bold: next month 4 senior partners on one of the busiest floors are among those who will be losing their offices so that their prime window offices can be leased out to an outside company. Altogether, 6 offices and two secretarial bays were thrown to the wolves.
Bit by bit, person by person, the firm is disappearing.
It'll be interesting to follow up with this one and see what Thelen actually ends up doing and if some other firms follow suit. 11:34, thanks for your insight. Also, I'm not sure 11:22 is precisely correct on the pay at Thelen. That may be worth looking into also.
11:22 is correct.
The rationale for pushing back first years to January is that they don't have to pay them for not working. In a normal year, billing doesn't count for first years until January and they are given a pass if they don't bill much because they have no work. They are taking away the three month free pass.
People expect layoffs at CWT. They laid off their managing partner. I assume he failed to meet his 3000 billable hour requirement. There must be a team of illuminati running that place that hires/fires as needed to maximize their profits.
As far as Thelen goes, recruiting is probably the least of their concerns right now. I would guess that the partnership is more worried about staying in business at all.
Sounds like we may start to see a NYC pay disparity again.
Not "NYC to 190k," but "Everywhere Else to Paycuts before layoffs!"
Everyone below the V-10 is screwed.
Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I think (perhaps against reason) that Thelen will be just fine. Hopefully they took the necessary drastic steps now so that they'll be out of the dark when other firms are forced to do the same thing later on. BigLaw is all about taking risks.
Oh yeah, 11:54, they took a big step to fix everything.
Just like the Fed, about 6 rate cuts ago.
11:55, there must be some rhyme and reason to the numbers here. Firing 26 associates and 85 staff members is a lot of people and a lot of money. Seems that Thelen is banking on not having to go through this again. One and out. We'll see what happens. The economy isn't getting any better.
9:32 and his ilk seem to be oblivious to the obvious fact that job protectionist policies have been disastrous for all economies that have tried them.
When you make it too hard for any business to fire people, they would simply scale down on hiring in the first place and use some temps. Or not expand at all.
If you want permanently high unemployment, make sure to shame firms so that they never hire more than absolutely necessary.
11:53, everyone below the "Vault 10" is certainly not screwed. People look at the Vault rankings and honestly believe they show where firms stand. You need to focus on PPP and revenue per lawyer - there are some solid firms in the Vault 30-60 range that are on par in that regard with some of the more "prestigious" firms. Any firm that is competitive in the PPP and RPL categories should be able to weather the storm (ie ranked in the top 25-30 overall).
1:00 - amen. Funny how Cadwalader, O'Melveny, Jones Day, etc. are laying off associates / paying bonuses below market, while some of the Vault 30-60s seem just fine.
go get rich thelen partners/hope ur business dries up and karma bites you in the ass
The legal lad site say at least one associate was laid off in each of the offices, but I have a friend in their San Jose office, and they said they haven't heard any associate (they only have 12 associates) being laid off there.
in fact they just had a lateral hire start in january.
Lat, can you do an item about layoffs in ibanking? I've heard the cuts have been very deep.
Anyone who is familiar with this firm's situation should not be surprised. Back in 2006 (or was it 2005?), the American Lawyer did a story about the fact that this firm was bleeding partners and associates even as it increased its profitability. My guess is that the firm continued to struggle throughout 2007 but was kept afloat by the relatively good market conditions through early to mid 2007. However, once things hit hard this year, it proved too much and they finally had to resort to cutting people.
I sincerely feel bad for the folks here. They have a lot of good people who work at this firm. I really do hope that their associates will either a) find new positions quickly or b) perhaps use this as an opportunity to pursue other avenues that they would not have pursued otherwise.
As far as everyone else, don't get too high on the Schadenfreude. Sure, there are firms out there who are better managed that some and can weather tough storms better. But if things get bad enough, this could be any of us.
Here's the article about Thelen's problems back in 2006 that I was talking about:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1146647127028&rss=newswire
1:00 and 1:06: Not quite. The firms that do well on a PPP basis may be extremely leveraged. This means they make $$$ in upmarkets but are even more exposed to downturns like now. The V10 firms have lots of value invested in reputation. They are therefore less likely (particularly after the Shearman fiasco last down market) to layoff associates. They are also less exposed to the market since they tend to turn down more work than they can do. The line isn't drawn at V10, but as a measure of reputation, the idea still holds.
9:32pm Profits
Please keep in mind partners don't owe associates anythings. Partner have every right to shed associates if they want to or if they need to. The partners are running a business. See Jack Welch, "Winning" (Harper Collins, 2005) (10% of bottom performers should be cut)
On Summer recruiting.
When I was a summer, the partner in charge of the summer program essentially said that it would make more economic sence to to just give each summer a low end Mercedes since thats what the budget amounted to for each summer associate.
8:26: law students don't owe partners a thing, either. For Thelen, which will never draw from the top of the pool, firings don't matter.
But how many of the V10 or V20 do you think want to be the next Shearman?
On a different note, partners aren't running a business; a law firm is an organization of professionals, which is supposed to mean something beyond the bank/corporation model.
Thelen recruiting = dead.
You can lay off some mid-level associates, axe a partner or two, but to treat incoming associates and summers this way is completely unacceptable. How can any of them feel confident that things will be better in Jan. 2009? What law student in his/her right mind would accept an offer from this firm at the end of this summer? Or the next?
This recession ain't going anywhere anytime soon. And, unfortunately, Thelen's actions are going to be replicated at a lot of other shops--especially in the smaller markets. Every poorly-leveraged law firm trying to keep up with the Jones' through salary hikes should be ashamed of themselves. No doubt that every Thelen hire would gladly trade last year's salary hike for a little job security--and a competent management team.
If last year's hires have to start in january what do they do about their loans...the banks come a calling in november...feel bad for them...also, some summers gave up offers for thelen...how can that be ok? who runs a business like that?
Shearman still sucks.
What departments laid off at Thelan? A lot of more conservative firms have been looking for strategic hires - now may be the time to do some poaching ...
Did someone just cite Jack Welch?
11:49, in addition to saving money for not paying people and not looking bad when you don't give incoming first years a bonus for working only three months, you also encourage some people to leave and work elsewhere, depending on their financial situation.
If you're graduating law school, you've got expenses, mainly rent, and if you're already committed to a NYC apartment, then you're forking out 3 extra months with no income. For some, it might make a difference and they will look for another job. Looks better than firing MORE first years.
