I'm just glad these V5 firms all scheduled 5 days of interviews EACH at Touro.

Boring....no one cares except people employed by V5 firms. And by people, I mean NERDS!

If you are an HYS grad, go to Skadden. There are fewer of us around there and so we are appreciated more.

General "prestige" of law firms means nothing unless you're trying to leave your firm.

-- Harvard AB, AM, MD, JD, LLM, SJD, PhD, MPH, MBA

Davis Polk if you like working with hotties:

http://www.observer.com/2007/polish-those-portfolios-legal-eaglets-seek-their-nests

people employed at these 5 firms don't have time for ATL and are not concerned about lay-offs.

I can't stop laughing at the "we are appreciated more" comment

Last year's open threads were good, but there weren't nearly as many law students reading ATL then. Who knows how it will turn out this time?

Wachtell over Cravath. You work just as hard but make twice the money.

#6--we all know there are no hotties in the northeast. closest you get to "hotties" in NYC are the olsen twins.

ATL is really starting to suck. Can't you come up with anything new, Lat? Why don't we post the same comments as last year as well...

Ladies, don't you want to know what I do?

No, not really.

Well, I work in midtown -- at a firm called [insert V5 firm].

personally, i'd really like to hear a CSM employee explain to me the advantage of going to CSM over Wachtell... neither are in the cards for me (I'm perfectly happy with my lowly Vault20 firm) but I just cant understand why anyone would choose to work for half as much pay at CSM as they would at Wachtell....

14-- what about for litigation? Would you still try for Wachtell over Cravath for lit?

15: I know a litigator at Wachtell who happily picked it over Cravath. I don't think it matters in the long run.

I don't work for Cravath and so am not sure about their bonuses, but often prestigious litigation boutiques will provide the same base as Biglaw, while also providing huge bonuses. So, if you want to do litigation, don't mind working all the time, and want to make as much money as possible, that's a thought.

I guess Cravath litigation has a better reputation and generally ranks higher than Wachtell litigation. But Wachtell litigation is still very good. Bonuses are the same for Wachtell corporate and litigation associates -- 100% of salary. Cravath bonuses are much less. Exit options are probably equally good from both.

What about hours? Do wachtell litigation associates work a little less than wachtell corporate associates? About the same amount as Cravath litigators or way more?

18: your point? Kirkland litigation is as highly ranked as either. You want to go where you make money.

maybe hotties in NY office of DPW, but none in Menlo Park office

Past the V20, these should be 10 firms at a time.

is there any chance al gore would accept vp from obama? that's the one choice that would automatically shore up the election for the democrats

Based on Avery and hearsay, Wachtell associates work harder, billing about 200 hours more a year. Also, Wachtell doesn't quite pay "double", especially when you factor in that Cravath (and now other NY-Vault firms pay a special bonus). All that being said, given the choice between CSM and Wachtell, pick Wachtell.

I don't see why CSM is actually catching up to Wachtell. CSM just got a lot less selective this past year, hiring 161 summers, almost double their traditional class size.

I wouldn't expect Wachtell to pay 100% bonuses this year. They only paid 100% for the past 2-3 years when there was really high deal volume.

At Cravath, there are weeks where you don't have to spend 90 hours in the office.

Kirkland should be in the V5 instead of Skadden, and would be if Vault wasn't so NYC-centric.

So, I was fellating myself while listening to Rush Limbaugh just now and I heard a funny joke. Roni Deutch is now hawking a get-rich-quick scheme. Wait, that's not a joke--I seriously just heard an ad for her get-rich-quick scheme.

/Screw V5, let's talk about her commence.
//I'll get it started: Q: What eats more pussy than cervical cancer? A: Roni Deutch, of course!

Comparing DPW v. Sullivan
So are the reports of Davis being a nice place (with hot associates) to work just propaganda or is it at least somewhat true? And for Sullivan, are the sweatshop rumors also true? Is one more prestigious, either in law students minds or the legal community, or doing that much better than the other? Would you take either one over Cravath?

Am i imagining things, or does anyone else remember when this site used to be entertaining?

28: with regard to your last question, I suppose it depends on your affinity for bedbugs. Personally, I can't get enough of the little bastards.

-Evan C.

27: What's the difference between a Ritz and Roni Deutch? One's a snack cracker and the other one's a crack snacker.

What rank out of Chicago for V5?

32: Jing?

33: Sup?

who cares about prestige???? they all pay the same salary and bonus (except wachtell) so why go to a firm that will kill you. i tjurned down several top 10 firms and chose a top 20 firm insteadcthat had a reputation for being more laid back. best decision i ever made. sucks for my friends who i talk to that have to bill 200-240 hours a month on a constant basis. i've topped out at 190 once this year. steady 160 or so the rest of the year. holllllla.

prestige only matters to the type-A over-achieving gunner crowd. i pity them.