When Thelen was Thelen Marrin Johnson & Bridges, they nearly died when Kaiser Industries went belly up in the early 1990s. They survived, and did well as a second-tier firm for a lot of years after that, but the shellshock from that made them quick to cut folks thereafter. O'Neal, IIRC, has been around Thelen since the TMJ&B days and knows what can happen to a firm if it tries to ride it out.
Now, this sucks of course for the associates involved, this is a move consistent with their culture.
When Thelen was Thelen Marrin Johnson & Bridges, they nearly died when Kaiser Industries went belly up in the early 1990s. They survived, and did well as a second-tier firm for a lot of years after that, but the shellshock from that made them quick to cut folks thereafter. O'Neal, IIRC, has been around Thelen since the TMJ&B days and knows what can happen to a firm if it tries to ride it out.
Now, this sucks of course for the associates involved, this is a move consistent with their culture.
11:01/Employed Ibanker:
Well said.
Hmmm. I guess I shouldn't hold my breath while I'm waiting for Thelen to respond to my application.
If Thelen starts first years in January AND doesn't give them any sort of reformulated market bonus, they're going to completely ruin their reputation with students and really hurt their future recruiting. If this is true, they should rethink it. Students are watching.
Not all biglaw firms are in such a bad state. We have a ton of work to do in my dept at my firm. How do you like that, suckers?
Lat, you're wrong that Legal Pad should have credited you if they were working on the story at the same time. It's only if they learned of the story from you. If you're going to try your hand at real reporting, you should know the rules.
I agree with 8:26. We as lawyers often forget that law firms are businesses and that firing people often makes good business sense. They say that a company should get rid of the bottom 10% of its performers every year. Law firms don't do that because lawyers tend to see their jobs as somewhat recession proof and stable. Truth is, it would probably increase the standards of our profession if there were more layoffs, as well as increase the quality of a law firm's work.
And to 11:53, that's just an ignorant comment. Being V10 doesn't mean that you can afford to pay your associates more money. The better indicators for that are profits per partner, revenue per lawyer, etc.
hey 10:44 hope u lose ur job
Junior associates at most firms are easily replaceable with much cheaper staff attorneys, contract attorneys, law clerks, paralegals, and paralegals with law degrees. Why pay 160k when you can pay someone less to do the same work and then lateral in midlevel talent that some other firm paid for. Not sustainable if everyone does it obviously, but when you make the pay difference between first year associates who know nothing and "fifth year" staff attorneys so broad and make it that much cheaper to hire the later, it makes more financial sense, ie. partner profit sense, to go with the staff attorney. Many tasks junior associates do (document review, legal research, put together binders, make timelines of facts, etc) can be done for much cheaper by experienced staff attorneys, contract attorneys, law clerks, and paralegals. Because of the focus on partner profit, as opposed to professional development and partnership training, the 160k pay raise may make some firms choose the cheaper route rather than hire as many new associates. It won't happen to the Wachtells of the law firm world, but even V10-50 firms fill their ranks now with staff attorneys, as well as contract attorneys, with jobs once done by junior associates even a couple years ago.
If Thelen starts first years in January AND doesn't give them any sort of reformulated market bonus, they're going to completely ruin their reputation with students and really hurt their future recruiting. If this is true, they should rethink it. Students are watching.
You folks need to stop drinking the kool aid- Nobody cares that a bunch of inexperienced students are watching. We can replace you with real lawyers at less cost- The buble you people live in is astonishing- you are all in dire need of a firm reality check.
Since it's probably inevitable that firms of a variety of rankings will undergo layoffs, this is actually GREAT news, at least for 3Ls starting in the fall because so long as your firm is ranked above Thelen, it won't want to flat out rescind 3L offers because "even Thelen" only pushed back start dates...it sucks, but maybe other firms will be more hesitant since for now the bar is set at later start dates rather than offer rescission.
Hey mr. partner if you werent worried about law students watching u would have posted ur name...are you even experienced in reality?
I agree with 10:40. Firms need new associates. Thelen shouldn’t squander its reputation among students because it’s harmful for the firm as a whole to some extent. If all firms took your point of view, 11:04, we’d all be out of jobs. Everyone starts from scratch at some point. If you don’t have any first years, you never have any second or third years and so on. Thelen should be trying to increase happiness and morale instead of disenchanting incoming first years. It’s not an impossible task.
Lat:
Do an update on Greenberg Traurig. Have they started paying equity partner draws again? That place is a bomb waiting to explode.
yeah, with firms keeping discussions relating to layoffs/trims tightly under wraps, i agree that it's good to know now what will likely happen among other law firms. Sure, some might actually rescind offers, but if the trend is going to be 'pushed back' start dates, I'd rather have a job that starts later than no job whatsoever.
Hey mr. partner if you werent worried about law students watching u would have posted ur name...are you even experienced in reality?
On what basis do you support the claim that my lack of concern about what whinny inexperienced hacks are thinking is somehow related to my seperate and distinct concern of remaining annonymous which concern should be self-evident- Again you suck- 1st years to 50K and a stern ass kicking!
Mr. Partner kant speel
just saying...
Mr Partner how about u list ur name so i know ur firm and we will see what happens to yourt summer classes, first and second years...
layoffs will continue, secret or not. summer classes will not be completely offered, next summer class will be even smaller. Biglaw is dependent on the financial markets - less bankers and deals less attorneys necessary - and while litigation may go up its NOT enough to actually make up the difference. Markets are acting wonky and it will be awhile before they stabilize - who knows when. All I see I short term drive ups for short term gains to watch it plummet back down again. Its dumb for firms to hold on to bloated staff. Law firms are not a charity. Last time I checked law students weren't donating their time free of charge to these places - BIGLAW doesnt have to pay you exorbitant salaries while you sit and do nothing. You people are clueless. Everyone knows there is no loyalty in BIGLAW just money and it goes both ways. Im tired of sanctomonius folks talking about looking after deadweight just because. These are the same people who would likely refuse to do probono because they arent paid for their time so why do it.
one more thing this whole reputation thing among law students means bupkiss - only a few elite firms have a chance with top students after that I guarantee you NO firm will have a problem recruiting - law students are desparate folks - sure some firms may not get the most prestigious folks but in the end - NO FIRM will have difficulty filling spaces.
Just wait for a few firms to announce across the board 10% pay cuts in lieu of layoffs. They will be considered the heros and all will follow. NY to $144K.
Can we get a list of shame up in here?
I've never heard of this firm, but we should warn future generations.
11:35, my firm spends close to $50k per head recruiting.
I think you are a little of the mark. Recruiting is one of the most important elements of a successful law firm.
Law students outside the top 10 law schools are so aren't picky and probably don't need to be recruited by biglaw at 50k per head. Laterals are another story.
V10 trolls are hilarious. If you work in a massive, highly leveraged corporate department whose biggest clients have hit the skids, this affects you. Just because the firm is well diversified to handle a downturn (meaning keep up PPP) doesn't mean they're going to keep all 300 of their transactional associates. It's about the value of you and your group, not your firm's overall prestige.
Stuff like this never happens at Heller.
10:44 - The rule you describe applies in the blogosphere for opinion / commentary. E.g., you link to the source where you happened to learn of something.
For reported news with original reporting, you generally credit the source that broke it first (even if you were working on something or had heard something similar).
E.g., New York Times crediting Washington Post on the Walter Reed story.
10:21, I totally agree. Having no paycheck when those first loan statements arrive is going to suck. And the summers are going to have what, the remains of 7k after taxes less to pay their 3l tuition/living expenses with . . . This can't be good for recruiting. Hopefully, they'll five them all offers anyway, realizing that many of the summers will probably elect to go elsewhere. . .
11:20, it's separate, not seperate.
11:35, it's desperate, not desparate.
Funny- the point remains though
12:35pm
Come back to this board after you have taken and passed the Bar Exam.
I agree with 11:10. It'll be interesting to see which other firms follow suit. A January start date beats a lay off.
Partners to run-on sentences!
Thelen? Recruiting? If you know who Thelen is (TTT) then you are scrambling for a job and will take whatever you can get any year--you will not care (nor even know/remember) about delayed start or layoffs, in a down year.
12:33: You can defer loans if you are not making money.
Mr. Partner,
While I agree with your general thesis about the ability of law firms to utilize cheaper cogs than associates to get work done, your argument is shortsighted.
It is akin to those people who get pissed off about maternity leave. Sure, there is a short term loss to company's who pay people while they are not working. However, there is the issue of population renewal that needs to be considered (and if you don't think that is an issue, speak to the Russians and the issue that they face with a diminishing population).
Back to the point about associates vs. staff attorneys - staff attorneys are not manufactured, especially senior ones. Many of them (the better ones) are former associates who have transistioned out.
In addition, solid senior associates are not manufactured; they are nurtured/grown. Maybe they have come from another firm, but there is a collective need by all firms to grow associates. That means that you might have to deal with a less efficient 4th year in order to get a top notch 7th year.
At a certain point, staff attornys just don't cut it, whether it is at a senior level, or even higher. Considering that is the case, it is clear that there is a need for associates of all levels, so that there can be senior associates.
If you have few mid-levels you will have elevated recruiting costs for seniors, lack of continuity in your firm, you will probably find a few bad apples in your recruiting group of seniors because you lack good information on their skills and those costs may just offset your gains by using staff attorneys.
In short, when considering hiring needs, it is important to avoid being penny wise and pound foolish. There are short-term costs and long-term costs. Both of these need to be balanced.
I am not sure that your argument does a great job of representing that balance and errs on the side of being penny-wise.
I do have to agree that there really are VERY few law school students that have the market power that they think they do. When you have 150K+ in loans, your negotiating position is somewhat marginalized. You need a job...preferably a very high paying one. Layoffs might hurt a firm once the market goes up...but if the market is down and stays down a little while (which may be the case here)...I think that layoffs won't matter.
At the end of the day, as the saying goes, beggers can't be choosers.
Supply and demand govern here.
1) If supply of jobs is small and demand is high (current scenario) then the firms can get away with a lot of stuff.
2) If there are too few associates, then the seniors that stick around that are profitable and worthwhile will have more leverage in their negotiations too. This can cost the firms more money too in the long run.
Thank you Mr. Keynesian.
Someone has to watch your bottom line Mr. Partner and how you manage your company.
Remember, you have a JD, not an MBA or Ph.D. in economics.
Mr. Partner = HIGHlarious!
12:14, I would be very surprised if V10 firms laid off anyone. They don't really need to and they can weather the storm and hold on to less profitable associates until the tide turns again. That's what prestige buys. I've never heard of associate layoffs from V10 other than for performance reasons.
how are those pepople going bto be paid till then?
i agree that top shops won't lay off people for economic reasons. only S&S did so during the dot com bust, right?
and to those who say juniors are useless, well that's built into the model--junior's become mid-levels and seniors. you can't survive on just hiring laterals (which by the way cost $40k just to pay the headhunter).
1:29: that's the point... they don't.
1:19: PULL YOUR HEAD OUT -- SHEARMAN STERLING WAS V10 WHEN THEY LAID PEOPLE OFF--SKADDEN LAID TONS OF PEOPLE OFF IN 80s--WHEN THEY WERE KNOWN AS TOP 5 FIRM. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND THAT IS THE USUAL COMMENT ON THIS BOARD. THELEN LAYING PEOPLE OFF IS ACTUALLY SHOWING THEIR PRESTIGE AND BUSINESS ACUMEN!!!
Um, 1:37, you are clueless. You can hire a mid-level (3rd year) trained and experienced for $40,000, that wants to be at a firm. Or you can raise up your own associate for (170,000 per year/average) plus training -- with no idea if they want to go pro bono, or have babies....
Christ, talk about screwing the 1st yrs even before logging 1 billable!
Ah yes, the economic invincibility of Vault 10 firms. Wilson Sonsini used to be in the V10, and Shearman Sterling. They fired people just like everyone else.
WSGR WAS NEVER IN THE V10!!!!
WSGR is number one?!?!
Possible scenario for the first year associates is what happened in the fall of 2001 at lots of big companies. Start dates were moved from August to later in the fall...then to January....and eventually at some point in the fall, phone calls were made announcing that there would be no start date and that the first year class should find other work.
WSGR is number one?!?!
I hope that what 2:26 says doesn't happen. Seems like Thelen took the necessary steps now so they won't have to lay off later. At least that's the goal. But you're right...who knows where the economy is going. Lets hope this isn't another 2001.