"prestige only matters to the type-A over-achieving gunner crowd" - It's more than prestige dumbass. It's quality of work, quality of the people you work with (smarter, more serious about their job, etc...), and exit opportunities. People don't go to Harvard because it "prestiguous" but because they know if they go there, they will (probably) have more opportunities. Most Biglaw associates aren't going to make partner, so its better to pick a firm where you have a future rather than Shitstain & Shitstain.

That said, I don't know anything about the top Vault firms, I just get annoyed by people who put others down because they work hard. I personaly, would rather work somewhere where I bill 2800 hours a year but I like it rather than billing 2200 hours and being miserable.

@32-34: that's cold

@32: if you include Skadden top 80%, if not top 20% is probably enough for everyone but Wachtell.

There's a good chance this will quickly dissolve into whining and name-calling, but what the hell...

I'm a T14-er law review type interviewing with DPW and SASMF this fall in OCI. My pitch is that I want to work as a litigator at one of the most competitive full-service firms in the world. And yes, Skadden and Davis are TTT, etc., etc., etc., but I'm not realistically Wachtell, or Cravath material. What can I expect from each? Is Skadden really the hellhole it's rumored to be, complete with small men in dark shrouds using the Dark Side of the force? Is Davis an older firm trying to regain some past prestige, but essentially past its prime? Are the two simply generic renditions of the BigLaw associate factories that will pay well, chew you up and spit you out, and make sure PPP remains high by limiting the denominator variable?

Any insightful comments or insults would be great.

36- thats the dumbest comment ive ever heard. i hope you're a 1L or something.

Do you think the quality of work and intelligence of colleagues is THAT different between firms in the top 20? they all recruit the same people. and biglaw work is the basically the same among the top firms.

"id rather bill 2800 and i like it..." i mean that's just mind boggling. personally id rather like my job and get to leave the office once in awhile, but thats just me.

17 - Litigation boutique requires actual talent.

Lockstep is more appealing to most.

35, are you really saying "who cares about prestige" and then adding that you work at a top 20 firm? There's really not much difference in quality of work and colleagues between firms 2-20. Lower down the ranks is another story.

38 - You're not going to get either job so don't worry about it.

36 is a 1L gunner.

Quality of work i.e. "bet the company" litigation sucks for associates. The more novel, unusual, and high-stakes a matter is, the more they aren't going to let fungible associates anywhere near anything other than a document box.

Remember Michael Clayton with the junior associates running around finding documents, taking dictation in traffic and taking a deposition in a snowstorm in Milwaukee on the "bet the company" U/North litigation?

Yeah, that's you.

And "bill 2800 hours and like it" - no such thing, my friend. Unless you are a masochist or a monk.

You know, 2200 is unreasonable and social-life-killing in and of itself. To bill that (without lying) you can't have time for friends who do not a) live with you, or b) work with you. You sure as hell better like the people you work with. People who talk about prestige in reference to firms or quality in reference to their peers are inherently unlikeable.

#42, that's not an insightful insult... surely you can do better.

Skadden = TTT

"To bill that (without lying)"

I thought we were lawyers?

Would it be too flashy to wear a silver tie clip during an OCI interview? You know, the simple, silver bar type of tie clip?

2800 hours, huh? Hope you are a law student. I don't know anyone who "likes" that. Your basically talking about accounting for 3000 -3100 hours over the course of a year. That's entire weekends being consumed on a regular basis.

Has anybody else (outside of the Pacific Northwest) seen the Dino Rossi for Governor ad on the right side of the screen, or is that just region specific?

V5 = TTT

48, there is a whole other section of this blog devoted to just that type of question:

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/08/on_campus_interview_suits.php#comments

My opinion: If you're worried that it will be too flashy, then it probably is too flashy.

i like turtles.

If you are interviewing with someone who will ding you for a tie clip or a flashy tie, then you should be happy not to have to go work with such bureaucratic fascists.

One year at Cravath = four years anywhere else. Potential employees value associates who leave Cravath because they have so much more experience under their belts, not because they are more prestigious.

I am a 2L with some call backs at V50 firms - what are the chances I'll get an offer?

Is it okay to wear the same tie to the call back as the OCI screen?

If they order drinks at lunch, should I get one too?

56-

I should warn you that the firm frowns upon drinking at lunch.

56,

your offer chances are (# callbacks)/[(school ranking)*(class ranking)] * (1/(level of douchbaggery of your personality) + pi*(prestige bump if you're on LRev) + pi*(0.525)*(prestige bump of secondary journals or moot court) * In(geographic connections). Apply a normalization function to the result, and you'll know your chances

DPW and S&C do very similar work. DPW has a stronger underwriters' practice, Sullivan is marginally better on the issuer side. DPW is much stronger than anyone at converts. Sullivan does more edgy contested M&A while DPW excels at deals with cutting edge securities components.