Thank you investment banks for ruining economy
I'm sure there will be students willing to take jobs with Thelen. They might not be top students from top schools, but they'll be there.
Wall street is laying off junior people, mid level people, and top people. Why? Because they aren't making enough money, and its a chance to get rid of the losers without too much reputational risk. Will MBA recruiting suffer? Not one bit. Why, the alternative (unemployment) is both real, and sucks a lot. Same reason Wall Street will be taking pay cuts this year. I can hear the comp discussion now:
"But I made twice as much as last year and my bonus is lower, and my stock restricted for 8 years - this sucks"
"Try Bear Stearns and see if they are hiring - oh, nevermind."
end of discussion.
This talk about "punishing" firms as 2L's or whatever is silly - but predictable. It's the same impulse that results in thinking you'll get a better deal with collective bargaining. The Keynesians (cringe) are right in this case. NYC to 144, and Ill put money on it.
2:53 investment banks didn't ruin the ecnonomy - you lawyers did. You sue everyone! You guys are all circleing this "Terrible Deal" Bear Stearns got and mentally racking up billable hours. This will result in real economic collapse as the liquidity crunch widens while you guys parade around in armani suits carrying sheaves of documents and correcting each others comma use. Retards.
I can't sue until one party (or the other) backs out... I am hoping for bankruptcy! Then I can wear amani business casual and carry papers and correct semi-colon use, while my banker/trader friends sleep on my couches and eat leftover turtle food.
1:58, what is the summer program but a giant waste-of-money recruitment effort? why does my firm fly me to far off cities to drink with *1L's*?
the fact is that juniors are necessary in some form or fashion to do grunt work. but more importantly you need to hire juniors to train them to become midlevels.
your law firm model (of only hiring laterals and having paras to junior work) is not implemented at any major firm.
Layoffs are the perfect excuse to dump your first wife -- just in time for next economic cycle and cash rewards. Everyone big gets fired at one point... pick yourself up, stop shaving your chest and balls and be a man.
SUE EVERYBODY! I hope your trader friend sticks a cricket in your nostril while you sleep.
LISTEN YOU CRY-BABY LAWYERS, BANKERS TRADERS AND LAW STUDENTS: I was waiting tables while my ENTIRE INDUSTRY was on strike -- recession? Try WRITERS STRIKE. I was making ZERO dollars, with ZERO employment opportunities. You think hot actresses want to bang unemployed writers?! (they don't). I didn't see a bunch of blog postings whining about my plight or lawyers or bankers fretting. So lawyers and bankers can have their turn waiting tables and fluffing on gay porn sets -- at least you will have fresh new tv shows to watch!
Try this when they attempt to lay you off:
"you can't LAY me off. I am not the guy you LAY OFF. I am the guy you PAY to go away. Are you too stupid to see that?" Worked for me.
Get over yourselves... you think anyone cares that Wall Street lays off a bunch of overpaid mid-western nerds that went to law school or business school. Get back in the coal mines, or wal-mart, or whatever mid-westerners do. You never belonged in NYC. NEXT!!
If you get laid off -- it is performance based -- they don't lay off superstars! Time to take a look at your life, career and either, a) make a change, or b) put a gun in your mouth.
Fluffing used to be an honorable profession - kind of like lawyering.
@2:53 I don't generally take to insulting people on this site, but your comment is moronic. True, lawyers may rack up large fees in the upcoming Bear litigation, but this amount (included in the total amount of litigation going on in the U.S., a majority of that NOT being frivilous) is nothing compared to the billions lost by the i-banks this year.
The truth is, part of the reason that Bear's price was so low was because they contemplated large fees because of the upcoming litigation (but you probably already knew that, as it's common knowledge).
Face it, the i-banks got greedy. They miscalculated the value of debt, assumed that fewer people would default on high interest mortgages, and then lost their tails because (like idiots) they failed to see that the housing market wouldn't go up forever.
No, lawyers did not tank the economy, nor did the government. The i-banks did this time. It's sad, but true.
Don't knock fluffers -- at least they are HIRING!!!
WHAT THE HECK IS A FLUFFER>?!>!
Bush and Greenspan drove this economy like Ted Kennedy on any given St. Patricks Day, that the Navy is in port...
Bernanke is doubling down on this economy like Spitzer wearing nothing but a head-band.
Yeah, Skadden has never had layoffs. Hilarious. Latham also fired a bunch of people when Drexel went under, though I'm guessing Latham wasn't in the V10 back then. The V4 is pretty safe, because none of those firms are very leveraged. They rely on high rpl to generate their ppp instead, but places like Skadden, Simpson, Latham, and Weil have lots of fat to cut in a down economy. Maybe they'll just get a bit harsher on the performance reviews. Even if you're to young to remember the savings and loan crisis, it wouldn't hurt to at least read a book about it. Lawyers at white shoe firms got fired, lots of them. And it could happen again.
Spitzer... now that reminds me of another fluffing related industry that is recessionproof and hiring...
3:33 - and also similar to lawyering.
Look, if you are a lawyer and get laid off....you can do a lot of other things. If you are a trader and get laid off... um, yeah. Professional gambler? Banker? Leech?!
they are currently trading two-fer-one white shoes for knee pads!!!
Love it: Lawyers rack up huge amounts of fees structuring deals for ibanks for years, taking no risks and livin' large. Then when those deals go pear shaped, the lawyers all stand around clucking that the banks are at fault and rack up fees for the next five years doing all the bankruptcies. Again, no risk! And always firmly in possession of the moral high ground. 23 stooges get the boot, and everyone is calling for solidarity. You are a bunch of paper skinned, over educated spellcheckers passing your days needling each other instead of working for a living. I hope your firms all collapse after you go on strike for better car service benefits.
Now that we have cut all the dead weight can we get a RAISE?!?!
NYC to 190 (or somewhere near inflation rate?!)
3:07, the DC offices of both non-DC based biglaw firms I have worked at have hired very few first year associates and relied on staff attorneys and lateral associates. We don't all work in 500 attorney offices in NYC.
inflation is last weeks news. Now its deflation. Assets, balance sheets, interest rates, gold, everything now points to a Japan 1990's scenario. NYC 190 or NYC 100 won't make a bit of difference unless you are getting paid in Euros. You'll still be poor.
3:19 again: @3:42 Bitter are we? Our job is to help you bankers create things (whether contracts, companies, trading instruments, etc.) legally. Our job is NOT to advise you on the business sense of such things. That's your job. Don't shift the blame. We all know what our purpose is. Many lawyers choose to be lawyers because of the relative stability of the market.
Don't blame us because we helped idiotic bankers make stupid instruments that would eventually come to destroy the economy. And also don't blame us for cleaning up the mess you made.
Creation and cleanup are our job. And we will never reap the enormous returns that bankers do in good years, nor will we go home with a zero bonus in bad year (well, that may happen this year, but our base salary is higher).
Get real and quit bitching.
hey lat, how bout a firm layoff list of shame. I think it would be interesting to know what kinds of firms are making the cuts and where they are on the vault rankings.
3:50 I know - let me go on a lawyer blog and fluff up lawyers generally. That'll probably be a hard sell. Doubt too many people will argue with you as you are basically trumpeting the self worth of every person on this board.
Nobody said lawyers knew, understood, or should have understood the risks. You're absolutely right - not your job. My point is that some of you are self righteous a-holes whose only talent is pointing the blame at people, and making the charges stick in court - a point you seem to be making nicely for me.
I know, lets cut 10% of associates, pay the others 10% more, and everyone works 10% more hours. Why not 20%?! who wants a 20% raise! awesome! Even better, lets cut 50% of associates, work twice as much and get paid twice. Except that I already work 75 hours per week - and there are only 168 hours in a week. I already only sleep 5 hours a night after the "go pills" wear off, and my ludes kick in. I'm so medicated...
I am sweating profusely in the armpit and groin area.
If you don't produce, you get cut.
It's very simple.
Really.
Ny to Euros!
What I need after a week like this is a nice fluff....
"what goes around comes around.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 19, 2008 06:24 PM"
sorry about the confusion. directed at all the people calling thelen a crappy place and that somehow the firm deserved it for trying to keep up with the market. i like the firm and a lot of the people there. sorry to hear about the losses.
@ 4:01 Don't worry, I'm not trying to fluff up lawyers at all (in fact, I don't think anything I've written was even remotely aimed to validate the legal profession). I was just stating a simple fact--that our job is to negotiate and create instruments that you determine should be placed into the market. I believe you are the one blaming others for the current catastrophe, not I.
Like I said earlier, I never (or at least rarely) come on these sites to talk smack, but seriously, if you come into a legal blog and talk shit about the entire profession, you should expect to get some push back, even if some of (myself included) find our jobs to be boring and often wish we had considered other career paths. But we've spent a hell of a lot of years of stressful days and brutal hours to earn the right to complain about our own profession. That, however, doesn't mean we will willingly allow others to do the same.
I know a guy who is counsel in a smaller office of Thelen who regularly does paralegal-level work and actually bills it at his own rate. I wonder if he got canned.
Not a happy day for Thelen. Lets hope the layoffs end here.
If THelen is laying off, that is a green light for other top-ranked firms that layoffs are happening!?!?! THELEN YOU SUCK!!!
3:54 great idea.. lets get that list of shame going.
what about shearman.. i hear they love to fire people when things get a little tough
what about shearman.. i hear they love to fire people when things get a little tough
First of all, Thelen doesn't suck. Second, 5:17, what you wrote makes no sense. Clearly the economy is crumbling. I think some other firms in a similar position will be following suit soon, with more layoffs and many many more firms telling first years not to show up until January.
as far as list of shame we've got ctw, thelen, morgan lewis,
I agree with 5:48. I have friends that work at Thelen and they love it there. While it may not be V50, it is still a reputable firm that represents big clients.
5:48 and 5:53 are on target. I have friends at Thelen (NY) as well who are generally happy. The firm is being proactive, and they'll pull through this. ATL commenters are often too focused on prestige. Lots of people at Thelen enjoy working there, and when this all blows over at Thelen and other firms are in this very same position, the Thelenites can get back to being happy to be there.
VAULT MEANS NOTHING!!! You have to look at region and industry focus. For example, there was an article in the National Law Journal this week that talked about how hot energy and energy project finance is -- lawyers in this area are in hot demand. Therefore, firms like Vinson & Elkins and Baker Botts are probably doing awesome -- the Texas market is doing great, they're exposed to growing markets like Asia and the Middle East, and energy is growing like gangbusters. Vault doesn't capture these important nuances.
glad i left
I found this in the old greedy files:
http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001MUM
was this true or completely fake?
was this true or just complete BS? It refers to cuts back in 2001 by a v10.
http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001MUM
Wow, the sheer snobbery of some of you folks is amazing, especially when it is coupled with such cluelessness. If you haven't noticed, the economy has turned to crap. Bear Sterns has disappeared. Think about where big firms get clients who can pay high hourly rates - the money to pay associates has to come from somewhere. Layoffs are never nice, but with first year associates getting huge salaries (and bumping up all associates) before they are paper-trained, the costs to firms of holding on to associates in slow times is much higher than it used to be. It is a trade-off - if associates were still getting $70,000, firms could keep twice as many of them. Wait and see what happens to other firms, and how they respond. Thelen did this early and openly, and isn't trying to pretend this is "normal attrition" or "performance based." Layoffs are going to depend on the type of practice the firm has, not on any "ranking." Reputation among students? Yeah, it is nice to have a good reputation with students, but keeping the folks who bring in clients (who pay for associates) is key. Most new associates can't do that. Allocating pain is difficult, and easy to second guess, especially if you identify with the person who got hurt. We will see other firms struggle with this problem as well. My take is that Thelen tried to do it fairly, but that only reduces the pain, it does not eliminate it.
Any word on Cadwalader? They have a huge bloat. If they don't layoff droves soon, their PPP will be way down this year, and that can't happen.
test
From 2001 on greedy
http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001MUM
8:20, what do you think billing rates were when first years made 70k? How about putting these numbers in inflation-adjusted dollars? Or accounting for average billable hours going from 1600 to 2000+?
CWT has been laying off stealthily since september - and it continues to.
Don't know why a disgruntled ex-CWT employee or no-offered law student is trying to spread bullshit *cough 10:45PM cough* but I don't think anyone here believes you.
Believe me we woulda heard it on ATL months ago if it's been happening since Sept.
Now try a different approach like "CWT now has bedbugs AND lice in the office!" and maybe you'll convince at least one gullible fool.
Ok children stop fighting.