Sullivan is a slightly better place to work than it's reputation. DPW generally lives up to it's strong rep as a good place to work.

Either one is a fantastic place to start a career.

DPW and S&C are fantastic places to begin a career? Wow, what an insight. Too bad you missed the ATL Idol competition.

2L with cravath callback scheduled-what to expect? any tips?

56, if one of the attorneys orders a drink at lunch I think you should one up them and order a shot. This is a hypercompetitive field we're entering and you don't want to look like a pussy. : )

This site is great; post 59 is a generally helpful and thoughtful piece on what type of work two great firms do. This is helpful to students looking for this type of work. Instantly the post is followed by a total d-bag (60) who tears him apart for answering what the blog post is partially about. Note to 60, the insight is earlier in the post where the two firms are juxtaposed on the kind of work they handle.

63 - 59's post is tantamount to filing a good motion and ending it with, "I really want to win this thing." Ending with an empty, useless statement ruins the rest.

i enjoy the company of shelled reptiles.

Skadden owns all other firms. Get you a big jug of the fiery red kool aid.

Yeah seriously, send all the HYS students to Skadden. Who on earth would want to work for a firm of contentious ass-hats that yell at you all day. Unless you're a promotable minority male looking to boink some first years when you make partner eight years down the line, forget it.

Any significant exit options coming from a v5-10 rather than a v3-5?

56 -

Listen to 62...I'd even go so far as to challenge them by claiming you can drink 'em under the table. By demonstrating this competitive mentality and confidence you will surely stand out from the rest of the pack. And if you REALLY wanna stand out, wear a bow tie and suspenders to the callback...show 'em you dont fuck around

68 here, I meant to write significant difference in exit options.

68 - No...you will not have ANY opportunities if you go to a firm outside of the V5. In fact, if you dont get a V5 firm you might as well drop out of law school now and save yourself the time and money...

my name is william, and i like to wear dresses

my name is william, and i like to wear dresses

Skadden is not on par with the rest of the "T5" in terms of the work opportunities given to junior associates. Might be a decent place to be a junior or senior associate, when you're not part of a horde of people doing doc review or diligence.

Cravath and Davis Polk are great firms. Its a choice between marginally greater presitge (Cravath) and better quality of life (DPW). You will get great work and meet fabulous people at either of these firms.

Sullivan does great work, but the quality of life is reputed to suck, although it seems like they are working hard to change that. It's stuck between Cravath and DPW in that it's less prestigious than Cravath, so the prestige whores go to Cravath, and the people wanting a better lifestyle go to DPW.

Wachtell is definitely more prestigious than Cravath, although they are trying to grow their firm size and have gotten slightly less selective (at least over the last two years).

And for the trolls out there-- I did have offers at most of these firms.

@74: "I did have offers at most of these firms."
Good for fucking you. That totally makes me want to suck your cock now.

@75: no, let ME suck his cock!

I've also heard that DPW is more attractive. I personally think it's pathetic to work at a law firm because the people are attractive, but there you have it.
Agree with douchebag #74 that Skadden isn't that impressive; I don't know why it's so high on the lists.
Wachtell will ask you math problems and brain teasers during your OCI.
And all of these places seem pretty miserable to work for.

24 - Wachtell has paid 100 percent bonuses for at least the past four years.

78 (or anyone else who cares to opine) - would you expect Wachtell to continue to pay 100% bonuses this year?

38 - DPW is just about as difficult an offer to obtain as Cravath...if anything, possibly a bit stiffer as they review personality and hire many fewer summers.

Plenty of people choose Skadden over other firms on this list, provided they have offers at both. I received offers from all firms on this list to which I applied.
Plenty of people who choose other firms and were dinged by Skadden post on message boards about how Skadden isn't "selective", as amply evidenced above. Dear such trolls, this means that you were dinged by a firm you deem unselective, and are thus a TTT. XOXO, HTH.

Looks like I'm a bit late on this subject, but a couple of fundamental differences were not mentioned in the earlier comments. Ignoring Skadden (because it shouldn't be mentioned with the other four firms), here's a quick scoop for law students getting ready for OCI:
In terms of contrasting WLRK and CSM, there are huge differences other than bonuses and exit opportunities. Namely, the difference between the "Cravath" system and WLRK's small size. Also, in terms of culture, CSM is much more of a "white-shoe," old-school environment whereas WLRK is a much more dynamic place to work, with young attorneys working on a smaller team and therefore taking on more responsibility. Also, of these four firms, CSM has the weakest corporate practice (but the strongest lit practice).

S&C and DPW are remarkably similar in all aspects (quality of life, personalities, etc.), with the difference being specialities in certain corporate practice areas -- S&C being superior in M&A, banking, and real estate and DPW in securities and lending work.