I work in thelen's dc office. it blows.
Incoming DC associates and summers should look for another job
i have first hand thelen experience. not a class shop and it has a bit of an inferiority complex too (surprise!). glad i went someplace else.
11:23, 10:25 may be telling the truth if referring to CWT's staff attorneys. Don't know what's happening there now, but just remembered being there for meeting last Sept and overheard some associates talking about firm dropping most (all?) perm staff attorneys. Didn't think much about it at first until my counterpart explained that the rank was fairly sizable and some had been with firm for several years. Ah, gotta love the hidden cash cows upping PPP.
It's staggering how many people make judgments of Thelen (or any firm, for that matter) with no actual first hand experience. It's a solid firm going through some growing pains right now. That's all folks. Thelen will be just fine.
11:23, sorry - it should have been "10:45" (and not 10:25)
I'd love to hear from some of the Thelen attorneys who were laid off or from some of the 3Ls whose jobs will now be starting in January.
@11:52 - Which way?
brown raysman screwed my husband- he died tragically and they cut him off and never reimbursed him for hours billed. "screw you we want the big bucks" said one of the partners
hopefully mr. m will get his due with the thelen layoffs
12:52 - seriously, that sucks. i didn't like thelen much before but now i will never ever take that firm seriously again. seriously shady.
11:23 - whether you or everyone else believes me, it doesn't matter - the fact is CWT has been covertly laying off attorneys since September.
i am a 3L who is supposed to be starting in january, quite freaked out by all this
Judging by all the "NY to 190K!" comments out there, I'm POSITIVE that if any of you were partners at one of these firms, you'd lay off hundreds, rather than dozens, of people just to keep your salary up.
Some of you need to learn how to run a business. If you honestly think that you would take a pay cut just to retain employees that you do not have any work for, you're either lying to yourself or you don't know how to run a business.
Remember that employers are firing people not just because they want to keep their profits up but because it is silly for them to pay employees a large sum of money when there is no work available. Unfortunately it will be this way for quite a while and we'll all just need to suck it up.
PS: I am very sorry for the layoff victims. I hope they are able to find new employment quickly. Maybe if you people weren't so busy commenting on how awful the firm is you'd realize that a few of your fellow attorneys just lost their jobs.
I just can't believe that I've got to interview again. I mean who the hell is going to hire me right now. What do I tell my family? The worst part for me is that they have all these 8 year plus associates and special counsel that bring in no business, have bloated salaries and have a job. Trim the fat from the places that cost the most and don't produce not the places that need time to grow.
I am one of the Techs that was affected by this. Feel free to email me recruiters.
pmiranda@miranda-us.com
11:23 - You're either a lying partner or you're next on the chopping block -- they never tell the next victim in line. If you are a partner, how do you really expect to cover up 200 attorney firings?
I work at Thelen and I do love it. An earlier commenter was absolutely correct in that we will get through this and we will go back to being happy at our jobs. The situation does suck and those of us who survived feel horrible for those who didn't (this includes the partners who, believe it or not, had a rough time with these decisions). We know that a law firm is a business and we know what is going on with the economy. Apparently, some of you do not.
These things happen. Layoffs have been happening for years and they will continue to happen for years to come. Thankfully, the situation at Thelen is not what some of the commenters on here are making it out to be.
P.S. to 11:52 - feel free to leave. I am working on a big case and could use your office space for some of my files.
i'm a 3 L who had other offers that i turned down for Thelen (mistake?) this firm could have told us in january when our prospects of another job would have been higher...as for now we are stuck with loan payments and no advance to make our transition to NYC easier...frankly i dont know if i can afford to wait until january
9:09, I really do feel bad for you. But at least your offer wasn't rescinded alltogether. That would have been horrible. The firm should put some sort of advance package together to help ease your pain, even if it's not much. One of the commenters above mentioned that if you have no income you might not have to pay your loans off yet. I'm not sure how that works, but I'm sure you'll look into it.
At the same time, 9:09, if you really can't afford to stay, maybe you should think about your other options now. Chances are that the firm won't help you at all or give you any advance. It's a tough situation. Good luck.
Thank You.
Putting aside the terrible state of the economy, what's the likelihood any biglaw offices would be hiring incoming associates this late in the game? That is to say, that even in the best of times don't most firms finish hiring by November.
Dear 9:40:
Adjusting for inflation from 1989, when large firms were paying first years $70K, would give a starting salary of around $118K to $121K today. So at $160K, first years are getting a significant premium over inflation. The billable hour requirements (and billing rates)have gone up in order to pay the cost of the salaries, not the other way around. Do you really think I am a moron?
11:13 - typically, this time of year is when law firms look to hire law clerks to start in the fall so they should have openings for some junior associates. With the economy the way it is, however, many law clerks have reported difficulty in their job search so things do not look rosy for laid off associates right now. Are there any law clerks/junior associates who have had good luck with CA firms recently (in the past month or so)? I think that some people on this board could use some encouragement.
Billing rates went up to support associate salaries? Yep, still a moron.
what do ppl here think about the likelihood that offers will just end up being rescinded?
I hark back to the TMJB days and remember it as a nice place to work, with a meritocracy ethos.
It mayl be easier for a laid-off Thelen associate to be able to say to a prospective employer, 'I got laid off due purely to economic downturn that caught my firm.'
But what about those associates at other firms who invariably will be called in one-by-one and told, falsely, 'We're letting you go because you just haven't performed up to our expectations.'?
Those are the real sleaze bags -- big firms that try to disguise their economic difficulties by sullying the reputations of hard-working associates. (In the '91 downturn, a friend of mine who was a 6th-year associate at another large San Fran firm was called in -- by someone other than the partner he'd principally slaved for for more than half a decade -- and told, essentially, 'It's just not working out.')
Thelen may have been wrong to boast of continued profitability for 2008 while driving a stake thru the hearts of young associates -- but credit should be given where it's due.
11:28 - Oh, I see, you must be a subscriber to the simplistic "greedy partner" school. Sure, the partners want to maintain their high incomes. But high associate salaries are a cost that cuts into that. So to maintain both (high partner income and high associate salaries) the billing rates get raised, and the billable hour requirements get raised. Everything is interconnected - there is no one villain, but there is plenty of greed to go around. When $160K is the baseline for a rookie with no experience and no clients, it shifts upward the expectations of everyone else. And the clients pay for it.
12:11 im pondering that too...what are the reaslistic chances that Thelen will honor its summer associate offers in January?
Those who bemoan the "greedy partners" who don't self-sacrifice in order to allow everyone to weather the storm are incredibly naive and short-sighted. If the cuts aren't made and the PPPs decrease, the partners with the big books of business will simply jump to where they'll make a hell of a lot more money (which the current "greedy partner" detractors would surely do in the same position). So the firm survives in the short term, but inevitably implodes down the road. Shoring up PPPs now by making this incredibly difficult decision is the only way to save the firm going forward.
And don't fool yourselves. Minimum hours at Thelen were 1800 even 10 years ago. The skyrocketing associate salaries absolutely have driven both the higher billing rates AND the higher hours expectations.
It is an incredibly sad environment around here right now. Some close friends of mine (attorneys and staff) are now gone, and I hope all will turn out well for them. But I recognize this place is a business, and, even if I may strenuously disagree with particular choices, I know that the decisions overall were necessary and exceedingly difficult to make. Former TMJB associate is right--Thelen's been through this before, and it knows what needs to be done. We managed to escape the mass layoffs of the dot-bust era. This time, we just weren't so lucky.
11:27, I am a California junior/mid-level associate. I get about 1-2 calls or emails a week from headhunters asking if I'm interested in transferring firms (which I'm not) so there does seem to be some work out there. Maybe not as much as before, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for those looking for new spots. Good luck.
1:00 - I agree
Maybe 1:06PM is just a superstar :)
Good luck to all the layoff victims out there. I really hope you guys are able to find new jobs soon.
I sincerely hope Thelen honors its summer offers in January. Its unfortunate that there's no way of knowing now what will happen over the next few months.
my balls ache
I'm a 2L about to join a summer class that is bigger than ever. One would hope that my firm anticipated the slowdown, but this doesn't appear to be the case -- our summer class has nearly doubled in size.
How worried should I be about getting an offer at the end of the summer?
good luck
Wow. What a crappy firm.
If Thelen couldn't afford to raise salaries, they shouldn't have done it then. Better firms, with clients willing to pay the rates, had no problem raising salaries while still increasing PPP so they could keep their partners and their books, which of course matters. Perhaps when Thelen decided to raise salaries they let associates know that they couldn't really afford the raise and would need to cut bait as soon as the economy soured. I'm guessing they kept that information very much to themselves while trying to play out of their league in the meantime.
Of course, Thelen elects to lay off brand new lawyers instead of the dead wood 8 year plus associates and of counsel that can't bring in business. What do you think a 12th year lawyer makes anyway?? Probably enough for two of the first years that they threw away. They'll say thats b/c the more experienced attorneys can do the work, but what about growing people that may actually bring business. I'm sure that if they got rid of those older attorneys, they'd have to do the work themselves....
Oh and another funny thing: if you were marketable (had experience) you got three months severance, if you weren't (ie: NEW) you got two months severance. What sense does that make? Starve the people that can't get a job???
if you were really new (i.e. incoming associate) you got no severance, but the promise of a january start date that may or may not be honored.
are other incoming associates freaking out/job hunting? i don't know what to do...
are other incoming associates freaking out/job hunting? i don't know what to do...
are other incoming associates freaking out/job hunting? i don't know what to do...
It is the nonsense that is posted here, obviously by young unexperienced associates, that gives attorneys a bad reputation. Thelen is NOT a bad place to work and the state of the economy is bleak. Everyone needs to tighten their belts nowadays and you unfortunately are crying about not being able to pay your $4,000/month rent in Manhattan. Well, use your common sense and move to one of the other boroughs. Try living in Bedford Styvesant or Bushwick (your rent will only be $600/month) and see what working people need to do to get by even in a good economy.
Everyone is moaning about the poor attorneys, but I have worked enough years with lawyers to know that in the BIG firms, the associates come and go and show no loyalty. They work for 2-3 years, (if that much) and then move on for more money. Most of their time is written off. The lawfirm makes a huge investment to train new attorneys whose time is not as billable as you would like to think and then they leave after a year or two and take their experience to a new firm. The unfortunate victims of layoffs whether due to the economy or mergers are the dedicated staff that have stayed with the firm for years. They are people with families to support, expenses and mortgages to pay. These are the people that have devoted their time and effort to keep the legal industry a smooth running machine. They are the people that stay around for 10, 20 years or more. Their maturity and experience are a benefit and asset to both new and old attorneys. They are the ones that the new attorneys come to for help and guidance to learn the basics and in getting their careers off and running. The staff does not earn anywhere close to what a first year makes regardless of their years of experience and dedication. One first year's salary and bonus could pay the annual salary of 6 file clerks or 4 secretaries or 3 paralegals. A lawyer may have invested 3 years in law school, but some staff have invested a lifetime in one job (and are educated individuals with post graduate degrees in other areas of study outside of the legal field) and you tell me who is the unfortunate person in a layoff. What makes you think that you are the "Entitled"?
Years ago a graduate of law school worked for nothing or nearly nothing just to gain experience. The makings of a successful lawyer was one that brought new clients to the firm by his or her fourth or fifth year. That is a true measure of one's success. Winning a trial or closing a megabillion deal is important to one's career and to our clients, who we are here to serve. Without the clients, we have nothing. And attorneys without a dedicated staff can not be successful. That which has been posted here only shows the inexperience and immaturity a young attorney in today's world has and you expect clients will want to pay for this?
In a recession, a company must make prudent decisions if they want to survive. Without taking this step early on, alot more people at Thelen might have ended up on the unemployment line.
11:35...the entitlement comes from the ridicuolous summer programs...make the summer job more realistic, yachting isnt as necessary as learning how to bring in a client...dont lie to the summers...the reason associates leave is that the environment sucks...the rumor mill law firm setting breeds resentment and mercenary type lawyers...restore the profession
also, rent in manhattan is expensive and when you work 15 hours a day to makke your billiables, you need to live close in order to have a life...also the smart money diversifies their law practice and doesnt just focus on quick money making schemes...special finance and real estate deals that generate monopoly money should be regarded as such...when are people going to learn that money that comes too easilly goes just as easily...THELEN should have diversified with many different types of clients for gods sake
also law school costed a lot less back in your day ...who can afford to work for nothing with 200,000 in loans...did you think before you wrote that post....how about you have the balls to say that to the summers in all firms...see how many of them willll put up with the crap you cal the legal practice
Calm down. 11:35 is obvious a jealous (and probably laid off) staff "professional."