In terms of hiring selectivity, WLRK most difficult, followed by DPW with S&C and CSM behind the other two and with pretty similar requirements (although by the size of last year's summer class, it looks like CSM may be getting a bit less particular).

All the Skadden-haters are just jealous because they don't have the man, the myth, the legend, Joe Flom.

That and they failed to see how Skadden owned every other firm in all the practice area rankings...

CSM is more prestigious than WLRK. It also has more of a history than WLRK. WLRK also has a weaker litigation practice than CSM.
The Cravath System is also a superior system, in terms of getting work assignments.

83, oh we've seen the practice area rankings, but it isn't enough to get past Skadden's TTT unselective image.

When you're comparing firms, be sure to compare corporate versus corporate and litigation versus litigation (depending on what you want to do). For example, S&C Corporate thinks of itself as better or comparable to anyone on the list, but even within the firm the litigation practice is seen as weaker. Doing this could help you identify great firms in NYC for litigation that Vault doesn't rank as highly for whatever reason (e.g., Gibson Dunn).

The Cravath summers seem to have pretty good experiences; more substantive than most. But all of us are jealous of folks at Wachtell. They are the big swinging dicks at every NYC event where there are summers gathered from different firms, no question. Never let anyone tell you that people are consistently choosing Cravath over Wachtell.

But these are all just opinions so go with your gut; most summer associates seem pretty happy, or seem as if they'd be unhappy anywhere.

ps, Paul Weiss seems to have excellent litigation. Law students are attracted to DPW because (they think) it has both good litigation and good corporate. Lots of smart people from HYS summer at Skadden NYC or DC; although it has a reputation among 2L's for being a sweatshop, at the end of 2L a lot of people end up there and seem to really enjoy their summers.

Skadden has a ton of empty interviewing spots at my T14. I think people are being persuaded by the Skadden-esque "sweatshop" reputation to seek vault-whatever firms with better quality of life or prestigious boutiques with a lot more flexibility or early partnership.

Cravath = TTT

Sure, Skadden is a sweatshop. But at least they admit it (unlike all other big firms...)

I'm not sure that WLRK has smaller teams than Cravath. It can't get too much smaller than two juniors, maybe a mid-level, and one senior per partner.

And #42 is dead wrong. Junior associates do real work for important litigation at Cravath all the time. I assume the same is true at other top firms, except for Skadden, which is so huge that they might be able to staff that way.

Hey, potentially slightly off-topic, but does anybody know whether firms make call back invitations in waves or whether it's an all-at-once sort of thing. If (after one day) a friend of mine has a callback, does that mean I don't?

Hey, potentially slightly off-topic, but does anybody know whether firms make call back invitations in waves or whether it's an all-at-once sort of thing. If (after one day) a friend of mine has a callback, does that mean I don't?

I can't choice between Davis Polk & Wardwell or White & Case.
Between these two which one has the best office out of curiosity and also salary differences?
This is not my criteria for finding which suits me but it was just for fun, if it comes down to this point I would have chosen the best office. LOL

Do any of the V5 ever have time to talk among themselves (associates) besides lunch time?
Ex: go to a bar or even go watch a game together. I know you are not there to socialize but what about after work?

93, it doesn't mean for sure that you don't, but it's a very good sign.

It's amazing that the law school lore is perpetuated year after year. Not to seem like a firm basher, b/c all T5 firms are fantastic, but IMHO:

1) DPW is NOT a "lifestyle firm." Sure, they don't work exactly the same hours as others, but if that were the case then CSM would be a lifestyle firm compared to WLRK.

2) WLRK doesn't run the smallest teams consistently. Even SASMF will have smaller teams in different areas. Think about it. You can also have 40 people in a group, but only 3 (1 partner, 1 mid level associate, and 1 junior associate) staffed on a particular deal.

Don't believe the hype re DPW associates being overrun by hotties. Puh-lease!

Don't get me wrong, it's a great firm, as far as big NY firms go, but anybody who goes there thinking that you're going to be cozying up to would-be Ford/Elite models is on crack.

I should know: I worked there as an associate right out of law school and stuck it out for a few years before jumping ship.

Yes, when I applied I heard the rumors about the hot women there. Those were quickly dispelled when I received my copy of the firm-wide associate directory (with pictures). The associates are what you'd think they are: a wide assortment of people from different schools and of different backgrounds. Some relatively attractive, and some you wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole. In general, it's a friendly place, as well as a fairly bland place. Case in point: the Annual Xmas party generally takes place in the DPW Cafeteria.

So, if you want to go to do good work and to be around (semi-)interesting people, go for it. But stop deluding yourself into thinking it's a f*cking Victoria's Secret Fashion Show.

My fucking Skadden guy was watching TV during my interview. I know I don't have big, pillowy tits, but I'm still more interesting than a damn stock ticker.

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