1:57 am, I did think and I know that law school did certainly cost less in those days. The fact is that although you may have loans, most of you lived with mom and dad and never worked a day in your life. Maybe if you started working and saving at 14/15, you would appreciate how hard it is to make money. The point is that majority of you have even given a thought or shown any sympathy for your co-workers who are not lawyers. It is all about you. You have loans, but these people have mortgages, car loans and children in college too. Probably similliar to your parents. So why do you feel any more entitled to security in your job than the staff? Nothing in this world has a guarantee, only death and taxes.
As for 15 hours a day, the Bronx and Queens are 30 minutes from midtown. Brooklyn is 15 minutes from downtown. It is an option.
what are you talking about 9:38? lived at home? mom and dad? maybe you live in a dream world where everyone has a family that supports them but at 16 I was on my own...this job made all of that worthwhile and now it is gone...but ill start again and maaybe youll work for me one day
what are you talking about 9:38? lived at home? mom and dad? maybe you live in a dream world where everyone has a family that supports them but at 16 I was on my own...this job made all of that worthwhile and now it is gone...but ill start again and maybe youll work for me one day...btw rent is the saamae in brooklyn, queens
what are you talking about 9:38? lived at home? mom and dad? maybe you live in a dream world where everyone has a family that supports them but at 16 I was on my own...this job made all of that worthwhile and now it is gone...but ill start again and maybe youll work for me one day...btw rent is the saamae in brooklyn, queens
what are you talking about 9:38? lived at home? mom and dad? maybe you live in a dream world where everyone has a family that supports them but at 16 I was on my own...this job made all of that worthwhile and now it is gone...but ill start again and maybe youll work for me one day...btw rent is the saamae in brooklyn, queens
I give the office of the chair kudos in that, compared with what I was told when laid off, they were honest in reporting why this happened.
But this doesn't change the fact that I'm absolutely livid -- as were my attorneys. I was given no warning. They were given no warning -- nor were they even *consulted* -- and they're absolutely furious.
Who knows what goes on behind the scenes? I surely don't. Not knowing doesn't take away my right to be furious.
3/23 @ 7:42, you have no idea what you're talking about. Senior associates WERE laid off. And those associates are FAR more profitable to a law firm than the newbies who cost more than they bring in. It takes new associates about 3 years to start making money for a law firm, by which time most of them head off elsewhere anyway. The senior associates, even when they're not that busy, pay for themselves much sooner. And, very often they do partner-level work at lower rates, which makes them more attractive to clients.
No two ways about it, the layoffs were unfortunate for everyone. But let's not pretend that the axe only fell on those most junior. It's just not true.
3/27 @ 1:45
We miss you
Yes, this incoming associate is looking for another job. We would be stupid to not do so, and I'm convinced we're being treated this way so that we WILL go look for another job so they don't get the reputational hit for firing us before we even get there.
4:06, do you worry though about word getting around that you are looking for another job, and thus your offer getting rescinded based on that?
also what do you mean by "being treated this way"?
New colleague and new friends will leave, Sad day. Good luck guys.
why should the associates worry about their offers being rescinded? on what grounds would they rescind the offers? on the "the economy took a hit and we cant live up to the employment contract that you signed with us? i know there is no such thing as guaranteed employment in the US, shouldn't the associates be looking for other jobs? if there is no loyalty on the part of The;en, how can anyone expect loyalty on the part of the incoming associates? Thelen is not exactly a stable employment option right now for anyone and i wouldn't be surprised if current associates are looking for jobs.. also, the last time I checked the firm could fire you for any reason (absent discrimination), so aren't you always supposed to keep your options open? I think Thelen would look worse if it rescinded offers to associates who were looking for jobs.. It would be assanine to think that Thelen hasnt considered that is already happening...
So, now that bonuses are paid, I wonder how many associates are going to give their notice. I was told by at least one HH that she had associates waiting to give notice until after today.
That would add insult to injury -- to fire incoming associates because they had the good sense to consider alternatives to the shaky offer they got from Thelen.
But according to my understanding of the Thelen administration, that is what they can expect.
Typical: you are to be slavishly loyal to the firm, that will cut you loose at the slightest provocation.
Hahahaha....if Thelen had a competent administration, it wouldn't be in the predicament. Thelen's administration looks like the Bush administration right now...
Thelen blows. Your an idiot if you work there. Or have no life. Most likely both.
Thelen Reid is a disgusting politically-motivated company that is run by narcissitic sycophants. I had the misfortune of working there for three years.
99% of those attorneys are poster children for why people hate lawyers. They live in an unreal bubble, abuse their staff, favor the most despicable brown-nosers, and send out memos informing everyone of benefit cuts right after they post record profits.
There's only one value placed on ANYONE in this company, and one alone -- money. All companies need to make money, even profit, but a money-maker at Thelen Reid can mentally and physically abuse their staff with no repercussions. Yes, physical abuse -- I went to a partner's office provide assistance and he threw a potted plant at me.
If incoming associates are being fired, I assure you that this is the best thing that can happen to your career.
Friday, April 4, 2008 12:44 PM
Hahahaha....if Thelen had a competent administration, it wouldn't be in the predicament. Thelen's administration looks like the Bush administration right now...
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It's interesting that you say that -- Thelen Reid has always been in the pocket of the Bush Administration.
There's nary an attorney there who cannot be bribed, bought or corrupted to serve the agendas of the George W. Bush administration.
#274 must be on drugs or something worse if he thinks Thelen "is in the pocket of the Bush Administration." That's some powerful kool-aid, and you are dead wrong.
Thelen is one of the more liberal, "progressive" law firms in San Francisco which means they are riddled with petty jealousies, hatred, and contempt for anyone "not like them." They're a poster child for what's wrong with the "Tolerance and Diversity" crowd. (See comment #113)
And, talk about Bush Derangement Syndrome: Thelen names its printers starting with with a different letter for each floor, and where I was my default printer was named "Bush." I always marvelled at how people would come by and beat, kick, scratch, and jam this machine just because of the name. Sadly, I quickly learned that abusing inanimate objects is nothing compared to how they abuse the people working there.
And God help you if they get the notion that you're not 110% "true blue" SF liberal.